Hello, you have a really interesting blog! It’s fascinating to read the process of you sorting someone. I was wondering if you could help me find my sorting.
I don’t know my primary OR my secondary. They might be burnt, but I think this is mostly a result of me overthinking and being shite with self-analysis. Which is a horrible combination.
I’ve found my best work is usually the result of me taking what someone else has done, ripping it apart, adding or removing parts as needed (usually all of them) and then making a cohesive Thing out of it. It’s how I’ve made projects, stories, art, etc.
What an interesting thing to say. Wanting something to start with something which you can then respond to is making me think Improvisational secondary. Snake or Lion?
The process of picking apart someone’s work/advice gives me an idea of what I want to make. Which is why I usually end up doing my work at the last minute, by begging everyone else for their work.
Oooh we’re leveraging the community. So a social secondary like Snake is still very possible, especially with that description of pulling something together last minute using pieces. Very improvisational. But I’m wondering if there’s going to be any Badger in your sorting. Maybe as a primary.
It’s also how I treat advice and suggestion (which annoys my sister a lot, heh). I listen to someone’s suggestions on how to act or react to some problem, and then decide what I want to do. It’s like I need a base to completely disregard. A signpost which tells me, ‘Going left looks like a decent idea’ so that I can decide for myself to go whether to go right or centre. The metaphor is somewhat nonsensical but it’s the best I’ve right now.
So I could read this as just being contrary (rebelling to rebel), or maybe being in a situation where you need to utilize negative indicators. It could be a way to bootstrap a Lion primary - get some outside advice, then see if you emotionally respond positively or negatively. But the fact that you depend so much on your community when deciding what to do makes me think an external primary - Badger or Bird.
Making a plan makes me feel secure, because ‘Finally! A direction to move in.’ However, I’ve never been able to follow any of the plans I have. I usually end up just doing stuff at the last minute when I can’t worry about other things. You know, when my head is too full with an overwhelming sense of ‘I have to do this right now!’ to get distracted. The plan’s just to get me started.
Oh this is executive dysfunction stuff. And not to armchair diagnose, which is super not ethical… but a LOT of neurodivergent people write into me, and a LOT of them have helpful bird secondary models that function as toys/coping techniques.
My go-to method for solving people-problems is to think of the things I want to get across, psyche myself up for the confrontation and just barge on with it. Just, do it. Yeet myself into the tense and undesirable situation and we’ll see what happens. It’s the only good method. The other two are ‘pretend this problem doesn’t exist’ and ‘ignore that person/those people forever’.
Super DUPER Lion secondary. There are two choices 1) Charge at the problem, see what happens 2) Do nothing.
It’s easy for me to fake my investment in things. I got into the Environment Club recently, and in the application form I remember writing about oil spills in a way that made it seem as though it was an issue I’ve been passionate about for a long time. It had only come to my attention when ‘Ocean on Fire in Mexican Waters’ became a headline. I was very proud of that one. While I won’t fake an opinion, I can and will control how passionate I appear about a thing. I am rather proud of this.
Still Lion. That is how Lions face-change - they can raise or lower their intensity.
Secondaries are easy to understand for me. The idea that there is a way of doing things that comes naturally to me is fairly plausible. Primaries on the other hand….they are murky as fuck for me. I always end up getting in tangles over it.
On one hand, it’s natural for a person to prioritise their loved ones and the issues that affect their people over other issues. On the other hand, this is the sort of mindset that stops us from caring about issues beyond our tiny sphere. The sort of things that makes us indifferent towards the suffering of those who are not a part of your group or one of your people. What is the correct mode of action here?
The way this is phrased, and even the way it’s framed as a search for the “correct” answer is already very Bird. I’m going to keep on using Sartre’s Loyalist vs Idealist example because it’s such a good one, but philosophers and moralists have been debating “objectively correct” morality for… a long time now.
Obviously, we can’t spend all our time caring about causes that don’t affect us. Not only will it make us laughing-stock it is also a foolish idea. A person’s priority, in my opinion, ought to be bettering their life and helping alleviate the problems that plague them and the people around them. Of course, it is every person’s right to choose what to care about, and to find what works for them, but in my opinion starting with what’s around will show maximum results and well, it just feels more right.
I think we have a Bird primary with a Badger-flavored system.
When I have to make an opinion, I first try to see if it’s something I can avoid. Seriously, having an opinion is so difficult. Socialising is easier than forming an opinion.
Oh ouch. I think it’s very possible that your bird might be a little bit… burnt. Or exploded. Specifically the frozen Chidi-style Exploded Bird, because how can you do *anything* if you don’t know *for sure* it’s objectively right.
I don’t have to make many moral decisions in my daily life, most of us don’t. I try to avoid passing judgements on topics I don’t know about or ones that appear too morally grey.
Primaries aren’t just about moral decisions. They’re also about things that you, you know. Want. The things that get you out of bed in the morning.
As a kid, I used to make snap judgments all the time and incessantly defend them in the face of opposition, but now it just feels foolhardy to do.
That’s definitely your stubborn Lion secondary combining with an Idealist primary. Immature Glory Hound Lion or Black-and-White Bird.
Not to mention having to change my opinion after realising that I made a mistake (which happens often) is really fucking embarrassing, even if it’s something I’m doing in private.
I mean, no one LIKES being wrong. But the choice of the word “embarrassing” is skewing me more Bird. I’d expect a Lion to say something like making a mistake is “miserable” or “stressful” or “disorientating.”
And not changing my opinion when confronted with new information makes me feel pathetic.
Yeah. Bird.
There’s also the reality of ever pervasive fake news and showing + wording things in a light favourable to the people funding the news. I have zero trust in any of the media outlets I have around me (paranoia ftw!).
