So, there you go: Azula’s redemption arc. I always figured Zuko would be there for her, too, for the same reasons he lays out. And then his chest scar would have been the reminder of how he saved two of the most important women in his life with the same self-sacrifice. 😭😭😭
Wow, an Ehaszes-helmed season 4 would have killed. 😭
Join me as we get some new info about arc 3 of The Dragon King, such as how being parents have changed Callum and Rayla, Ezran's continued evolution, what Terry might be up to, and other deep lore tidbits like The Mage Wars and King Atticus!
As always, transcript of interview down below + timestamps for questions. Previous interviews co-creator can be found here and here.
Also something that came up is they are interested in doing more character birthdays for ones that don't have it yet (ie. Corvus, Terry, etc). If there is a character you'd like to have a birthday and they don't yet, please send it to me in some form and I will put it on the list to send to them.
0:25 — How has the Kickstarter experience been? How has it been connecting with the fandom more?
3:09 — What was the reasoning behind a seven year (and nineteen day) timeskip?
5:13 — How has been parents changed Callum and Rayla?
8:10 — How does Callum feel about Aaravos going forward?
10:45 — Avigail’s question: how do other characters like Runaan, Ethari, and Soren react to baby Sarai?
12:06 — What are you most excited to explore with Ezran in Arc 3?
15:03 — Explorations for Zym as a character in arc 3
15:30 — What has it been like getting to develop Luna Devorans?
17:39 — Is there anything you can tease about Terry?
19:54 — What is Claudia up to during the timeskip? Can she and Aaravos communicate?
22:56 — Any teases for the Sunfire elf plotline in arc 3?
24:31 — The book two novelization mentions the Oracles of Ophidian / deep lore information for the Mage Wars
26:16 — The Orphan Queen and the Jailer
27:28 — Where did the name Aaravos come from?
28:26 — Are there any plans for exploring King Atticus as a character?
29:39 — A story from after Season 1 of Avatar: The Last Airbender came out
32:39 — Did Sir Sparklepuff have an arcanum?
34:30 — Character birthdays for Corvus, Terry, Karim, etc.
35:36 — Why doesn’t Viren tell anyone about Pip-Harrow in season 6?
38:46 — What is your favourite character design in The Dragon King?
40:21 — What are inspirations that come to mind when thinking about Dragon Prince (ie. Lord of the Rings)?
TRANSCRIPT:
W: Hello, and welcome back to the WordswithDragons podcast. I’m pleased to welcome back co-creator Aaron Ehasz. Aaron, welcome!
A: Thank you, I’m really glad to be back!
W: Yeah! Alright, so the last time we did one of these, I think was like two weeks before the Kickstarter came out. So very excited to get to revisit that, so I suppose my first question would be, how has the Kickstarter experience been, how has it been connecting with the fandom more?
A: Kickstarter is — Kickstarter’s intense, first of all, which is to say there’s just so many moving parts and things that you’re doing to like to make sure the whole kind of engagement works, and that you’re communicating with all your backers and so that people know what and when it’s going on, and what forms you need to fill out and what taxes you have to be paid — anyway, there’s a lot that goes into a Kickstarter. Fortunately, my partners and some of the teams we’ve worked with have really stepped it up to work on this, but yes, as a — as a feeling, it’s been great, the energy’s been amazing. One of the things that everybody saw was that like the top tiers of our Kickstarter went in like a day, they were really fast, which to me kind of demonstrates “Wow, there are a lot of super fans of The Dragon Prince and the Dragon King to come.”
W: Yeah. Yeah, I know I did the mage tier at first, the $100, and then I like looked at myself in the mirror and was like, “What do you actually want?” and then I did the Archmage, cause I was like—once in a lifetime kind of opportunity, right?
A: And I’m not in like the world of like, I guess, dolphins and whales, or whatever people call it — like I’m definitely not a whales guy. I feel like it should be a democratic fandom.
W: Mmhm.
A: People should be able to be as engaged as they want to be, as — with a low barrier to entry. So it’s more that it’s like wow, okay, there are people who went through the decision making process you did, who really wanted that merch, or really wanted that — so it’s exciting, but also I recognize kind of the — we want it to be a fandom where for all of us, too, so.
W: I think you guys have done a really good job at making it like accessible at all the kind of different levels, even like, you know, how you’ll post the behind-the-scenes stuff to Instagram, so that people can keep up that way too, so I think that’s been like a really good balance. Yeah.
