#httyd2 talk

[avannak]

Hi! So, you remember Stoick's funeral in HTTYD2 just after they've all fired their burning arrows then the camera gives shots of the group's reactions (Fishlegs crying, Snotlout trying to hide tears, etc.) - I'm interested to know how you interpret Astrid's reaction, that sort of piteous smile she gives Hiccup? How do you interpret that? Thanks!

Hiccup says “I’m sorry, dad” and then we flash to Astrid, who had previously been zoned out on where the arrow’s hit... perhaps noting Hiccup’s silhouette in the flames moving in the foreground...

...Then, as though his words have just reached her, she reacts with a close-lipped, almost exasperated-but-knowing smile.  Like it was those words, from Hiccup, that drew her from reflection.

And that’s the best way I tend to interpret her little reaction. That she hears this depreciating comment that is just… so Hiccup. That’s he’s apologizing, again, because she knows, probably better than anyone (save, perhaps, for Gobber) that Hiccup’s always held this unrealistic understanding of how his own father viewed him. Regardless of all the progress the pair have made in communication, Hiccup still can’t shake the weight that he’s somehow coming up short in his father’s eyes, that he had somehow failed him, or disappointed him, in some manner or another. Astrid will, and has, told him otherwise -- been the mediator between the two men -- but both are stubborn and far too alike.

So here Hiccup stands, choosing “sorry” as his final words to his father. And despite everything that’s just gone down Astrid can only think how Hiccup it is.

Again, this is just how I’ve chosen to read it. I’ve mentioned it in other posts (here and here, specifically) but I found Astrid sort of annoyingly muted throughout the movie. Especially when it came to big emotional moments. We had her delightfully readable in the first movie – tearful and reactive; angry and ugly. Stoick’s funeral and Hiccup’s “almost death” were just… bleh. Here we have Valka, Hiccup’s estranged mother, shrieking and throwing herself at the ice surrounding her child and Astrid falls back into pretty-plot-device-on-stand-by.

[avannak]

Am I too late for the Httyd2 fandom? ;_; sorry. I've heard head cannons of Valka having a miscarriage... Well what about Stillborn? I know she was pretty young with having Hiccup, so it's kinda hard to determine if she did. But none less I do have a image like... If she had a Stillborn, she would name them, a few years later, she gets introduced to a person who is named after her deceased child and she just... Remembers and cries right here and there? And that person is confused XD weird right?

Its never too late to talk about HTTYD2!

To be honest, I don’t think Valka was too too young when she had Hiccup. I mean, by our standards, yes, 19 is young, but for their time period it seems legit. That said, I don’t really see a stillborn situation. Personally. A part of it-- or most of it-- has to do with that delightful age-gap between Valka and Stoick. Ten years. And given context clues and assumptions based on station, I already have some pretty cemented headcanons on how they came together despite a rocky start (#young!stalka). Hey, actually I have one post in particular that kinda covers a timeline for them, which you can read here :D

Miscarriages before finally getting Hiccup? Sure. Carrying a child to full-term before getting pregnant again? Less sure. That’s me, of course.

[avannak]

On the topic of Eret, who do you think invented the traps? Improved on them? Figured out which ones work best for each dragon? Eret is clearly pretty clever, but I can see him figuring out how to use the tools he has in amazing ways rather than inventing them himself. Not to mention the size the forge must be to build those traps!

I think most of the traps were a slow evolution of experience and tweaking. I do headcanon that Eret didn’t start out on Dragons (only when he went south, away from a familiar life, and excelled at larger game), so he was raised with the passed on knowledge of traps, as well as animal behavior. What works, what won’t, which and where and all that.

So I imagine his dragon-trapping days started out of necessity, using traps he was familiar with. And as he encountered more people who fought dragons on a regular basis, he came into contact with those traps and methods, and it was sort of a melding of both experiences.

As he moved around, hitting up villages for trades and dragon-removal, he would speak with the blacksmiths (“I need something like this... but bigger.” “Can you make this weighted at all? It might help.”) and over the years improved the weapons he used.

