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Not sure if anyone is still monitoring this, but I'm currently reading responses from the Bad Things shipping survey I hosted a couple weeks ago.
I heard from some of you that you're excited for the results, so I wanted to say that I haven't forgotten about the project and am still working on it! :)
First of all, thank you to everyone who participated in the survey. The total amount of responses came out to over 100, which was my goal! Hooray!
As for what's next, here's what I plan to do in the coming weeks:
Read everyone's responses
Contact participants who I have additional questions for
Come to conclusions about the data
Make graphs and stuff
Write the final post
This process may be slow... my friend started dragging me to the dark side (read: getting me interested in Forsaken), so Bad Things hasn't been taking up as much of my mental bandwidth as usual. Even with my waning interest, I will try to deliver something interesting and informative!
do you like clicking buttons? do you want to feel included? are you afraid the world will forget you one day? If any of this does or doesn't apply to you, you're in luck — because I'M hosting a survey!
Here's what's going on: I am planning to write a big long Tumblr post about the general fandom attitude towards Ivandrew shipping — why people ship it, how many people ship it, how bad it really is, and if we still deserve to have nice things!
Love it or hate it, I wanna hear what you think.
You can take my survey if you:
1.) are over the age of 12
2.) like Bad Things
thats how low the bar is. you dont even need to have played the game
Even if you have no opinions about shipping, you should fill out the form. it'll be fun i promise. theres a treat at the end! who doesn't like a treat at the end?
send this to all your badthings obsessed friends even the ones who dont have tumblr. i actually dont care
be honest, and please dont submit the form multiple times if you can help it
TAKE MY SURVEY. GIVE ME DATA: via Google Forms
this will be open until im satisfied with the amount of responses. go wild
[Notice: the survey has ended. This post remains for archival reasons.]
@ ALL Bad Things enjoyers
do you like clicking buttons? do you want to feel included? are you afraid the world will forget you one day? If any of this does or doesn't apply to you, you're in luck — because I'M hosting a survey!
Here's what's going on: I am planning to write a big long Tumblr post about the general fandom attitude towards Ivandrew shipping — why people ship it, how many people ship it, how bad it really is, and if we still deserve to have nice things!
Love it or hate it, I wanna hear what you think.
You can take my survey if you:
1.) are over the age of 12
2.) like Bad Things
thats how low the bar is. you dont even need to have played the game
Even if you have no opinions about shipping, you should fill out the form. it'll be fun i promise. theres a treat at the end! who doesn't like a treat at the end?
send this to all your badthings obsessed friends even the ones who dont have tumblr. i actually dont care
be honest, and please dont submit the form multiple times if you can help it
TAKE MY SURVEY. GIVE ME DATA: via Google Forms
this form will be open until Sunday, May 10th at 8pm EST. go wild
I'm thinking about developing a Bad Things entry for my roblox psych horror x asym concept (which isn't an actual game idea, I just wanted to make music and have fun with concept art.) I'm kind of unsure about which characters to include.
The obvious choice is Ivan as a killer and Andrew as a survivor, but I'm hesitant to go through with that idea because I feel like it would be in bad taste. Like, is it respectful to the source material for the abuser to chase his victim around with an axe, PVP-style? I don't think so.
SO. I'd like a second opinion on this because I can't seem to settle on an idea. Below the keep reading marker are some pros and cons I've considered
What Bad Things characters should be in the AU
IVAN is the killer, IVAN'S MOM is the survivor
IVAN'S FATHER is the killer, IVAN is the survivor
you're a coward just add Andrew
Voting ended onApr 30
Pros and cons:
Killer Ivan, Survivor Mom
Pros
I already have a moveset in mind for Ivan. I know what type of killer he should be, I know why he would do it, stuff like that
Ivan's mom has the potential to be cool. like come on. strong female character
yummy family separation angst
Cons
Ivan's mom is kind of a blank slate. While I vaguely know her personality, I don't know what her role would be as a survivor
I already started composing a theme for Ivan and found that his complex personality was difficult to portray through music. I'm willing to try again but opening that project scares me lowkey
Killer Dad, Survivor Ivan
Pros
this dynamic slots in nicely with Bad Things canon. Ivan's father represents everything Ivan is afraid of (failure, inadequacy, being forgotten) which makes him perfect for a killer
Ivan's dad carries musical associations that could be applied to a chase theme: church bells, fire alarms, police sirens, organ music perhaps? And I could still have Ivan's Song in there because Ivan's dad and Ivan's personal goals (make a name for yourself) are directly linked
Cons
no idea what either of their movesets would look like
I'm on the fence about Ivan being a survivor because his personality makes him more likely to hurt his teammates than help them
You're a coward
Pros
Everyone likes Andrew
it would be fun if he could punch the killer like really hard
Ivan vs. Andrew LMS. getting to use motifs from Ivan's Song and Made by Andrew in the same track is like jingling keys over my head
Cons
He doesn't deserve to have to fight for his life again. It would be cruel of me to put him here
I'm thinking about developing a Bad Things entry for my roblox psych horror x asym concept (which isn't an actual game idea, I just wanted to make music and have fun with concept art.) I'm kind of unsure about which characters to include.
