What the "Field of Pink and Gold" may each represent;
I wanted to figure out what the "Field of Pink and Gold" was actually referencing in this chapter if not the fat cat itself directly. The one and most abundant answer seems to be Mad Mew Mew (Pink) and Flowery (Gold) both being what the "Field of Pink and Yellow" was about.
And if the two of them were placed as a dichotomy that means that there should be a connection. And I think this here is it in the form of an old FRIEND theory that has gained a whole lot more sense in my eyes since then.
That being that FRIEND's Pink and Gold eyes represent two different concepts at the same time: VALUE and LOVE. Value in the sense of statistics and therefore the intricate knowledge of the world of Deltarune and Love in one's ability to form and understand the nature and power of bonds of love, family and friendship. And in this context Mew Mew and Flowey would be basically a Yin and Yang dichotomy of these two values.
Flowery would be rather obvious in how he constantly breaks and twists the mechanics of the game to his will as seen with all his maxed out Values/Stats and possesses deep knowledge of its mysteries.. While Mew Mew wholly lacks them on every level, despite her nature as a secret boss (which only emphasizes its absence).
And Mad Mew Mew in turn is a boss fight all about Love, her battle's mechanic is literally showering her with love until we get to go on a date with her and the main gist of her story is about her learning to accept the love of others but also love herself... Meanwhile Flowery's main struggle is that he fundamentally does not understand Love beyond a surface level.
He and the other flowers truly and genuinely love Asgore and want to repay him in his kindness... But do not understand his struggles, they do not understand why he cares about his work with his "conspiracy" and his family, if both make him experience "bad" emotions. Why doesn't Asgore just do "fun" things to feel "good" emotions? They are trying to make Asgore by giving him "happy" things and experiences without understanding what he truly wants... Because this is in the end, are just the dreams of a Flower.
And flowers only understand love through exclusively giving someone a gift.
Hello. For the past few months I have been working on a document deconstructing the dynamic between UNDERTALE's protagonist and the various factors surrounding them.
After replaying the game I've had a revelation of sorts regarding this topic that I'd like to share with you.
For theorists in this community, I only hope that this proves useful going into DELTARUNE.
Something i never see people bring up about Queen is how aware she is about the nature of darkners and the dark worlds. Like she's probably the character that draws the most active attention to how darkners are narrative constructs.
Like, because she's extremely funny people write her off as just Internet Brain Rot but i don't think there's any other character that directly shows as much awareness as her. Not only does she directly state her object in her introductory scene, she directly addresses the malleable nature of darkner backstories and decides that lancer is her son.
i know it's established fanon that the shadow crystals drive darkners mad by showing the nature of the dark worlds but 1. Queen Knows And She's Literally Fine, and 2. Spamton Was Already Like That, he Found It In The Neo Body.
She's not even the only darkner to show awareness that they're Characters acting out Story Roles, but she brings it up like every other sentence to the point where it's especially notable
we have a couple of guides to Deltarune's structure.
deltarune.com/chapter5
the Forgotten Man's schedule
the shadow crystals
Gerson's summary of Lord of the Hammer
information shared by Toby
all of these end at Chapter 5. firstly, i want to explain how. then, i want to explore what we do have to understand/predict Chapter 6 and 7.
the chapter pages
on each site from deltarune.com/chapter1 to chapter3 we can access a message. there aren't pages for deltarune.com/chapter6 and deltarune.com/chapter7.
/chapter1 - Not applicable.
/chapter2 - Applicable.
/chapter3 - Not applicable. But...
/chapter4 - [very different, i won't write about it here]
/chapter5 - ["back" - the Weird Route map]
this matches up with whether the Weird Route is possible with each chapter, /chapter3 referring to the Sword Route. deltarune.com/chapter4 breaks the pattern, and links to something very different. /chapter5 also breaks the pattern, and instead elaborates on the Weird Route.
/chapter5
on /chapter5, there are five numbers. 2, 3 and 5 link to audio files. 1 doesn't link to anything, and 4 links to deltarune.com/chapter4.
1 - very small, black, N/A
2 - large, white, d.mp3
3 - large, almost black, ma.mp3,
4 - small, white, N/A
5 - medium, white, h.mp3
deltarune.com/chapter5 also has the page title "back", which isn't translated on the Japanese version.