In a way, I think he did have a tiny hand in the invention process. Mostly applying what he’d learned on the field worked and what didn’t and asking those skilled in engineering to construct something out of it.

[tillythemenace]

I always thought hiccup was too young to became chief, which made me feel worried about him, but now I just remembered zuko. how old was he when he became fire lord? 18, more or less? and then there's azula who was 14 when got all nuts and etc, which is younger than hiccup when he foud thoothless and lost his leg (but still pretty young). so mostly I'm thinking "poor them, they are just kids, give them a break"

Yeah I feel you bro. Things happen in life that forces some people to grow up earlier than planned. I know it myself… I truly envy innocent people that haven’t yet suffered that much to turn their lifes upside down and learn in the bad way. 

In these cases I can tell you that growing up is hard. Very very hard. You have to face things you don’t want sooner or later. I personally would’ve prefered later but things do NOT always turn out the way we want them. Believe me, things happen, shit happens and yes that DOES NOT mean it’s the end. It means you have an opportunity to learn from those things and become a better person. That’s what happens when you mature, all the time. You begin to understand things and see the world in another way. It is NOT a bad thing =) Learning is ALWAYS rewarding, being early or late in you life. But remember that shit will happen to you and it will NOT end, it’s definitely not “yeah I did what I wanted! Now what?”, life continues and WILL continue until it’s time to leave. BUT, when life hits you hard, it is NOT the end, it’s just another lesson to learn, yes it’s hard and yes it’ll last, but it’s completely worth it if you keep pushing forward and LEARN from it, you’ll became wiser and better. It’ll be TOTALLY worth it, I garantee that in 100% and I trully believe it. I know it sounds cliché but life is a challenge and if you give up, there will be consequences. So yeah don’t give up even if shit happens. It’s worth the view when you climb the mountain =)

So yeah in Hiccup’s case, it’s sad that he had to take SUCH a huge responsability at his age but things in life happen and if it’s time to learn and grow up, it means that it’s meant for something, something big that’ll come to your life. It will be hard but Hiccup learned and grew up and learning is NEVER a bad thing =)

[avannak]

You mightve answered this already but how does Spitelout react to Stoicks death (if he himself is still alive that is)?

I don’t believe I have! And how dare you yes he’s still alive I won’t accept anything different

Spitelout and Stoick weren’t the closest brothers but they also didn’t have the hardcore, antagonistic relationship they had in the books. Their rivalry seems more played with their sons--as if Spitelout knew and accepted that Stoick was the ‘big, bad, chief’ and all that, but at least he had the better son (something Stoick quietly endured... until Hiccup started his own badass campaign and he could boast back).

They fought side-by-side and trusted each other, despite how often they butt heads.

So, yes, Stoick’s death is going to hit Spitelout hard. He’ll feel the ache of that loss, even if he doesn’t cry, even if he accepts the loss with a gruff nod. He’ll squeeze Hiccup’s shoulder, murmur his consolations, and do what he can to get the village back in shape.

Furthermore, I think Spitelout supports Hiccup and isn’t going to push for Snotlout to take over in this time of change. I think, over the past five years, most of the village got a lesson in leadership from Hiccup, and found love and comfort in this new peace he brought about. Spitelout has long since accepted that, while his son is strong and capable, he’s not meant to lead the Hooligans. Not yet, anyway.

[avannak]

There's something that really bothers me about the ending of httyd2 and that's how they attacked Drago's alpha. After babbling the whole film that "dragons are noble creatures" and "there are no bad dragons, only bad people who make them do bad things" (I know this isn't the exact quote but you get the idea) suddenly all the dragons shot at the alpha and BROKE ONE OF HIS HORNS. Shouldn't they have attacked Drago instead? Idk it made me feel pretty bad for the poor dragon. He's not guilty.

Are you just as bothered by the ending of the first movie then?  Because Hiccup obliterated that dragon. The Red Death’s story has been speculated about and I know the Bewilderbad was an innocent dragon at one point, but that was a long time ago.  Everyone, no matter what their excuse is, is somebody’s villain.  These individuals happened to become Hiccup’s.  Hiccup’s always been someone who will take action to protect his own when pushed. He was pushed in the first movie and he was pushed in the second movie. He acts in the moment, and sometimes action over forgiveness is the necessary option for the individual. Not the greater good, bullshit, but the individual.

