#httyd2 analysis

[tenebrius-excellium]

I love your post about backend motivation vs frontend motivation in the HTTYD series!!! I’ve always had a bit of a problem with the sequels (especially the third movie) that I could never put into words, but the difference in motivation is EXACTLY it. The Hidden World in particular had a specific ending in mind, wich isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but their solution was to force the ending into existence instead of letting the story naturally build up to the ending. And you can feel the story straining soooooo much when Toothless acts like a dog for twenty minutes or Grimmel does something simple/obvious that the narrative treats as an ingenious act of strategy. It’s just not genuine! The characters simply wouldn’t act like that, but the writers let plot dictate characters instead of the other way around, and it’s just. so disappointing. There has to have been a way to keep the natural tensions and eventual triumphs of dragon/human bonds without resorting to flattening everyone’s character and taking the story in a weird, half-baked direction.

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Oh my gosh B. You’re still there??????? THANK YOU for being faithful to my blog even tho I’ve not really posted anything proper in ages!!! I’m so happy to hear from you!!!

I’m glad you liked my post XD Ok so. I remembered that what I tried to express is called “Watsonian vs. Doylish” interpretation in fandom (based on this post), or easier, it’s about giving in-universe explanations vs. ex-universe explanations for something that happens in the plot. The actual literary terms according to Gérard Genette for that would be “intra-diegetic” vs. “extra-diegetic”. 

The specific difference the terms “back-end vs. front-end motivation” makes, seems to be the phenomenon that building a story from the start allows it to better make sense inside the universe, whereas building a story from its ending reveals the circumstances that the author found themselves in when creating it.

Anyway so what I always found strange is that Httyd2 had all those same problems you named, yet no one talks about that and only bashes on the third movie! Wanna enlighten me on why the second movie worked for you???

Ok so this is spontaneously going to turn into the “Ooc Hiccup post” that I promised at the beginning of the year. I hope you’re ok with that. 

WHY IS HICCUP OOC IN HTTYD2?

because his new conflict (”becoming Chief”) was pulled out of thin air and wasn’t already an established extension of Berk’s situation. (a part I always loved about Httyd1 was that Hiccup wasn’t made out to be a Disney Princess who would have to face the duty of leading eventually. I expected the question of succession to be handled far more casually - that someone who wanted to be worthy could be Chief on Berk, not because Hiccup was expected to continue Stoick’s legacy. In fact I wish Stoick would have let him go rampant with the smithy and all his crazy inventions, making him Gobber’s successor first - since Gobber is also canonically older than Stoick - and lining Astrid up to be the next actual Chief. There could have been a sudden plot twist where Astrid realizes she doesn’t want to do it alone and that she needs Hiccup in this with her. It would have made them the ruling couple in a different way.)

because the movie made him immature on purpose so it could justify slapping the “necessary” growth arc on him. (Look, Hiccup has always been reckless and a little bit too trusting when presented with danger, but he was never ignorant of a certain reality or too stupid to see error in his ways. Httyd2 depicts him as a naive dragon geek who can’t see past the destructive potential this has on the humans around him. Eret has had a shit life and a dark past. Drago has his reasons for what he does. Yet Hiccup is far too quick to ignore the trauma that the tribes of the Archipelago suffered because of the dragon plague, and simply forgives his mother despite the fact that she chose to save dragons over raising her own son. It’s all in the name of dragon welfare now and that is just not Hiccup. Og Hiccup took time to engage with Astrid’s valid scepticism. Og Hiccup killed the Red Death to save his tribe. He did not attempt to train that one, if you get what I’m saying. The dragons were never pets.)

because Stoick died only so he wouldn’t get in the way of Hiccup’s leadership. (After all that happens, Hiccup - to me - hasn’t suddenly evolved into a wiser or more experienced person. He just righteously got his ass kicked for the stupidity that was forced onto his character. He then becomes Chief not because he has learned much from the situation, but because Stoick is now dead. It’s true that Hiccup says “Sorry, Dad” to the funeral pyre, but it is never specified what he’s sorry for. To me, he does understand that he got his father killed, but he doesn’t get a grasp on why. He hasn’t the faintest notion of what Stoick did for him, to what extent his father came after him. There was desperation in Stoick to save his son. And Hiccup never feels this guilt much. It is then very convenient that he can freely lead the people of Berk and appear as a competent Chief simply because there is no more Stoick to disagree with him. I loved the version in the books where Hiccup becomes king and Stoick as well as Valhallarama are both alive and well to see it!!!! And Stoick, Chief of the Hairy Hooligans, has to take a step back and let his son shine.)