A: Yeah. Specific shoutout by the way to Kim Swift, who has been sort of project managing and doing a lot of our social stuff and she’s a legendary games producer, but who has stepped in to like really help us stay organized and on top of stuff, so a lot of the stuff you’re talking about, is very much thank you Kim for — for making sure and reaching everyone, that things are going out, so.
W: Yeah that’s awesome.
A: It’s a lot of work!
W: Yeah!
A: So you gotta be grateful to all the people who are coming together to get it done. It’s a lot of work. Yeah.
W: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Kim! So I suppose my first kind of big question is: was there a particular reason behind wanting to do a seven year timeskip and 19 days?
A: Um. Yes and no. I mean, I think seven years and 19 days is a little bit just like a memorable kind of gap. We wanted it to be enough time that you would feel like some of our characters could grow up and start to become more adult, and start to accumulate and grow their — their powers. We wanted them to reach kind of — we wanted them to reach like top tier power levels. But you also, we didn’t — you didn’t want it to be too much of a timeskip where it’s gone to the next generation or stuff like that, so. But also it felt like the right amount of time to be “okay, our problems are solved, sort of, but what do we do? How do we get ready for what’s going to happen, or what is going to happen in seven years?” so I don’t know. What do you think of that amount of time?
W: Well, it reminded me of the seven year famine in Duren. Of almost like, you’re trying to — even just in regards to I feel like, most of the characters were kind of on the cusp of adulthood, if not already there, like I think Soren was already twenty in arc 2 or whatever.
A: Yeah.
W: But I thought a lot about Ezran, of how we are kind of skipping some of his adolescence, of going from twelve to like eighteen, nineteen, so what do you kind of do with the child king when he’s no longer a child? And even like, what has the seven year wait time done to everyone on like a psychological level, cause it’s just enough time that you can kind of live your life, but it’s not so much time that you can forget, y’know, what’s coming, so.
A: Yeah.
W: But on that line of kind of changing characters, I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how becoming parents has changed Callum and Rayla as characters, whether in their priorities, or could continue to change them?
A: I mean, it has to, and again, some of this will come out in the — when we’re doing the writing and the storytelling and kind of working our way through it, you know, so much of The Dragon Prince is about what happens when these generational conflicts get passed down, and how are they passed down, and what if the newest generation — which was Callum, Rayla, and Ezran — say hey, we don’t want this conflict, we want to change it, we want to stop this war, we want to take this dragon egg back to the Dragon Queen and see if we can change things. And so much of that story is about the struggle of a new generation to solve the problems, to live toward some kind of better ideals, some better possibilities, despite all the pressures, and it’s not necessarily intentional pressures, but the pressures to take on the previous generation’s burdens and kind of emotional and moral debts and um. So, when you see two of these young characters now coming to oh now, now they have this vantage point of starting to create this new generation. What does this mean to have a child and how do you project whatever hopes and dreams you had or still have, and what do you hope is different for them? Like I think it will give us a chance to like — to give Callum and Rayla kind of a reflective but also a growth point for their point of view on those kinds of themes, I don’t know. That’s kind of where I’m hoping it gets us. So it’s not necessarily about well now you’ve gotta take care of a baby and all the feeding and all the responsibility, and we’ll probably have some humourous stuff about that, but it’s about how do you see your legacy and your kind of duty to the world and how — how do you start to see that through the eyes of someone new, and how do you, y’know—what does that mean? I dunno. Something like that.
W: Yeah. Yeah, it made me think a lot about Sarai and Damian, cause presumably he was sick when they were having Callum, and they kind of knew maybe they weren’t going to have all this time that they would ideally want.
A: Yeah.
W: And that, given that Callum is still vulnerable to Aaravos, presumably, it’s kind of like that same question, like what do we do with the time that we have, and how do we build something even if we don’t get to see it, for like our children, which — I don’t know. Dragon Prince is a lot about parents and children, so.
A: Right.
W: I was like yes — I like generational stuff. How is Callum thinking and feeling about Aaravos going forward?
A: Um. Going forward. I mean, I suspect — the question is whether he thinks he’s vulnerable or not. He didn’t complete the spell, but maybe he got far enough. I dunno, to me there are probably, if I’m Callum, there are some days I wake up in a cold sweat, and I’m like I’m completely vulnerable, I’m going to shatter, my insides are going to shatter the moment I have to face him again, because I corrupted myself and then I didn’t follow through to imprison him. And then there are parts that are going to be like well, or maybe [I’m] not, because I didn’t finish it, maybe I am strong enough inside, or he can’t corrupt me. Maybe I have to choose to live my life, y’know, in the latter way but also somewhere prepare for the possibility that the scary part happens. And I don’t know how Rayla would reassure him or they would live with that or how it ties into his other core themes of destiny being a book you write yourself and things like that. So I suspect he’s not sure whether to be in a panic or not. I also know that he’s going to be really focused on preparing himself in these seven years to be as powerful as possible to be ready for Aaravos. We have some specific ideas of some spells that would be helpful. I’m trying to think of how to phrase it that’s not like spoilers, but some very specific spells that would potentially help the world prepare for Aaravos, that for Callum to be able to do those, he’s going to have to master some arcana that he doesn’t have yet, and also possibly find some information on some of the spells. But yeah, you know, the goal, I think the idea has always been that he’s on the cusp of being an Archmage, that maybe he’s one arcanum short, kind of at the very beginning of The Dragon King.