On that note, I wouldn’t say Hiccup didn’t attack Drago.  Drago used the Bewilderbeast as a weapon and as a shield.  Hiccup did initially choose to separate them and then the Bewilderbeast attacked them without Drago.  Like I said, sometimes its action over forgiveness. Forgiveness and saving has its limits--especially when it becomes stupid and harmful for yourself and your loved ones.

Also, recognize that Valka said there are “no bad dragons”.  Not Hiccup. No one else. Valka. Some things are said for narration, but who says them matters.  Valka probably would have chosen to attack Drago over the Bewilderbeast--well, she did (then again, with human judgement she probably felt some level of grief and anger towards the Bewilderbad for killing the alpha of sanctuary).

[avannak]

That awkward moment when you realize that Fishlegs kicked more ass in HTTYD2 than Astrid. How the fuck did that happen? He was the first one to surrender.

That lack of Astrid--and what we did see of her and the Berk teens--bothers me as well.  I understand the second film is far more focused on Hiccup and his family (as opposed to Hiccup and his community), but I missed their unique interactions.

I still wouldn’t consider Fishlegs bellyflopping on that one guy more badass than talking people down--enemies and allies.  Sometimes it’s not about how many people you hurt, and I consider that, at least, a nice development for Astrid.

[avannak]

What if Stoick was an abusive husband? That would explain why Valka backed away, raised her staff, and assumed defensive posture when Stoick confronted her in the ice cave.

I’m going to kick off the new year with a good ol’ fashioned rant.

No. This has come up before.

Why did she back away?  I dunno… her own crippling guilt?  That she’d taken one devestating, emotional blow of reality after another since meeting her son and she hadn’t even finished processing all that before chapter two of “What have I done?” started.  She’s already struggling with accepting this fantasy of Berk behaving peacefully with dragons, riding them, and the horror that she couldn’t do it and that she left and her son was like her all along.  That she left her husband to raise their son alone when she could have been constructive and helpful in their household after half a viking-lifetime of believing it was impossible.  (Note: I’m not shaming her for her choices, but acknowledging that she does feel shame)

And then the husband—whom she once loved and lived with—doddles in.  Whelp.  Could you imagine the self-loathing she must have been feeling in that instant? Saw how she struggled to meet his eye?  It’s far more likely that Valka wrestled with self-hate and possible mental illness than experienced abuse at the hands of Stoick.  Can you imagine how many times she thought of reuniting with her husband?  How the longer she waited, the more her memories of Berk/Vumans skewed as she lived and saved dragons, her imaginings got more and more horrible?

"Shout—scream—something" —She’s goading him to do something she feels she deserves.  Right before she receives a stark reminder of who Stoick was. Is.  Okay, was.

That’s how I know there wasn’t abuse between them—Stoick’s character. The character that they created is not an abusive one. It’s one that’s had to use violence to survive and to keep his loved ones safe his entire life, but also shows incredible restraint.  It’s an incredibly protective character.  A deceivingly tempered one.  He’s designed to be this giant, hard-faced, warrior who, upon first meeting, seems set in his ways and people are rather unforgiving over that. Stoick’s filled with sorrow and heartache and hope.  He loves his village and his family dearly and he’s a rock.

Stoick was so easy and gentle with Valka—he understood that she needed time and space.  He understood his son too: he knew Hiccup would get ahead of himself in his excitement (a trait they share) and he knew Valka needed to be eased into a possible new living situation and he’s so freaking gentle with them both.  In fact, the only impulse he gave into was approaching her and kissing her—and considering the long list of inconsiderate impulses these characters have wracked up, Valka’s is far longer.  I don’t think he could have helped himself in that moment—I think his heart felt like it was going to explode and his stomach felt painfully crumpled and I think he struggled to breathe so much that he had to touch her to make sure she was real.  That was, literally, his biggest transgression we’ve seen him take against her—unable to help himself in approaching too quickly.