We have an Exploded Bird. No wonder you don’t like having opinions on things. You’ve cut off your ability to take in new information.
The same goes for what other people tell me, including my family. While I want to believe them (my family), they’re dead wrong about something I believe in with all my heart. So, what’s to say that they couldn’t be wrong about other things too?
Nobody can be right all the time. It sucks.
I love my family, and I’ll love them even if they disown me once I come out (I’m bisexual and they’re queerphobic).
I think it must be really, really brutal to have a loud lion secondary and also have to stay in the closet for an extended period of time.
As long as their mistreatment will be limited to throwing me out of the family, I won’t stop caring about them. They’re my family. They would have to become pretty terrible people for me to cut off ties with them.
So you’ve basically given me a set-up where you don’t feel able to have an opinion on anything, apart from a sort of generalized Badger worldview, and then you hit me with something as intensely loyalist as this? Is there a really Burnt Badger (or even really burnt Snake) underneath the Bird? Or is this a Loyalist talking point/model that you’ve picked up somewhere? Or is your Badger system just like, super intense? (also, is it just me, but have you kicked yourself out of your own system?)
This attitude was the one I used to have with my friends. Until I realised that friendship doesn’t work out for me for some reason. I’m simply grateful for company now. I only show people the degree of care that I feel they will reciprocate. I don’t want to be taken advantage of by people whom I choose to become close to.
This is sounding intensely Burnt Badger? Like you want a community, but communities don’t feel safe.
A lot of Shonen anime at an impressionable age has left me with high standards for friendships.
… or maybe you’ve got Prince Charming Syndrome, only with friendships.
If one of my family did or said something that I disagreed with and which granted them public condemnation, would I stand by them or condemn them? I would do both. I wouldn’t pretend to agree with what they said (doing that would make me feel horrible) but I would stand by them.
Lion secondary. Some kind of Loyalist *something* primary.
I will never lie about my opinions. I don’t care what punishment I get. I’ll either make it really obvious that I don’t agree with the majority opinion, make myself scarce or just outright argue about it.
… because you’re a Lion secondary.
I can’t lie without feeling guilty. It’s a hassle really, but what can one do? I’ve settled on becoming more authentic and truthful. I don’t want to hurt people with my actions or words. Apparently, I need to show my anger (per my therapist) but how can I do that without crossing any lines? Without making people feel bad?
You’ve probably heard this from your therapist, but sometimes people are just going to find you unpleasant. It’s inevitable, and it’s ultimately not that big of a deal. In the end, everybody is responsible for their *own* emotional well-being.
What if I was wrong for no reason?
… and there’s that exploded Bird primary coming back.
If something has hurt me, I do my level best to never do it to other people. Basically, ‘not hurting others’ is a pretty big rule in my book. It’s one I’ll bend sometimes, but not without reason. After all, a rule that doesn’t have exceptions is either something really obvious (‘no murder’) or something incredibly vague (‘always do good things’).
bird bird bird bird bird
As a kid, I was really power/fame-hungry. Now, I just want to feel secure, without second-guessing myself and my actions. Massive priority shift. Kid me didn’t really think about stuff beyond wanting to be the most powerful person on Earth. I wish I could go back to that.
… do you really though? :) But it is interesting that young you sounds so much like a Glory Hound Lion. I wonder if your Badger-flavored system used to be a lot more Lion-flavored, or if this is maybe a side effect of having a really loud Lion secondary.
I wish I could do things that have a tangible effect on the state of affairs. I wish I could hand-wave the world’s problems away. I wish, at the very least, I had a book telling me what to do, and I how to do it.
THE BOOK FANTASY. You are like the fifth person who has written in with “I wish I had a book that told me what to do.” It’s always in exactly those words too. This seems to be a VERY common Bird primary fantasy.
Although on second thought, I would probably read the book and cherry-pick advice that makes sense to me. And that’s if I even believed the book in the first-place.
… and then the Exploded element of your Bird kicks in.
……..So, I suppose that’s about it. It feels like it’s all over the place, and at more than one place I’ve tmi’d while at the same time not giving enough information. Sigh. I hope though, that it’s enough to sort me with. I would be grateful if you would do so. Either way, thank you for taking the time to read this.
Hmmm. Well, your secondary is pretty straightforward. Lion, with a Bird model. And at the moment your Lion is pretty stressed out, because you’re in an environment where you do not feel able to be truthful and authentic. Primary is harder. Bird for sure, and I think you had a Lion-looking system when you were younger, which you sort of miss. Because at the moment… you’ve put together like a *Burnt Badger* system? Like, community is the ultimate good, but also impossible for you, personally? Trusting the community is impossible, to the degree that even trusting any *information* that gets to you is also impossible? Sorry friend. That sounds brutal. I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself, and I hope you find a better community soon.
hi, i’d really appreciate it if you could help sort me because i think that both my primary and secondary are either burnt or i’ve just overanalyzed this since all of the descriptions for the houses seem relatable to some extent. i’ll start with the secondary. i don’t particularly enjoy using any method of the secondaries.
Burnt secondary? Lots of models?
i honestly can’t even find a pattern from the things that have worked best for me. the best things in my life always happened when i wasn’t forcing anything, they just sort of fell into place, so i just feel like i’ve had luck?
Hmm. “Just lucky I guess” is usually a description of a Snake secondary… but it’s not really a way Snake secondaries describe themselves. That’s more the perspective of someone outside looking in. It’s possible that you just haven’t thought much about your methods before?
i have to do lists for the day and week, since it definitely calms me down when i know clearly what im supposed to accomplish in a day, but beyond that i don’t make plans.