Right. So that’s that. The second point is by far my greatest criticism regarding Httyd2. Hiccup, in my opinion, was always balanced between the needs of dragons and humans. He is not a “dragon geek”. It simply so happened that a dragon became his best friend because no one else wanted to be his friend at first. Movie!Hiccup is an “invention geek”!!! The time he spends building stuff in the smithy is so important to his character! He doesn’t fix stuff by talking. He fixes stuff by building tools first and explaining them to everyone else second. That’s how I’ve always understood him. Httyd3 Hiccup partly returned to that focus with his fireproof armor, the fully developed flightsuits and the docking contraption for ships that he made on New Berk. The Hiccup I know acts more, gains emotional insight by observation, and talks less.

Of course I agree with all of your criticism of Httyd3. Yes the movie felt strained. But I admit that because I enjoyed Hiccup’s hesitant yet determined character again, I can overlook its flaws much easier than the flaws of Httyd2.

Let me know what you think!

[avannak]

Hi! So, you remember Stoick's funeral in HTTYD2 just after they've all fired their burning arrows then the camera gives shots of the group's reactions (Fishlegs crying, Snotlout trying to hide tears, etc.) - I'm interested to know how you interpret Astrid's reaction, that sort of piteous smile she gives Hiccup? How do you interpret that? Thanks!

Hiccup says “I’m sorry, dad” and then we flash to Astrid, who had previously been zoned out on where the arrow’s hit... perhaps noting Hiccup’s silhouette in the flames moving in the foreground...

...Then, as though his words have just reached her, she reacts with a close-lipped, almost exasperated-but-knowing smile.  Like it was those words, from Hiccup, that drew her from reflection.

And that’s the best way I tend to interpret her little reaction. That she hears this depreciating comment that is just… so Hiccup. That’s he’s apologizing, again, because she knows, probably better than anyone (save, perhaps, for Gobber) that Hiccup’s always held this unrealistic understanding of how his own father viewed him. Regardless of all the progress the pair have made in communication, Hiccup still can’t shake the weight that he’s somehow coming up short in his father’s eyes, that he had somehow failed him, or disappointed him, in some manner or another. Astrid will, and has, told him otherwise -- been the mediator between the two men -- but both are stubborn and far too alike.

So here Hiccup stands, choosing “sorry” as his final words to his father. And despite everything that’s just gone down Astrid can only think how Hiccup it is.

Again, this is just how I’ve chosen to read it. I’ve mentioned it in other posts (here and here, specifically) but I found Astrid sort of annoyingly muted throughout the movie. Especially when it came to big emotional moments. We had her delightfully readable in the first movie – tearful and reactive; angry and ugly. Stoick’s funeral and Hiccup’s “almost death” were just… bleh. Here we have Valka, Hiccup’s estranged mother, shrieking and throwing herself at the ice surrounding her child and Astrid falls back into pretty-plot-device-on-stand-by.

[tenebrius-excellium]

Ohhhhhhhhk Httyd2. Once more...

Toothless deserved an apology...

he deserved it so hard that it’s really difficult for me to rewatch the second movie actually because all it really leaves is bitterness about the crack in Toothcup’s friendship that’s never restored and Hiccup getting no chance at all to process his father’s death. There’s no catharsis for the viewer - for either of the two problems

Httyd2 deserved a two-hour-movie

“I won’t leave you, I won’t let you go” was NOT redundant it would have been the pathetic but viable excuse of that apology... something to reassure Toothless that Hiccup was never going to leave him in the first place, he just got a bit emotional which everyone would have understood

I need Hiccup to MOURN

I need their friendship to be RESTORED pls, like Hiccup was constantly abusing Toothless’ trust and otherwise ignoring him

really it was so freaking funny seeing everyone losing it over Httyd3 I was like ???? Httyd2 literally had all the same issues lol

one suggestion though: What if Eret had been a woman and it would have been Snotlout’s love story... please the guy deserves a great trapper lady to knock some growth into him also more women yasss

“I won’t leave you, I won’t let you go” was NOT redundant

“I won’t leave you, I won’t let you go” was NOT redundant

yes I’m kinda watching that reel over and over right now. It’s perfection and exactly what was needed. Let’s see if I find some more deleted scenes. The one with Cloudjumper at the beginning of Flying With Mother was always my favorite. But the “I got back something that I didn’t know I’d lost” one is also a treasure. 

