What do you think of Shisui in The Apothecary Diaries?
Hi!
I love her, she is my favorite character <3 She stole the season as the (fake) villain she is!
Shisui is a foil to both Maomao and Jinshi, which is why their respective confrontations with her in the finale are them facing themselves.
Maomao and Shisui are both daughters of important politicians. Lahan and Shisu are respectively the fox and the tanuki of the imperial palace and they are foils themselves. Lahan was the heir of the La clan, but was considered unfit because of his disability. Shisu was instead adopted by the main family of the Shi clan because of his ability. Whatever the case they rose to power because of their intelligence and had their life marked by a tragic love. Lahan left his love waiting for too long, while Shisu waited for his love far too long. Maomao and Shisui are the fruits of these complicated loves and have had opposite upbringings as a result. On the one hand Maomao is technically a noble, but since she was born outside of a wedding/when Lahan was absent she is brought up in poverty in the pleasure district. There she still receives love and care by the courtesans and Loumen. On the other hand Shisui is a noble, but she is brought up in a cold and controlling environment. She is shown no parental love and is treated like a doll and a weapon of revenge.
Superficially their lives may seem opposite, but the two girls are actually quite similar. Both suffer the consequences of an absent father and an abusive mother, but they still love their parents and work to give them as much happiness and peace as they can. Season 1's finale is Maomao's scheme to solve her father and mother's tragic love. Season 2's finale is Shisui's scheme to give peace to both her father and mother. Both send off their parents by dancing on a roof. Maomao's dance is a celebration of life, while Shisui's is about accepting death.
So, why is Shisui so important for Maomao? By meeting Shisui, Maomao really meets a different version of herself. Shisui is just as smart as Maomao and just like the apothecary she has been conditioned to repress her feelings. And yet, no matter how much Shisui appears as an uncaring doll she can't help, but to love her family, to love people, to love the world. Maomao is the same. She keeps saying she is selfish, cold, unfeeling. She insists she only minds her own safety and business. And yet, she is always the first to jump into the fire for others. Shisui kind of makes this part of Maomao clear to her, as Maomao's thoughts in her last meeting with her convey:
"You should just run. Just throw it all away and run with Suirei. Politics, your parents, the clan, just throw it all away. I don't care about other people, either. I'm the most important person to me. Do you realize how much I went through after being dragged here? But, still...Why can't I stop myself from reaching out to her?"
Maomao and Shisui are both selfish, right? And yet neither of them can't help, but to look out for others.
Jinshi and Shisui are two nobles who are trapped in their respective roles. Jinshi is trapped as the Crown Prince/Imperial Brother and tries to escape this reality by becoming Jinshi the eunuch. Shisui is trapped as Loulan the Concubine/the Shi Clan heir and tries to escape this reality by becoming Shisui the maiden. Both act as if they are of humbler origins to find true bonds outside of their status. Still, both know these masks are only temporary.
At the same time, I would say they have an opposite relationship with their "fake identities". Jinshi's personality as the "beautiful eunuch" is in itself a shallower version of himself. It is only through his relationship with Maomao that his childish, but also more noble self starts coming to light only to truly bloom when he steps into his role of Imperial Brother to save her. In Shisui's case, it is the opposite. It is Shisui's personality as "Loulan the Concubine", which is the lie. She presents herself as a shallow beauty only interested in clothes and fashion, when her real self is far more modest and in love with bugs. She acts as her mother's doll, when she is far smarter and a potential better leader than Shenmei. So, differently from Jinshi, Shisui's true self can only shine when she escapes her "Loulan" persona to embrace who she truly is (as Tamamo).
Finally, both Jinshi and Shisui are blamed for their parents' actions. Jinshi is blamed for the Previous Emperor's sins because he looks so much like him. Shisui is blamed for Shenmei and Shisu's crimes, even if she sabotages the rebellion and saves Suirei, the kids and as many of her people as possible. This shared tragedy is why Jinshi and Shisui's final meeting is all about solving these generational conflict.
On the one hand Shisui fulfills Shenmei's wish to "hurt" Jinshi, who looks just like the man who refused her and broke her pride. On the other hand Jinshi welcomes Shenmei's hate and anger by taking responsibility for the Previous Emperor. By doing so both Shisui and Jinshi really free themselves from their respective curses. Shisui fulfills her mother's revenge in her own way. A revenge without real victims. Jinshi aquires a scar, which sets him apart from the Previous Emperor. Finally, his face is his own. This is highlighted by Maomao's words:
"Master Jinshi is too beautiful. That causes ripples in the heart of the people around him, making them focus only on his beauty. But Master Jinshi's true essence isn't flamboyant, like his appearance. He's much more solid and practical".
Jinshi isn't defined by his beauty, but by his heart like the kindness he showed Shisui by accepting her scar.
So, Shisui forces Maomao to accept her own heart and Jinshi to step into his role. She scars both in a sense:
She scars Maomao psychologically, as she leaves the apothecary to grapple with feelings of love and grief
She scars Jinshi physically by forever changing his face and "ruining" his beauty
In short, Shisui embodies a trial for both our protagonist. It is a painful trial which ends with losses. Maomao loses a loved one and Jinshi loses his comfortable mask as the "beautiful eunuch". Still, it is also a trial that helps both grow up. In a sense it marks a passage from "adolescence" to "adulthood".
Maomao goes through an adolescence phase where she enjoys Xiaolan and Shisui's company, which comes to an end with Shisui's disappearance.
Jinshi traps himself in an eternal adolescence by taking the medicine to suppress his sexuality and fake himself an eunuch. The Shi clan's rebellion forces him to grow up.
The end result is that both Maomao and Jinshi mature and find themselves closer as a result.
Not only that, but their bond does bring life. Like, it is not by chance their kiss/sex scene gets interrupted by the kids being reborn. It is symbolic of Maomao and Jinshi's relationship (symbolical sex) saving the children (creating new life). Once again this is something both Maomao and Jinshi do thanks to Shisui.
On the one hand Shisui asked Maomao to care for the kids and help them when the medicine brings them back to life (immediate care / microchosm). On the other hand Shisui asked Jinshi to forgive those that have already died once (political scenario / macrochosm). So, it is only thanks to both Maomao and Jinshi that the kids survive and can have a future. Symbolically it is Shisui the one who entrusts the couple with this future. At the same time, it turns out Shisui herself is one of the kids who is given a second chance of life thanks to our two protagonists.
The silver hairpin is a metaphor for Jinshi and Maomao's bond, as Jinshi clearly gives it to Maomao as a token of love. Later, Maomao gives Shisui the hairpin and the object ends up deflecting the bullet and saving Shisui's life. This is a perfect commentary to Shisui as a character.
Shisui chooses to love everyone even if she really does not have to. Actually, it would be easier to leave behind her family and her people and to escape with only Suirei or even on her own. Still, Shisui chooses to stay and to die out of love. It is important she isn't really planning to survive. She plans to ensure everyone's survival, but her own. And yet, her friendship with Maomao saves her and grants her freedom. The girl who chooses love is saved by love.
As a final note, Shisui's rebirth is commented by several motifs.
First of all, there is her insect motif. Throughout the series, Shisui compares herself to an insect, specifically crickets. She is scared of becoming like the "cricket wife" of her horror story who "consumes" her husband. This is why she keeps taking abortion medicine. At the same time, she sees herself as an insect that has to die, so that the kids can live. She is the one generation evil who won't survive the winter, but will ensure the young ones' survival. Well, "Loulan" dies, but "Tamamo" is reborn and chooses a cicada as her symbol. Cicadas are symbolic of rebirth and are insects, which spend the winter hidden, so that they can start singing in the summer.
Secondly, there is her tanuki/fox motif. She spends her life as the Tanuki's daughter, changes her looks like a tanuki and goes to face Jinshi looking like a tanuki. Still, she herself is far more similar to a fox, as Jinshi calls her a fox twice. In the end, she can leave the tanuki behind and fully embrace her "fox self" as Tamamo, whose name comes from Tamamo No Mae, a fox spirit.
Finally, Shisui says goodbye to the viewers and the series twice. The two scenes are complete opposite and interesting to compare.
Shisui's first goodbye is her final dance under the snow. It is winter and she is in the mountains surrounded by snow. She is accepting the death of "Loulan", the Tanuki's daughter and the cricket who can't survive the winter.
Shisui's second goodbye is her send off, as she runs towards her new life. It is summer/spring and she is by the seaside, surrounded by water. She is reborn as her new self "Tamamo", a fox and a cicada who sings in the summer.
Two sends off, one rooted in death and the other in life, one tragic and the other hopeful. One is fake (a mask) and the other is true (her real self). It is really the perfect goodbye for a character so rooted in duality.
What are your thoughts on the takes about one of Charlie's flaws being a lack of empathy for others?
Hi,
it depends on what people mean for "lack of empathy". If they mean she does not care or that she is unable to empathize, then it is wrong. If they mean Charlie is emotionally immature, which can lead her to be self-centered and sometimes insensitive, then yes.
