#antitransmasc

[intersexfairy]

"T makes you a mansplainer" so true! i never shut up about how much i love men and being a man. like have you seen men? especially trans and intersex men? they're literally the meaning of life. some of the most beautiful beings on this planet. i could listen to them talk forever. what? you meant to insult me? oh well haha that sounds like a you problem. anyway i love testosterone. poison? more like self love potion. i love me.

[sorin-sunchild]

Ok last post about this but here's some simple points that it's imperative you read and understand if you genuinely care about trans people especially as one yourself;

A) No sex or gender is virtuous or sinful by default. It's a persons words and actions which determine what kind of person they are. Leave this 'innate sin' Catholic bs at the door and send the pedestal you're forcing trans fems to sit on out with it.

B) Therefore any trans person can be transphobic, transmisogynistic or transandrophobic including if they're amongst the group targeted by the intersectional terms. All of these types of bigotry are unacceptable, regardless of your personal perceived impact on yourself and others. Nobody should be subject to any kind of bigotry.

C) This does not mean ALL members of X group are Y kind of bigots but it also doesn't mean that no X group members are Y kind of bigots. It's good to be careful of these lines of thinking in anyone if we want to get rid of it but see point A.

D) Holding individuals accountable and opposing the general ideology of transmisogyny, transandrophobia and general transphobia (including nonbinaryphobia/exorsexism and transmedicalism) is more affective than demonising a whole group based on their identity. If members are radicalised or bigoted already, they're not changing their minds because you yelled at them to kill themselves nor are they unworthy of redemption.

E) Listening to people directly about the bigotry they face is the key to understanding bigotry you might not face yourself.

F) Trans unity is the tool we need to craft a fortress so strong we can weather any storm but it won't work if we believe that's enemies in our own lines.

G) Using female-orientated insults towards trans mascs is still misogynistic. Using male-orientated insults towards trans women is still transmisogynistic. Telling anyone to kill themselves for existing loudly and in a way you disapprove of, puts you in the wrong automatically. Telling someone or a whole group to kill themselves also invalidates anything else you wish to say before or after said statement.

H) Failure to understand any of this means you are helping no groups, or even yourself, instead you are likely contributing to trans harm. Including harm to the groups you are most personally invested in helping.

Equality doesn't mean making the oppressed the oppressors and it sure as hell doesn't mean the oppressed oppressing each other. Stop doing the TERFs jobs for them.

[mybitakes]

there's like wayyyy too many people doing pedo apologia on twitter/tumblr and branding it as trans activism. like it's becoming way too prevalent where someone genuinely makes a post about how it's some big problem that a trans person who was a groomer is being pushed offline (most of the times they just moved to be a weirdo on another site).

there's both an advocacy for them to stay with a platform in our communities and a weaponization of their existence in certain trans movements to tear down the people within them. it's embarassing and shows your lack of care for victims (and yes this still applies if you're a victim too, you're not incapable of doing pdfile apologia).

genuinely I feel like most of yall see victims as pawns and not as humans with real emotions and feelings. it is also really weird to try to paint a group as broad as transfeminism and people who are talking about antitransmasculinity as predators because of this. you are basically trying to paint anyone who speaks out about specific trans oppression as evil. genuinely what is the conclusion we hope to get out of this? I know that it is silence this is me being rhetorical

[mybitakes]

My opinions on whether having a connection to "womanhood" is theyfab/harmful behaviour and how we can reconstruct the conversations so we can address exorsexism, transmi/sogyny, and anti-transmasculinity accurately

note: tme (ot "t/me") is being used to describe someone who does not go through transfem specific oppression, I know there are criticisms for this but I do not believe in forcing myself to fit into frameworks that were not originally created with me in mind, it is a losing battle. I am also aware serano has said she does think that other trans people can incidentally experience transmisogyny, however, most of her work and actions communicate to me that this term still is not meant to include all trans people. It is her term so I am fine with that and am expending my energy into other frameworks. so please do not get preachy to me in the comments about needing to be tme/tma critical, I am NOT against the critique of those terms, FARRRRRR from it actually.