[tenebrius-excellium]

Lol told you 😆 Excellinor is most definitely a Creature of most wicked intentions. A truly blackened soul. 10/10 would never meet again. Unfortunately, her son takes after her. —Ceo

Her son. You'd think Alvin would learn, wouldn't you? I mean sure, to him it always looks like Hiccup is feeding him to various dragons, which is... objectively funny ahahahhahahaha

I think that even if playing the pity party, I'd ask at some point, having lost my nose and all, what it was that got me into situations where I lost literal limbs - and would turn to dragons as my No. 1 enemy, not some scrawny boy who was just fighting to escape death himself.

However, if Hiccup starts to advocate for dragons' rights and all that later on, that's when beef truly will get personal and Alvin is bound to hate Hiccup for it. That's when they are fated to be enemies, because both parties have good reasoning for their actions. Oh my gosh I just realized that it's literally just Drago's motive in the movie O_O

Oh. my. gosh. Yeah. Imagine dragons take away your loved ones. Your home. Your literal limbs. Crushing bones and digesting your life. And here comes this annoying, youthful little shit telling you that ❀☆✧ "dragons are kind and amazing creatures" ✿❁✧☆ AND he has a matching peg leg to mock your pain with his overcoming attitude. All the while, you have conquered the brutality of dragons with equally brutal justice. It took work, y'know. It took putting yourself in danger and buying equipment and being witty and taking on a Bewilderbeast just to survive and come out on top for another day. And here's this red-haired ridiculous freckled boy trying to lecture you that all your previous efforts were in vain because "love wins". No. There were times when violence won, and Drago knew that and Hiccup didn't. Drago should have asked Hiccup about his leg as well. That's when Hiccup could have said that he found a way to forgive, and Drago could have answered that well, that didn't match his own experience and he'd come too far to change his mind now. And as for a succeeding conqueror who would've had to admit failure in the midst of his campaign, that would have been a fair answer for a villain.

Freaking heck. Framed differently, Drago could have been a sound villain and just as intelligent as Alvin (or Viggo). The cardboard character could have been the most respected antagonist in any piece of media, ever. Wow. I have a newfound admiration for book!Alvin now, because his story checks out. Sorry, I suppose I've tried to view him through the image of movie!Alvin before, which is in no way a proper comparison. Dude, Mildew. Mildew represented a hint of Alvin's finesse. Just a hint. But DUDE. The moral stakes ------ I want to write about something like this now!!!!!!!!!????? About how older characters have difficulties with change because admitting the need for change means that they may have dedicated their entire lives to a lifestyle that is "wrong" ...??? and how their way of living takes respect too because they did it as well as they knew. DUDE.

Just.......just take that entire thing I said right there and apply it to the actual late Queen of England, and see how well our young generation does in having compassion and validation for older people who definitely did wrong things. Perhaps we know better today. But the old people had a valid experience and reasons for their actions too. This is a hot take that sounds absolutely mad, but perhaps reflecting about colonization etc. just wasn't a priority for a generation of English citizens who freshly came out of a world war. Should they have reflected? Abso-freaking-lutely. Should the Queen have done more? Frickking YES! Was there enough time after the war? Surely!!! But dare I say that...people had war losses. People were selfishly focussing on getting the economy back running, getting food on the table, managing Germany, mourning their dead, getting a life again. That's a lot of change already. And I think at some point, when you grow old, you simply tire of change, no matter how important it is. Few have the energy to rise up again for yet another matter, despite how important. And so...that becomes a task left for the newly rising youth. The fresh spirits. That's now. The English have a marvelous opportunity to change right now if need be. Sadly, change will often only come when the majority of the citizens are affected badly by the current system, not just the minority. See, I know a lot of plain ignorance plays into the situation as well.

Here is a song that came on my mind while I was writing this...