Since the topic is this I will add a small moment that showcases Charlie's empathy that I have barely seen discussed.
In episode 2X6 Vaggi has a little panic attack as she remembers Lute ripping her wings. Instinctively Vaggi touches her shoulder:
Notice that here the focus is also on Charlie watching Vaggi.
Afterwards Charlie is surprised Vaggi just leaves without trying to talk with Carmilla again. At this point the Princess touches her shoulder like Vaggi did to try and understand why her girlfriend is behaving this way:
She is shown deep in thoughts, as she walks away from Carmilla's building:
Until she has a realization:
In short, here Charlie is able to understand Vaggi was remembering the moment she lost her wings. She does it by observing and replicating Vaggi's body language. After this moment, Charlie organizes the little apology party for Vaggi, which leads to the two of them making up and to Charlie ending her spiral.
So, Charlie can be self-centered and insensitive, as she is for the majority of the season. Still, she can also be observant and insightful and is able to let got of grudges for the sake of the people around her.
She has shown it over and over in season 1 and in season 2 this is the first step towards the end of her spiral. It is true Vaggi is the one who helps Charlie overcome it, but Charlie herself creates the conditions for this to happen. She does it because she is able to observe Vaggi and to empathize with her.
Can you do an analysis on Piss (a love song) and how it culminates to Cherri bomb and Sir Pentious’s relationship.
Hi,
yes to other season 2 songs analysis :P
PISS (A LOVE SONG)
Piss (A Love Song) is Sir Pentious and Cherri's love song, so it explores two topics:
Character-wise it delves into Sir Pentious and Cherri's relationship
Theme-wise, it comments the theme of "love" in Hazbin Hotel
BLUE AND RED
Piss's main visual motif is the use of blue and red. These two colors are complementary and they are used in two ways.
On the one hand blue and red convey Sir Pentious and Cherri's compatibility (microcosm).
Sir Pentious is blue, an angel (Winner), night (golden nights in Sir Pentious's first stanza) and water (the rain and the fact he sings on a bridge):
Cherri is red, a demon (Sinner), day (golden days in Cherri's first stanza) and fire (her bombs and explosions):
The colors also describe their hot and cold relationship, as they fell for each other while fighting:
Cherri Bomb: Turf war!
What's the score?
Sir Pentious: How the hell'd she get on board?
Egg Boiz, kill that vandal!
Cherri Bomb: Hope you like your minions scrambled!
Egg Boi: Oh, shit!
Cherri Bomb: Get lit!
Sir Pentious: Get your punk ass off my ship!
Cherri Bomb: If you say so, gotta go!
Egg Boi: Oh my God, it's gonna blow!
Cherri Bomb: Another exciting Sin City night
This sheila's blastin' your ass away!
Sir Pentious: Glorious bloodshed under neon lights
I will destroy you at last!
On the other hand blue and red are the colors of Heaven and Hell (macrocosm):
They are two opposite Kingdoms which are looking for some kind of reconciliation, exactly like Sir Pentious and Cherri want to meet each other again.
SIR PENTIOUS AND CHERRI: FALLING AND ASCENDING
Sir Pentious and Cherri's love is a redemptive bond for both.
On the one hand Sir Pentious ascends because of his love for Cherri:
He loves her (and the Hazbin Crew) so much that he overcomes his innate cowardice and acts to save everyone. His major Sin is that he lets a misogynistic serial killer hurt women without taking action. So, his redemption is that he acts to prevent a misogynistic mass murderer from hurting the woman he loves. As a result Sir Pentious reaches Heaven, where he becomes a symbolic messenger (an "angel" :P) between Heaven and Hell:
Emily: I invited him. I figured if anyone can help us make these decisions, it'd be best to have an actual Hell expert.
Sir Pentious: Well, I'm not quite a Hell expert, but, uh, yes, I'm happy to help.
His wish to find a peaceful solution to Heaven and Hell's struggle obviously stems from the fact his loved ones and Cherri especially are still in Hell. Sir Pentious becomes a "bridge" between the two realms, so that he can meet Cherri again in the future. Hence why he sings to her while on a physical bridge:
On the other hand Cherri falls for Sir Pentious, which motivates her to aim for redemption, so that she can meet him again:
Piss emphasizes it through Cherri both dramatically falling as she sings about her feelings:
But also climbing up in a physical attempt to "be closer" to Pentious:
This psychological process is perfectly described by her letting herself fall only for her own explosions to push her up on the top of the building.
This is Sir Pentious and Cherri's relationship in a nutshell. They both fall for each other:
Cherri Bomb and Sir Pentious: Can ya feel me fallin'?
Cherri Bomb: Though I don't know if it's love (Sir Pentious: Could this be love?)
But this fall is what lifts them up towards redemption, happiness and positive change.
HEAVEN AND HELL: LONGING FOR HARMONY
Sir Pentious and Cherri's relationship is characterized as one of fighting, but also longing:
Sir Pentious and Cherri Bomb: I know I tried to kill you
And you tried to kill me too
You blew a hole right through my soul
While I was beating the piss out of you!
Beatin...
The piss...
Cherri Bomb: Out of you...
Thematically it mirrors the relationship between Heaven and Hell, which is why the two characters reference their respective realms in their first stanzas:
Sir Pentious: These Elysian nights
Alone in the golden skies
Lost in a memory of how it used to be
When it was only you and me
Cherri Bomb: Can you hear me callin'
From way the fuck down here?
Those golden days of brawlin'
Were the best of all my years!
Obviously Heaven and Hell are not in love :P, but they too need to overcome their conflict and to integrate, just like Sir Pentious and Cherri. As a matter of fact the two Kingdoms are opposite archetypes:
Heaven (blue) is the persona and the superego - it puts importance on morality and ideals and tries to always appear perfect, by hiding its worst traits
Hell (red) is the shadow and the id - it is chaotic and violent, it lets its most irrational traits rule, but it is also full of energy and hidden potential
So, Heaven and Hell are complementary and there can't be one without the other. Both are needed to find harmony, which means they should learn from each other and integrate. Just like our snake and our bombs' lover! This also fits season 2, as a whole. After all, the conflict between Heaven and Hell is furthered by a failed integration between Vox (blue) and Alastor (red):
At the same time, war is avoided thanks to the teamwork of other "red and blue" characters.
Baxter (blue) and Sir Pentious (red) are clearly meant to be Vox and Al's foils. They used to be partners, but eventually separated because of a disagreement. Still, they work together once again and through mind (Baxter) and heart (Sir Pentious) they manage to connect Heaven and Hell.
Vaggi (an angel) and Charlie (a demon) represent Heaven and Hell. They don't usually have a strong blue and red motif, but this season they acquire it in their most intimate moment. In Easy, Vaggi wears a blue towel/dress, while Charlie a red one. This fits, as the fallen angel and the Princess of Hell's integration is symbolically the most important one in the series. Even this season they are key to find peace through their shared dream of the Hazbin Hotel. The true starting spark that brings bigger changes.
Emily (blue + an angel + water) and Charlie (red + a demon + fire) are the two characters whose integration is the most important one this season. Both characters are the hope of their respective Kingdoms and their struggling to lead Heaven and Hell towards a better path rewards them both in the finale, where they join forces and voices.
Sir Pentious and Cherri fit among these blue and red couples and thematically underline this need for peace and reconciliation. This is why after war is avoided they get to speak with each other again:
And can now communicate through gifts and letters:
Their progress shows that Heaven and Hell are also now getting closer and are starting to heal.
(ONE) WINNER OR (TWO) LOSERS?
Sir Pentious and Cherri's bond in the song Piss (A Love Song) is meant to comment on the theme of "love" in general. In particular, is it better to be a lonely Winner or two Losers together?
Is it better Like You?
Emily: 'Cause no one here is like you
Not one remotely like you
You've got mystique
You're strange and unique
You'll make pals come hither
With every hiss and slither
Evеryone will like you
'Cause no one here is like you
Or Loser Baby?
Angel Dust: You're a loser, baby
Husk: A loser, but just maybe if we
Both: Eat shit together, things will end up differently
Piss's answer is that to be in Heaven has no real meaning, if you can't be with your loved ones. This is why Sir Pentious's lonely nights in Heaven are juxtaposed with his nights in Hell spent fighting Cherri:
Sir Pentious: These Elysian nights
Alone in the golden skies
Cherri Bomb: Another exciting Sin City night
This sheila's blastin' your ass away!
Sir Pentious and Cherri's relationship uses fights and violence as a metaphor for love and sex:
Sir Pentious: They say time heals all wounds
But the wounds are what I miss
'Cause every brush with death
Meant much more than a kiss
Cherri: I'm bored as fuck without you!
Are you bored without me, too?