W: Yeah. Yeah, okay. Alright, so I have a question from a fan named Avigail, and they asked, how do other characters react to Sarai II, like maybe Runaan and Ethari are grandparents, or Soren?
A: Yeah, I mean like, I assume they think she’s adorable. I don’t know, I don’t have a specific thought on it, on how they react. What do — when you saw that question, what do you Avigail was wondering about, or what Avigail is thinking?
W: Yeah, I think it’s even just kind of like, I think Soren would be thrilled, cause now in his head he’s like, “I’m Uncle Soren!” and they’re like “sure!” you know?
A: This would be fun as a conversation, cause I would love to hear Avigail talk about that, like yeah, totally. Soren totally seems like he’d want to be, like, in uncle mode pretty quickly, right, like giving neck rides and stuff like that, you know. Unofficial uncle mode, you know?
W: And I’m just very quickly going to move to the other room, just in case for sound, so we’ll see how that is. Alright. I am wearing the Key of Aaravos shirt today, so there’s that.
A: Ah, very cool.
W: Okay. So, we already kind of touched on this a little bit, it seems like Ezran will be the character that’s changed the most from the timeskip, what are you most excited to explore with him in arc 3?
A: So, I think as opposed to Callum who might be trying really hard to not to think about his vulnerability and stay focused and build his power, I wonder if Ezran has become a little grim.
W: Yeah. That’s what I’m hoping for!
A: Yeah, I have some thought that he’s always been so burdened with the throne, with his responsibilities, and now he has the Nova Blade, and he didn’t have the chance to end it himself, but he knows that if he has to, he will. I don’t know, I suspect that — I suspect he’s very mindful of that, but I think there are other things on his mind, too. I think that he wants Evrkynd to succeed, I think that that’s a meaningful kind of experiment in the world or wherever it is. And obviously there’s the tangle in, and we’ll have to see how that plays out, of whether and how Pip and Harrow come back into the picture and what that means. But uh, his ideas always tend towards how do we change the world, how do we make things better, how do we live with greater empathy, and not fall into the old traps, and so he’s going to be figuring out ways to do that and ways to use his power and Zym’s power to change Xadia for the better, and then I think the storyline of course of being challenged by Luna Devorans is going to make that more challenging. How do you — how do you change the world if you’re saying you’re The Dragon King and there’s someone else who’s like no, you’re the usurper, this is — you’re the false king, you’re — Yeah.
W: Yeah. I think a lot about him and Zym’s dynamic as well in terms of like, Ezran is Zym’s partner in a lot of ways and his family, and they both are so young and have so much power and responsibility, and like they’re very aligned, but also there’s some potential cracks there.
A: Yeah.
W: And I think Luna Devorans.
A: And that’s, while I don’t have a notion of like Zym and Ezran like fighting, I don’t really see seeds of a significant rift — we do want to see Zym become his own person and not be a pet. Obviously, like we have Dante Basco now [W laughs] playing Zym, so we need to see this become—
W: The range.
A: —a complex interesting character, y’know? Dragons are super intelligent, right, I mean like, so we need to see that come to life. We need to see them as characters interacting and what does that mean, and I think that’ll be a lot of fun.
W: Yeah, yeah. What has it been like getting to develop Luna Devorans?
A: Well, first of all it’s been like cool that with Liam O’Brien on board, who’s really a great performer. One of the hard parts with Dragon Prince has always been like, we have such a great cast and they’re all so connected that whenever we’ve brought someone new in, like, it has to be someone with real presence and you know, confidence, and that’s part of when Ben came in doing Terry, that was like huge. He carried it, he was amazing, and Terry came in and felt like a main character on day one, it was just wonderful, and that’s really a testament to Ben’s talent and confidence. And Liam, obviously, has, you know, a storied career and comes in with that as well, so that’s exciting and — and a challenge, but also like, it’s a fun character, because we’ve been sort of playing to Aaravos for so long and Viren for that matter, who are both like cerebral villains and planners, and Luna Devorans is certainly brilliant, but he’s freaking impulsive, and emotional, and moody, and that’s really fun. Y’know, he’s one of those people who in some ways he’s his own worst enemy, but he’s so powerful and brilliant that he can dig his way out of it when he — you know, and it’s going to be really fun, but it’s also interesting when you talk about a character like that, and a character like Aaravos, how — how do they interact? What are their conflicts and what do they have in common? And that’s going to be something very interesting to play with, so.