The obvious choice is Ivan as a killer and Andrew as a survivor, but I'm hesitant to go through with that idea because I feel like it would be in bad taste. Like, is it respectful to the source material for the abuser to chase his victim around with an axe, PVP-style? I don't think so.
SO. I'd like a second opinion on this because I can't seem to settle on an idea. Below the keep reading marker are some pros and cons I've considered
What Bad Things characters should be in the AU
IVAN is the killer, IVAN'S MOM is the survivor
IVAN'S FATHER is the killer, IVAN is the survivor
you're a coward just add Andrew
Voting ended onApr 30
Pros and cons:
Killer Ivan, Survivor Mom
Pros
I already have a moveset in mind for Ivan. I know what type of killer he should be, I know why he would do it, stuff like that
Ivan's mom has the potential to be cool. like come on. strong female character
yummy family separation angst
Cons
Ivan's mom is kind of a blank slate. While I vaguely know her personality, I don't know what her role would be as a survivor
I already started composing a theme for Ivan and found that his complex personality was difficult to portray through music. I'm willing to try again but opening that project scares me lowkey
Killer Dad, Survivor Ivan
Pros
this dynamic slots in nicely with Bad Things canon. Ivan's father represents everything Ivan is afraid of (failure, inadequacy, being forgotten) which makes him perfect for a killer
Ivan's dad carries musical associations that could be applied to a chase theme: church bells, fire alarms, police sirens, organ music perhaps? And I could still have Ivan's Song in there because Ivan's dad and Ivan's personal goals (make a name for yourself) are directly linked
Cons
no idea what either of their movesets would look like
I'm on the fence about Ivan being a survivor because his personality makes him more likely to hurt his teammates than help them
You're a coward
Pros
Everyone likes Andrew
it would be fun if he could punch the killer like really hard
Ivan vs. Andrew LMS. getting to use motifs from Ivan's Song and Made by Andrew in the same track is like jingling keys over my head
Cons
He doesn't deserve to have to fight for his life again. It would be cruel of me to put him here
So, I had this thought: "what if I put Roblox psychological horror characters in an asymmetrical horror setting?" and my first instinct was "no that's a horrible idea." And it kind of is! I don't think this should actually be a game or anything. But I was interested in the music of Forsaken and Dead by Daylight and wanted to compose some character-inspired tunes, so that's why I'm here.
My musical vision for Dex was something energetic, yet violent. He's a trapper who specializes in getting survivors exactly where he needs them. Collect his pages invitations!
In light of my recent discussion about Ivan's canon personality, I think it'd be fun to share some stuff from my brain!!
Ivan
Andrew is— was his only friend
Ivan's a total shut-in. He spends most of his days inside, watching TV or talking to Andrew online (which he obviously can't do anymore but yknow)
He's got a crook in his neck and dog shit posture, probably from looking at screens. He's totally aware of this but does nothing to change it
His diet is also terrible. He's no chef and is quite lazy. Since he's miserable, it's easy for him to reach for sodas and sweet treats
Ivan's closet is full of sweaters. Yes, they're all blue
UNSKILLED. No hobbies no job no friends no future. He's insecure about not having these things, but doesn't do anything to change his situation. It's like he just... decided he's doomed to be a nobody, even though he never tried not to be. And then he feels sorry about it!
He hates being confronted on the fact that his misery is his own fault, which is why Andrew couldn't help him out of it. This should sound really familiar if you've read the analysis :)
He's bad at lying and will usually go silent or change the subject when he doesn't want to tell the truth
Ivan grew up with most of the adults in his life telling him he's a good writer, so he thinks it's the only thing he's good at
Ivan has a complicated relationship with his mom. He doesn't really like her lmao. She calls often, but he never picks up. This has been going on for years
(Note: this is canon in the Bad Pizza AU!)
Planchette pendant — a gift he received from a friend of the family at his dad's funeral. Tbh this is mostly a design element to replace the ouija board pattern on his shirt since I didnt want to draw allat. He keeps this necklace tucked beneath his sweater and doesn't really acknowledge its existence. Part of him believes it lets him speak to the spirit of his father... but another part of him knows that's nonsense.