I'm longing for just one night more
Of beating the piss out of you
Sir Pentious compares wounds with kisses and Cherri speaks of spending the night with Pentious... while beating the piss out of him :P
This is not important for Sir Pentious and Cherri's dynamic on a deeper level. They simply fall for each other while fighting, which makes perfect sense for Hell. Still, this metaphor of fighting/sex matters on a broader thematic level. Love and life can be hard, but ultimately it is still worth it to struggle together, even if it means to suffer and even hurt each other sometimes:
Sir Pentious and Cherri Bomb: The cuts are healed and scarrin'
Sir Pentious: But I still taste the blood (Cherri Bomb: I still taste your blood!)
It is better to be two losers in Hell, than a lonely winner in Heaven. It is better to feel and give "love" than to be isolated in a successful life without meaningful relationships.
PISS IS JUST A LOVE SONG
Piss is just what its title says: a love song :P
The title itself blinds together Sir Pentious and Cherri's different personalities.
From Sir Pentious's melodramatic behavior (a love song > they say time heals all wounds, but the wounds are what i miss > a ballad) to Cherri's crass irony (piss > beating the piss out of you > a punk rock song). And all these parts come together musically and lyrically in the finale, as their respective stanzas fuse:
Sir Pentious and Cherri Bomb: They say time heals all wounds
But the wounds are what I miss
And every brush with death
Meant much more than a kiss!
Can ya feel me fallin'?
Cherri Bomb: Though I don't know if it's love (Sir Pentious: Could this be love?)
Sir Pentious and Cherri Bomb: The cuts are healed and scarrin'
Sir Pentious: But I still taste the blood (Cherri Bomb: I still taste your blood!)
Sir Pentious and Cherri Bomb: I know I tried to kill you
And you tried to kill me too
You blew a hole right through my soul
While I was beating the piss out of you!
Beatin...
The piss...
Cherri Bomb: Out of you...
LOVE IN THE HELLAVERSE
Let me end this meta by saying I agree with @hamliet here. Cherrisnake is meant to be a simpler, but still thematically relevant foils to the three main ships.
Like Charlie and Vaggi, Cherri and Sir Pentious are a demon and an angel, whose love is bringing together Hell and Heaven
Like Angel and Husk, they start as Sinners who meet in Hell and motivate each other to become better until they can both find redemption
Like Lucifer and Lilith, they are currently separated, one in Hell and the other in Heaven, and can't meet physically
Even their relationship status is kind of a mix between all three. They have acknowledged their feelings for each other (Chaggi), but they have yet to start a proper relationship (Huskerdust) and are still not together physically (Lucilith). In a sense, they are developing the other ships' dynamics all together.
A part of me is worried that the show is going to keep making Charlie regress as a character while Vaggi and the others have growth. Because I've noticed that a significant part of Angel, Husk, and Vaggi's character development are done as a result of Charlie doing something that hurts them, which makes me worried Charlie might be more of an oblivious antagonist to her loved ones down the line and she's going to keep pushing them away as her inferiority complex overtakes her. Counterargument to this distressing thought, please?
Hi!
Well, this distressing thought of yours is easy to counter because... Charlie hurting her loved ones is definitely NOT why the characters are progressing (if anything, it is the opposite).
Vaggi - she gets the majority of her development in season 1 (not season 2); she gets it after SHE hurts Charlie and not the other way around. In season 2 she simply shows off her change by being able to help Charlie out this time around.
Angel - like Vaggi, he gets the majority of his development in season 1. What makes him evolve is his relationship with Husk, not Charlie. People tend to dramatize his conflict with Charlie in ep 4, but the cause of Angel's spiral in that episode is Valentino, not Charlie. In general, so far Charlie and Angel's arcs have been adjacent. It means they are clearly set up to be important for each other (probably in a specific moment), but have gone on on parallel rails. That is because Charlie is the protagonist of the A plot, while Angel of the B plot.
Husk - he is less important than Angel and Vaggi. Again, his arc so far has been mostly about Angel. In general, I think Husk so far is in the story for mainly two characters: Angel and Alastor.
In short, none of the three characters you mentioned got development cause Charlie hurt them. And let's not even get started on the characters that got development because Charlie helped them, like Lucifer and Pentious.
More importantly... Charlie is not in the story for the other characters, but other characters are in the story FOR Charlie.
So, nope, don't worry. Will Charlie struggle again? Yes, she will especially in the upcoming seasons that are apparently going to the heart of the story. This doesn't mean she won't grow up. Her growing up is the actual point of the story.
How do you feel about people’s frustration with Charlie not using her powers to solve the conflict with the Vees? A lot of critics think that as one of Hell’s supposedly strongest demons after Lucifer and the Sins, she should’ve been able to stop Vox and free Angel from Valentino, and her not doing so is seen as another example of shows supposedly bad writing and her being a bad protagonist. Can I get a rebuttal for this take too, as well as why Charlie not being the badass people want her to be helps her arc? I admit that I do wish to see her more badass side myself and hate seeing her get humiliated and fail all the time is a little degrading (especially with how she was forced to call Vox the strongest in Hell on live tv).
Hi,
sure, I can give you my two cents :)
1- Charlie is simply not a good fighter. Having power is different than knowing how to fight. Charlie dislikes violence hence she is not an expert at fighting. Season 1 final fight makes it obvious:
Exhibit A-Charlie is strong enough to disperse a flock of exorcists with one finger. Despite this, she is scared and fights defensively with her shield. If she knew how to apply her power in battle, she could potentially do much more damage.
Exhibit B-Charlie has more power than Adam, but she loses their one on one because he has more experience.
Let me highlight this does not apply only to Charlie. There are several characters that on paper are stronger than others. However, they fail to successfully use that power in battle.
Adam is more powerful than Alastor. However, Alastor is the better fighter to the point that if the Radio Demon were less prideful he could have defeated Adam in their early exchange. What fucks Alastor up is really his convinction he does not need an angelic weapon to face Adam.
Emily is a Seraphim, so she could potentially kill Vox with the snap of her fingers. However, Emily is a child (just like Charlie) and has never had to fight in her life. She is not a violent person and can't imagine to use her powers violently.
Abel is an archangel, which means he could one-shot Vox, like Adam did with Alastor. However, he is unsure of his abilities, so instead of proudly going into battle, he is left trembling and hiding.
Finally, an example from Helluva Boss. Andrealphus is a Goetia, which means he should be able to defeat the imps easily. However, he sucks at fighting, while Blitz's group has been making a living on their fighting abilities. So, they are able to embarrass him by kicking his ass.
2- Charlie has power, but she obviously struggles to tap into it. Once again, season 1 finale makes it obvious:
She is overpowered by Adam in their one on one, but when Adam attacks Lucifer, she is able to stop his attack with one fist. The implication is that Charlie has enough power to break Adam with one hand (which is precisely what Lucifer then proceeds to do). However, Charlie can't manifest this power at will (it is not that she CONSCIOUSLY loses her fight against Adam). She struggles to access it.
Why is that so? Well, it is part of her arc.
Charlie's powers are basically her jungian shadow aka the dark part of herself she is repressing. She usually manifests them when she is angry or grieving. In other words, until Charlie won't face all the complicated and ugly emotions she has been ignoring, she will never be able to fully manifest her potential. This struggle is once again set up in season 1:
Vaggie: Well, I mean... You're the princess of Hell.
Charlie: So?
Vaggie: So, you don't really use the power that comes with that, which I love about you, but maybe you can... I don't know, command a little more... Authority?
Charlie: [Whines] But that's so mean...!
Vaggie: It's not mean, exactly. It's... uh, aggressive kindness.
Charlie: Okay... I could be so aggressively kind to Angel's boss... That I convince him to let Angel spend more time at the hotel!
Vaggie: Sure, whatever gets you there, babe.
Here, Vaggi is right. Charlie needs to tap into her aggressivity and authority to succeed. The problem is that Charlie has a childish understanding of good and evil, so politeness =good and conflict = bad. It is very simplistic and detrimental to Charlie's success and growth. In short, Charlie's understanding of violence is set up to be challenged in the future.
All of this is well and good, but the examples I made are all about season 1. What about season 2?
There is one criticism that I think is fair, which is that season 2 does not explore the conflict between Charlie and violence. It kinda leaves it in the background, which is precisely why people are frustrated by Charlie not solving problems with violence. It seems like the story is ignoring that there is this pretty simple solution and is not addressing why Charlie would not consider it. At the same time, Charlie gaining a deeper understanding of her powers is part of her arc, but in season 2 she makes no progress.
That said, I think things should be watched at in context. I said several times now that season 2 is a season where the main plot and the main characters' arcs are put on hold. It is a season where a B plot (Vox) becomes an A plot. The writers used this season to expand on major supporting characters, the worldbuilding, the themes. In this way, they set-up the main characters for future development, but did not give it to them this season (Charlie, Vaggi, Angel, Lucifer and Alastor aka the main 5 are all set up to develop in the upcoming two seasons). I think this choice works for the story, but it is natural it would create frustration in some viewers 'cause we don't have the whole thing, but are consuming the story season after season.