1 is small and black because it has no weird route. 2 has a lot of weird route content. 3 has a lot of sword route content. 4 has a small amount of weird route content... and we can presume 5 is going to have like, a medium smount.
but that leaves the status of the weird route in chapter 6 and 7 completely open.
the Forgotten Man's schedule
our next guide is the Forgotten Man's schedule; the day-of-the-week lets us work out the chapter. Chapter 3 happens during Friday night, presumably why it isn't mentioned.
[Chapter 1] ON THURSDAY, I GO TO SELL THE DONUTS.
[Chapter 2] ON FRIDAY, I TOSS THE LEFTOVERS IN THE DUMPSTER.
[Chapter 4] ON SATURDAY, I LET IT COOL ON THE WINDOWSILL.
[Chapter 5] ON SUNDAY, I HARVEST THE WHEAT.
Temmie counts how many eggs you've collected. in Chapter 4, you can go to the classroom to find them all on a desk, with another "leader egg" at the top. this desk could fit 5 eggs maximum, assuming that all the Man eggs stay at the bottom.
anyway, both the schedule and Temmie don't support eggs for Chapter 6 and 7.
the Shadow Crystals
in Chapter 4, before the dark world, Seam tells us the following:
You got the Crystal, that's all that matters!
Now you've got three. Only two more, and we should have enough...
... to make something I think you'll quite enjoy. Now good luck... and I'll be taking that Shadow Crystal.
we get one more shadow crystal from Gerson, leaving the last one Seam needs to be collected in Chapter 5.
Gerson's summaries
during his battle, Gerson provides summaries of each chapter to Lord of the Hammer, lining up with Deltarune's chapters.
Chapter 1 / The March of the Dark King. The heroes defeat the king and stop the dragon.
in Chapter 1, we defeat the Card King and stop Susie from attacking everything.
Chapter 2 / The City of the Shining. The heroes do battle in chariots to save the Queen.
in Chapter 2, we fight Berdly in bumper cars.
Chapter 3, The Isles of Northernlight. The heroes travel among the islands and catch a glimpse of a lost land.
in Chapter 3, we go to the Island Board, and see multiple "lost lands"; Atlantis, the Purple Cliffs.
Chapter 4, The Trials of the Holy Hammer. A great smith gives the heroes a terrible weapon.
in Chapter 4, we meet Gerson, a "great smith". but he doesn't have to give us a weapon - maybe it's hope?
Chapter 5, The Field of Pink and Gold. The vast garden is charred in an inferno of jealousy.
Gerson tells us, "there was only one more chapter... After that, it all stopped."- so a chapter 6 existed, but he doesn't describe it to us, while chapter 7 was never written.
like in the other examples, Chapter's 1 to 5 are mentioned, but 6 and 7 aren't.
conclusions
I do think there's going to be a Chapter 6 and 7. the most reliable, important guide we have to the structure is the chapter select screen. Chapter 6 and Chapter 7 are always included there.
and finally, Toby's just never mentioned Chapter 6 or 7 before- he refers vaguely to like, other chapters, and implies there'll be more after 5.
the release schedule for the following chapters will be a lot smoother!! It's still going to take a good while to get there, but once we do, you'll never have to wait so long for a Chapter ever again!
but in terms of more direct information, we really just don't have any.
code exists, showing the game will continue. I don't think it's ending in Chapter 5, or that just-the-weird-route will end in Chapter 5. to me it feels like a really major structural shift is being set up for 6 and 7.
Susie is, and was always meant to be, The Girl from Deltarune's prophecy
I've seen a lot of people who believe that "The Girl" was meant to be somebody else- particularly, Noelle. To be blunt, this is false, and I'm tired of seeing this interpretation pop up everywhere. I can understand how one could come to this conclusion initially- hell, I used to believe this theory- but when you look at all the evidence, it just doesn't line up whatsoever. So let's get into why.
First off, let's tackle the big one.
THE SECOND HERO.
THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.
I'm gonna tackle this one argument at a time, so...
"The silohuette looks nothing like Susie!"
I mean... eh? I can see the point being made here, but... would you really say this looks more like Noelle?? The silohuette is vague in general, and hardly resembles either of them, to be honest - but if I had to pick one of them, the hair at the back reminds me more of Susie - it's much spikier, more reminiscent of Susie's hair than Noelle's.
Apparently some people think that the hair is angel wings? I can... kinda see it, but, like... let's take a look at another prophecy panel for a moment.
