Hello, you have a really interesting blog! It’s fascinating to read the process of you sorting someone. I was wondering if you could help me find my sorting.
I don’t know my primary OR my secondary. They might be burnt, but I think this is mostly a result of me overthinking and being shite with self-analysis. Which is a horrible combination.
I’ve found my best work is usually the result of me taking what someone else has done, ripping it apart, adding or removing parts as needed (usually all of them) and then making a cohesive Thing out of it. It’s how I’ve made projects, stories, art, etc.
What an interesting thing to say. Wanting something to start with something which you can then respond to is making me think Improvisational secondary. Snake or Lion?
The process of picking apart someone’s work/advice gives me an idea of what I want to make. Which is why I usually end up doing my work at the last minute, by begging everyone else for their work.
Oooh we’re leveraging the community. So a social secondary like Snake is still very possible, especially with that description of pulling something together last minute using pieces. Very improvisational. But I’m wondering if there’s going to be any Badger in your sorting. Maybe as a primary.
It’s also how I treat advice and suggestion (which annoys my sister a lot, heh). I listen to someone’s suggestions on how to act or react to some problem, and then decide what I want to do. It’s like I need a base to completely disregard. A signpost which tells me, ‘Going left looks like a decent idea’ so that I can decide for myself to go whether to go right or centre. The metaphor is somewhat nonsensical but it’s the best I’ve right now.
So I could read this as just being contrary (rebelling to rebel), or maybe being in a situation where you need to utilize negative indicators. It could be a way to bootstrap a Lion primary - get some outside advice, then see if you emotionally respond positively or negatively. But the fact that you depend so much on your community when deciding what to do makes me think an external primary - Badger or Bird.
Making a plan makes me feel secure, because ‘Finally! A direction to move in.’ However, I’ve never been able to follow any of the plans I have. I usually end up just doing stuff at the last minute when I can’t worry about other things. You know, when my head is too full with an overwhelming sense of ‘I have to do this right now!’ to get distracted. The plan’s just to get me started.
Oh this is executive dysfunction stuff. And not to armchair diagnose, which is super not ethical… but a LOT of neurodivergent people write into me, and a LOT of them have helpful bird secondary models that function as toys/coping techniques.
My go-to method for solving people-problems is to think of the things I want to get across, psyche myself up for the confrontation and just barge on with it. Just, do it. Yeet myself into the tense and undesirable situation and we’ll see what happens. It’s the only good method. The other two are ‘pretend this problem doesn’t exist’ and ‘ignore that person/those people forever’.
Super DUPER Lion secondary. There are two choices 1) Charge at the problem, see what happens 2) Do nothing.
It’s easy for me to fake my investment in things. I got into the Environment Club recently, and in the application form I remember writing about oil spills in a way that made it seem as though it was an issue I’ve been passionate about for a long time. It had only come to my attention when ‘Ocean on Fire in Mexican Waters’ became a headline. I was very proud of that one. While I won’t fake an opinion, I can and will control how passionate I appear about a thing. I am rather proud of this.
Still Lion. That is how Lions face-change - they can raise or lower their intensity.
Secondaries are easy to understand for me. The idea that there is a way of doing things that comes naturally to me is fairly plausible. Primaries on the other hand….they are murky as fuck for me. I always end up getting in tangles over it.
On one hand, it’s natural for a person to prioritise their loved ones and the issues that affect their people over other issues. On the other hand, this is the sort of mindset that stops us from caring about issues beyond our tiny sphere. The sort of things that makes us indifferent towards the suffering of those who are not a part of your group or one of your people. What is the correct mode of action here?
The way this is phrased, and even the way it’s framed as a search for the “correct” answer is already very Bird. I’m going to keep on using Sartre’s Loyalist vs Idealist example because it’s such a good one, but philosophers and moralists have been debating “objectively correct” morality for… a long time now.
Obviously, we can’t spend all our time caring about causes that don’t affect us. Not only will it make us laughing-stock it is also a foolish idea. A person’s priority, in my opinion, ought to be bettering their life and helping alleviate the problems that plague them and the people around them. Of course, it is every person’s right to choose what to care about, and to find what works for them, but in my opinion starting with what’s around will show maximum results and well, it just feels more right.