That said, I think this flaw does not justify the majority of the criticism, which imo is in bad faith. After all, season 2 does make clear enough why violence can't be a solution.
SEASON 2 THEMES
The whole point of season 2 is to avoid a war between Heaven and Hell. The story also does a decent job at showing both that war can't be a solution, but also that the sinners' anger is understandable. The people of Hell are being subjected to a genocide for years, so it is no surprise they wish to feel vindicated, even if rationally this would only bring more pain to them, as well (Heaven would have most likely won the war).
In short, Charlie's problem is not really to defeat Vox, but to convince the people of Hell to give up war and to embrace her redemption ideology. Politically, she is presenting herself as a pacifist and a champion of sinners. How do you think public opinion would have reacted if Charlie just went and attacked Vox?
We don't even have to guess because the story gives us two examples:
Both Lucifer and Sera try to threaten Vox with their powers and Vox just takes these attempts and uses them to his advantage. He gets more power from angels trying to kill "the voice of the people". Sure, you could argue that killing Vox would have solved the problem. Would have, though? Sinners' anger would have grown even more and sooner or later someone else would have emerged to take Vox's place as the leader of the people.
It is also not what Charlie personally wants. To kill Vox simply goes against her ideals. Charlie's fixation on ideas is both her strength and weaknesses. To explore this contradiction is the root of her story. So, I don't see a scenario where she would have just gone and killed Vox. It would have made the character incoherent.
On this, I would add that people are acting as if Vox just goes and violently attacks Charlie the whole time... Well, he doesn't. He slanders her reputation, but he is VERY careful not to threaten her or her loved ones violently up until the last arc (the scene with Angel in ep. 2X3 is played for laughs; moreover, after Vox passes a line there Charlie does tell him to leave). Sure, Vox catches Alastor, but it is Alastor himself who goes to fight him. Moreover, everyone at the Hazbin Hotel knows Alastor is in the middle of his machinations and just trusts him enough not to intervene (it is stated so by Vaggi).
Vox becomes openly violent to Charlie's loved ones in the final episodes, when he kidnaps Lucifer and Angel. However, Charlie is not there to see it happen. She suspects something has happened to them, but is unsure and does not know the details.
With all this considered, it is really not surprising Charlie would not attack Vox violently. We are talking about the girl who is unable to go all out against the man who has just killed one of her friends. She is able to fully manifest her true power only to defend a loved one that is under attack right in front of her. This is just how sick violence makes Charlie.
CHARLIE IS A COHERENT CHARACTER
Season 2 may not go deeper nor solve Charlie's complicated relationship with violence and ideals. However, it is VERY clear about this conflict still being relevant for her character. Here comes 4 examples:
1-
Charlie: For my reckonin' (Hotel Visitors: For my reckonin')
I'll never turn to violence (Hotel Visitors: I'll never turn to violence)
This lyrics in Hazbin Guarantee is meant to be taken critically. Charlie has just won a fight and survived thanks to violence. Still, she is telling the Sinners they should NEVER use violence. It is clearly a point of view which is too rigid and a little bit hypocritical.
2-
Charlie: He ruined everything is what happened. The angels were here to set things right, but thanks to him— and, apparently, you— Vox was able to spin it, again!
In the climax of her spiral Charlie blames Lucifer and Vaggi for Vox's declaration of war. This showcases once again her white and black thinking and hypocrisy. She blames them 'cause their plan was about using violence to threaten Vox. So, it is OBVIOUSLY bad. Charlie and the angels' plan was instead about apologizing, hence OBVIOUSLY good. However, Vox's declaration of war is made possible not by Vaggi and Lucifer's intervention, but by Charlie bringing Sera at the rally. In the end, Sera even does exactly what Lucifer did. However, for Charlie Sera is innocent, while Lucifer is guilty. Here, our girl is clearly projecting some unsolved issues outside.
3-
Vox: And with Carmilla's aid, we can finally fulfill Lilith's dream. She started this resistance to take back our power by force. She wanted blood, now let's spill some blood. Resist!
Charlie: My mom never wanted violence. She empowered sinners. Peaceful protest. There was no blood!
Charlie gets angry at the idea Lilith might have endorsed violence. I am sure Lilith is not the blood-thirsty dictator Vox frames her up to be. However, I am not sure she was such a pacifist as Charlie remembers her. Once again no violence = good in Charlie's mind.
4-
Charlie: And now Vox is declaring a war, and Carmilla's right, I started it, and I'm a hypocrite and my dreams are gonna die!!!
Charlie is so disturbed by her inner violence that she genuinely sees her being forced to use it in season 1 finale as a personal defeat. She is so scared by the destructive results of violence she truly thinks deep down SHE is the one who started the war.
CHARLIE IS TRAUMATIZED
The whole point of Charlie in season 2 is that she is not fine. The final fight of season 1 clearly re-enacted her trauma:
Sir Pentious dies = her mom leaves
The Hazbin Hotel gets destroyed = her family is destroyed
Not only that, but Charlie internalizes it is all her fault.
Her mom abandons her because she is not good:
Charlie: Look, this hotel was my way of finishing what she started, and I think I've been trying so hard to hold on to it because if I can make it work, maybe she'd be… proud of me. And maybe she'd come back and tell me what I did to make her leave.
Her hotel gets destroyed because she made mistakes:
Charlie: This bloodshed could have been avoided
If I convinced Heaven to work together
I took a hotel and I destroyed it
I know I could have done better
Better, instead of letting you down
It's not Lilith who is a bad mom for leaving. It is Charlie, who is a bad daughter. The proof that she is so bad is that now Hell is on the verge of war 'cause Charlie dared to use violence ONCE in self-defense!
Charlie's unsolved grief and trauma is why she is so ineffective in the finale btw. She literally goes into a panic attack the moment war seems unavoidable after Vox's Might of Lilith hit. She is overwhelmed by fear, shame and guilt. That is because in her mind EVERYTHING IS HER FAULT. Obviously this is itself a pretty childish and self-centered understanding of reality :P But here's the point. Charlie is a child who needs to grow-up. If she did so in one arc (which season 1 and 2 are), there would be no story.
In short, Charlie is terrified of violence and of the idea of being "bad". She is also clearly set-up to eventually discard this understanding of the world. I mean... her two biggest helpers are Alastor and Vaggi LOL
In particular, Charlie is DEEPLY in love with Vaggi, miss I love fighting and I collect weapons. This is not accidental. It is because the two girls need to integrate their complementary visions of the world. Just like they start doing in 1x7.
Vaggi discovers she needs to fight for love. It means she needs to fight to protect others and herself, rather than to hurt enemies and to sacrifice herself. Out For Love is about her integrating Charlie's vision of the world. Hence why she embraces "dancing" aka her art for the first time. She learns her body is not there only to kill (fight), but also to crete beauty (dance).
Charlie discovers she needs to accept violence to protect the ones she loves. Ready For This is about Charlie accepting this necessity. This is why she sings a recruitment song where she asks people to march and dance (=fight) for her. She even uses a lot of military jargon, which is Vaggi's default language.
Basically the point of 1.6 is that the two girls integrate with each other, even if they are separate.
VOX AND ANGEL
Since you asked about them specifically, here are some quick thoughts on their situations.
Vox
Charlie saying on TV Vox is the strongest sinner ties with the themes of the season. Charlie would have never given up to Vox, but is forced to say so because of her deal with Alastor. And what happens once she basically loses the fight of communication against Vox? She wins the war.
That is because Charlie is SO obsessed about being a GREAT AND INSPIRING COMMUNICATOR just like Lilith was, that she misses that:
A- You can't win a battle of communication against the embodyment of medias
B- It's not important what you say, but you do. Charlie says she is giving up on TV, but then doesn't and fights for the Sinners. This wins her the Kingdom back
Angel
People blaming Angel's loved ones for his situation are missing the point of Angel's character and story imo.
"Charlie does not care about Angel 'cause she is so fixated on being non-violent, she would not even try ot save him from Valentino!"
Charlie is literally ready to throw hands with Val five minutes after meeting him :''') It is ANGEL, who stops her from doing so. He does it to protect her, but he acts as if he is angry with her.
"Angel's loved ones do not care about him, 'cause they do not try to forcefully save him from Valentino"
They literally forcefully save him from Valenino in the season 2 finale. They even risk their well-being to do so and do not blame Angel for attacking them. After all that, Angel himself chooses to step back into his abusive relationship.
Angel's arc is meant to explore the difficulty of freeing one-self from an abusive situation and so far I think it does a good job at that. It is childish to think that it is easy to save a person in an abusive relationship. It isn't or there would not be so many tragedies all around us.
Angel's loved ones are people aka they are flawed. They don't have the whole picture of what Angel is going through and they face a person, who insists on pushing them away and refusing their help. They themselves need to grow to help Angel. At the same time, Angel needs to grow himself and to let them help him. That is the point of his story.