The way this is famed as something you “have” to do that “calms you down,” - basically an anti-anxiety tactic - makes me think it’s probably a support system. I’m gong with Bird secondary model for now.
i don’t even know how i solve problems? i am both confrontational and non-confrontational haha. i never want to leave things unsaid and not explain myself properly to people.
That’s Lion (actually, maybe that’s why you don’t know how you solve problems. The classic Lion secondary just jumps in and reacts.) Even this idea of the on/off of confrontational/non-confrontational is very Lion.
when it comes to other problems that aren’t people-related i guess i’m quick and can come up with a solution on the spot.
Improvisational secondary.
i def relate to snake bc i do think it’s a luxury to be able to be fully myself in front of people.
That is a tremendously Lion way of conceptualizing snake. “Oh I get Snake, they’re acting all the time, but what they REALLY want is to be able to feel safe enough to go into neutral.” A snake loves the masks. A snake *is* the masks.
i’ve also been told i’m really stubborn.
Lion.
i tell the occasional white lie, as in, i might soften my criticisms to not offend ppl, or i make up an excuse for why i cant go out if i’d rather stay at home. i would never lie about important things like my beliefs and misrepresent myself, or about anything that has actual serious consequences. but, if i really wanted to, or i’m really pressed, i usually have no problem with coming up with something on the spot (and i’m not proud of it, in fact, i don’t like myself for it).
Lions *can* lie (it’s really only in fiction that you get the Absolutely Incapable of Lying Lion.) They just… really really don’t like it. It make them feel sticky.
i’m definitely known to be smart and hardworking and kind, because i do genuinely do the work and finish what i start, but i don’t know if i find any particular enjoyment in it? sure, it feels nice to be honest and to see things through, but i also don’t mind doing things another way.
Again, you focused in on the most Lion-y part of a Badger secondary, and said that’s what “feels nice.” Other than that, sounds like a useful Badger model. Really common.
i do care about disappointing the people who have a good opinion of me though.
A Badger primary? Don’t want to disappoint the community?
as for primary i prioritize myself and my people which i know is very snakey, but i don’t always like the fact that i do that.
Okay interesting. I’m still thinking Badger… but maybe… Burnt Badger? Burnt Badgers will act like snakes and kind of hate it. Or maybe we’ve got a Snake model?
i relate to bird because i like to base my morality based on external information, to have some solid ground and some solid rules which i try to live by. i can even change my believes easily if i receive new info.
External primary. Still kind of leaning Badger. I know you’re thinking bird, and while it’s *possible*… I’m just not getting Bird from you yet. (A bird would be telling me all about their rules.)
i don’t know if i’m really snake bc i think i can also be selfish and put my wants/goals/morals above those of even my people.
And you clearly don’t *like* the fact that you do this. I’m not even sure if your Badger is burned, I think it might just be guilty. No one is a perfect, unblemished, shining example of their sorting at all times.
and i don’t know if i’m a bird who models snake, or a snake who models bird.
I am honestly getting neither of those things.
in fights with friends i always looked at things objectively and supported the person i thought was right until my best friend said that that bothered her, so after that i tried to always defend her.
So does that mean you felt *more* moral defending your friend no questions asked, or *less* moral?
as to why i relate to lion, it’s because i do like to trust my gut and honestly it’s never been wrong, but i don’t think i make decisions simply based on that. i also don’t know if i’d place some ideal over actual people.
my god you are such a Loyalist.
i don’t really understand what a lion’s cause is? how do they decide on that?
Oh, you don’t choose your cause. Your cause chooses you.
one more thing that i think is very lion is that i’ve often been annoyed by people who have to have some external data tell them that some things are right and some things are wrong. yes, there’s nuance, but i guess i just can’t understand why you need justification to believe smth as basic as people deserve food, and water and housing.
I mean, I know you’re framing this in a Lion way, and sure this could be Lion. But all I’m hearing is that core Badger primary emotion “they matter because they’re people!”
the one primary i def know im not is badger,
This is going to be good.
since i don’t really care for communities. just like i don’t understand a lion’s cause, i also don’t really understand what ppl mean by community. i wouldn’t treat anyone differently depending on whether of not they’re a part of my community.
It’s because you’re a Universal Badger, and it’s lovely. You don’t understand what people mean by ‘community’ because you’re too deep inside it. You don’t see how anyone could exist without the cosmic understanding of “community” that you have.
i’d treat them differently based on my opinion of them/their relation to me.
There *is* still something a little Snakey, or possibly Burned badger, sneaking in here.
i still offer everyone basic politeness and kindness though.
My *guess* is your idea of what “basic kindness” is is… very different from a Snake primary’s.
the main thing is that i can simply choose what to care about.
That’s an external primary thing (Bird or Badger)
i guess i’d feel the most bad if i caused the people i care about harm or if i disappointed them.
I know this is kind of a wording trick, but Snakes really do talk about individuals - “My brother” “my mom” “my significant other.” You have talked about “the people who have a good opinion of me” “the people I care about” “my people” “friends” “actual people.” The only individual you’ve mentioned is your best friend, the one who told you it bothered her when you didn’t back her up. I think it’s actually possible this *friend* might be a Snake primary, and if she’s really important to you… you might have built a Snake model for her that you are a little uncomfortable with.
i’ve also seen that you should look back to your childhood to sort yourself and as a child i knew i wanted to be successful and i knew i wanted to help people and the environment, but they were always vague ideas.
Bagder.
mostly, i was content with playing and spending time with my parents/grandparents/friends.
BADGER. (And again, notice all the collective nouns.)
i daydreamed of being a princess and an actress so that my family would be financially secure and would never worry about money.
