#deceit discourse

[de-vile]

Canon Deceit, who is a theater dork, looks just dandy in a cute lil bowtie, kind've an asshole, king of sarcasm: All women are queens.

Fanon, abusive evil Deceit coming out of the shadows wearing the blood of his enemies wielding Roman' sword that he pried from his cold dead hands: if she breathes...she's a

THOT!!!!

Both of them, fighting in a Denny's parking lot: AAAAGGHHH!!!

[softestvirgil]

You do not have to make excuses for Deceit's bad behaviour to be allowed to like him. You do not need to try and turn him into something he isn't to like him. It's okay to enjoy a villain, but you should acknowledge that they are a villain and not defend them for every bad thing they do just so you can make yourself feel better for liking them. He does bad things and he has been right about a few things he has said, but his ultimate purpose is to convince Thomas to lie, and he wants to go to the extreme of making Thomas into someone who can lie without guilt or remorse, and who only ever acts in their own self interest. It's extreme. There needs to be balance. You need to care about others and yourself equally. Not only that but time and time again he has been very manipulative and as someone who has been manipulated, and also been a manipulator on a few occasions, manipulation is always wrong. Always. Without exception. I also personally think that lying is sometimes something we feel the need to do, as flawed beings, but that ultimately lying is not okay.

With that being said, I find Deceit to be such a compelling, interesting character and the way he works is so fascinating to me, and as someone who enjoys villains I think he is super cool. It's okay to enjoy villains but don't defend their bad behavior.

[alteridolriley]

I haven't posted any thoughts on the new episode because I was afraid.

If any of you have seen my react video (link is here: https://youtu.be/t38KiRcRfGc), once Patton tells Thomas, "You don't mean any of this. I'm your morality. I wouldn't be here if you did." I said quite instantaneously, "That doesn't sound like something Patton would say."

It sat with me wrong and it still does today. But I can't just over look this because I enjoy Patton as a character. There's a reason that hit me the wrong way and analyzing why and maybe realizing Patton took the wrong course of action doesn't mean I like him any less.

Patton has always had the most open, purist of hearts to me. He was emotional, sentimental, self sacrificing, and accepting of all. He proved that with Virgil. Even if he disagreed how Virgil did things, he would still go out of his way to say that Virgil was just doing things the way he knew. He accepted Virgil had a different way of seeing things and just moved on from it.

But when it comes to Deceit, he can't do that. And a lot of people will shout "That's because Deceit is a liar! That's because Deceit manipulates people!"

Sure, that's one perspective. But the other is also that Patton knows that Deceit is self preservation. He said it himself in Deceit's premiere episode "Can Lying Be Good?":

Self-preservation is defined as: the protection of oneself from harm or death, especially regarded as a basic instinct in human beings and animals.

That could mean that Deceit is both truths and lies. He helps based on how the situation affects Thomas' self preservation and self worth overall. He helps Thomas get what he truly wants, even if he doesn't know it.

A lot of people, including myself, said at the end of the video that we "agreed with Deceit" and that "Thomas should go to the callback" but those are two different things.

Deceit didn't care either way if Thomas went to the callback or to the wedding. He wanted Thomas to admit he wanted to go to the callback.

In my mind that leads me to believe that Deceit would've supported Thomas if he actually had wanted to go to the wedding and probably would've never said anything. But because Thomas was lying to himself he showed up to reveal that. If Deceit actually is self preservation, that means Deceit is looking out for Thomas's self worth here. Choosing his own needs (because a callback is an audition for a job in the grand scheme of things and a job is something Thomas needs to live and support himself) over his friends wants (because getting married is a want, not something needed) will help with his self-worth, especially if he wins the callback.

Overall, I just wanted to point this out. If you wanted Thomas to go to the callback and not the wedding, that means you were looking out for Thomas's self-worth and wanting him to succeed. If you wanted Thomas to go to the wedding, you were looking out for Thomas's connection to his friends. Neither one is wrong in this scenario.

Keep your mind open, and remember, just because a character you love or see a lot of yourself in has a moment that makes you feel uncomfortable doesn't make them toxic or wrong. But seeing a character's errors and mistakes and knowing those things are a chance for the character to grow is important. Don't just gloss over errors in your favorite characters. Take the time to adjust the lens and look through a different perspective. You might learn a lot that way.