LOSERS
Finally, it is funny to me that people make it sound as if Charlie is the ONLY ONE who fails ridiculously. I mean, the whole point of the Hellaverse is that everyone is a loser:
Husk- He tells Angel to give Charlie's disastrous redemption plan a chance and then gets angry when Angel saves his life
Vaggi - She keeps her identity hidden for three years, thinking she can somehow pull it off in the long run; she is also unable to come up with a convincing excuse not to go to Heaven, which OBVIOUSLY leads to her secret coming out :''')
Lucifer - Have you seen the man? Let's just say he ends up being a power-source and he kiiiiinda deserves it, you know?
Alastor - He can't use angelic weapons 'cause he is too cool for them. Then, he makes the fact that he lost literally everyone's problem and spends the entirety of season 2 throwing a temper tantrum
Vox - He comes up with this overly complicated plan to gain power through popularity. He does all that and finally becomes THE STRONGEST sinner... and he is barely more powerful than Alastor, still gets his ass handed to him 'cause he is a less efficient fighter and loses it all. Let me also point out that for all of Vox's struggle he is still Overlord- level. Forget Charlie, cinnamon-roll Abel can one-shot him :P
I think I made my point. Everyone in the series is flawed and lame, which is why they are all so compelling. This is also why I find the whole "frauds" discourse so pointless and funny... "This character is a fraud!", "No, this character is a fraud"... Hello? They are all frauds, it's kinda the point. They are all trying to appear better than they are, which is why the narrative humiliates them.
CONCLUSION
Let's go back to Charlie and say I think people are simply reading her wrong. She is not meant to be a hero. She is meant to be a traumatized person trying her best, which makes her far more inspiring. She isn't the genius-princess that conquers everyone with her charm and quirkiness. She is a realistic portrayal of a neglected child, who becomes a young adult without fully growing up.
It's something the story makes crystal clear. Charlie's first scene is her reading a fairy tale about her family after a highly violent event (the exterminations). She is sad and scared and has no family with her because both of her parents have been neglecting her. So, Charlie is left with their idealized version in a picture book and the childish dream to fix her family.
I will point out another layer I never see people discuss. I will say I don't know if we will truly go as deep into the exploration of Charlie. Still, it is an element, which is worth considering. Charlie's parents neglect her not because they are bad people or do not love her. They neglect her because they too are two deeply traumatized people. They had this big dream which became a nightmare and broke the world.
I think both Lucifer and Lilith have both been twisted by whatever went down in Eden and are clearly projecting their traumas in different ways on Charlie. In short, Charlie is the victim of this HUGE inter-generational trauma. Her parents broke the world and have been struggling with this. As their daughter, Charlie has been struggling with this legacy, as well. She wants to fix the world because her parents broke it. So, if she can amend their mistakes they can finally be a normal family.
This lens gives her first scene even more substance. Charlie could frankly just ignore the exterminations. She is not a target and could even leave Pride and build a life for herself in one of the lower rings. Still, she deep down knows that her parents are responsible for the situation. Everything the Sinners are going through is at the end of the day her parents' fault. So, it is also her fault. This is why she is so obsessed by the idea of making "everything right".
I have a question about The Apothecary Diaries too if that’s ok.
How would you describe Jinshi and Maomao’s relationship and their development these 2 seasons?
Hi!
I like both characters and their relationship <3
Theirs is the main bond of the series and it is meant to embody the two main themes: relationships and social differences, poison and medicine.
As I said here, their relationship is set up in episode 2 when Jinshi asks Maomao to prepare an aphrodisiac. This "poison" is symbolic of their bond, which is meant to be romantic and to force Jinshi to stop being a eunuch (so sexually inactive). It is not just about sexuality, though. The point is that Jinshi needs to grow up, to leave the Rear Palace where he can be "a boy" forever. He needs to become an adult and to accept his identity as the Moon Prince. Symbolically, he does so at the end of season 2 to save Maomao. She is the catalyst who forces him to mature and to face his role in society, to struggle with it and to live with it.
At the same time, Jinshi is the person who immediately sees through Maomao's facade. Maomao tries to be unremarkable, she represses herself both physically and psychologically. Her use of make-up is pretty telling. Maomao is actually very pretty, but she applies make-up to appear less attractive, so that she would go unnoticed. Similarly, her plan is initially to quietly work in the Rear Palace without revealing any of her talents, be them medicine or simply the ability to read. Well, Jinshi is the first person who is able to unmask her. He notices her immediately, the moment she walks away from Lihua and Gyokuyou muttering to herself. Later on, he tricks her into revealing she is the one who sent the warning to Gyokuyou about the powder. In short, Jinshi is able to recognize Maomao's value and real self since the very beginning.
So, Maomao and Jinshi are two repressed individuals, trapped by society. Not only that, but they are both trying to escape their respective roles. Jinshi is the Moon Prince, but he chooses to mask himself as "Jinshi the eunuch". Maomao could be the princess of the La clan, but she refuses this title and chooses to be an apothecary. At the same time, they are stunted in opposite ways.
Jinshi is overly emotional and childish, as Maomao notices many times. Maomao instead shows very little emotions and tries to be overly rational. They learn to be their true selves through each other. It is stated many times throughout season 1 they feel comfortable talking with the other and they obviously feel sexual attraction. Jinshi's one is obvious and he has very little experience on how to go at it, so he comes across as over the top and annoying (in a comedic way). Maomao's one is repressed behind her constantly being annoyed by Jinshi's beauty. Moreover, Maomao refusing to aknowledge Jinshi's real identity ties into her refusal to grow up. She is usually overly rational and intuitive and yet when it comes to Jinshi she just won't accept the obvious. This speaks volumes of her finding some kind of comfort zone with Jinshi and being scared of losing this tie.
Basically, theirs is an emotional awakening. Or to better say, Jinshi grows "physically" as he learns to be more active and to step into his role (outside world). Maomao grows "emotionally" as she is forced to progressively face her feelings and the fact she deeply cares for people (Inner world). They also end up saving each other from respectively Suirei and Shisui.
Suirei orchestrates Jinshi's assassination, which is only stopped thanks to Maomao. Shisui kidnaps Maomao, so Jinshi is forced to take action.
What's interesting is that the two sisters are key foils to both Jinshi and Maomao.
By facing Suirei in the climax of volume 1, Maomao faces a darker and tragic version of both herself and Jinshi. An apothecary who uses poison to kill both others and herself simply because "it is her role". A royal forced to hide her true identity and lineage.
By facing Shisui in the climax of volume 2, Jinshi faces a tragic version of both himself and Maomao. A person forced to be like their "evil parent", just like Jinshi fears he can't escape the late emperor's shadow. A girl wearing a mask of coldness when she actually cares more than everyone else.
After these trials, Maomao and Jinshi find each other again. Their reunion after the battle brings life in how they both manage to save the kids in different ways. Maomao saves them from a practical point of view (microchosm) and Jinshi saves them from a political point of view (macrochosm). Moreover, it is important that Maomao likes Jinshi's scar. The scar is symbolic of Jinshi's true self, neither the eunuch nor the Moon Prince, but a person so kind he would accept a wound from an enemy out of mercy. At the same time, Jinshi's "perfect facade" being ruined lets Maomao be a little bit more honest with her feelings.
In a sense, once again season 1 and season 2 endings are complementary and opposite.
Season 1 has Maomao face her father and past and saying goodbye to it. She does so by dressing up and dancing, basically embracing a part of herself she negates. She keeps calling herself unattractive and keeps saying she is not a skilled dancer. The finale instead reveals this side of herself she keeps hidden. Incidentally, it is her most feminine part.
Season 2 has Jinshi face the ghost of the late emperor and his role as the Moon Prince. He does so by wearing his armor and fighitng. This is a very different side of him we rarely see in the Rear Palace. There he presents as a shallow beauty. Still, he is more than that. He can be a good soldier, for example. The finale brings this side of himself out by marking Jinshi's face with a scar. Basically, Jinshi shows his most masculine part.
Here's an interesting question: What circus motif might you assign to Charlie and Lilith? Like, Lucifer is the Ringmaster, Mammon is the clown, so what rolls might Lilith and Charlie be in the Circus of Hell? I mentioned this for an AU, but I can see still see canon Charlie being the part of the Drum Major/Circus Parade leader. Especially since she mentions leading the parade in "Ready for this" and her outfit in season 2's finale somewhat resembles a band majors outfit with the buttons on her chest.
Hi!
As I have told you privately I like your head-canon of Charlie as Parade Leader. I also asked a friend if she had any head-canons and she came up with:
Charlie as Master of Ceremonies or Ringmaster Jr
Lilith as maybe backstage manager
So, do of these what you want :)
That said, I actually don't think Charlie and especially Lilith have a circus motif at this point and I don't think they need to. It is true that Hell is a circus, but first and foremost this kingdom is the greatest show in all of creation. So, to me right now it is more interesting to analyze the characters through the lens of a generic entertainment motif. As a matter of fact even more than the circus imagery, Hazbin Hotel and the Hellaverse are full of metaphors and references to art, music and showbiz. I mention this motif in many metas, so I think I will use your ask as an excuse to properly summarize it and describe how I see it up until now.