W: Yeah. Alright. Yeah, no, Terry was definitely like — it’s going to be weird to go back and watch the earlier seasons, and be like, “where is he? He’s not here,” cause he’s such a core part of the show.
A: Yeah.
W: Is there anything you can tease about Terry in arc 3?
A: So the big like pin of a caveat is that we are definitely — we’re at a stage where like Justin and I have had conversations, we’ve had conversations with some of the writers, like oh mini little brainstorms and fun ideas, so we’re at a stage where things haven’t been decided. Um. Maybe that Terry has an important role in leading Evrkynd, that — that’s one thing, but also, and I can’t say, there may be some non-Claudia shipping that we have Terry set up for, so that’s something. I don’t want to say who, cause there’s at least one writer who doesn’t like that ship [W laughs] and other people who are like nah, it’s perfect, so we gotta let it play out, but you know, I would say Terry will always love Claudia, but also is the kind of person who’s going to take a deep breath and try to find his own happiness and, you know, let himself be open to that. He’s not someone who is going to pine forever, for his...
W: He’s not Callum.
A: His very complicated—yeah, right, exactly, so, so that’s, I think that’s going to be fun for Terry and, I dunno.
W: I thought he was a very good exploration of like, you know, lots of characters say “this is necessary, this is necessary,” and Terry’s kind of walking this fine line of like, well “is this actually necessary?” like “I’m going to do in my heart what is necessary,” so y’know, him and Claudia is like, a very complicated relationship and I loved how that kind of all shook out, but I’m also was really happy in season seven when we got to see him with more characters and more dynamics, so getting to see more of that and even him potentially moving on is a really interesting direction for him, cause I know you once said that he was your favourite character in Dragon Prince, and like, I totally get it, so.
A: Yeah.
W: Okay, uh, speaking of Claudia, we know that she’s going to Esmeray.
A: Right.
W: We know that she’s going to be involved mainly in some dragon machinations, is there anything else you can share about what she’s up to, can she and Aaravos like communicate at all?
A: Yeah. So, some of this is like, I’m letting you into process and early stage thoughts, so some things we know, some things we don’t know. I’m going to assume she’s figured out a way to communicate with Aaravos, probably, and some of it is a question of like, well how do we — what is that gonna be, and what’s a cool way do that, and how do we make that a cool thing that’s not necessarily... like think about what, you know, Viren had to do to communicate. First it was through this magic mirror, but then it was through an incredibly elaborate cosmic mating ritual [W laughs] spell that resulted in a weird—
W: Baby.
A: —web lens being sewn over his eyes and stuff, so it’s not quite the same now, because Aaravos is not imprisoned or hidden, Aaravos is returned to the cosmos, so it may be a different way, but I want to figure that out.
W: I was just assuming like dreams, cause then it can be kind of cryptic and symbolic, but still — who knows?
A: Could be, could be. It’s interesting, I was thinking about dreaming yesterday, I was thinking about dream spells, so that’s very interesting you should say that. Like things that you would do to put yourself in a certain state so that you could have certain dreams, so that’s interesting.
W: I’ve dabbled with like original magic systems kind of like that, so I’m always a fan of it, and even like, I think the way Dragon Prince uses dreams, like the dark magic ones is like, I remember in season 5 where I was like okay, the dark magic dreams are kind of prophetic.
A: Right.
W: Now looking at Harrow in chains in season two, I’m like that’s another point in the bird column so we were — I was very excited about that.
A: Yeah. Yeah, the kind of dream space no time you kind of get through dark magic, maybe there are other ways to get there. Um, yeah, that’s interesting. But yeah, obviously she’s been up to a lot, I mean, so.
W: Yeah. She’s having a great time. So easy, so chill.
A: Yeah, Claudia. She’s got goals.
W: [Wheezes] Yeah, I—love her. Alright, so one of the things — and I’m expecting this to be a more speculative answer — but one of the things we haven’t really heard anything about is kind of like what the Sunfire plotline might look like.
A: Right.
W: We have Miyana’s twins.
A: Right.