Ivan is 5 feet and 11 inches tall. One inch short of that gold standard. Just another reminder of how inadequate he is
Andrew
Andrew is very claustrophobic. He hates small and enclosed spaces, especially those that are man-made. Cave diving would probably stress him out less than being inside a closet
Andrew is uncomfortable with being touched. Always ask first. Ivan doesn't do this and scares the shit out of him with unexpected contact
He grew up with body image issues, so he wore a lot of baggy clothes to cover up. His self confidence is something he's been working on, but the clothes stay... they're just comfortable
He's very perceptive. On top of being good at reading people's emotions, he has an acute sense of hearing. The sound of a lock clicking or the floor squeaking is enough to make him raise his head like a hound
Andrew picks at his skin and doesn't realize it. It's a bad habit. He also has trouble keeping his hands off of injuries, always rubbing bruises and picking scabs. Ivan used to stop him when he noticed Andrew doing this, but he doesn't acknowledge it anymore
Andrew is multi-talented. He has to be, if he's making his games solo. He codes, he draws, he writes, he 3D models, he composes. He's not the best at everything but he is certainly a jack-of-all-trades
He values being able to cook for himself. He's pretty adverse to treats and likes eating healthy foods. For him, the ability to have control over when and what he eats is empowering.
Andrew is 5'6. He was a short kid in high school and used to get bullied for it, but he doesn't care about his height anymore
Misc
Ivan and Andrew met online as adults. By the time the story begins, they had met in person a few times — but they'd never seen each other for multiple days at a time. For me this explains why they know each other but also kinda don't. People are also more filtered online, so Ivan had a lot of time to mask his true colors
Though they bonded over Roblox games, Ivan isn't much of a gamer. He'd usually tag along with Andrew and play absolutely horribly. Which was embarrassing! But you know what. It's fine. Because they're hanging out. That's what he's here for. Ivan's especially bad at obbies btw
A Long and Tiring Analysis of Ivan From Bad Things
okay. basically, I've been thinking about this guy for roughly 6 months now and I LOVE talking about him. I've seen some disappointing interpretations of the Bad Things characters, so as someone who strongly related to Ivan I thought it'd be beneficial to share my understanding. I'm gonna dissect the story scene-by-scene and point out everything I noticed. I hope you're ready for a long read, and I hope you learn something! :)
TL;DR: insecurity is the foundation of Ivan's personality. His biggest fear is that he will end up like his father — alone and with nothing of value to be remembered by. He is jealous of Andrew, who he believes to be successful, and treats him poorly in an attempt to resolve his feelings of inadequacy.
DISCLAIMER: I am going to speak on Ivan's character motivations in this post. This is not an attempt to defend his behavior. Having a reason to do something doesn't automatically make it okay.
Andrew is a victim. He did nothing wrong.
⚠This post contains discussion of abuse and suicide⚠
Word count: 5,092
The first and most important thing to understand about Ivan is that he is a person with very low self-esteem. This is evident as early as Scene 2 (Friends), when Andrew lightheartedly says that Ivan's apartment "isn't the most lively." Though Ivan's initial reaction is lukewarm, it's implied over the next few scenes that he's been thinking about that comment a lot.
He brings it up in Scene 4 (Cleaver):
"No wonder you called my apartment pathetic and gray. I never noticed the palace you live in!"
And again in Scene 6 (Rooftop):
“[The rooftop] isn’t too bad of a view. Better than I was expecting. Being in the center of a city and all.”
“Yeah. Really makes the place a bit more lively.”
The way Ivan 1.) twists Andrew's words ("pathetic and gray") and 2.) brings up the incident in a sarcastic way suggests that Ivan understood the comment very differently from how Andrew intended.
A more confident person would probably have taken it as a silly jab at the apartment and nothing more. Ivan, however, takes it as a direct attack on his character. "Pathetic" and "gray" aren't Andrew's words — they're his, implying he already thinks these things about himself. And since Ivan believes he is those things, and Andrew CLEARLY agrees (he did not say that), this means he's a failure! Andrew must think he's better than him — I mean, he lives in a palace! Comparatively.
The second thing we learn early on is that Ivan is bad at respecting boundaries. In Scene 2, despite a previous statement that Andrew "works alone," Ivan gifts Andrew a "remade script for his game." Andrew predictably rejects it, and in the following dialogue Andrew points out that Ivan looks disappointed. Okay. So, Ivan's a little pushy. He knew Andrew wouldn't want his help and still tried. What's the big deal? Well, this interaction comes back to bite them in Scene 4, when it's revealed that Andrew threw the script away. Ivan, who knows about Andrew's troubled living situation, uses this as an opportunity to appeal to Andrew's emotions:
"It's not healthy living like this. You *need* someone to lean on."
Though this can be interpreted as genuine care for Andrew (and I choose to believe he cares about his friend at least a little bit), it is undeniable that it also helps Ivan get what he wants: influence over the writing in Andrew's game. He ends the conversation by suggesting they "discuss the script rewrite," meaning he's still pushing his writing on Andrew despite being told no already.