WHAT IS THE ENTERTAINMENT MOTIF IN THE HELLAVERSE?
It is a metaphor that permeates the whole Hellaverse, as many important characters are linked to art or entertainment. It has two meanings:
1- Meta-narratively, this motif comments on the Hellaverse as a product of entertainment and it explains what the series wants to be like. Lucifer is the old school entertainment (Disney + the circus + musical theatre), which is in a crisis until Charlie (the Hellaverse) comes along and proposes a new kind of entertainment, which is original, but rooted in classics. Characters like Mammon and Vox are instead unoriginal kinds of entertainment, which rely on the same ideas again and again (Mammon) and on superficial contents (Vox and the Vees). In this sense, this motif is simply a love letter to entertainment, especially to all the works of art which inspired the series. There are references to Disney, famous musical movies, musical theatre classics, fairy tales, magical girls anime and more.
2- In universe, "entertainment" stands as a metaphor for power and political influence (especially in Hell). This is why we have so many influential characters involved in the entertainment business (the Sins, the Overlords, the Morningstars, even Adam runs his cult through rock music).
I have discussed the meta-narrative implication of this motif here. In this post, I will focus more on the in-universe implication. In particular, I am gonna highlight how different characters tie into this imagery, to the point you could almost design some kind of entertainment hierarchy in the Hellaverse :P
THE ENTERTAINMENT HIERARCHY
Here comes what I call "The Entertainment Hierarchy". Of course this is all speculative and a head-canon. I also doubt these motifs are going to be used as strictly as this analysis presents them. In short, take it with a grain of salt and enjoy!
LUCIFER AND LILITH: THE KING AND QUEEN OF ENTERTAINMENT
Lucifer and Lilith are ( or may be in Lilith's case) inspired by two famous musical movies. Lucifer references "The Greatest Showman", while Lilith might reference "Moulin Rouge!". Both movies are musicals, with similar ideas about art, entertainment, dreams and why they are important. The two musical movies might also loosely comment on Lucifer and Lilith's arcs in the story.
Moreover, "The Greatest Showman" and "Moulin Rouge!" link respectively Lucifer to the circus and Lilith to cabaret (a combination of dance, songs and theatre):
Lucifer and the circus - I think thematically the circus is symbolic of creativity as a whole. It is a world of dreams, where everything can become possible. Hence why Lucifer tried to model Hell after a giant circus. After all, Lucifer himself has been often compared to characters linked to imagination. He is a Mr Alt Disney, he has been said to be similar to Willy Wonka in interviews and so on. He is the Ringmaster of Hell not because he rules Hell, but mostly because he has contributed to its creation. Even when he is shown "working" in Charlie's flashback in More Than Anything, he is not active politically, but rather creating something in his study-room, which strongly associates him to a "carpenter" of sorts.
Lilith and entertainment - I think that Lilith is meant to be the brightest star of Hell from an entertainment perspective. She is a famous singer and she used to be a model. I would not be surprised if she were to be an ace at singing, dancing and acting. In general, we know Lilith's talent at singing is meant to be a metaphor for her political talent and ability to inspire and lead others. In short, Lilith is the best singer of Hell because she is the best leader.
THE PROTAGONISTS OF EDEN AS MUSICAL MOVIES
Lucifer and Lilith are the King and Queen of Hell, so their musical motifs link them to the idea of entertainment itself. However, they are also two of the four protagonists of the Story Of Eden, which started the series as a whole. Now, this is OBVIOUSLY a head-canon and I might very well be wrong, but I would like if all the four protagonists of the myth were linked to musical movies.
In this case, Lucifer is "The Greatest Showman" and Lilith may be "Mouling Rouge!", but what about Adam and Eve?
Adam and "School Of Rock" - The musical movie School Of Rock is about rock as freedom, community and challenge to authority. The joke is that Adam takes this form of art and twists it so that in Hazbin Hotel it becomes associated to opposite ideas. Just like Adam presents himself as a messianic archetype, when he is really a satanic archetype. He frames his rhetoric as "good", when it is in fact "evil". The motto of School Of Rock is "Stick it to the man!". Well, Adam repeats these words in Welcome To Heaven without realizing he himself is the man.
Rosie (Eve) and "Hello, Dolly!" - I know that Rosie might very well not be Eve, but, until proven wrong, I am head-canoning them as the same person. In any case, I will use this section to speak of Rosie's entertainment motifs, which are still present no matter who she is.
Rosie alludes to the musical movie "Hello, Dolly!", which is about a woman playing the match-maker and manipulating everyone for her own objectives. Now, the Dolly in the movie is actually well meaning and makes sure everyone (including herself) ends up happy and in love. I am not sure our Rosie is as innocuous :P
I will add Rosie has two additional allusions.
1) She alludes to "Mary Poppins" and "Mary Poppins Returns", as the art below shows:
This reference is present in "Don't You Forget", where Rosie and Al's dance is similar to Mary Poppins and Jack's dance in "The Cover Is Not The Book":
2) She alludes to The Little Mermaid's Ursula (who is a satanic archetype of her own by the way):
Ursula makes a pact with Ariel and takes her voice in exchange for making her a human
Rosie makes a pact with Al and takes his soul in exchange for making him the strongest sinner
There is an obvious link between voices and souls in the Hellaverse. Moreover, both women are actually tricking their victims. Sure, Ursula makes Ariel a human, but she sets up a trial the little mermaid is bound to fail. As for Rosie, she makes Al the strongest sinner, but there are much more powerful beings in Hell and Heaven that the Radio Demon needs to face.
In short, Rosie is set up as an important character also because she has many allusions and references. I think the other character with these many since his introductory episode is Lucifer (The Greatest Showman, The Ugly Duckling and Mr Alt-Disney). Moreover, Lucifer too gets a specific Disney reference, as he alludes to Aladdin's Geenie:
So, I wonder if all this symbolism and these allusions are also because Rosie and Lucifer are gonna be foils (and even more so Rosie and Lilith, but I don't have enough stuff about Lilith). In a sense, you can see Lucifer as old Disney, while Rosie as old Broadway, both of which are among the greatest inspirations for the series. So, like... very ancient and powerful characters ready to clash? We'll see.
Why should the four protagonists of the Eden myth be associated to musical movies? A possible answer is that they are very ancient beings (as ancient as humanity), so in a sense they already have "their own stories". This may be why thematically each one of them references an already existing musical movie. Not only that, but:
Their movies link them all to a form of art
They are twists of their respective musical movies
So, in summary we have:
Adam - rock music: he is a Dewey Finn, who instead of "sticking it to the man" has become "the man"
Lucifer - circus: he is a P.T. Barnum, who has lost his drive and dreams
Lilith - cabaret (dancing + singing + acting): she is a Satine, whose love life is going through a crisis
Rosie (Eve) - musical theatre: she is a Dolly, who is now scheming not for everyone's good, but in a sinister and exploitative way
In a sense they are all so old that it is as if they have outlived their own stories. They have lived so long they have become the antithesis of their own musical movies and need to rediscover themselves.
THE SEVEN DEADLY SINS AS A CIRCUS TROUPE
Lucifer and Lilith are the King and Queen of Hell and they modeled Hell after a giant circus, which ties into Lucifer's allusion. As a result, the Seven Deadly Sins in this universe are a Circus Troupe:
Lucifer is the Ringmaster
Satan is the Strongman
Bee-lzebub is the Beast-Master and the Circus Animal
Mammon is the Clown
Asmodeus is the Fire-Eater
Leviathan is the Circus-Freak + probably some additional Circus Act
Belphegor is yet to be seen, but may be some kind of Fortune-Teller
Each circus act rules one of the Seven Rings of Hell, so that metaphorically Hell becomes a seven-ring circus aka:
The Greatest Show ever
The greatest chaos ever
In general, the circus symbolism is interesting when it comes to the Sins.
On the one hand many of the Sins do not wear circus clothes during their every-day life (Ozzie and Bee). Sor far, only Lucifer and Mammon's circus motifs are easily recognizable on sight. For the others they can be deduced by details in their houses or outfits.
On the other hand some Sins seem to emphasize their circus motif when dressed formally for the audience in Mastermind (Bee is the primary example).
I think the Sins' circus allusions are meant to symbolize their link with Lucifer, which is growing weaker as Lucifer has been isolating himself (hence they do not perform together as a circus troupe anymore). At the same time, the circus (as the other entertainment motifs) is a metaphor for the Sins' political power, hence them highlighting this imagery in formal occasions.
I will add that Mammon being the one who makes his Circus Motif obvious on spot ties with him trying to fill the power vacuum left by Lucifer and Lilith. They are the King and Queen of Entertainment, but since they are both absent for different reasons Mammon has stepped up to fill the gap. He organizes pageants and has made clowns and circus very popular among Hellborns. He is a Clown who has become Ringmaster.