Looking now at this random essay I just wrote, the moral potential of Httyd is amazing. Look at it. I love how the tiny fraction of the book!fandom that I know of wholeheartedly agrees that Cressida gives invaluable moral prompts to think about - that translate really well into the real world. Educational fiction - gosh, how much I aspire to do the same for others!!!

Anyway, returning to Excellinor. Umm. Yeah. I'm terrified to hear from her in the last 4 books. She's a formidable force to be reckoned with. Ouch. I wince for Hiccup already.

Thanks for sending me this ask, my answer got quite philosophical lol. But I love this. I love when stuff makes you think and change.

Cheers

Reddie

[tenebrius-excellium]

Thinking about what if shipping dragons off to the hidden world for their own protection had been Valka's idea. I'm still somewhat salty about Httyd2 undoing all that Hiccup achieved in Httyd1 with "being the first one to ride a dragon" and all, so imo Valka should get to be a little more unhinged. I mean.

When I take a look at the Bewilderbeast's dragon sanctuary, that's literally a makeshift version of a secret dragon world, isn't it? A hidden nest? Isn't it Valka who wants dragons to stop having to interact with humans at all? Shouldn't she already have theories about the whereabouts of a hidden world location, based on migration patterns and everything else she knows about dragons? Shouldn't she be the one jumping at the opportunity to find it?

I liked that she had the learning arc of "hiding everyone away doesn't work" in Httyd3. But that didn't seem to account for a 'dragons only' version. She still believed in the cause of protecting dragons somewhere else. It was Hiccup who never gave up wanting to believe in the peaceful coexistence between humans and dragons. Like, Idk if the stances would have been slightly shifted, with Valka creating a polar opposition, would it have made any satisfying difference?

Anywho, I'm - again - amazed at Dreamworks' creativity to create worlds within worlds, like shells, or layers - see the volcano on Dragon Island, see the Bewilderbeast's nest, similar to the dinosaur world in Ice Age 3. It's just frustrating that these ecosystems aren't allowed to be connected - instead, they're closed-off islands where certain humans may not venture based on other humans' ideas of the role dragons should play. It would be fantastic to explain this stuff naturally - like, if the hidden world had been all lava, humans could not have lived there for the sake of environmental incompatibility. And it would have naturally prevented any villains from going down there as well. I believe the dragons deserve a realm that truly belongs to them and them alone, like deep-sea creatures. That doesn't mean they should be restricted to those spaces for their 'safety', of course.

Idk I'm just rambling. But Valka and her attitude could have been played a little differently and while I do not think it would have been fruitful to the story, I currently like the experiment.

[tenebrius-excellium]

Returning to really ponder Httyd2 since it's the 10 year anniversary and I believe that I actually could have liked it - as in, it would have been a fundamentally different & more positive viewing experience for me - if the lighting hadn't been so dramatically off.

See, to me, Httyd2 carries a very distinct "unfinished" touch. I know next to nothing about professional animation, but I can tell that...

a) there is one layer missing on the final character/environmental render (the 'glow', as I like to call it for lack of a better term of description)

b) the writing can be very cardboard-like at times and seems not very fluent or dynamic. Notice how the conversation comes to a stark halt and dies down the moment Hiccstrid meets Eret. Everything is reduced to "what are you doing", "what are you talking about", and robotically echoing what Eret explains. It shortly gets better again when Hiccup meets Valka, but becomes boring once more in the sanctuary when the curious new dragons are used to distract from the rather bland exchange of a lot of information between Valka and Hiccup. Sure, they need to catch up, and it's fascinating to them - but there are more sophisticated ways of telling this stuff if you need to keep an audience engaged at the same time. Anyway.

c) there is a huuuge contrast between the lightest and the darkest scenes in the movie. And it's blinding, to be honest. The "Where No One Goes" sequence is sooo bright. The sanctuary as well. When confronted with Valka's cave reveal and Drago's scenes, the switch to darkness is very uncomfortable on the eyes of the watcher. The colors often seem bleak and watered down too. It takes away from the ability to immerse oneself since the individual scenes don't blend into a continuous, harmonious viewing experience. All kinds of color tones are thrown together without a common "filter", so to speak - the missing "glow" which I was talking about.

So all in all, Httyd2 is really good, it's just somewhat edgy - as edgy as Hiccup's chiseled jaw.