You are adorable. (I seriously love Badger primaries.)
if it helps to sort me, i had to choose between studying smth i was passionate about in college and going into STEM bc it was more stable. in the end, i decided on the latter. i’m not going to lie i was miserable for a year and a half into it, but i pushed through it, and now i’m in my final year and kind of happy that i did. i rlly relate to one answer in the sortinghatchats quiz that says i made my choice, now i live with it, life only moves in a forward direction.
That probably was a tricky decision, especially with your Lion secondary, but yeah. External primaries can just sort of decide to care about things, and it’s extremely cool.
sorry for the long post, but i’d really appreciate the help. i love your blog and posts!
Good afternoon Wisteria! I was hoping for your input with my sorting. This MAY become a novel, and i apologize ahead of time for that. Hopefully its interesting, if nothing else.
I am having trouble with both my primary and secondary. Ive thought i had it figured out so many times and then i would reanalyze myself and get confused. So i guess ill start with primaries. I can tell you for sure that i am not a snake primary. I just cant love another person quite like that. I grew up in a very snake primary environment and never felt i really fit in. I really appreciate snakes and i understand them, but i dont think i am one. I also very much pride myself on my individuality and dont bond to groups so i believe that may rule out badger. I think ive narrowed it down to exploded bird or really confused lion.
Interesting. So far so good. Let’s hear what you’ve got.
Right now in life, with all the information coming at me, all the data, all of the twists and turns, media bias, conspiracy theories, rabbit holes and objective realities, i cant figure out the truth.
… sounds like an Exploded Bird to me.
I think all theories are worth investigating and rabbit holes are fun. But i hate hypocrisy. And its everywhere.
I mean, everyone hates hypocrisy… but I think Birds find it *unforgivable.*
I cant organize all of this information.
Exploded Bird.
Dude. Whats gonna happen if deep fake becomes the norm?
eh, Photoshop has been the norm for a long time and we do okay. Some fakes have always been better than others, and there have always been fakes.
I feel like the safest thing to do is to fully understand myself. Then i can analyze and understand the world.
I would agree with that.
I would say that hands down i was an exploded bird, but i feel very strongly about things right away. But then i learn about them more and if my feelings were wrong, ok. Whatever.
This is still Bird. It’s not that Birds can’t feel strongly about things right away. They do, they just don’t feel safe TRUSTING those feelings. Instead they do… exactly what you’re describing here. Learn more, and then if it turns out their initial feelings were wrong… that’s fine, actually. The feelings are of secondary importance.
BUT i also WANT black and white. I want right and wrong. Grey, though necessary and true, bugs me.
… there’s a reason why I call young Birds Black-and-White Birds.
Deep down i crave to just understand something as it is. But one persons truth is not anothers. I get that. But it still bothers me in my bones.
That’s a very Bird primary angst. Birds can have this *fantasy* that if only everyone had all the information and thought it though properly, that everyone would come to the same (correct) conclusion. And then have to grapple with the fallout when they realize things don’t work that way. As a Lion… I’ve never had to fight that particular monster.
I can also seem like i make snap decisions based on feelings to others, but i just know what i want. If something sounds good, i want to do it. At that moment. No hesitation… i think im meshing into secondary territory here
I agree. Improvisational secondary, sounds like.
so ill just go with it. So my bedroom walls are lilac purple and my kitchen is BRIGHT yellow, because those colors sounded interesting. At that moment. I tend to jump into a project having no idea what im doing. I just thought it sounded like fun.
Comfortable making decisions on a whim, just jumping in. Very improvisational.
But thats not really a way to problem solve. When i start said project and then run into a problem, usually ill read about it, or ask someone who knows more than me. The “i know a guy” bird kind of applies here. I know how to make connections within my community and i plan for that. I think about who would be useful to know, based on my goals.
You know, this could be Bird. But I’m kind of skewing more Badger because of the emphasis on community and asking for help. And keeping an eye on ‘who is powerful, who is useful to know’ is a pretty common Badger secondary model manifestation.
But i dont think i build tools like a bird. In fact, binge watching videos on how to do something annoys me. Takes all the fun out of it.
I still think you’re an Improvisational secondary - and a Badger secondary model is *more* likely than a Bird secondary model.
I am always honest with people and i like that about me, but its not out of some need to stay true to myself. Its just because i have learned that honesty works the best most of the time.
So not Lion *primary* then. This is all about method. You don’t lie, because you don’t find it to be a very practical problem-solving method. Being very direct does work, so at this point… Lion is more likely than snake.
Now, dont get me wrong, i am an excellent liar. But only if its on the fly.
Hmm. Maybe a Snake who’s in neutral all the time?
This conflicts big time with my primary, however, so i rarely ever do.
Interesting. Lying conflicts with your (hypocrisy hating) Bird primary, so you don’t do it. Instead you are very direct, and that works well for you. You *can* lie (on the fly) but you generally don’t. Neutral Snake? Snake secondary model? Depending on how you define lying, could even be Courtier Badger. (I am ruling out constructed Actor Bird.)
I feel like ive gone all over the place in a highly disorganized way, so i will state that now i am going to give some anecdotal data. One time, as an adult, i was hanging out with a bunch of kids on a hayride. A little boy killed a butterfly. I was outraged. I called him out. I told him that he just took away the only life that creature would ever have and that was cruel.
Very loud Idealist primary.
This somehow turned into a question and answer school session about human biology, mammals and why on earth is water in a cup clear, but when you dive into the ocean, its blue?
Some kind of social secondary… and I know the obvious thing is to say 'trotting out a lot of facts, that’s bird.’ But I’m seeing you defuse a situation by leveraging your immediate community (Q&A session)? Badger.