I think we have a Bird primary with a Badger-flavored system.
When I have to make an opinion, I first try to see if it’s something I can avoid. Seriously, having an opinion is so difficult. Socialising is easier than forming an opinion.
Oh ouch. I think it’s very possible that your bird might be a little bit… burnt. Or exploded. Specifically the frozen Chidi-style Exploded Bird, because how can you do *anything* if you don’t know *for sure* it’s objectively right.
I don’t have to make many moral decisions in my daily life, most of us don’t. I try to avoid passing judgements on topics I don’t know about or ones that appear too morally grey.
Primaries aren’t just about moral decisions. They’re also about things that you, you know. Want. The things that get you out of bed in the morning.
As a kid, I used to make snap judgments all the time and incessantly defend them in the face of opposition, but now it just feels foolhardy to do.
That’s definitely your stubborn Lion secondary combining with an Idealist primary. Immature Glory Hound Lion or Black-and-White Bird.
Not to mention having to change my opinion after realising that I made a mistake (which happens often) is really fucking embarrassing, even if it’s something I’m doing in private.
I mean, no one LIKES being wrong. But the choice of the word “embarrassing” is skewing me more Bird. I’d expect a Lion to say something like making a mistake is “miserable” or “stressful” or “disorientating.”
And not changing my opinion when confronted with new information makes me feel pathetic.
Yeah. Bird.
There’s also the reality of ever pervasive fake news and showing + wording things in a light favourable to the people funding the news. I have zero trust in any of the media outlets I have around me (paranoia ftw!).
We have an Exploded Bird. No wonder you don’t like having opinions on things. You’ve cut off your ability to take in new information.
The same goes for what other people tell me, including my family. While I want to believe them (my family), they’re dead wrong about something I believe in with all my heart. So, what’s to say that they couldn’t be wrong about other things too?
Nobody can be right all the time. It sucks.
I love my family, and I’ll love them even if they disown me once I come out (I’m bisexual and they’re queerphobic).
I think it must be really, really brutal to have a loud lion secondary and also have to stay in the closet for an extended period of time.
As long as their mistreatment will be limited to throwing me out of the family, I won’t stop caring about them. They’re my family. They would have to become pretty terrible people for me to cut off ties with them.
So you’ve basically given me a set-up where you don’t feel able to have an opinion on anything, apart from a sort of generalized Badger worldview, and then you hit me with something as intensely loyalist as this? Is there a really Burnt Badger (or even really burnt Snake) underneath the Bird? Or is this a Loyalist talking point/model that you’ve picked up somewhere? Or is your Badger system just like, super intense? (also, is it just me, but have you kicked yourself out of your own system?)
This attitude was the one I used to have with my friends. Until I realised that friendship doesn’t work out for me for some reason. I’m simply grateful for company now. I only show people the degree of care that I feel they will reciprocate. I don’t want to be taken advantage of by people whom I choose to become close to.
This is sounding intensely Burnt Badger? Like you want a community, but communities don’t feel safe.
A lot of Shonen anime at an impressionable age has left me with high standards for friendships.
… or maybe you’ve got Prince Charming Syndrome, only with friendships.
If one of my family did or said something that I disagreed with and which granted them public condemnation, would I stand by them or condemn them? I would do both. I wouldn’t pretend to agree with what they said (doing that would make me feel horrible) but I would stand by them.
Lion secondary. Some kind of Loyalist *something* primary.
I will never lie about my opinions. I don’t care what punishment I get. I’ll either make it really obvious that I don’t agree with the majority opinion, make myself scarce or just outright argue about it.
… because you’re a Lion secondary.
I can’t lie without feeling guilty. It’s a hassle really, but what can one do? I’ve settled on becoming more authentic and truthful. I don’t want to hurt people with my actions or words. Apparently, I need to show my anger (per my therapist) but how can I do that without crossing any lines? Without making people feel bad?