THE OVERLORDS AS ARTS
This one has been confirmed in a late 2025 interview. From the Hellaverse Wiki:
In a late-2025 interview, Vivziepop explained that in one of her earliest versions of Hazbin Hotel, she made each of the Overlords to represent a different kind of media or art form, and each have a vague theme. However, Vivziepop says that as the characters began to play different roles, she team didn't want to label each one.
Here is a list of the major Overlords and their art-motifs:
Carmilla - dance, specifically ballet (confirmed)
Zestial - some people proposed literature and I love it for him
Zeezi - hip hop + grunge (confirmed)
Maestro - classical music + opera (confirmed)
Prick and Hatchet - I head-canon them as respectively western and something like punk or goth music. I see them as relatively minor Overlords, so I think they allude more to sub-genres than anything else
Vox - medias in general, with a focus on TV, as he is the Media Overlord (confirmed)
Valentino - the film industry (confirmed)
Velvette - social media (confirmed)
Alastor - radio (confirmed)
Rosie - musical theatre (my head-canon)
Here come some considerations.
First of all, it is interesting to notice a difference between the other Overlords, especially the oldest ones (like Carmilla and Zestial), and the Vees:
The "old guard" alludes to "arts"
The Vees, who are younger Overlords, allude to "medias"
Obviously every media can become "art", but in the context of the Vees I like to think they allude to medias because they are mostly exploitative, rather than artistic. Their modus operandi is to prey on people and to steal their talents (see Angel or the Overexposed Sinner). After all, they represent the showbusiness industry at its worst.
Where does Alastor fit?
I think Alastor is right between art and exploitation. Or to better say he has the potential to do both.
On the one hand Alastor can use his media (radio) to make voices louder, which he does in season 1 as Charlie's "executive producer". He helps her win the cannibals over and lends his microphone to her.
On the other hand Alastor is famous for stealing Overlords' voices (symbolically their souls), trapping them in his radio and making broadcasts out of their screams. If this is not a metaphor for exploitation I don't know what is :P
This duality fits Alastor's character, who is a trickster aka he walks a fine line between ally and antagonist. I will add Alastor is inspired by the song You Are Never Fully Dressed Without A Smile from the musical Annie. If I am not wrong, the song is the only one sung by a minor character (a radio host) in the show. This could fit Alastor trying to "write his own story", but not having a full musical movie after him, as he is far younger and less powerful than other ancient beings. He is trying to climb up the system.
Finally, I think Rosie embodying musical theatre is basically confirmed tbh. I have explained why above, but "Don't You Forget" offers additional arguments.
One among many is this frame:
Rosie moves Alastor around as a puppet in her personal theatre
The scene itself is a reference to yet ANOTHER iconic musical movie ("Chicago"):
So, yeah, they went all out with the musical theatre references for the Cannibal Queen :P
ENTERTAINMENT = POWER
In the Hellaverse the best entertainers are the most powerful and influential characters. Similarly, the motifs explored above describe Hell's political situation.
Lucifer and Lilith are the King and Queen and probably at their best they have complementary roles in Hell:
Lucifer sets the stage (Hell) and prepares the show. He was also probably more interested in the Hellborns and worked together with the Seven Deadly Sins. After all, he makes sure Hellborns are left out from the Exterminations.
Lilith takes central stage as the best performer (political leader). It is possible she was mostly involved with the Sinners and the Pride Ring. After all, Vox calls her a Sinner, so maybe she was not really able to visit the other Rings of Hell (we'll see).
However, they are both missing (Lucifer psychologically and Lilith physically). As a result, others have stepped up and seized the power for themselves.
The Sins are ruling the Rings of Hell with Satan and Mammon expanding their influence, as Lucifer is now uninvolved. They still honor the circus motif distinctive of the King Of Hell.
The Overlords are ruling the Pride Ring with the Vees expanding their influence, as Lilith is gone. The Overlords are not limited to the circus motif, but represent different arts, just like their Queen.
THE HAZBIN CREW
How does the Hazbin Crew fit in all of this?
I will start by saying I am not sure EVERY character at the Hazbin Hotel is gonna fit here. For example, I don't think Cherri Bomb so far has such a strong entertainment motif. Sure, she has a punk rock musical style, but that's all. It is also possible some ideas and concepts will become clearer as the story goes on. In any case, here are some thoughts.
Husk and Niffty are Overlords, so they should fit into the "art motif". I also think they may be minor Overlords, as both are great against Valentino and Velvette, but also need Cherri and Baxter's help to defeat the two Vees.
Husk may represent magic tricks and magic performances. His powers seem equally linked to this art and to gambling. This is also because some elements (like cards) are shared by these two activities. I see the Magician Husk as the real Husk in full control of his destiny. Gambler Husk is instead a Husk, who gives up his power and leaves his life up to chance.
Niffty is still a mystery, but so far she seems linked to "feminine arts" like cleaning and especially sewing. After all, Niffty's weapon and symbol is a giant needle. I think we'll discover more as the story goes on.
Sir Pentious and Baxter are interesting because they are not linked to an art per se. Rather they explore the idea of "creation". Sir Pentious is an inventor and loves creating mechanisms and objects. Baxter is instead a mad scientist, who adores experimenting with organic matter and inventing new life-forms. They are two complementary approaches to creativity, as they represent heart and mind, intuition and logic:
ANGEL, VAGGI AND CHARLIE: THREE PERFORMATIVE ARTS
Here come our three protagonists! Angel, Vaggi and Charlie are the three young characters we see growing throughout the series. So, what is their entertainment motif? Easy, they are linked respectively to acting (Angel), dancing (Vaggi) and singing (Charlie).
Why is this important? Well, acting, dancing and singing are the three performative arts that make up musical theatre, which is at the heart of the series.
Angel, Vaggi and Charlie are still young and inexperienced and are not fully realized people yet. So, they do not have an art/media like the Overlords or a circus act like the Sins. How could they? They lack a proper social role in Hell. They don't even have a fully fledged story (musical movie) of their own yet. They are writing it just now. However, they are full of potential and get to explore the three key performative arts of the series to the fullest.
Angel And Acting
Angel is a porn-star, which is Hell's equivalent of a Hollywood actor. Thematically Angel's link to acting is about:
Angel hiding his trauma and real self behind a persona (negative) > Poison
Angel using his acting to explore different parts of himself (positive) > Losin' Streak
This is why his two main songs so far explore opposite performances. Poison is a negative performance (repression), while Losin' Streak is a positive one (expression).
Vaggi And Dancing
Vaggi is a child-soldier turned dancer. Thematically Vaggi's link to dance is about her rebirth. She is taught she is just a weapon, but discovers herself a person able to create art. She initially sees her body as something to kill and hurt others. However, she discovers it as an instrument of beauty, able to protect (Out For Love) and love (Easy).
This is why two of her key songs are:
Out For Love, where she is a silent protagonist. This song is a training lesson, which is really about dance. The metaphor is that Vaggi must evolve her fighting style to protect and survive, rather than to kill and die.
Easy, where she takes central stage as a singer. This song is a metaphorical depiction of Vaggi and Charlie making love and it uses tango to describe the girls' sexual intercourse.
Charlie And Singing
Charlie is a singer who wants someone to properly listen to her. Thematically Charlie's link to singing is about communication. Charlie wants to convey her big lofty dreams to people, but she struggles to get through them. At the same time, she often is self-centered and fails to listen to others properly. Her growth lies into her finding a good balance between singing and listening. Her major songs all highlight this:
Happy Day In Hell is about Charlie singing about her dream to an unresponsive and cynical Hell
It Starts With Sorry is about Charlie teaching Sir Pentious about Redemption
More Than Anything is about Charlie and Lucifer finally communicating
You Didn't Know is about Charlie finally standing up and answering to Adam's claims
Ready For This is about Charlie getting through to the Cannibals thanks to her voice
Hazbin Guarantee is about Charlie trying to make a speech to convince the Sinners to stay at the Hazbin Hotel
Speedrun To Redemption is about Charlie speaking over Angel, when she should listen to him
Easy is about Charlie finally listening to Vaggi
Obviously Charlie's passion for singing stems also from her admiration for Lilith, who is a famous singer able to use her voice to empower others. Charlie would like to do the same, but she has to do it her own way, not Lilith's.
In a sense, Charlie is a person who is looking for her own unique voice and will find it by helping others find theirs. This will be Charlie's way to "empower" others. Through listening and discovering their voices, rather than by imposing hers. Charlie's objective is to help everyone find their "musical key". This is why she is always ready to offer guests a key-room and why the mascotte of her Hazbin Hotel is a literal key:
KeeKee is a key able to sense people's hearts (hence she gets attached to Pentious and hisses at Vox). She is the Hazbin Hotel's key and symbolically she stands for the "musical key" present in everyone. She highlights the Hazbin Hotel's goal to unlock everyone's inner sounds.