I really do not understand conversations that bludgen trans people who feel a connection to womanhood who are not women. most of the arguments I see are like "oh well there's people that use it as a weapon against trans women to say they have privilege", and that's not right, but there's still nothing harmful or incorrect with feeling a connection to womanhood in general. I see people getting upset at random

people who have shown no signs of that behaviour and are purely talking about their own identity and experiences. a lot of people in this discourse view non-binary t/me people as if we have to be either diet trans men or quirky cis women. it only works to flattens our experiences so any points we make can be easier to dismiss.some of us do still id as women because we are multigender. To be clear I do not trust people...

...who use agab language to convey this message because that is too reminiscent of "afab housing" and "afab only spaces", but the experience of relating to who you were before transition is not bad. it's very normal and not an uncommon experience. the problem is the conversation around this treats being coerced/forced into being a woman as a matter of personal opinion and is watered down to an essential part of being assigned female (ie being assigned female must mean you have a connection to womanood, or the good ole' female socialization). I think it's imperative that when this happens we make it clear that these experiences are a result of systematic factors, not an inherent, divine connection that comes with having a vagina.

In an attempt to combat socialization theory, we start harassing trans men who point out that they cannot easily just access male privilege by transitioining and that sometimes medically transitioning is inaccessible to them. the hostility people have when it is said that trans men do not immediately get granted privilege is a result of feminist frameworks still being largely created by cis people and based on cissexist and binaristic ideas of society. to be oppressed for your gender is to be a woman for many. for some reason pointing out that trans men are forced into womanhood and are denied this access to male privilege is infantilization and just another day of "theyfab's theyfabing"...instead of calling out that the act of being forced into womanhood is an oppression in and of itself and that is something most if not all trans men have to experience daily. pointing this out is not a desire to be considered women, but to acknowledge that patriarchy doesn't exist as simply "man oppress woman" when we actually put the work in to acknowledge trans people. I think many people forget, and this includes the divine femalehood afabs, that being forced into being a woman and being oppressed for not falling in line is systematic. it does not matter if you personally do not identify with being "female" or not, it's going to be forced on you regardless. this is violent, even for cis women. "womanhood", on the other hand, is a term mostly used to describe something personal. it's only natural to have most trans men be averse to identifying with womanhood when most of the times the ways they find out they are actually men is by not identifying with typical things from girlhood in the first place.

I also hate when people say "only afabs cling to their assigned sex" because that's not true and I dont think cling is the right word either. I know many straight trans women who still identify with the community they had with gay men and still frequent their spaces. and also, when we are talking about being oppressed and forced into womanhood, I don't think it's hard to understand why someone isn't just going to fully dissociate from the way they were treated before transitioning as if it's that simple. many are still being treated like women even during their transition. even when they pass, the government in america is actively making legislation so that you cannot pass in legal contexts at all, many are already in that stage in other countries and are fighting tooth and nail to finally get out of it. and then you look at trans t/me's in third world countries that have even stricter/patriarchal laws policing gender. it's baffling to me seeing the things that is reported over there and the most whitest trans person from america will still think it's as simple as not identifying with womanhood and gaining privilege when you transition. many do not even get the choice to "opt out". period.

It also did not escape me that many people view the existence of certain things affecting t/me trans people as a declaration that trans women never go through x thing. if we can understand being forced into gender as a child is inherently oppressive (even for cis kids), we can understand that regardless of that childs real identity the outcomes of "socialization" and privilege isn't inherent to assigned gender. if we can understand that being forced into gender is oppressive, i do not see how trans girls being forced into boyhood is a privilege when most of it is reinforced with violence and is an oppressive experience in and of itself. the forcing of gender on trans people is not a privilege, so the existence of trans people saying they were forced to be women and were (and still are) being hurt by that is not registered as offensive nor does it come off as theyfab to me. but I understand that for many it is transphobic to not ignore the trans part of how most of us experience gender and just pretend we go through things exactly like cis people.

also easiest way to tell on yourself that you are harassing people for not distancing themselves enough from "womanhood" by whatever standards you've come up with, and NOT because you want transmisogyny to stop is to misgender them and call them theyfabs. I feel like we have become so desensitized to people misgendering others and calling them theygabs that we forget that those things are inherently bad and transphobic. they are not oopsie poopsies. and they for sure are not liberating shit.