W: Janai and Amaya will have been queens now for like seven years. I know I was curious if they’re going to like rebuild on the Lux Aurea, cause it’s technically destroyed but the chasm is there. Any thoughts or teases about the Sunfire elf plotline?
A: I don’t know, but you touched on all the elements [W laughs] including like, Miyana’s twins will be a couple years — they’ll be kids, right? They’ll be young people. So what do they know about the world, what do they know about their father, how do they feel about that, what do they know, you know? That’s interesting to me.
W: Yeah, yeah.
A: And there are other parts of the world we want to get into more. I feel like one of the things that I wish we had been able to do more in Mystery of Aaravos is spend in the map, in places that we didn’t get to, you know? And so I’m hoping — I’m hopeful that that’s a part of this too, that there are new parts of Xadia, that we’re able to unlock the promise of this vast magical continent.
W: Mmhm. I know I’ve been thinking a lot about Evenere recently, so even the Pentarchy as well, that could be fun. In speaking about expansion, this is a bit of a deep cut.
A: Okay.
W: The book two novelization mentions there’s this group called the Oracles of Ophidian, they make like the truth serums.
A: Right! Right.
W: And I was just wondering if we were ever — cause I know you guys like to leave little tidbits —
A: This is a deep cut.
W: In the novelizations. Is that something we might ever return to?
A: Um. We should. I hate to say this, but I should reread the [W laughs] novelizations. Yeah. I don’t know. That — we should return to that. I should reread them.
W: Okay. Awesome. I just thought like, anything with prophecy, anything with oracle, I was like, “Okay, that’s interesting.”
A: Well, and they’re — to, to tease other stuff, I mean we’re diving in a little more on some separate explorations into like the Mage Wars era and some of the stuff that happened during those times, so like — and Justin has been doing a lot of work on the Mage Wars era. Also Villads and I had started to dig into that, and there’s some interesting stories and parts of that time, kind of before the modern era happened that I think can be — would be interesting to get into, and we’re finding ways to tell that story too.
W: Okay, awesome! I’ve always wanted to know more about the Mage Wars, so getting that lore drop in season seven was awesome, and obviously like a really — like the end of the Mage Wars was a really important time with like, the Orphan Queen and Aaravos and his potential and in the Mage Wars. We got obviously more stuff about the Orphan Queen in arc 2, although I’m assuming there’s still—
A: Yeah.
W: More to her story. Will we ever learn more about the Jailer?
A: I think the Jailer would come to play — hang on, I’m getting a family text and I just want to make sure everything’s okay.
W: Yeah, course.
A: Okay. Yeah, I think the Jailer sort of features into what ends up being the Orphan Queen’s timeline and story, so potentially. Or maybe that’s sort of the post-[Orphan Queen’s] story.
W: They’re in the — they’re in the Zubeia lore flashback together—
A: Yeah, yeah.
W: When the prison was made, so they seem — I don’t know, it seems like maybe Orphan Queen started the Katolis line and maybe the tradition of having High Mages, that’s the speculation, anyway. Yeah, okay — this is something where I’ve always wondered, cause I think the wikipedia answers it but I don’t know what the source is, where did the name Aaravos come from?
A: What does the wikipedia say?
W: The wikipedia says the name meaning is “between light and dark.”
A: Okay.
W: Which is really cool, but I’ve never been able to like verify it.
A: Um. You might have to ask Devon [Ghiel, TDP writer and head writer of arc 2]. So my recollection is that we did a — she was helping us with a lot of brainstorming for names at that time, and this was one that I think she pitched this one, and probably because it had two As like my name, I was like, “Yeah, that seems like a badass—” I don’t know. [W laughs] So, um, but she probably has deeper reasons for the list she came up with and how she came up with them, so. Devon.
W: Okay, okay. Another kind of speculative question, cause I know we think that King Atticus is showing up in the Barius short.
A: Yes.
W: Um, is there anything you can tell us about King Atticus? Cause I know I was interested in Harrow’s parents like after season three, oh I’ll name them cause we’re never going to get into them in canon, just I’ll like, I’ll name them, and obviously King Atticus showed up, like “Okay! We are!” Is there anything you can tease about him or Kpp’Ar, or—?
A: Not specifically about Atticus, but I think... I think it’s worth potentially talking about at some point as we start to talk about generations and how things change, and the hopes and dreams of the generations that came before you, and I don’t know what — I think about, let’s say if, uh, King Ezran ever had a chance to talk more to his father, he would probably want to know some stories and know some stuff that he doesn’t know, so. There will be an opportunity.
W: Okay.