So, Ivan really cares about being part of Andrew's creative project. Why is that?
> Scene 6: Rooftop
In an earlier paragraph I brought up this scene prematurely, and for good reason. The rooftop conversation reveals a lot about both Ivan and Andrew.
Before we get to the roof, there's a couple things I wanna point out:
Ivan goes through Andrew's stuff without permission — more evidence of him disregarding boundaries (if you couldn't find the red flags in scenes 2 and 4, this should be the first obvious one)
Ivan makes this comment about one of Andrew's belongings, a plastic trophy that reads "Best Art Direction"
“He was in this game jam, competition, whatever. He was aiming for the best game overall. Getting this instead? It stung."
[…]
"[It's] just old trash he forgot to clean out. I’ll do it for him.”
In these lines, Ivan insinuates that Andrew "won" yet it still wasn't good enough. This makes me think that Ivan holds others — and himself, by extension — to high standards. To be good enough is to win the best prize, not just a prize. Put a pin in that. Also, can you catch him crossing boundaries in this dialogue? This is the third time.
Anyway, the friends move to the rooftop and Ivan bugs Andrew about game development some more. When he shows concern for Andrew "pushing himself," Andrew tells Ivan that gamedev doesn't exhaust him because it's something he loves. He uses it as an outlet, and that outlet helped him cut down on the feelings of worthlessness he'd grown up with.
“I still hated school and had bad grades, but over time, I started putting effort into things I previously couldn’t care less about.”
"Heartwarming."
You might remember that Ivan lacks self-worth. Andrew, through his games, has found a way to recover from a feeling that Ivan struggles with. Not only that, Andrew's games are good enough to garner positive feedback, so... Andrew is successful, isn't he?
The most damning part of the conversation comes around when Ivan starts talking about his father. The way Ivan recounts his experience lacks the sadness one might expect from someone who lost a parent. Instead, he's... disappointed? Check out these lines:
“There were maybe 8 or 9 people. Total. Now, I know he kept to himself, but that’s ridiculous, right?”
He seems to disapprove of the fact that his father didn't leave much behind. That there weren't a lot of people who cared. That his corpse was nothing but a charred smear in the casket. This brings me back to the start of the conversation, when Andrew showed concern for Ivan (after another "lively" comment) and Ivan insisted nothing was wrong. It's pretty contradictory to say you're "not going through anything" and then waffle on about your upsetting funeral experience, right? This, combined with the trophy dialogue, shows a third trait of Ivan's personality: he values success, and he values winning. Therefore, he bottles up his feelings to look successful — and like a winner. He doesn't want people to know he has flaws. Whiiiiiiich is a result of his insecurity! Look how we've come full circle. If you put a pin in "high standards" you can take it out now. Big thanks if you've read this far, by the way.
I've been yapping for a while, so here's a quick recap of what we can learn about Ivan in scenes 2-6:
He is Andrew's friend
(implied — they speak with each other comfortably, visit each other's homes, and Ivan offers Andrew a place to stay even though it's an inconvenience for him.)
He is insecure
He does not want people to know he is insecure
He believes Andrew is better than him (more on this later)
He is bad at respecting the boundaries of others
> Scene 8: Trapped
At this point Ivan has already been manipulative, intentional or not.
"No wonder you called my apartment pathetic and gray" (Scene 4) — an exaggeration to make Andrew feel bad. Because Andrew made him feel bad.
"It's not healthy living like this" (Scene 4) — tugging at Andrew's emotions to convince him that he needs Ivan's help
"I want to help my friend. It's not about the game, it's about you" (Scene 6) — hmm
But Scene 8 is when things really start to hit the fan. And I don't know if he's doing this on purpose or he just lacks self-awareness. Regardless, Ivan opens Scene 8 with some gnarly dialogue:
"There's no reason to fight about something that didn't really matter. We blew it way out of proportion, and... I don't like fighting with you."
We blew it way out of proportion. I don't like fighting with you. These words drip with a lack of accountability. Even though Ivan likely started the fight with the I'm gonna throw Andrew's shit away! from Scene 6, he includes Andrew in his language and speaks as though the fight is a burden on him. He doesn't acknowledge that he is the source of the problem.
Trait unlocked: lack of accountability! Why? Because he needs to look like a winner. So, this isn't new information, really. He's just getting worse about something we already know.
The dialogue in Scene 8 is extremely important. So, since I have a lot to say, I'm gonna condense some of it into bullet points:
Ivan rewards Andrew for his complacency (compliments him for being "diplomatic" and for "not fighting") which is a form of conditioning
“You really do deserve all that you get. Fans, likes, good reviews, numbers, the attention, the awards, the legacy.”