[maxinajar]

People are allowed to dislike any side they want and you don’t get to tell them otherwise. Stop whining about how much you cant understand and just block the freaking tag. Its not hard. If someone hasn’t tagged it, ask them politely or block/unfollow them. You don’t have to attack every opinion that doesn’t line up with yours. Also, if you aren’t doing the things that this post is addressing, then you don’t need to reply or change anything. You are fine! Keep up doing what any reasonable person would do.

Sorry if this comes across passive aggressive, I’m just super frustrated that nobody seems to know how to act about this. If you didn't see Patton’s actions as manipulative, good for you! Other people did. Respect that and move on.

Also, can we please start tagging any negative thing said about a side as “sides name” discourse. Including Deceit btw. Just like there are people super attached to Patton there are people super attached to Deceit. Just, be respectful, tag things, and don't go onto posts that aren't specifically or obviously debate post just to argue with whoever posted it. Thank you.

[broken-mirror-sanders-sides]

On Deceit

In my opinion, SaSi is a show about the moral gray zone, and how different characters can be scattered across it, (which is why the "Dark" and "Light" split by Roman is becoming increasingly rediculous). And trying to define weather a character is objectively good or bad is a minefield because.... Everyone's definition of "good" and "bad" is different. Respect other people and their thoughts and opinions, and correctly tag. We can and should coexist.

[ironwoman359]

Edit: imma just keep reblogging this everytime I feel like it’s needed. Please consider reading and then reblogging.

You don’t have to be particularly interested in my sides (called traits cuz alliteration) to get something out of this, I think. Thanks 💜

(Taylor’s Traits)

Ellie (Sentiment): Guys, I think we should do something. 

Claire (Preservation): Uhh.....bad idea, Ellie. 

Dael (Logic): Wait, what are you talking about.

Ellie: Look at everyone! They’re upset! They’re fighting, some of them! We should do something! 

Claire: Yeah, great idea, weigh in on an issue that we haven’t seen actually unfold in and of itself, without all the facts or a clear idea of when this started.

Ellie: But Claire–

Claire: Not to mention, why should people listen to us? There are thousands of people in this fandom, why would they listen to what we have to say? 

Dael: Well, statistically speaking, they have in the past. 

Ellie: Yeah, we have a voice here! We should use it to do good somehow! 

Claire: Ok, maybe, but we STILL don’t know exactly how this all started happening, we’ve been offline most of the day and we came back on to this!

Dael: What exactly is happening?

Ellie: Character discourse in the fanders. 

Dael: Oh sh*t. 

Claire: Yeah, that’s what I said. 

Dael: Well, if we don’t have all the facts, wouldn’t it be prudent to go back through the tag and try to discover how this began?

Claire: That’s a great idea, if you want to make Ellie cry. They’re saying bad stuff about Patton. 

Dael: ....they’re what? 

Claire: Some people don’t like how he was acting in the newest video. Several are just calmly discussing and theorizing, of course, but you know how the internet can get. 

Dael: Oh my– this is why cancel culture is such a problem, I swear–

Ellie: So yeah, we have to do something! 

Claire: I still think it’s better to stay OUT of it! 

Dael: I mean...there’s so many arguments that can and should be made....I don’t even know where to begin. 

Leah (Insecurity): Plus if you make them, either A: nobody will read them, or B: people will hate that you made them and be mad that you tried to tell them how to feel. 

Ellie: Hi, Leah.

Dael: When did I say I was going to tell them how to feel? One of the arguments I was going to make was that everyone’s feelings about something like this are going to be different, based on their own biases and experiences, and that it’s important to acknowledge those feelings when approaching another side in debate. People are not inherently “right” or “wrong” for how they interpret Patton’s actions in a video. 

Leah: Yeah, but people might get upset that we’re trying to weigh in. You know what some people think of “bigger blogs,” what if they think we’re trying to overstep our boundaries?

Claire: This is why we should just do nothing, hide away until it all blows over...or never come out of hiding at all, that’s good too...

Ellie: Okay, Leah, come over here by me, you can’t get that close to Claire, you know what happens. 

Leah: whatever

Dael: I...look. There’s so much to unpack here, I don’t even know where to start...

Ariyana (Creativity): Uhhhh, how about with the fact that, while the accusations some have laid at Patton’s feet have some merit, literally ALL of Thomas’s sides have had times where their actions were less than perfect, and that while they all wish what is best for Thomas, they are each often misguided or mistaken in what the best is, and NONE of them can be said to be 100% innocent? 