CHARLIE: SINGING + CIRCUS
One final focus on Charlie. Our girl is a mix between Lilith and Lucifer, as her powers show:
Charlie's powers combine Lilith's musical notes and Lucifer's fireworks. That is because Charlie herself is her parents' combination.
On the one hand she wants to inspire sinners through her voice (Lilith's empowering voice). On the other hand she has a big lofty dream (Lucifer's circus) she wants to realize.
As a result, Charlie's own entertainment motif might become more layered as the story goes on.
Like Lilith, Charlie might need to grow as a performer
Charlie's key song so far is Ready For This, which is a full-fledged performance. Here Charlie finally succeeds at convincing a group of people to "sing her song" and follow her.
To do that she goes all out not only at singing, but at dancing and acting, as well.
-She sings a beautiful song that resonates with her public.
-She incorporates some tip-tap in her routine and invites the cannibals to dance with her.
-She puts up a performance, as she hides her doubts and negativity to appear as a strong leader:
Charlie: I really hope that I'm ready for this...
The song is titled "Ready For This", but Charlie never once says that she is ready. She just tries to appear ready and to perform accordingly.
Like Lucifer, Charlie might need to build her own circus
Charlie's link with the circus is less present than her link with music. However, it might still be relevant for her character.
For example, in Easy Charlie apologizes to Vaggi by building a small circus-tent:
Just like Lucifer materializes a circus pocket dimension for Charlie in More Than Anything:
So, it is probable "circus" for Charlie means dreams, wonder and love. More importantly, it might be a home, a place where her loved ones are protected. So, Charlie's personal circus may really be her Hazbin Hotel :P
Thematically it is also possible Charlie might need to grow into a Ringmaster in her own right:
This is an old sketch, but here Charlie looks like a Ringleader to me.
Not only that, but so far her designs for the two season finales have incorporated some circus elements, like the buttons on both her outfits:
They can resemble a band major outfit, but also a circus ringmaster jacket.
Roo is most likely going to be the embodiment of evil if Viv's commentary on such a being and a counter force would be the closest to actual gods we would get in the show. My question is how would Roo work in a show like Hazbin Hotel. The show has repeatedly reinforced that no matter how bad people can be, everyone has the capacity for good and can choose redemption. How could a being that is the personification of all that is wrong with the universe fit into the narrative, particularly with how her character challenges Charlie's belief in innate goodness in all beings?
Hi!
I am not worried at all tbh. In literature and media you find many characters that embody "evil" and whose characterization changes depending on what the story wants to convey about evil. Like, even in the real world people just can't agree on what evil is :P
So, for example:
You have Iago in Otello, who embodies an "evil" without true explanation. Why does Iago hate Otello? We don't know. We are suggested multiple reasons, but none is confirmed. Deep down there is not a good enough explanation, which is true in the real world too. Why do people hate who is different? No real reason.
You have The First Evil in Buffy, who embodies why people do evil. They take the shape of dead people to torment the living, can't truly hurt people physically, but will mess with people's mind and manipulate them. However, they are deep down jealous of humans because they can "touch" each other, aka connect. > Personally, I think Roo might be a similar character.
In short, the characterization of Roo will depend on what Hazbin Hotel wants to tell about "good" and "evil", which is kind of the main theme of the series anyway. As a matter of fact I think the main theme of the story is "the knowledge of good and evil". This is why having two characters who embody "good" and "evil" may work pretty well.
As for what "good and evil" will be in Hazbin Hotel, I have actually briefly discussed it here. I will share some of my original thoughts and integrate them.
GOOD AND EVIL = LIGHT AND DARK
Charlie Morningstar: Once upon a time, there was a glowing city protected by golden gates known as Heaven. It was ruled by beings of pure light, Angels that worshiped good and shielded all from evil.
Good and Evil appear briefly during the Story Of Hell and they are associated to light (Good) and shadow (Evil). However, "light" and "shadow" are also two Jungian archetypes. According to Jung, light and shadow are two complementary parts of the self:
The light is what people show to themselves and others. It is what is in plain sight, out in the open. It is usually the way people want to be.
The shadow is what people hide from themselves and others. It is what lies in the darkness, hidden within. It is usually what people don't want to be.
So, light and shadow do often overlap with good and evil, as one usually shows their most positive qualities (light) and does not accept their most negative ones (shadow). However, this is not always the case. For example, one might wear an insufferable mask (light) and be unaware of their potential (shadow). So, sometimes the light can be bad and the shadow can be good.
Hazbin Hotel plays with the dichotomies of good/evil and light/shadow. In this way good and evil become loosely associated with the Jungian light and shadow. Good overlaps with Light, so Heaven is beautiful and it appears perfect, but it is full of secrets and contradictions. Evil overlaps with Shadow, so Hell is chaotic and violent, but it deep down has the potential to be more.
This juxtaposition between moral ideas and Jungian archetypes impacts also the knowledge of good and evil, which becomes that of light and shadow. This means that to understand good and evil one has to accept there is light and shadow within everyone, no matter how wonderful or horrible they are. To explore this idea Good and Evil might be not only the embodiment of their respective moral ideas, but also that of persona and shadow in jungian terms. It means that the two deities might be more complex than what people expect. This also fits with the information we have been given about them in the interview you mentioned:
"I'm excited for people to meet them (Good and Evil)," she says. "They're a huge part of the show. We did actually get a peek at them in season 1 — in the opening story, we're told about the entities of Good and Evil. So without giving too much away, the closest we get to gods are these concepts of Good and Evil personified. I cannot wait for that, because it's a fun way of exploring the concept of an entity without it being necessarily what people expect."
In short, Roo will be the embodiment of Evil and of the Jungian shadow (which is basically what the First Evil is in Buffy btw and Buffy has basically the same themes of redemption and hope Hazbin Hotel has). So, she is a character who will be used to explore why people give in to evil. Her characterization will also tie into these themes. To reference Buffy again, the First Evil is bound to lose cause they can never truly connect with others, hence they can never change. All of this comments on the main theme of Buffy: love and connection save. Hazbin Hotel is basically the same, so I am expecting Roo to tie into this commentary.
WHY DO PEOPLE DO EVIL IN HAZBIN HOTEL?
Good and Evil will explore what these two ideas are in the Hellaverse. So, it is hard to comment on a theme in a series before the story gets to it. That said, Hazbin Hotel has already started to build its themes and we get a pretty good idea of where "evilness" comes from in Hazbin Hotel.
In general, "sin" and "evil" seem to be connected to a poor sense of self. Both Adam and Vox aka the two villains of season 1 and 2 definitely share this trait:
Adam wears a mask 24/24 and tries to copy Lucifer.
Vox ties his sense of self to how others perceive him, copies Alastor, steals others' ideas.
This is also why both Adam and Vox deep down want to become "god". It's to compensate how empty inside they feel. In Hazbin Hotel the sin of "pride" stems from wanting to be more than you are because deep down you dislike yourself. Adam, Vox, Charlie, Lucifer and Alastor all share this flaw. This is why "pride"'s complementary side is "shame". Pride and shame are just the same thing felt differently by the characters: pride masks self-hate, while shame is when self-hate takes over.
Lucifer is probably the best example of this, as the titular Sin of Pride:
On the one hand he believes and acts as if he were better than anyone else (see his mocking of Alastor or his treatment of the Sinners). On the other hand he obviously hides a ton of self-hate and shame behind his prideful mask. As a result, he is stuck and can't grow up. He can't change.
Well, what's true for the King of Hell is true for Hell. The Sinners are stuck there because they can't face their sins. In a sense, they believe they can't change and keep spiraling and hurting each other. This is what Charlie's Habzin Hotel wants to correct. The hotel is a place where people can work on their "sins", so that they can change and get to Heaven:
Sir Pentious: I was watching a woman wandering past my workshop, a beautiful thing, young, so full of life. And then I saw… and I did nothing. I knew who did it, and I did nothing. He was a client, a man with power. I could have... I could have done something, brought the man to justice, but I… I didn't. I don't know if it was fear or apathy, but... I... that man went on to kill five more women. Five more. I still did Nothing, and he was never caught. I carried that guilt to my grave, and I ended up in Hell. And I deserved it.
Speaker of God: So, why are you here now, my child?
Sir Pentious: I don't know. My friends. My friends were in danger. Cherri was in danger. I had to do something. This time... I would do something
Sir Pentious's story suggests the sin a person needs to correct is the one thing they can't forgive themselves for. They must face their inner shame. They need to face their darkest side and to conquer it; they need to integrate with their "jungian shadow".
In this sense, they need to "overcome their pride". They must let go of this fake self-love (idol) and embrace true self-love (god), which is rooted in acceptance of who one is. This is why thematically Hazbin Hotel focuses on the Pride Ring and the Sinners are stuck there. Pride, shame, identity and redemption are all intertwined ideas. They all tie to the concepts of "good" and "evil".
In conclusion, Roo is going to be a personification of the jungian shadow and will challenge people to face their inner darkness. I think she will be characterized by her conflict with Good, which is gonna give us more information on the theme of "knowledge of good and evil".