[…]
“You’re a god. Almost. Relatively.”
If you couldn't tell Ivan was jealous before, he's shouting it in your face now.
THE ICONIC STAIRS METAPHOR. It's hard for me not to paste the whole conversation here, because whenever I think of Ivan this is the first thing I remember.
"I'm, like, a thousand steps behind. With a broken leg."
The extended metaphor of the staircase is one of the most crucial parts of Ivan's character because it makes his insecurity plainly obvious. In his own words, Ivan admits that he believes he has a lower value than Andrew. Andrew has talent, and creativity, and passion, and probably a following, and — what does Ivan have? Jack shit, that's what. And even when Andrew tries to comfort him, tries to reassure him, Ivan isn't receptive to it. He's too busy feeling wronged to realize Andrew is his supportive friend, rather than his enemy.
Ivan dissociates. When Andrew asks if he's okay, Ivan reacts with hostility (can't let people know I have flaws!) Note that this is the third time Ivan has gotten defensive about a comment that could reveal him as a failure.
> Enter: THE TUMOR
I fucking love the tumor. okay. when youre playing the game youve already seen this guy from Andrew's perspective. To Andrew, the tumor represents Ivan. But to Ivan, the tumor represents a deeper part of him he doesn't want to acknowledge. When he approaches the tumor in Scene 8, he is in his own mind, bargaining with himself.
“I don’t want to hear it.”
"Hear what? The truth?"
“That Andrew is always right. That he’s perfect, and I’m in the wrong for feeling this way. Feeling… inadequate. I'm tired of it. It's like I failed over something I can't control.”
I'm tired of feeling worthless, he tells it. I'm afraid of ending up like my dad.
After talking to the tumor (← himself) about it, here's what he decides to do. Andrew is above him, right? He's higher on the staircase, closer to the light and the ultimate goal of success and recognition. But Ivan has a broken leg, so he can't catch up. You know what he can do? He can bring Andrew down to his level. And so begins the brutality of this relationship, in which Ivan controls and devalues Andrew to feel equal. Meanwhile, Ivan is trying to weasel his way into Andrew's game as a method of lifting himself up.
Though much of the relationship happens off screen, Scene 9 (Sailor) does an exceptional job at conveying Andrew's exhaustion and misery during his time at Ivan's apartment, as well as how he sacrifices himself to keep their friendship together.
Okay. recap time. Here's what we know about Ivan in scenes 2-9:
He is insecure
He does not want people to know he is insecure
He believes Andrew is better than him, to the point of jealousy
Due to his father's passing, he is afraid of being forgotten
He will take from others to fight this fear
And yeah he’s still bad at respecting boundaries
So, like. Scene 10 (Falling) is just awful right.
Ivan says some really nasty things.
He thinks it's ridiculous that Andrew is afraid because aren't you so much better than me? Andrew's gotta be faking it. "Playing the victim."
Ivan thinks he was being generous by offering to help Andrew, and is upset his "generosity" has been taken advantage of (reminder: Andrew did not want his help.)
"No. You don't want me at all. That's why you destroy everything I make, isn't it?" guilt tripping!
You're leeching off of me you've been here too long → Okay well I'm leaving → Nooooo :(
Seems like he dislikes and likes Andrew at the same time. He hates Andrew enough to think Andrew is hurting him, but values Andrew enough that he doesn't want him to leave. Ivan likes to contradict himself — can you recall any other examples of this?
Overall just a really awful terrible time. He's releasing frustration towards Andrew that he's been sitting on for the past several scenes.
The angriest and most irrational he's been so far, Ivan almost tries to kill Andrew later in this scene. To me this marks him as an impulsive person driven by emotions rather than logic. We've already seen erratic behavior in the form of lashing out, getting defensive, and contradicting his own talking points, so I think it checks out.
Andrew gets the hell outta there (YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
When Ivan leaves the room post-fight, the hallway is full of roof access doors, which to me suggests that he could be thinking about suicide. I find it interesting that he has this thought right after Andrew tells him he plans on leaving. Since he's angry, it could be out of spite — if I died right now Andrew would feel bad. On the other hand, maybe Andrew leaving represents failure to him — he thinks he's failed so badly that he should just give up.
When speaking to his father:
"I tried so hard to escape it, but I'll still end up just like you."
Ivan is tunnel-visioned on Andrew's game and thinks it's his only way to get that sweet juicy legacy. And now Andrew is moving out. Andrew will take the game with him, and he'll have no more chances. Really, Ivan failed in more ways than he realizes right now, but that's besides the point.
Scene 12 (Mad) is a long scene, so I'm going to try to move on from it quickly. Rapid-fire quotes, go!