One can tell that they developed this absolutely amazing new technology for this animation and then kinda got lost playing around with it. They had so much fun trying to get to know the new tools that they forgot they had an actual movie with a coherent plot and proper design to make. Httyd2 feels exciting and cool, but the making of feels somewhat empty and rushed.

My eyes were opened to this by a certain gifset which I can't seem to find right now, but it somehow tweaked the saturation in a way where suddenly there was depth being created in many of the Httyd2 scenes that had just felt flat to me before. It's interesting how color influences the ability to immerse oneself. EDIT: This is not the one I meant, but it comes close!!

Anywho, I don't know, I didn't mean for this to be so negative or whatever... it's just something that I keep and keep noticing... in a rather technical, educational manner... where I can't help but think to myself what a shame it is that they had to meet an early deadline with Httyd2. Cuz being granted nine months more, give or take, would have made the difference for the team to develop this 'good sequel' into an actual M A S T E R P I E C E. Good things take their time.

It's all there. In the beginnings, in the vision, in the trenches. The amazingness just didn't quite make it to the surface. The last finish, the final gloss, is missing. Aaaaarrrrrgggghhh. Haha.

That said, I'm learning to love Httyd2 as it is. It did not carry the message I needed back then either. We're slowly growing on each other, as the message becomes more apparent now. Eh. Lol.

[tenebrius-excellium]

I am realizing that mayyyyyybe Httyd 2 would make a lot more sense to me if it only had been a 3-year-gap and Hiccup had simply been labeled 18 instead of 20. The advantages of this:

Berk would still feel more like home, you know, too much can happen in 5 years. Berk is just totally missing the “beloved, familiar” vibe; it’s like I completely missed out on all the changes Hiccup made because so much time has passed. How am I supposed to reconnect with a boy and a place that I haven’t seen in half a decade honestly

it would match the speed of Hiccup’s inventive pattern better. Like, Idk, if Hiccup stayed as obsessed with dragon gear and with bettering the village and the like, I’m surprised not more has changed in those 5 years!? Remember that Hiccup didn’t exactly go to school - he was becoming a blacksmith-turned-leatherworker, which means he was literally able to tinker with most of his ideas full-time as part of his profession. He also wouldn’t have had to work alone anymore, since most of Berk was on board with the changes. So to me, 5 years actually seems a little too much time on his hands to make *only* those changes we see on screen?? I’m confused. Did he solely continue inventing in his spare time? Neither option makes sense, so what else *has* the boy been doing? I’m feeling a gap here that endangers Berk of becoming boring again, since the changes have apparently been dragging over time. This feeling doesn’t match the euphoric action vibe Hiccup introduces us with in the beginning of the second movie. Or is it just me?

And now, for the final thing that felt very off: Hiccup was, well... faaaar too youthful still to be already 20 years of age. I’ve promised you guys the ooc post and I will write it, however... I’m starting to wonder if I’d have been more accepting of his demeanor if I had simply been allowed to imagine he was 18. Hiccup is over-confident, stupid, destructive, he is having way too much fun and he’s proud of it, with not a single care in the world aiming to rebel and change everything... and well... that was just not me anymore when I myself was 20 years old. At 20, I had long since moved out from home and had started to fend for myself. Bills & housing & work & education and the like were starting to make me think in a more realistic manner. And since Hiccup wasn’t preoccupied with any of these things in his own universe, I felt that he had nothing to teach me anymore even though he was older than me when the second movie came out! The way Hiccup behaved at age 20 was me at maybe 17. And I truly wonder if it’s mayhaps a US thing to grow up slower, with some of your responsibilites being pushed back to the age of 21. I don’t want to make an assumption, but I have no other explanation. Again, is it just me?

So yeah anyway, perhaps I could have lived with Httyd2 if the director hadn’t been so terribly specific with the age mention or something. 

I. Don’t. Know. What I know is that it bugs me. Too much. Oof haha.

[writechoice24]

I think it’s important to note that Stoick lived his life fully believing that he would see Valka after his death, in Vahalla.

Meaning that he saw his wife as a HERO, a WARRIOR, someone worthy of being seated at the table of chiefs and gods and goddesses. This was just a given to him. Even though his entire village (except probably Gobber) saw her as a nuisance and a hindrance. Just, wow.