The hero on the left here looks very much like Susie. The silohuette evokes specifically her hairstyle- Noelle's hair just doesn't look like that whatsoever, there's clearly no wings in sight, and the silohuette also lacks antlers. And they can't be wearing a hood, like the White Mage does in MAN'T'LE - that's clearly hair.
Plus, Kris's silohuette is accurate to their appearance, and Ralsei's is accurate to how the prophecy typically depicts him, always with his cloak, so I don't see any reason for The Girl's silohuette to just... randomly be wrong here, if it's meant to be Noelle.
"The Girl is wielding a sword! Susie can't wield swords, but Noelle can!"
Alright then, let's see what swords Noelle can equip!
Jingle Blade - Light World: Holiday Pencil
Black Shard - Light World: Black Shard
So, we have... literally her pencil, which isn't exactly strong evidence, and... the Black Shard. Now, let's look at the description for the Black Shard real quick...
"dagger-like", huh? That doesn't sound much like a sword to me... plus, it's also... not that big. Or sword-shaped. It's... kinda just shaped like a piece of glass. Now, where did we get the Black Shard again?
The Roaring Knight, who- regardless of which of the two candidates you're rooting for- is 100% a Holiday. With this in mind, along with the Black Shard's description, I think you can understand why I don't think The Girl wielding a sword is very strong evidence towards The Girl being Noelle.
But the silohuette still wields a sword, not an axe, which is quite interesting... but I think people are looking at it from the wrong angle here. Let's think about this a different way; Here, take some dialogue from Gerson's fight.
This comment about the "white pen, known as hope" intrigues me, because... well, as Susie says herself, Kris has the pen, and... hm. What do Kris's weapons become in the Light World, again? Let's go through one by one.
Pencil -> Wood Blade
Halloween Pencil -> Spooky Sword
Lucky Pencil -> Trefoil (UNUSED)
Eraser -> Bounce Blade
Mechanical Pencil -> Mecha Saber
Cactus Needle -> Saber 10
Quill Pen -> Winglade
Holiday Pencil -> Jingle Blade
Black Shard -> Black Shard
Even if you don't count the Trefoil, there's clearly a pattern here - most of Kris's weapons, which are all swords, are writing equipment - with the majority just being pens and pencils outright! Now, this is purely speculative...
But it would be really fucking cool and thematically appropriate if Susie got her hands on some sort of pen at some point, and then in the Dark World, it turns into a sword only she can equip, right??? Like- that'd be really fucking cool!! And also extremely appropriate & relevant to the game's themes!!!
But, admittedly, that is just speculation. You don't need to take my word for it - but I do think that using the fact that The Girl wields a sword as evidence that it's meant to be depicting Noelle is... a very shaky argument.
"The Girl is mentioned as both the second, and then as the last! That means there's two The Girls!"
Putting aside how needlessly obtuse the idea of there being two "The Girls" is- two people referred to by the exact same identifier... I don't have a not-incredibly-blunt way to put this-
It's a POEM.
Like- let's take a look at these prophecies, in the order they appear in-game.
THE THIRD HERO, THE PRINCE, ALONE IN DEEPEST DARK.
THE FIRST HERO, THE CAGE, WITH HUMAN SOUL AND PARTS!
AND LAST, WAS THE GIRL. AT LAST, WAS THE GIRL.
THE SECOND HERO, THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.
It's a poem! And, considering the third panel, it looks like this poem follows the order they joined the party.
Ralsei first, since he uh. IDFK, had the prophecy beamed into his brain at birth or smth???
Then Kris, as we/them immediately join up with Ralsei when we first meet him.
And then Susie, who sort of joins our party twice - and the first time hardly even counts, considering that she refuses to listen to us and then joins the bad guys - she's by far the last to join the party, only truly working with us after her fight with Lancer in the prison.
They're "out of order" in the sense that it doesn't go 1-2-3, yes, but it's deliberate - maybe that's in part because of Susie's Dark World being topsy-turvy, but I don't think that means there's suddenly two "The Girls".
...and with that said, I feel the need to mention that the image for-
AND LAST, WAS THE GIRL. AT LAST, WAS THE GIRL.
-is literally just Rude Buster. Like- that's just Rude Buster. Sure, you could argue that it's also the act symbol, but the act symbol is never really referenced outside of the UI & characters talking about the UI, as far as I remember. Rude Buster, on the other hand...