“You know, I used to say he’d either be a writer or a car salesman, the way he can tell a story.” — He's always been good with words. A car salesman is an interesting comparison to make, because a salesman has to be good at coercion to sell a product. Remember the manipulation?
“Always so backhanded about it. Passive-aggressive. Cowardly."
[...]
"Always acting like you were better. Like you deserved more than me just because you got lucky and made a few good games.” — Ivan spits his jealousy, as well as his belief that Andrew was faking his behavior and/or trying to put him down
"My poor little Ivan. So underappreciated." — It's unclear if Ivan's mom is truly acting like herself in this scene, but either interpretation has interesting implications. If you think the memory is accurate to reality, Ivan's mom could give a clue as to where Ivan's insecurity stems from. If you think the memory is fake or warped, this is likely a case of Ivan belittling himself.
“I failed. And in the process I lost the only person who could help me.” — Due to Ivan's disregard for Andrew's feelings, ignorance towards his own mental health, and obsession with legacy, I'm inclined to believe he isn't talking about the kind of help he really needs. Ivan's concern is that he lost the only person who can give him what he wants, rather than a friendship or a mental health outlet.
“Don’t you think it’s a little odd for two men to be living together?”
“I don’t think it’s...” — Ivan has a crush on Andrew which is likely why he thought Andrew was so much better than him. More on this soon.
"Do you want to be forgotten? Do you want to leave behind even less than I did?" — His father states verbatim that being forgotten is the thing Ivan is afraid of. It's been implied, but this line is quite literal.
Ivan ends the scene by publishing Andrew's game without permission, an impulsive decision which calls back to his lack of respect for boundaries and his desire to be successful.
Ivan doesn't do much in Scene 14 aside from 1.) be upset, 2.) act like the victim and 3.) blame Andrew, things we've already seen him do, so I won't bore you. Just know that Andrew is never coming back.
> Scene 16: Bad Things, AKA The Guilt Arc, AKA "I'm surprised the devs had enough restraint not to namedrop the game's title in any of the dialogue do you guys ever think about that"
Remember when Ivan's biggest problem was that he didn't have enough decorations in his apartment?
Scene 16 is a mammoth of a chapter, so for my own sanity I'm only going to focus on two key scenes:
Ivan's apology to Andrew
Ivan's final confrontation with the tumor
The car flashback gets an honorable mention because I think it's absolutely sinister that the devs dropped it this late in the story. It supports the idea that Andrew had a troubled upbringing and that Ivan was once a semi-normal friend who said semi-normal things. You know, before the insecurity demon took over or whatever.
It's ironic that Ivan advised Andrew to "leave [his abusive parents] in the dust," only for him to be upset when Andrew does the same thing to him. Another classic case of contradiction.
"Your footsteps ring in my ears" — A note in a hallway with the same wallpaper as Ivan's family home. I miss when you were around. I'm being haunted.
1.) The apology
In which Ivan tries to make amends.
"I’m trying to say that I’m broken. I don’t want to be this way anymore."
Is he saying he doesn't want to be a bad person, or that he just doesn't want to feel depressed? Does he know he did something wrong? You know what, whatever. At least he's finally acknowledging his mental health.
"I believe that love looks just a little different for everyone. For me it was darker than most. Meaner than most. A little uglier than most. And I loved you a lot. More than I could bare."
He realized he 1.) loved Andrew, and 2.) hurt him. The issue, though, is that he's dancing around what he did. He's on the right track, but he's avoiding specificity. Maybe it's because he doesn't know what the problem is, he just knows Andrew was upset enough to leave him over it.
"Looking to the sky can leave you blinded by the sun, I guess. And I lost you, somewhere along the way. And I replaced you with who *I* wanted to be."
Wait! Was I was wrong? He knows the version of Andrew he thought was better than him isn't real! That his rationale for cruelty was based on something that doesn't exist! Could this really be happening?!
"I was wrong. We *do* need each other."
Ah.
So he doesn't comprehend the situation. He knows he was jealous and he knows he did something bad, which is a step in the right direction. However, he hasn't yet understood that the friendship is beyond repair. He hasn't truly apologized because he hasn't truly understood what he did wrong. He wants a second chance. And for a moment, it seems like Andrew is willing to give it to him — until the big twist is revealed, which is that the entire "apology" happened inside of Ivan's head. It ends with Andrew telling him only what Ivan wants to hear:
"I forgive you."
Footnotes:
"I understand if you don’t forgive me. I understand if you hate me... but please, *please* don’t forget me Andrew." — Does he really understand if he was hoping for a second chance? Also, fear of being forgotten.
"So, are you still releasing those games?" — First topic he jumps to after being "forgiven." His priorities are still in the wrong place.
2.) The tumor
Ivan's conversation with the tumor is my favorite scene of the game. I am not exaggerating. FYI: some of the dialogue is out of order because I found it easier to talk about that way.