A: I hope it’s okay to — that sometimes, sometimes I feel like as creators, you’re supposed to come in and be like “Oh, you’ll find out about that later” and I have at times bluffed, which is [W laughs] a lot of the great bluff stories was on Avatar. I don’t know if you know this.
W: Oh, I don’t know.
A: I’ll tell it real quick. After season one of Avatar had come out, we did a panel at Comic Con, and we went through our whole panel, we did all our stuff, and we got to the end, and there was time for one question in the Q&A. And the person—do you know this story?
W: I don’t know, but I have — I feel like maybe somebody asked are we ever going to see Suki again, or something?
A: The person asked “if Uncle Iroh is the older brother, why is Ozai the Firelord?” [W laughs] So the truth is I didn’t know, Mike and Bryan hadn’t said any reason, but what I answered was, “You’re going to find out about that second season.” [W laughs]
W: I mean, it’s a great episode.
A: And it became — because also, I knew I had an instinct at that moment that like, “Okay, this is — a question like that, the answer is something very revealing about Iroh’s unusual character,” like it’s wonderful...
W: Little opportunity.
A: Opportunity to understand why he’s different, why did he not become Firelord, what changed in him, why is he not? He was once this great general who was leading war and doing things, what changed somewhere? Anyway, so um, but yeah, there real issue was the bluff led to the opportunity, but very often I think these conversations, it’s like, the real transparency into the process, there’s certain things we know, and certain things we find as we go, and it wouldn’t be fair to — I think it would be bad judgement as creators to come at it and be like “it’s already chiseled in stone in our minds,” because the whole point is we’re working with teams of writers and artists who are brilliant and creative, and we want their ideas to help us shape and evolve and do better than where we started, so yeah. I mean like, even again this conversation, like yeah okay, well there’s interest in Atticus, okay yeah, I could see where there’s a reason to dive into that, and why it would matter to Ezran, what we can find out, and understand more about things.
W: I think even Harrow as a king is someone who seems so uncertain of if he deserves what he has.
A: Yeah.
W: And it’s kind of like, it goes back to that idea of parents and children, and like what you intend to give your children versus how they like actually receive it sometimes, and sort of he gulf there, and it’s kind of like, where did that come from in Harrow? Well, maybe Atticus, unintentionally, right, or — kind of like Ezran’s lineage of looking back at kings, he has the Orphan Queen and he has Harrow, but Atticus is kind of like this other figure who could be developed in contrast so like — I think about him all the time. [Chuckles] This is a sort of question we were, my friends and I, we were mulling over: did Sir Sparklepuff have an arcanum?
A: Um, so... I mean, probably Star arcanum.
W: Yeah.
A: And it’s funny, I almost brought Sir Sparklepuff, AKA we always called him the Homunculus, I always thought that would be a more popular, that people would be more — he’s such a weird—
W: I love him.
A: —part of the story, and I thought it would be so surprising, like oh, it’s not that the caterpillar grew, and a little weird fellow with butterfly wings. I always thought it was so weird and cool, and I’m glad you liked it. But maybe it’s because we — we wanted people to feel invested in this unusual character enough that it felt bad when he’s sacrificed. You know, not as bad as, you know, Soren or something obviously, but.
W: I wrote like a one — I wrote a fic for him that was like, his life is kind of like an existential horror story, of like you’re created for this — and again, it goes back to that idea of, you know, we see this all the time in Dragon Prince, even maybe with humanity and the Cosmic Council of like, you’re created for this purpose, and then do you fit that design, and what does that mean for you, or do you divert from the design and what does that mean? So I thought Sir Sparklepuff was this really interesting look into destiny and agency and — I love ‘im. Okay, uh, I know people are also wondering if we’re going to get potential birthdays for like Corvus, Terry, Karim...?
A: If you send me the birthday list people are hoping for—
W: Yeah!
A: I will see if we can work on it. And some of that is the idea that people like being able to celebrate their favourite characters and things like that, so we owe them figuring some of that stuff out, and we will.
W: Yeah, okay. I’ll send you — I’ll send you the list. I don’t think there’s too many, but I might be forgetting someone, so I’ll double check and then I’ll send it over.
A: Okay.
W: Okay, awesome.
A: Also, I feel like if you’re an Earthblood elf, there might be some other day for your birthday, I don’t know what it is. Like not seed day—
W: —like sapling day—yeah!
A: Something that’s like....
W: Sprout day, maybe?
A: Yeah.
W: That’s cute. Okay, so this is a question from my friend, um...
A: Sprouting, or something? I dunno. Something—you know what I mean?