Dael: Ari! When did you...you know what, you have a point. From Roman’s poor past treatment of Virgil and bravado to Virgil’s own misguided attempts at being listened to with fear tactics, to Logan’s refusal to compromise or listen to other ideas and Patton’s repression of negative emotions, none of the sides can claim to be as innocent as we would often like them to believe. 

Ellie: Well...that’s part of the problem too though. Remember the last few videos? A lot of people weren’t happy with Logan...and a lot of shade was thrown his way. 

Dael: Ah, I remember hearing that something similar happened to Roman between the first and second part of Virgil’s redemption arc. Not to mention Deceit’s first appearance. So what’s the problem then? Besides, of course, that this is happening at all. 

Claire: Some people have asked for #patton negativity to be tagged, and some people (I think?) are upset that because it’s Patton, people are protesting the discourse and asking for tags when it was Logan under fire, nothing like that happened?

Dael: ....is there any validity to that claim?

Claire: I dunno man, I try to steer us away from discourse usually. I don’t know what it was like last time! And I don’t even know that much of what it’s like now! But people are getting hate anons again and it just...

Ellie: It’s a bad time. 

Dael: Oh. Well...isn’t this better then?

Claire: What do you mean?

Dael: If we as a fandom made mistakes with how we handled discourse in the past, then asking for #patton negativity, or indeed, any #side negativity, to be tagged is less about favoring Patton over other sides or saying that you’re allowed to post negative opinions about the other sides and not Patton, and MORE about us growing as a fandom. We’re doing better now than we were in the past. There’s a difference between hypocrisy and growth. 

Ellie: Oh....well, what about what they’re actually saying about Patton?

Dael: I feel as though we as a fandom have already covered this subject, with the discourse surrounding Deceit? You can have whatever opinions you like about the character. You can interpret his actions in the new video as justified, as manipulative, as morally correct or incorrect. Any of those interpretations are fine, valid, and most are possible within canon. But when discussing/portraying those interpretations, it is best to tag appropriately so that people looking for that content can find it and people looking to avoid that content can do so. We also had the conversation about how you do not get to dictate what other people find upsetting. Indeed, the reason we haven’t looked into more details on this is because intentionally looking for negative comments about Patton would upset you, is that correct, Ellie?

Ellie: Yes, it is. I don’t like the idea of Patton being bad. 

Ariyana: Well, this is the thing. Patton being wrong or making a mistake is not the same as him being bad. Just like Deceit having some good points is not the same as him being good. Each character, each person, has the capability for good and bad. And if you ask me, this dichotomy is both what Deceit was trying to get Character!Thomas to understand and what Actual!Thomas is planning on discussing next in the series, that morality is rarely so black and white. THIS is why, as you said, Dael, cancel culture is such a problem. We must allow people to grow, and we must allow them to make mistakes, and then be forgiven. 

Dael: Exactly, thank you Ariyana. I couldn’t put it better myself. 

Ariyana: Well good, then that means we can wrap this up and hit the hay. I’m tired! Let’s go, Leah. No, don’t you mutter under your breath, it’s going to be fine. Posting this is a good idea, trust me. 

Ellie: Thanks, Dael. 

Dael: Glad to be of assistance. Are you two going to be alright now?

Claire: I think so, yeah. Talking about it always helps. I just hope the fanders are gonna be okay...

Dael: Well, if you recall other times the, ah, FamILY has encountered hardship in the past, they have always overcome it together. And I have seen no evidence to suggest that we should stop believing in them now. 

Claire: Yeah...you’re right, Dael. Thanks. G’night!

Dael: Goodnight Claire, goodnight Ellie. 

Ellie: Night guys! Love you! 

And I love you too, all you fanders out there. Hang tight. We’ll get through this the way we always do. As a famILY. <3

[maxtalks]

Ugh I hate liking the hated character in a fandom. I do this everytime I join a new fandom, I end up enjoying a character everyone else seems to hate.. Its very exhausting having to scroll through a bunch of shif about how horrible they are and how horrible anyone who likes their character is. Like... Please, just let people enjoy characters in piece. No one is condoning any bad actions done by a fictional fucking character. I just enjoy how they're written, it's fun.... Also, please stop confusing headcanons with canon. It's really exhausting... Just because you interpret a certain character as abusive or something doesn't mean that that's what is canon. It's ok to have different interpretations, just please stop acting as if yours is the only one.

Sorry for the rant... I'm, just a bit fed up....

[notafeeling]