You may remember from an earlier paragraph that the tumor represents the parts of Ivan that are flawed. Like we saw in Scene 8, the tumor is just Ivan. Ivan, however, views it as its own separate entity — a monster, something evil which he has no control over. When Ivan approaches it in this scene, he's quick to start blaming it for his problems.
"You can still clean up this awful mess you’ve made."
"I made? You ruined everything. You made me hurt my… hurt Andrew."
This isn't true, of course. The tumor never told Ivan to treat Andrew the way he did. It may have fed into his insecurities, it may have given him the idea to "make Andrew work more," but it was Ivan who decided how he should do it. It was Ivan who decided to act. Sorry man, but your little mind freak can't be held responsible for choices you made.
On the topic of the tumor just... being Ivan, I find it really interesting how it seems to be fully aware of what's going on. Even in Scene 8, it acknowledges that Ivan isn't okay — something that Ivan's "conscious" self refuses to do. In Scene 16, the tumor rightfully criticizes Ivan for being the cause of his own misery, which makes me think that Ivan knows a bit more than he lets on.
The tumor knows that everything is fucked. Conscious Ivan doesn't like thinking about it, so he crumbles under the pressure.
"I’M SORRY! I AM SORRY! I’m sorry, okay!"
"If that’s how you feel, why didn’t you tell him?"
This quote carries a double meaning. If you paid attention to when Ivan was in his head just before this, you might have noticed that even though he claims he's there to apologize, he doesn't say "sorry" once. Instead, he vaguely refers to the feeling of having done something wrong and then begs to be remembered. The only person he's truly said sorry to is... his dad?
Scene 10 (Falling) — "I tried so hard to escape it, but I'll still end up just like you."
"That's what you get for helping people, right?"
"...I'm sorry."
"Don't be."
Scene 12 (Mad) — "I failed. And in the process I lost the only person who could help me. Andrew... He's gone. I'm sorry. I'm so, so sorry."
"Don't wallow. Perhaps it's for the best."
He's sorry for failing. He still has nothing to be remembered for and he thinks his dad would be disappointed in him.
The tumor calls him out because he didn't apologize to Andrew in his head, nor did he apologize in real life. He claims he's sorry, but he is avoiding responsibility.
If you're open to a short detour, there is one last thing about Ivan that I’ve been neglecting to talk about. Mostly because it just hasn’t been relevant:
Scene 2 (Friends) — "If you really wanna learn [how to code], just start making something. Or steal code from Google and say it's your own. It's what the pros do."
"Yeah... I'll pass."
Though Ivan's disinterest could be towards the idea of stealing, I think what he's really responding to is "just start making something." Starting from scratch on a project when you have no skills or experience is difficult.
Scene 10 (Falling) — "And your writing is great! But it's derivative. Borderline stealing."
Ivan's writing is "derivative" and full of quotes from other authors. Their words worked for them, right? Why should he use his own?
Scene 10 — "If you want freedom, make your own game. I've seen your work, Ivan. Nothing is stopping you."
He's still adamant on controlling Andrew's work, instead of stepping back and making something by himself. Andrew has skills (and possibly a reputation) that he doesn't, after all.
Scene 12 (Mad) — "[Ivan] takes a lot of... liberties... with his inspiration, though."
"Really? How?"
"Oh, I just mean he takes a lot from other games."
You get the idea.
Here's what these quotes have in common: Ivan doesn't like to do things that are hard. He's afraid of being forgotten and wants to make a name for himself, but he wants it to be easy. Maybe it's because difficult tasks are likely to result in failure — and we know how Ivan feels about failure.
Let's bring it back to the tumor now. Ivan realizes that he can't blame it for his problems. He needs to change.
“You want to grow… but you won’t change a thing.”
“I am growing! I am changing! I’m trying, it’s just… so hard to.”
Changing is hard. For Ivan to change, he first needs to go against the three biggest things he avoids: he has to accept that he failed, he has to confront his flaws, and he has to take accountability. You think he’s going to do it?
FUCK no!
He lost the one person who mattered to him! He's miserable, he's alone, and he didn't even get the thing he wanted! He is at rock bottom. And if he can’t find anything positive to be remembered for, he might as well blow up the fucking apartment and take himself down with it! The tumor warns him against this.
“You will turn back.”
Ivan doesn't have to give up on himself. In the tumor's words, it wouldn't be speaking to him if he were beyond saving. But Ivan’s already made his choice. Sure, he wants to change. But he isn't willing to. He refuses to acknowledge the problems within himself, and thus refuses to solve them, and thus has no starting point. Ivan decides he can't be fixed, even though he never gave it a try.