[sorin-sunchild]

My gender is soooo valid until I: don't want to be called girl/sister even if the user sees it as positive or neutral, say I don't like to wear skirts or dresses, say I don't like to wear makeup, express interest in anything traditionally masculine, are the 'dom' in my relationship, use 'for men' products, don't want to use the women's bathroom even quickly or express any dissatisfaction with my female body or femininity.

Then I'm toxic, a misogynist, a transmisogynist, a predator, unsafe to woman and completely invalid until I embrace being feminine or at least androgynous (but in a femme way).

[sorin-sunchild]

Hey, you cannot sit there and say that masc women are cool and can use he/him pronouns and still be women whilst denying masculinity to those who don't identify as (just) women by indicating you view them as women only or that they're being toxic for wanting to be men or just masc without womanhood so they need to embrace feminity to be really valid.

Nor can you say that and deny womanhood to masc trans women/femmes. Nor can you deny womanhood or masculinity to multigender people.

Kinda looks bad on you if you do ngl. Kinda looks like you only support cis women being gnc. Kinda stinks of transmisogny and double standards.

[mybitakes]

TW RAPE JOKES, FORCED PREGNANCY

New white trans twitter discourse of the day:

should we be allowed to make jokes about raping people as long as they’re not actually going to get pregnant? 🤔

[sorin-sunchild]

The fact is I don't necessarily not agree that 'transandrophobia' is a not a great term. I don't necessarily not agree that many who use it are not good at making sure they're not being transmisogynistic or more careful with their phrasing. I don't necessarily not agree that people have said some wild shit that just isn't true and then used that tag. I don't necessarily not agree that 'transphobia' encompasses much of what is being talked about as 'transandrophobia'. I just think that there's a lot of bad faith interpretations of those who use that tag and a great deal of unfair 'shushing' as if there aren't any issues that specifically target trans masc's when there are.

I might start using 'Antitransmasc' and derivatives though. I personally don't want to be associated with a word that people see as indicating I'm a transmisogynist when I'm not, even if I disagree with their assessment that 'uses transandrophobia = hates trans women'. I'm a coward who doesn't want everything I say discarded by a huge group of people because of a single word I choose to use to describe something.

'Antitransmasc' feels...closer to the intended meaning anyway? Clearer somehow? Focusing on the trans masc bit? Like I know that it's supposed to be transandro-phobia not trans-androphobia but that's not the way it's often read so of course it's being interpreted wrong.

The 'intended meaning' of course is just to highlight experiences that primarily are trans masc issues (the 'lost daughters' and 'lost lesbians' narrative, 'mutilating your perfect feminine body', being convinced you were sexually assaulted and that's why you're trans, being SA'd and often impregnated to emasculate and degender you and any talk which specifically places hatred onto the person for transitioning into manhood/masculinity e.g. 'T makes you ugly and violent', insults about phalloplasty cock, 'zippertits', 'everyone is going to feel unsafe about you now and that's your fault for choosing to transition' etc).

Like to me calling those things simply transphobia indicates all trans people go through those experiences to me, I dunno, that's just how I interpret that word I guess.

Bigotries, prejudice and general hatred towards marginalized groups doesn't always have the same level of impact. It would be stupid to ignore that transmisogy has the biggest impact here. That's because misogyny itself shapes so much of society and how society then decides to view all issues of gender. It's even misogyny (not misandry) which has created 'transandrophobia'. But that doesn't mean that what is happening towards trans people who aren't trans femmes is in some way acceptable, less worthy of being brought up and only talked about to 'one up' or disguise hatred of trans femmes? That's really a stretch in logic and just deeply ignorant.

So yeah, maybe transandrophobia is a bad term but what it describes is real. I think a big issue here is that the tag is full of so much fighting and bad faith from all sides when it should have just been 'this is what happened to me because I'm trans masc' and that's it.

My last note is though that I saw one person cite the inherent transmisogny of 'transandrophobia theorists' because 'they are against the use of tme/tma' and uh yeah sorry that's a stretch because there are valid criticisms of those terms often by nonbinary and intersex individuals who also don't deserve to be ignored so that's maybe not a great reason to cite.