I like being the person that gets the scary bugs out of the house because i feel brave when i do.
Sounds pretty Lion secondary.
When in an emergency situation i completely disconnect and become a calm, knowledgeable person.
This is actually a pretty common just, human thing. When things get bad enough, your lizard brain takes over, and everything is very calm and dreamlike.
I suddenly magically know what needs to be done and work with my environment.
Improvisational secondary.
Im also very aware of how everyone else is doing in that situation and i have an innate need to make people feel better so im usually the first to lighten the mood. Ill focus on others before myself if im hurt. Im more aware of how they are doing than how i am doing and i will make an effort to help them first.
Ah yes, the 'tend and befriend’ threat response. Very familiar. And yeah, going from this description I’m going to say very social badger.
In video games… skyrim is best here i think. I want to be a sneaky mage thief. But when something attacks me, without thinking i run right up to it and hit it with my fists without armor.
lol lion. (The classic Badger secondary strategy is BUFF ARMOR. I always play tanks.)
But i get really sad if its an animal.Those wolf whimpers get to me every time.
No one likes the wolf whimpers.
Ok. Ok. Ive rambled enough. Thank you for reading! Any input is greatly appreciated! Thank you!
Exploded Bird, easy. And probably a Lion secondary with a very social Badger secondary model that’s working well for you.
badger primary + very burnt lion secondary (bird model)
Hi, I’m a Badger primary and stuck between Lion and Snake secondary. I model Bird and Badger over whatever my (probably pretty burnt) secondary is. Would you mind helping me figure it out?
As a kid, I remember being a total joker in class. I thought it was really funny to trick my friends. I got everyone to start chanting at the teacher once. I’d do something daring (for a first grader) like look up “sex” in the dictionary. It basically just said gender and I was confused about what all the fuss was 🤦🏻♀️.
Definitely see why you’re thinking Improvisational secondary. One of the old-school SHC bits of wisdom is that when proud rule-breaking is a personality trait, that’s usually the sign of a Lion secondary.
My mom didn’t want me reading all night so I hid flashlights under my bed and would pretend to sleep if she checked on me. I’d lie and would only feel bad about it if threatened with consequences. If I got in trouble, I’d lie or pretend I didn’t know what I’d been doing.
But I could also see Snake. Being very proud of your ability to lie or pretend is very Snake to me.
In middle school, my learning disability really began to show and I started having anxiety and possibly PTSD after 9/11. (I’m from NY). That’s when the Bird model kicked in.
As it does.
People at my new school didn’t get my humor and took my trolling literally and it was really uncomfortable. Honestly middle school sucked and most of what I remember is just snobby, awful social stuff.
I’m definitely getting Lion secondary here. You are YOU, it’s very important that you be you, and the problem is that other people don’t get you. Snake secondaries aren’t so binary.
Oh I did manage to get a teammate’s cell phone number and pranked them. And I hacked into someone’s AIM account. And one time I got in a fist fight with someone on a different team of mine and then we were best friends. Which is weird, looking back.
awww Lion secondaries making friends :D
High school was really hard because I had a really hard time with the schoolwork (learning disability was still undiagnosed) and with finding good friends. I got in trouble a few times for offending people by repeating things I didn’t know were offensive, I dressed up as someone kinda controversial for Halloween which is honestly still one of the highlights of my high school experience. I tricked this creepy guy who wouldn’t leave me alone and embarrassed him in front of the whole school. But wouldn’t ever insult someone to their face on purpose unless I completely lost my temper.
Obviously you can have a hot temper and not be a Lion secondary… but I’m already skewing in that direction, and everything you’re saying here is supporting it. Kind of getting a kick out of offending people (or making them uncomfortable) is VERY Lion secondary.
I joined the Political Union club and didn’t really debate because I’m terrible at it.
Lion secondaries tend to be pretty bad at formal debate. That’s more a built secondary thing. Great at giving speeches, though :)
I just watched everyone argue and trolled people. I remember one meeting, people started throwing books at each other and it was amazing. That “agent of chaos” answer on the quiz is me haha.
The “agent of chaos” answer is the Lion secondary answer.
I knew the perfect way to get this one teacher to go off on a tangent about the Soviet Union for the entire lesson. I couldn’t keep up with the schoolwork so I’d BS a lot of it and manage to get by. Participation was key to your grade so I’d read just enough to discuss parts of it and then just make throwaway funny comments and ask good questions to beef up my contributions.
I’d say that gaming the system in this particular way (which I completely support) actually sounds like you Bird secondary model. Which makes sense, if the *purpose* of that model is to help you out in an academic setting.
I think I burned after a traumatic event at the end of my senior year. I started modeling Badger secondary hard. Basically just be sweet and helpful and everything will be fine, right? When that did not, in fact, make everything be fine, I pulled out the manipulation to make damn sure people were on my side.
I’m interested in what you mean by “manipulation.” Because while that’s normally a Snake secondary word, I’m not getting Snake Secondary from you. I suspect you may actually parse your Bird secondary as “manipulation,” which is sort of unusual.
I did still troll sometimes, but I haven’t felt playful and fun in so long. I’ve been really depressed over the last few years about some serious medical problems that can’t really be resolved. I just feel flat like a car stuck in park.
Oh ouch. Yeah, that’s a burnt secondary all right.
I’m scared of failing. I’m scared people won’t like me or that I’ll get in trouble. I don’t have the energy to lie convincingly or put on a show but I also don’t feel safe enough to be blunt. I’m reluctantly forcing myself to be diplomatic while screaming inside.