And so begins the exhausting climb up the stairs, sprawling near endlessly ahead of him. He would rather die than face himself. He would rather die than live with his failure. He would rather die.
Why Ivan is Important to Me
You can skip this part if you want I'll try to keep it brief. I've spoken to people in the community who have a genuinely difficult time sympathizing with Ivan, who see the evil things he's done and just can't feel bad for the guy. I think it's fine to feel that way about him. I'm kind of a freak anyway.
The reason I love Ivan so much is because... when I look into his soul, I see my own reflection staring back. I'm a deeply insecure person — it used to be much worse, but I'm getting better about it. I'm afraid to fail. I'm afraid to be nothing. I look to the people I admire and the art I love so much and I get angry. I think... "why wasn't I the one who made this? When am I going to make my masterpiece?" I've had that thought about Bad Things, actually, and it feels horrible. Feels cruel.
I too have been an awful friend. I too have leeched off of someone innocent for something I thought would make me happy, even though in the long term I could only get that thing from myself. When I played Bad Things, I was less uncomfortable with the relationship and Samuel and the scary lockers and more uncomfortable with the fact that Ivan was basically just me with a Jenga block removed.
In January, I sent the dev a long thank you email (if youre reading... um... hi. waves.) and I'd be lying if I said I ever stopped thinking about it. What I wrote is embarrassing, and the reason why is because at the time I didn't fully understand Ivan yet. I didn't really... know why I related to him. I just knew that I did, and I sat there picking out surface-level coincidences like "metaphors that make you look smart" and "hey I also tried to control a friend's creative project once." He reminds me so much of a version of myself from a few years ago — someone who, by the time I discovered the game, I was still angry with and was trying to forget ever existed. Bad Things brought her back. Bad Things brought the entire memory of that relationship back. I feel a little better about things now.
IN CONCLUSION: Who is Ivan?
"Cowardly. And egotistical. And insecure."
He was Andrew’s friend, once
He is insecure
He does not want people to know he is insecure
→ Doesn't want to acknowledge his flaws, and thus will never take accountability
He is impulsive and illogical — he acts based on his feelings, rather than rational thought
→ Leads to contradictions, hostility, and broken boundaries
He believes Andrew is better than him, to the point of jealousy
→ Has romantic admiration towards Andrew which he suppresses
Due to his father's passing, he is afraid of being forgotten
→ Will go to extreme lengths to fight this fear, which include: taking from others, risking the lives of others, and suicide
Because of his insecurity (I am nothing), jealousy (Andrew is everything), and lack of accountability (I can't be flawed), he feels as though Andrew has wronged him. It takes him a long time to realize this wasn't true.
As far as we know, Ivan's feelings of inadequacy are self-inflicted. But seeing as he won't acknowledge he hurt someone else, he probably won't acknowledge that he hurts himself either.
Abuse is a type of behavior. It is when someone treats another person in a cruel and unjust way. Ivan is an abuser because he exhibits patterns of abusive behavior. That being said, Ivan taught me that two things can be true at once — you can hate someone and love them, you can be fearful and powerful, you can be unwell and not going through anything.
So, two things are true: Ivan is an abuser, and he is also a multi-faceted human being. I acknowledge, though, that he is a fictional character. We treat him a bit differently from real people.
If you are being hurt by someone, do not let "they're human" convince you that it's okay for them to treat you terribly.
You can't force anyone to change — they have to do it themself.
To cap everything off, here's one of my favorite posts from the (cactus) man who wrote Bad Things:
Remember that this is all my interpretation and you're welcome to disagree with me on anything. Thanks for reading.
[lyr]
all my days I climb these steps
chasing the light over my head
I should have quit, inadequate
yet I still walk with a broken leg
you are the one who could save my life
your halo so bright, it just makes me blind
I just can't do anything like you
and that's why I'm always a step behind
Quick addendum because I got a question from a friend and had a few more thoughts. It's short, but I'm gonna add the read more thing anyway because I recommend reading the rest of the post first:
Why does Ivan care so much about legacy anyway? Like, isn't that just a weird thing to go chasing after? How does it relate to his father?
In western cultures (that I know of!), men are traditionally the "breadwinners." So, maybe Ivan feels pressured by this societal expectation and that's part of why he cares so much about looking successful. Maybe he feels like, when his dad died alone and forgotten, his dad wasn't enough of a winner and therefore failed as a man. Just speculation though.
Ivan's relationship with gender is something I didn't touch on at all. Mostly because I'm not a cis man so I'm not really knowledgeable enough to talk about it. But it is part of who he is.
I also didn't mention internalized homophobia (scary buzz word). Ivan's father is a figment of his imagination (never appears in reality, only in Ivan's head). So, when Ivan's dad questions if it's strange for two men to live together, who do you think is really criticizing Ivan's feelings? His dad, or himself?