You’ve probably heard this from your therapist, but sometimes people are just going to find you unpleasant. It’s inevitable, and it’s ultimately not that big of a deal. In the end, everybody is responsible for their *own* emotional well-being.
What if I was wrong for no reason?
… and there’s that exploded Bird primary coming back.
If something has hurt me, I do my level best to never do it to other people. Basically, ‘not hurting others’ is a pretty big rule in my book. It’s one I’ll bend sometimes, but not without reason. After all, a rule that doesn’t have exceptions is either something really obvious (‘no murder’) or something incredibly vague (‘always do good things’).
bird bird bird bird bird
As a kid, I was really power/fame-hungry. Now, I just want to feel secure, without second-guessing myself and my actions. Massive priority shift. Kid me didn’t really think about stuff beyond wanting to be the most powerful person on Earth. I wish I could go back to that.
… do you really though? :) But it is interesting that young you sounds so much like a Glory Hound Lion. I wonder if your Badger-flavored system used to be a lot more Lion-flavored, or if this is maybe a side effect of having a really loud Lion secondary.
I wish I could do things that have a tangible effect on the state of affairs. I wish I could hand-wave the world’s problems away. I wish, at the very least, I had a book telling me what to do, and I how to do it.
THE BOOK FANTASY. You are like the fifth person who has written in with “I wish I had a book that told me what to do.” It’s always in exactly those words too. This seems to be a VERY common Bird primary fantasy.
Although on second thought, I would probably read the book and cherry-pick advice that makes sense to me. And that’s if I even believed the book in the first-place.
… and then the Exploded element of your Bird kicks in.
……..So, I suppose that’s about it. It feels like it’s all over the place, and at more than one place I’ve tmi’d while at the same time not giving enough information. Sigh. I hope though, that it’s enough to sort me with. I would be grateful if you would do so. Either way, thank you for taking the time to read this.
Hmmm. Well, your secondary is pretty straightforward. Lion, with a Bird model. And at the moment your Lion is pretty stressed out, because you’re in an environment where you do not feel able to be truthful and authentic. Primary is harder. Bird for sure, and I think you had a Lion-looking system when you were younger, which you sort of miss. Because at the moment… you’ve put together like a *Burnt Badger* system? Like, community is the ultimate good, but also impossible for you, personally? Trusting the community is impossible, to the degree that even trusting any *information* that gets to you is also impossible? Sorry friend. That sounds brutal. I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself, and I hope you find a better community soon.
badger primary + very burnt lion secondary (bird model)
Hi, I’m a Badger primary and stuck between Lion and Snake secondary. I model Bird and Badger over whatever my (probably pretty burnt) secondary is. Would you mind helping me figure it out?
As a kid, I remember being a total joker in class. I thought it was really funny to trick my friends. I got everyone to start chanting at the teacher once. I’d do something daring (for a first grader) like look up “sex” in the dictionary. It basically just said gender and I was confused about what all the fuss was 🤦🏻♀️.
Definitely see why you’re thinking Improvisational secondary. One of the old-school SHC bits of wisdom is that when proud rule-breaking is a personality trait, that’s usually the sign of a Lion secondary.
My mom didn’t want me reading all night so I hid flashlights under my bed and would pretend to sleep if she checked on me. I’d lie and would only feel bad about it if threatened with consequences. If I got in trouble, I’d lie or pretend I didn’t know what I’d been doing.
But I could also see Snake. Being very proud of your ability to lie or pretend is very Snake to me.
In middle school, my learning disability really began to show and I started having anxiety and possibly PTSD after 9/11. (I’m from NY). That’s when the Bird model kicked in.
As it does.
People at my new school didn’t get my humor and took my trolling literally and it was really uncomfortable. Honestly middle school sucked and most of what I remember is just snobby, awful social stuff.
I’m definitely getting Lion secondary here. You are YOU, it’s very important that you be you, and the problem is that other people don’t get you. Snake secondaries aren’t so binary.