...is literally used for the pattern on Susie's carpet. And you can't argue that this one is the act symbol, because... it's Susie's room. It's clearly meant to be Rude Buster...
Now- what does Noelle have to do with that symbol, if The Girl is meant to be her? Regardless of whether it's meant to be Rude Buster or the act icon, how does that relate to Noelle?? She has nothing to do with either of those things- hell, Susie even has a stronger relation to ACTing than Noelle does, what with her being the one to prompt S-Action & R-Action to exist. Now, to move onto my next point.
LOVE FINDS ITS WAY TO THE GIRL.
This prophecy! So- people think this might be referring to the Weird Route, and how "LOVE" - that is, Level Of ViolencE - will "find its way" to Noelle... but, like.
The weird route is explictly anti-prophecy.
Ralsei freaks out a bit when the ferris wheel scene doesn't happen, he literally tells you he thinks taking Noelle to the festival is "a bad decision" specifically on the weird route, and...
I think this dialogue speaks for itself. Though, some context: This dialogue is spoken by Ralsei if you tell him it's okay to not smile... specifically on the weird route. It's, like- the most blatant foreshadowing ever.
...also I don't know why everyone tries to make this panel about LOVE when that's not been a plot-point so far in Deltarune and the regular meaning of this panel would apply to Noelle on all routes anyway.
(Even weird route... in a much more unfortunate manner.)
THE GIRL, WITH HOPE CROSSED ON HER HEART.
Now, I want to talk about this for a moment- the way the prophecy describes The Girl here: with hope crossed on her heart. Hope. Real quick, I'm gonna go through a bunch of mentions of "hope" in the game to prove a point - not every mention, but any that might be relevant.
I'll circle back to this one later, because I just realised something about this- just keep it in mind.
wow, it took way longer than i expected to find a thematically relevant example of "hope"...
So! This scene- it's a really big moment. We get a huge loredrop on Susie's backstory, and rather pointedly- she talks about hope, and it's the first time we get a really relevant mention of "hope" as a theme- and it's Susie who drops it. She talks about how Toriel gave her hope- and how that hope has been growing as she makes friends- and she says all this to Tenna, who's in a similar spot to the one she was in before...
...and it inspires hope in him, too. Her speech- her empathy & sympathy, and her offer to find him a new home- it gives him hope. Hope that he won't be thrown away- that he can find a new home, that he can be used and be happy again... and it's all thanks to Susie.
I've not really got much to say for this one, TBH- I think it just speaks for itself. IDK, words hard sometimes.
I brought this one up earlier, but I think it's relevant here, too- Gerson specifically believes Susie has the "white pen of hope"- the power to change fate, to change the ending and write her own- and he calls it hope. I think that's important.
I'm bringing up this Seam dialogue because, for most people, Susie- and her Rude Buster- is the only reason you could even touch the Roaring Knight. It's thanks to her that you could get that crystal - without her, you'd be shit outta luck.
(That is, unless you're extraordinarily cracked at the game, but I'm not considering that edge case...)
So, you could say, indirectly, Susie's inspired hope in Seam, too.
I saved this one for last on purpose, because I think it's the most poignant.
Ralsei directly talks about how Susie's hope is "infectious"- her bright, shining hope, it's spreading, it's giving Ralsei hope, too. Hope that the ending can be changed- that the final tragedy can be averted, despite everything- despite the fact that the prophecy has yet to change. I've got something to say regarding that, actually- but I wanna finish this train of thought first.
So, Susie has a very clear connection to hope- even in Chapter 3, before the prophecy is in the picture, she establishes herself as a person full of hope- a person that inspires hope in others. Now, what connection does Noelle have with hope? What are her thematic ties to the idea and feeling of hope?
...
She, uh. She doesn't really... have any. Like- she mentions hope... once??
Like- Alphys and Hathy have more text connecting them to hope (or, the word hope) than this. Noelle really just- doesn't have any narrative association with hope like Susie does, which I think is a big point against Noelle being The Girl, considering that "with hope crossed on her heart" is the way the prophecy defines The Girl.
Now- to circle back to that text from the legend real quick, I had a thought about that! So- it says it's a legend of hope and dreams. Light and dark. Hope and light on the left, dark and dreams on the right. This is a complete tangent and probably doesn't mean much, but- dark worlds are already associated with dreams, and what with Susie's connection with hope, and how she's a lightner... I dunno. I just think it's neat that it lines up like that, Gyaa Ha ha!