W: Yeah. No, the — I love the little worldbuilding stuff. So, we know Harrow’s in the bird, and it’s something that Viren at least attempted and knew maybe had a chance at working, but when he shows up in season 6, it doesn’t really get touched on, was there like a reason for that on Viren’s end, or was it just not the story focus?
A: Sorry, when who shows up in season six?
W: When Viren shows up, like when he goes back to Katolis, he doesn’t tell anyone—
A: Oh, oh! Right.
W: —about the bird.
A: Like, should he have confessed about that?
W: Yeah.
A: I don’t know, I think his corest confession was, it really had to do with his guilt around Soren and what happened, but I — I mean, I assume had like things not unraveled, he would have eventually said like I have something I must tell King Ezran, I—I don’t know. But—but it’s hard.
W: Mmhm. It also could’ve sounded too fantastical and convenient, like he might’ve been, are they even going to believe me? Because of course this would be something they would want to believe, are they going to believe me? Or was he unconfident that it worked, or?
A: Yeah. I don’t know. He’s already in pretty big trouble, would he try to tell a guard, or say “I need to talk to King Ezran” and get rejected. That might’ve been happening. It’s possible that he was like “I can’t tell you, because you’ll think I’m mad, but I need to talk to King Ezran” and he just never got the chance, so. But I love that your questions and some of these questions are really motivated by people really putting themselves in the head and heart of these characters in the moment, like what would they think about, what are they carrying, how do they carry it, how do they unload it, y’know?
W: Yeah.
A: Cause there’s another answer which is like, it was just not the right time to get into it [W laughs] but — but — I think if one of the writers had said, “you know, I think this would really be on Viren’s mind, even if he doesn’t say it, we need to have some — something we can point to that he said something to a guard or whatever,” like, and I think that would’ve been — I would’ve been very receptive to that idea, if someone had said something, ‘cause I — I do like things where even if you don’t understand what they are at that moment, that later you’re like “Okay, that — that tells me — I understand now that I have the better vantage point what that — what was happening there.”
W: Well, I think even like that’s something that the show does really well a lot of the time, in terms of that like recontextualization, or looking back and being like “oh, that’s what that was that random, throwaway line in season one or two was about” and then we get to kind of connect the dots, so I think it’s a testament to the character writing that they all do feel so lived in, in the moment, um.
A: Yeah.
W: Alright, so this is maybe an easier question.
A: Okay.
W: Do you — what is your favourite Dragon King character design?
A: [laughs] I — I mean yeah, if I said bearded Callum, I’d be in big trouble, right?
W: I love the beard. He just looks like my brother-in-law, so I was like, that’s fine.
A: Um. Let’s see. I’m trying to think. I mean, part of what I love about Luna Devorans is again like, Hanna [Hofer, character designer] really reawakened this character for us. Like I think we might have found our way to Luna and the Luna storyline, but, you know, Hanna had held onto this character and the idea that he could be a really intriguing, you know. I don’t know, it’s — so I’m gonna say that because I — Hanna’s drawings and designs were what instigated a lot of the story and a lot of the ideas, like “Oh, yes, interesting things can happen with this guy.”
W: Yeah. Yeah, I’m super excited for him. He reminds me a lot of Kasef and Karim, so I’m just — but again, on a much more maybe powerful, competent scale, so I’m like that’s really exciting. I suppose my final question would be is there anything that you think has really influenced Dragon Prince in terms of like, inspirations? I know whenever I engage with Shakespeare, I end up thinking about Dragon Prince. Is there anything like that for you, where like maybe Lord of the Rings or Shakespeare or?
A: So I don’t know if I’m correct or not when I say this, but I — my recollection from reading the plays of Arthur Miller and Tennessee Williams was that Arthur Miller, there’s a lot of similarity in my mind just cause they’re contemporary, and I’m way out of my canon in terms of like, I’m sure there are academic opinions on this, but my simplified view was that Arthur Miller had a slightly moralistic universe where outcomes were kind of almost determined by his understanding of a moral structure in the universe, and Tennessee Williams did not. It was very much centred in characters and heart and something tragic could happen to someone who didn’t deserve it, and something wonderful might happen to someone who didn’t deserve it, but people’s feelings were the — were the deepest truth, not the morality, not a core morality of the universe. Which is not to say that morality didn’t play a role or you know, truth —
W: People’s motivations.