Oh I did manage to get a teammate’s cell phone number and pranked them. And I hacked into someone’s AIM account. And one time I got in a fist fight with someone on a different team of mine and then we were best friends. Which is weird, looking back.
awww Lion secondaries making friends :D
High school was really hard because I had a really hard time with the schoolwork (learning disability was still undiagnosed) and with finding good friends. I got in trouble a few times for offending people by repeating things I didn’t know were offensive, I dressed up as someone kinda controversial for Halloween which is honestly still one of the highlights of my high school experience. I tricked this creepy guy who wouldn’t leave me alone and embarrassed him in front of the whole school. But wouldn’t ever insult someone to their face on purpose unless I completely lost my temper.
Obviously you can have a hot temper and not be a Lion secondary… but I’m already skewing in that direction, and everything you’re saying here is supporting it. Kind of getting a kick out of offending people (or making them uncomfortable) is VERY Lion secondary.
I joined the Political Union club and didn’t really debate because I’m terrible at it.
Lion secondaries tend to be pretty bad at formal debate. That’s more a built secondary thing. Great at giving speeches, though :)
I just watched everyone argue and trolled people. I remember one meeting, people started throwing books at each other and it was amazing. That “agent of chaos” answer on the quiz is me haha.
The “agent of chaos” answer is the Lion secondary answer.
I knew the perfect way to get this one teacher to go off on a tangent about the Soviet Union for the entire lesson. I couldn’t keep up with the schoolwork so I’d BS a lot of it and manage to get by. Participation was key to your grade so I’d read just enough to discuss parts of it and then just make throwaway funny comments and ask good questions to beef up my contributions.
I’d say that gaming the system in this particular way (which I completely support) actually sounds like you Bird secondary model. Which makes sense, if the *purpose* of that model is to help you out in an academic setting.
I think I burned after a traumatic event at the end of my senior year. I started modeling Badger secondary hard. Basically just be sweet and helpful and everything will be fine, right? When that did not, in fact, make everything be fine, I pulled out the manipulation to make damn sure people were on my side.
I’m interested in what you mean by “manipulation.” Because while that’s normally a Snake secondary word, I’m not getting Snake Secondary from you. I suspect you may actually parse your Bird secondary as “manipulation,” which is sort of unusual.
I did still troll sometimes, but I haven’t felt playful and fun in so long. I’ve been really depressed over the last few years about some serious medical problems that can’t really be resolved. I just feel flat like a car stuck in park.
Oh ouch. Yeah, that’s a burnt secondary all right.
I’m scared of failing. I’m scared people won’t like me or that I’ll get in trouble. I don’t have the energy to lie convincingly or put on a show but I also don’t feel safe enough to be blunt. I’m reluctantly forcing myself to be diplomatic while screaming inside.
This is portrait of a Burnt Lion secondary. You’re afraid of failing, but failing is necessary and important to Lions. It’s how they change direction. “Being yourself” had gotten you into trouble and made some people not like you, so you’re scared about going there again. You want to be blunt, but it’s too scary. Instead you’re being diplomatic and putting on a show, both things you define as “lying” (very Lion secondary) but it’s incredibly energy consuming.
I don’t know how to go back to how I was. (I am trying to find a good therapist but it’s hard to find one who specializes in all the things I need, not to mention a good fit personality-wise). When I’m not Like This, I can be really charming. I miss it.
Well, a therapist is the first step. I guess my tiny little piece of advice in the meantime, is find a place in your life where you *can* use your lion again. Make that place as tiny and as low-stakes as you need to. Maybe you have an anonymous blog where you shit-post. Maybe you bring out your Lion for just one person. Maybe go to a weekend convention - if it’s three days with people you never see again, who cares if you get in trouble or offend something. Check out the SHC discord server, and see if any of the other burnt Lionsecs have tips. I know Lions are very all-or-nothing, but I’m a Badger. Baby steps are steps.
I never thought I was a Badger sec modeling Bird until I realized that I made a spreadsheet and emailed it to everyone in the program so they could fill out their info (preferred names, pronouns, and which lab they are in for the program) and get to know each other better XD
It’s a summer program we all just got accepted to, so no one knows anyone yet except each other’s email address from the “To:” section of the email sent from the organizers to us, and the official orientation date is still one month away :3