This is portrait of a Burnt Lion secondary. You’re afraid of failing, but failing is necessary and important to Lions. It’s how they change direction. “Being yourself” had gotten you into trouble and made some people not like you, so you’re scared about going there again. You want to be blunt, but it’s too scary. Instead you’re being diplomatic and putting on a show, both things you define as “lying” (very Lion secondary) but it’s incredibly energy consuming.
I don’t know how to go back to how I was. (I am trying to find a good therapist but it’s hard to find one who specializes in all the things I need, not to mention a good fit personality-wise). When I’m not Like This, I can be really charming. I miss it.
Well, a therapist is the first step. I guess my tiny little piece of advice in the meantime, is find a place in your life where you *can* use your lion again. Make that place as tiny and as low-stakes as you need to. Maybe you have an anonymous blog where you shit-post. Maybe you bring out your Lion for just one person. Maybe go to a weekend convention - if it’s three days with people you never see again, who cares if you get in trouble or offend something. Check out the SHC discord server, and see if any of the other burnt Lionsecs have tips. I know Lions are very all-or-nothing, but I’m a Badger. Baby steps are steps.
So, I get scared and nervous easily, and procrastinate endlessly.
Okay, we’ve got some anxiety and some executive functioning stuff here, which might be getting in the way of you using your secondary.
Charging is hard for me to do. Evading isn’t, but I don’t think I enjoy it. Sure, there are times when I feel like some mastermind, watching as the chips fall where I want them to/where I predicted they would, but it’s more of an intellectual satisfaction than an emotional one. I don’t come out of it feeling good about myself.
Sounds like a Snake secondary model (you can use that skillset, but it doesn’t feel good.) Interesting.
Lying comes easy to me. It’s like a well-worn instrument in my hand. I know how to use it, I know what I’ll get out of it.
Conceptualizing this particular skill as a *tool* is kinda making me think… Bird? (The Snake is definitely a model)
Using it correctly means avoiding confrontations, messing it up means lowering my trustworthiness in the eyes of others. (Which I don’t want to have happen, but I’ve no idea what else to do.)
Whatever secondary you’ve got underneath the Snake seems a little burned. ‘I don’t want to solve problems the way I have been, but I just don’t see any other options.’
I naturally used to act differently in front of different people, but over the years I just.. stopped that. I’m still not sure why.
That could mean that you used to have a more performance-based secondary (Courtier Badger, Actor Bird) that burned, and so now you don’t use it anymore. OR it could mean that at one point you had a model that you have since dropped.
I also used to be the “we’re not so different, you and I” type of guy except I stopped doing that too,
I’m not sure exactly what you mean by that. “We’re not so different, you and I” is a stock villain phrase, and we already know that you conceive of your Snake model as sort of villainous (using words like ‘mastermind’ and ‘lying.’)
BUT “we’re not so different, you and I” is just… a way of describing how Courtier Badgers work. You find the common ground, and you live there.
and now social interactions are just a lot of floundering around for me. A whole lot of Awkward.
Either way, you’re a little burnt. You don’t believe you’re good at the social stuff.
In my life, there have been super-specific instances when I got into an argument on one of my ’good days’, and I was able to retort and stand my ground
Lion secondary?
without feeling scared of offending the other person.
… or maybe not. Lions, especially when they’re in righteous argument mode, just do not care about offending the other person. The other person can deal. That *specific* worry is more like… Badger or Bird, because they construct themselves around other people.
I felt really good about myself, like I knew where I stood, and why I was standing there.
That’s a primary thing. I’d love to know what your primary is (based on this, it’s probably Idealist.) That would make this a lot easier, because the language used to discuss Lion primaries and secondaries is very similar, and you can get false positives.
It was a mix of security and surety that came from knowing why I believed what I believed
Oh. Bird primary.
combined with the confidence and drive to stand my ground regardless of how much the other person got pissed.
There we go. Lion secondary.
[However, there are also times when I get into the flow of whatever work I’m doing, and just doing the work brings me immense joy. Which could be a Badger Sec trait or a Human trait, not quite sure.]
I’m inclined to say that’s just human :)
Most of what I said sounds kind of Lion-y, except I feel really intimidated and irritated by Lions. More than once I’ve shouted “THERE’S AN EASY WAY OUT, JUST CHOOSE THAT, YOU HONOURABLE GIT!” at the TV screen.
If you’re Burnt, it’s really REALLY common to look at the UnBurnt guys and think they’re stupid, naive, annoying, or childish.
annoyed at yet reluctantly admiring of the Lion secondary I was viewing
… but are kind of drawn to them anyway.
I suspect my sister is a Lion, but even if I love her to bits I can’t stand her constant need for honesty. Besides, it’s hypocritical of her to demand honesty when she’s spoken lies herself.
I suspect that this is a Primary mismatch. It’s totally possible that from her point of view, she *was* being honest. But Birds, and especially Bird Lions, are really really bothered by any kind of word/action mismatch.
Whatever we say gets distorted in the end, both because of our limitations as speakers and the listener’s biases.
That’s a very Bird primary anxiety.
I would rather my lies get distorted and misinterpreted than my truths. At least those don’t matter to me.
That’s a very… burnt Lion secondary thing to say. You want to put your truth out there, but you fundamentally don’t believe you can.
[If I had to choose, I would say my favourites are Bird secondaries. They’re so simple and efficient, and so uncomplicated (which I mean in the best possible way).]
Burnt Lion secondary, Snake secondary model for sure. And *probably* some sort of Built secondary model that you like using more than the Snake, which kicks in during more solo situations where your very social Snake isn’t appropriate.
Hi!!!!! I was hoping if you could maybe help me sort through my secondary. There’s a lot of fog and this ask is kind of a word vomit and I’m so sorry about that.
I always tease about how apologetic asks are usually evidence of a burnt secondary. Wonder if that’ll end up being the case.