A: —and virtue and vice didn’t play out, but that idea to me is something that plays into the universe of Xadia, which is like is — is there — and for me, in Xadia, the moral universe exists through the truth in the hearts of the characters who are fighting for it to be that universe. So it’s more, in a way it’s more Tennessee Williams, but our characters on some level, a lot of our core characters are driven for it to be a better universe, and that’s just, you know, something I like. You know, I have always tried, you know, I reject the despair of fate in the kind of most negative sense that you can’t do anything to change fate, and so that’s to me like the core of epics and great stories are — and this is very Lord of the Rings — but it’s characters who are small and alone, or small in number, believing they can change everything if they fight — it’s worth fighting for, they can try, and maybe they can change everything. And that, in the case of The Dragon Prince, some of it is changing the waves of generational violence that are coming down, the conflicts that are being passed down, like resisting that and fighting through it, and so I don’t know, that’s, that’s um — so yeah a bit of Lord of the Rings, maybe a bit of what I perceive as the tension between Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller dramatically.
W: Okay, yeah. I was just seeing a production of Othello.
A: Yeah.
W: So obviously Iago was making me think of Aaravos, of like the liar who is pitting everyone, and whatever and stuff.
A: Well, the Bible and mythology come in, too.
W: Oh, yeah!
A: Again, very like...
W: You guys sneak a lot of Egyptian mythology in there.
A: Oh, okay.
W: Like Ibis, and Thoth.
A: I mean, mythology’s always interesting. In ninth grade, we had to read “The Centaur” by—did you ever read that?
W: No, but I’ve heard of it.
A: John Updike’s “The Centaur” and it’s — again, I’m recalling my ninth grade reading of this, but it’s um, kind of a parallel story of, and I don’t even know if it’s Cheron or Chiron, but the centaur who’s a teacher in a school, who is the centaur, but it’s like metaphorically, and it’s sort of like we go back and forth between these characters and sometimes the teacher is the centaur — it’s very odd, but it’s a deeper, modern exploration of kind of some mythological themes, and I found it very powerful, and it said here’s something modern, a modern story, but we’re going to like connect it so that the echoes and themes go back two thousand years, and you go “oh that’s, that’s crazy, that’s so interesting.” You know? I don’t know. So... yeah.
W: Yeah, I think it speaks to that — how Dragon Prince layers itself both in like a history level of the world, like Aditi and Janai and Ezran and the Orphan Queen, but also just like between the modern day stories that the characters are going through and how they all kind of interconnect with similar themes and contrasts and stuff. Well, that’s everything for today, so, thank you so much!
A: Okay.
W: I think we’ve hit our time. But as always, fantastic to chat with you. Thank you so much.
A: Likewise, I — it’s enjoyable, but also like, you always give me tons to think about and a sense for almost like, here’s an area you should be mining, and it’s like “oh yeah, write that down” [W laughs] “circle that part of the map or the story” and it’s like yeah, you’re right, that’s really — I love our conversations, thank you.
Saw people talking about this article on Twitter and hadn’t seen anything about it here so! My highlights from it. Nothing terribly new, but confirmation that adult Ezran does NOT have a voice actor yet! And that Netflix has not said no!
I do respect Ehasz for his work. But his idea that Zuko could play the same role in Azula's life that Iroh played in his is like the Titanic hitting an iceberg on an obvious problem. The problem is that Zuko, by the end of the show's third season, had already played a role in Azula's life like Ozai's role in Zuko's life. Yes, Ozai had disfigured Zuko's face and banished him from the Fire Nation with a nearly impossible mission, but with his uncle and his crew and ship. And what did Zuko do for Azula? He betrayed her, he shamed her in front of their father (read: the only family member who gave her any positive reinforcement), he went over to her enemies and helped them destroy her country and mutilate her father on spiritual level of existence. Finally, with the help of Katara, he stripped her of her title, stripped her of her will, disgraced her in front of the entire country, beat her up by taking advantage of her weakness - mental breakdown, and finally locked her up in a madhouse on a distant island under heavy guard like a The Count of Monte Cristo. So how can Zuko play any positive role in her life after that? Hell, Ozai didn't treat Zuko as cruelly as Zuko treated Azula. Ozai at least kept Zuko free. The most that can be thought of here is that Azula will give up on revenge on Zuko after Zuko has already suffered at least some punishment.
It is normal to develop some emotional attachment to fictional characters in a TV show or a book. It is not nice of him to use that attachment to keep his show going, to keep making profits.
This is not the first time a show creator does this. They add beautiful moments with the couples that we love to keep us obsessed and asking for more. And there we go falling for this manipulative trick. I’m so glad I found that tweet by Alexandria. Be conscious of this people and have a little bit of pride in yourselves. Don’t let them use you to keep making more money.
Seven seasons was more than enough to develop a great story with a satisfying ending. I’m sorry but I hope Netflix won’t greenlight more. Creators and producers need to stop doing this.