THE PROPHECY HAS NOT CHANGED YET
Alright so I really need to address this point- the prophecy has not changed. Ralsei makes a point of this multiple times during Chapter 4, and even the shadow crystals support this idea.
Now, assuming Noelle was meant to be The Girl, and that Susie took her spot... I don't think Ralsei's mindset here makes much sense. After all, that would mean that the prophecy was already changed- and in quite a significant way, too. Like- one of the three heroes just being replaced?! That's huge! Ralsei would totally freak out about that the moment he saw us in Castle Town for the first time if it was true!
Some people try to argue that Ralsei just- wouldn't know that Susie isn't meant to be The Girl, but I don't think that's right. Ralsei knows the prophecy in full- every last detail- and he knows Susie by name when he first sees her.
I think that's quite relevant- he recognises her appearance, calls her by name before she introduces herself, and is confident that she's one of the three heroes. Not once is he like "uh- okay then i guess i'll go with this-" or anything like that- and he has not once expressed that this is wrong.
Also- frankly, the idea that the prophecy has already changed is a weak idea that wouldn't serve the story well. On first glance, yeah- cool, Susie broke it by being Susie from the get-go, cool, go Susie! But when you look at it more deeply, it's... kinda just a weak plot point?
This overbearing force,
This prophecy which forces the hand of fate,
This antagonistic force that's being built up to be broken at the end of the game...
yeah susie already broke/bent it in hour 1 lmao, its actually entirely worthless
Like. It just... doesn't really serve the story very well. At all. If Susie wasn't meant to be The Girl. Susie hypes up the prophecy because she's in it- it seems cool! She's finally- part of something, and it's something massive- she's a HERO! And then, as she learns more, she loses faith in the prophecy, even despite that- she calls it stupid. She forsakes it, and swears to defy it.
I think that arc would kinda be ruined a bit if it turned out that she wasn't meant to be part of the prophecy in the first place.
Additionally- I'd like to provide a quote from @ liz_x51 on Discord about this, she put it really well:
The idea of "we need to change the prophecy but it has never been done. We don't even know if it's possible" is kind of undermined if it either has a lot of ways to interpret it already (that's already a form of 'change') or if it's already changed from the beginning of the game by Susie being a hero
NOELLE & SUSIE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE
While trying to think of any more Girlelle points to debunk, I realised another reason why The Girl can't have been intended to be anyone other than Susie- and especially why it can't have been Noelle:
Are you really trying to tell me that swapping Noelle out for Susie wouldn't immediately change fate?
Those two are nothing alike- there is no way in hell they'd make the same choices, that they'd follow the prophecy all the same- especially with how specific the prophecy is!
Like- yes, these are all jokes- but they're also examples of how specific the prophecy is, and I don't believe these are meant to be random, throw-away exceptions- I think they are specifically meant to show us how specific the prophecy is- how it captures every event.
And, with that in mind... are you really telling me Chapter 1 would play out exactly the same if you swapped Susie for Noelle? Really?? The chapter would diverge in the first 10 minutes of the dark world! Like- I think this is something nobody really thinks about when talking about this theory- there is no way the plot would happen the exact same with Noelle in place of Susie. That just wouldn't happen.
"Ralsei says Susie is supposed to equip ribbons, so he isn't really very reliable."
...and Susie can equip ribbons. She just doesn't, because she doesn't want to. I think "supposed to" is just a case of weird phrasing from Ralsei.
While I'm on this topic- there's some dialogue I think is relevant.
Susie asks about Noelle, and Ralsei's first thought- which takes him a moment, mind you, considering the "Umm..." - is what items she can equip. I think that's quite a striking indicator that she's not very relevant to the prophecy - at least, not in a way Ralsei could identify her with. (There's still hope for y'all, Angel Noelle truthers.)
If Noelle was meant to be The Girl, this would be the perfect moment for Ralsei to mention that, no? This is right after he said he'd be more honest with the party- that he'd stop hiding so many things from them- and he is being explicitly asked about Noelle. This would be THE perfect moment for that loredrop!
But it doesn't happen, and I think that says enough.
This is where I'd put my closing thoughts... if I, uh. Had any. But, uh, I got nothin'. There's one The Girl, and her name is Susie [Lastname], not Noelle Holiday or any other name. If I forgot to debunk any points about Girlelle, I'll edit the post with those, I guess. But. Yeah. That's it. That's the post. go home