I use Badger for sure. My mom is a pretty loud Badger so I may have picked it up from there. Badger is probably the most useful secondary. Steady hard work, being liked by people, its useful in basically everything. Its especially useful in school.
Sounds a whole lot like a badger model. It’s what you think you should be doing, what you think it’s best to be doing, but it’s… emotionally removed from you. Arm’s length.
Use bird to make a quick mental plan and then slowly do the work bit by bit.
Still sounds like a Badger model. I’ve talked before about how “plan” is a really, really vague word that you can use to describe like half of the primaries and secondaries.
I’m definitely the kind of person who doesn’t change methods that often. Once I find something I’m comfortable with/works why would I change it???
Hmm. Now that could be Lion. (Or still badger, it’s possible to be a badger secondary while also modeling badger… but that’s a little more rare.)
I may try other methods to see if they’re more efficient in low stakes situations though.
That doesn’t sound like a badger talking. Badgers tend to get more hung up on the “right” method. THAT could be a bird.
I was also definitely the kid the teachers liked because I was quiet and I did my work. I could go wander down the hallways during study hall and no one would question. Not that I did that because I was too afraid of getting in trouble.
Doesn’t tell me anything. Badger model, or even Badger performance. Really common.
I don’t see Badger because I don’t enjoy work. I’m doing it more for the long term goal. I feel like I did enjoy homework at one point when I was younger but idk if that counts. I like work when it’s drawing I guess, but that’s kind of the point of art. To enjoy the process.
That thing about art is interesting. You say it like it’s an absolute given that the point of art is to enjoy the process. Now, I was a freelance artist for a while and I come from a family of freelance artists, so I know I have very specific perspective on the process of creating art. But I definitely know that enjoying the process is not the only way to approach art. The process can be a slog but you do it because you want to improve your craft. Or because you want to see this thing completed. Or because you’re experimenting. Or work though some aspect of your soul. A million reasons.
But the fact that you do say this is interesting. So far, creating art is the only thing you’ve mentioned enjoying, and you enjoy it because you just get to slide into it and enjoy the process. Which I kind of interpret as “I don’t have to plan when it comes to art.” That’s making me think you might actually be an improvisational secondary, and art is the one place that it’s socially acceptable for this part of yourself to come out.
I have no issues with baking mixes. I will be prouder of a from scratch creation though. Short cuts aren’t an issue if they’re moral shortcuts and I’m definitely a “work smarter not harder,” kind of person.
Yeah, I don’t think you’re a badger. (but like, there are badger voices in your life.)
Lion, I can relate to the need to be myself. I was a really quiet kid because I was constantly afraid of saying something stupid or being bossy and then eventually that just became I dont know what to say to anyone anymore
This sounds burned. You know what you want to do (be spontaneous, be large and in charge, which sounds fairly Lion) but feel that this way of acting and thinking is incorrect. So you frame it negatively as “stupid” or “bossy” and don’t really do *anything.* Which yeah, can happen when a secondary burns, and can especially happen when a Lion secondary burns.
I would rather shut up then try. If I can’t refrain from saying dumb things then I’ll just be quiet.
This is the language of burning. Who told you that the things you say are dumb? You don’t sound dumb. None of this sounds like “word vomit” either.
When I face problems lately I avoid it for as long as possible until the panic of not doing it gets too much and then I sit and do it.
This bit is worded in a sort of vague way, so I don’t want to tie it to any particular secondary. This could be the Lion stop-start thing, but it could also be just garden-variety executive function issues, and you do give me slight neurodivergent vibes.
I’m honestly a little bit burned out at this point because I’m just kind of plowing through assignments. Finishing them because my grades are important to me but I’m not doing them well. Honestly I’ve always felt like I’m not doing well enough. I never seem to be putting in enough effort.
Ouch. Yeah, your badger secondary model sounds like it’s burning from overuse.
Bird is another one I’m almost certain I model. If Badger is the most useful secondary then Bird is a close second. The ability to make plans and having random specific tools has helped me. I used to really love collecting facts and stuff but I don’t really enjoy that anymore.
Could definitely be a fun - although now sadly also burnt - Bird model.
I would probably be most insulted if someone called me stupid and most hurt if someone called me mean, even though I am and I can be.
Wait, you think you’re stupid or you think you’re mean? Or both?
I don’t know if that has anything to do with my secondary though. I don’t want to hurt anyone but being straightforward can be cruel and I’m learning the difference of when it is needed and when it is cruel and trying my best to apply that based on the situation. My family (mostly my mom) has always been extremely straightforward with us even when it wasn’t really needed and that may be an explanation but I will not allow myself to make that an excuse.
Okay. So you’re saying that a straightforward communication style can be cruel, which I would actually disagree with. Brutal, maybe. Hard to hear, sure. But not cruel. I have always found the extreme directness of like, New Yorkers, to be merciful and even kind. Like, ‘I respect you enough not to bullshit you. I know you can take it.’ There’s an element of 'tell me the bad news Doc so I can do something about it.’
But anyway. You think straightforward communication can be cruel, and you think this because you think your family has been inappropriately “straightforward” with you. And that could mean anything. That could mean your parents are being “straightforward” with you about like, their relationship issues or money problems, which could lead to some unhealthy family dynamics. Or (I hope I’m wrong) but it’s possible that your family has called you “stupid” or “dumb” or “bossy” or “mean,” and when you asked then to stop they defended themselves by just saying they were being “straightforward.” When of course, calling someone stupid is not straightforward at all. Words like “stupid” or “mean” by themselves are too imprecise to actually mean anything.
The truth is not worth it if it hurts people without good reason. Like if it hurts temporarily but helps them in the long time it’s okay, I can live with myself at least.
This sounds kinda badger primary, which may be you. As a Lion primary, I would come at it from a different direction. I would say the truth is always worth it, and if people can’t handle it that’s their problem. However. I also think there are people who are not ready or not able to hear the truth. And if I slam my head against them over and over trying to make them see a thing they can’t see, well. I’m basically just torturing myself for no reason.
None of this has to do with my secondary tho so I’m going to stop rambling. Basically I don’t think I really have a preferred method at this point.
Yeah, unfortunately you do seem pretty burnt.
My first thoughts are usually to be direct and just run headfirst until I solve the problem but I’m hesitant and I know that leads to hurting people, higher chances of failure,
Well, that’s just the textbook language of a burnt Lion secondary.
and on top of that I have a healthy sense of self preservation, thank u very much. (I refused to learn how to monkey-bar until I was basically tall enough to touch the ground because why risk falling and scraping your knees when there are more fun, safer options like slides???)
“Lion secondary” isn’t synonymous with “likes spelunking.” All it means is that you feel better and safer and less stressed when you think on your feet and speak your truth.
So I use plans, and I think things through as much as possible before acting. Long term goals, I use work on top of the plan.
Long term goals starts getting into primary territory. Secondaries is like… how would you defeat a really hard boss in a video game?
I definitely would like to be Lion the most (There’s just this super admirable strength and courage to Lion secondaries, though Badger is always beautiful and Bird is highly impressive. Snakes are the most fun/do not give a f and that is awesome too.)
And there’s something to that. Really liking a certain primary/secondary, or really liking characters with a certain primary or secondary does tell me something.
and I feel like I’ve kind of coded this to get that result
I agree, there is some deliberate “please tell me I’m Lion!” language in here. Which is a bit suspicious, and maybe you should at least consider Snake, since that’s a Snakey move. But then telling me about it is Lion again. Mostly what I’m seeing here is you wanting someone to affirm this aspect of yourself, and tell you that it isn’t a bad way to be.
hopefully I haven’t and you can still help figure it out. Thank you so much for all of your help and for reading my extremely long, annoying ramblings.
You are not stupid, dumb, annoying, bossy, or mean. And I’ve called people out for being bossy or mean in these write-ups before. I think you’re a Lion secondary who thinks that’s not an okay way to be, and is burning themselves out modeling Badger.
hi, wisteria! i'm so happy that i found your blog as i tumbled down the shc rabbit hole. i love this system, it's been super fun to analyze characters, friends, and family-- but i'm having a hard time seeing how i might fit into it. i was hoping you could help? i'm pretty confident that i'm not a bird. i believe in divine guidance/intuition/whatever you want to call it. feelings that guide us in ways that we just can't explain.
So far that’s sounding like a Lion primary’s subconscious reasoning.
the center of my morality, though, is people. no matter how someone dresses it up, i don't believe that anything could justify inflicting pain others.
Could be a classic Paragon Lion - you’ve got Badger tenants to your morality, but you feel it in a Lion way rather than a Badger way.
some of my earliest childhood memories involve me crying in an anti-bullying lesson because i could imagine how i would feel being called names. another memory is me deciding to pay attention to the teacher because he would feel bad if he knew that i wasn't listening. my empathy runs deep, for better or worse.
I don’t think true “contagious feelings” empathy is actually tied to anything in particular. But the example with the teacher does make me think you use interpersonal connection to exist and do well in the world. That example could be Actor Bird - it is important to be a good student, this is what Good Students look like. It could be Snake... I will do X thing in order to make this person happy. It could be Courtier Badger... although I’m thinking that Courtier Badger would have needed to find some way to *actually* be interested in what he was talking about.
i don't think that i'm a snake... i'm what you might call a 'big tent' person-- there's room -- there's room for everybody, come as you are. that leaves me with lion or badger. i think that if i am a lion, my morality is badger-flavored.
So far, I’m inclined to agree.
i don't think that i know what's best for everyone or that there's just one way of being.
my god, I *hope* not.
what works for me isn't going to work for someone else, and that's okay. i'm leaning badger, but i would love to hear your thoughts!
Could honestly go either way. And I’m bad at telling Badgers and Paragon Lion apart. This is could be a Badger using Lion language, or a Lion with Badgery morals.
secondaries now--sorry this is so long--
apologies are often the sign of a burnt secondary, not sure if the case here.
i think that i'm either a bird or a badger secondary. i admire lions, but i'm not loud or charge-y. i'm determined, for sure, but in a quieter way. if i want something to happen, gosh darn it, it's going to happen.
Do you identify at all with the battering-ram Lion? Because this sounds like a battering-ram Lion.
i graduated high school early, made the bball team, got into my college of choice, etc., by putting my nose to the grindstone and working hard. sounds pretty badger, right?
Definitely could be, especially when paired with the community-building stuff with the teacher. You talk about being too long, but I just want more details. What does work look like for you? Also, why did you decide to graduate early? How did you pick your college? That kind of stuff could really help nail down your primary.
i do some bird tool-collecting, but i think that's more for fun than anything. i love history, english, and foreign languages. i'm a well of random historical facts that i find interesting and other people likely find boring. sometimes i get excited about how many cool things there are in the world that i can explore and learn about. maybe this is a bird model, one that i have for fun?
Could be.
typing all of this out leads me to think that i'm a double badger with a bird secondary model for fun. what do you think? i appreciate your time and your thoughts!! thank you so much! :)
If that’s the definition that’s working for you, I’m all for it. I might suggest reading some more about Lion, both primary and secondary, because there seems to be a *slight* amount of flattening and simplification going on when you talk about it, but apart from that... fantastic work.
