#hydra meta

[andarthas-web]

@trekfaerie

In response to this post:

In the prequel comics to CATFA, the Red Skull EXPLICITLY states that he does NOT follow the Nazi ideology, and that he thinks racism and antisemistim are “racist superstition masquerading as junk science”.

The pic you posted is decades old and from the comics....which are not really relevant to the MCU.

Sorry, but I have news for you: not every group of genocidal douchebags is Nazis.

But if you want to do something about them, you’d better damn well learn the differences.

[andarthas-web]

Bucky Barnes on trial - guilty as charged?

No.

The moment you bring fictional and extremely powerful brainwashing techniques into the mix, such as the Faustus Method or the mental wipes made possible by the Chair, there is a really solid basis for a defense on grounds of insanity / mental disorder.

Does Bucky, during his time as the Winter Soldier, meet that definiton of “insanity”?

Well, one definition of insanity that has been used for this is the accused being “totally deprived of his understanding and memory and knew what he was doing “no more than a wild beast or a brute, or an infant”“ and Bucky certainly gets full marks on this one.

Another definition of insanity that also gets used in this legal context is “under some delusion would be excused only if it would have been excusable had the delusion been true.”

Given that Bucky obviously has NO idea who his targets really are (see Steve and Howard Stark) and given Alexander Pierce’s quote of “Mission report” and “Your work has been a gift to mankind. You shaped the century. And I need you to do it one more time.” it’s pretty obvious that the Soldier believes he is under legitimate military orders and that whatever he is doing is something positive that will make the world a better place, otherwise Pierce wouldn’t have to stress that part so much in order to make the Soldier fall back in line enough to get him to lie back and be wiped again.

Each and every soldier out there who kills under orders is not committing murder, but a justifiable homicide (unless it counts as a war crime, the rules for which were written after WWII) and it is quite probable that the Soldier was trained to see them as such.

So the Soldier being under the delusion that he was not committing murder, but justifiable homicide would meet the second definiton of insanity too.

So yeah, all things considered, Bucky should pretty much get off scott-free, aquitted on account of NGRI: Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity.

[kyliafanfiction-archive]

I know you. I was like you once. But then I opened my eyes. Open your eyes, Captain. Why is the Federation so obsessed with the Maquis? We've never harmed you. And yet we're constantly arrested and charged with terrorism. Starships chase us through the Badlands, and our supporters are harassed and ridiculed. Why? Because we've left the Federation, and that's the one thing you can't accept. Nobody leaves Paradise, everyone should want to be in the Federation! Hell, you even want the Cardassians to join. You're only sending them replicators because one day, they can take their rightful place on the Federation Council. You know, in some ways, you're even worse than the Borg. At least they tell you about their plans for assimilation. You're more insidious, you assimilate people - and they don't even know it.

Micheal Eddington, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, Episode 4x21 “For the Cause.” While I don’t 100% agree with what Eddington says here (and thing the Maqui are a bunch of stubborn cusses who should have just moved when they were given the opportunity), I do think he has a good point (and of course Sisko’s point about the trouble being Earth, from Episode 2x21 is important to this discussion tangentially). The Federation does want to bring everyone in. They want to make friends with everyone all the time and then they want those friends to be part of them - the history of the Federation itself is a history of it slowly enveloping species after species in a peaceful, friendly assimilation, creating homogenized values through things like Starfleet. There’s still incredible variation (the federation isn’t all that old as of DS9), but you can still reasoably speak of a ‘Federation Culture’ and ‘Federation Ideals’ that are to a degree, distinct to the ideals or culture of any given member world/species. The thing is, the Federation, when you look at it the way eddington does, reminds me of Hydra, from the MCU. Now, bear with me, because I know how that sounds. But as I discuss here, my view of Hydra is that they are, for a fascistic terrorist organization, exceptionally open. Unlike the Nazis, or ISIS, or Scientology or whatever, Hydra isn’t an exclusionary group. They want everyone to be a member of Hydra - because Hydra iis the obvious, only way forward.  Hydra is willing to kill anyone who isn’t Hydra, but their entire fundamental idea is that Hydra should envelope everyone. That Hydra should be everyone - they don’t exclused based on anything (they are, as the movies and shows prove, extremely diverse and open to members from all over the world.) Hydra is a globalized, idealistic fascism. The Federation is in no way Fascist, but it has the same, globalized idealism and belief that their way is the best (see: Federation Arrogance in... like every episode, although its often tempered to varrying degrees by doctrines like the Prime Directive.... sometimes. Sort of. Trek suffers from a lot of inconsistent writing in the worldbuilding). The basic objectives and founding conceits of both Hydra and the Federation are similar - the methods are different, and Hydra is willing to cross lines that the Federation (theoretically) isn’t, but both groups are inclusive, open, assimilative and in some ways, insidious (as discussed in this brilliant exchange between Quark and Garak) as to how they get people into them, used to them, to expand their power and influence and envelope more people. This is really just a rambling post, since there’s no real conclusive point here, I just thought it was interestin.

[andarthas-web]

Hello Andartha it's me again. There is a question that has been on my mind for some time now. Do you remember when in captain America the Winter Soldier Hydra was described as a rouge Nazi science division? (Don't get me wrong I full agree with the arguments that you made that they weren't) I was watching Valkrie the other day and it got me thinking, would Claus Von Stauffenberg and the rest of the plotters be considered rouge Nzais just as Hydra was described in the Winter Soldier?

The Soldiers and Officers involved in what has become known as “Operation Valkyrie” would quite certainly qualify as rogue Nazis.

I’d say thought that the term “rogue Nazi” wouldn’t be quite accurate when applied to Hydra.

Hydra (in the MCU) was never committed to the Nazi’s goals. They just played along in order to reach their own (different, but equally horrific) goals. Calling Hydra “rogue Nazis” makes about as much sense as referring to them as “rogue Shield agents”.

Within the Marvel Universe itself however, it would make perfect sense for a museum exhibit, put together by using testimony from people who fought Hydra, but weren’t Hydra themselves, to refer to Hydra as “rogue Nazis”, simply because they didn’t have access to Hydra’s internal (and secret) policies and agendas.

Basically, from the outside looking in, Hydra would seem like they originated with the Nazis (which has been confirmed in canon that they DID NOT. They are far older.).

And of course, this mis-judgement on the part of their detractors is well and fully within Hydra’s interests, because if you’re thinking “Nazis”, and “we beat those fair and square”, you’ll never suspect that Hydra is alive and well within other organisations and that they’d recruit PoCs like Sitwell and Nobel Peace Prize almost-laureates like Pierce.

P.S.:

…and yes, I know that Hitler also got nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, but if you look at this a little more closely, THAT was an ironic statement by a member of the swedish parliament, Erik Brandt, which fell victim to Poe’s law……

Also, Pierce would have gotten the prize, but declined.

[andarthas-web]

Not quite the setting I had in mind, but there’s this theme of duty and the price loyalty will cost you, how it will take you far away from where you’ve left your heart for safe-keeping.....so....

[ozhawkauthor]

Your theories on Hydra just blew my mind. Seriously, what if there is such a cult working in our reality right now?! These conspiracies!

It’s very Dan Brown-ian, isn’t it? The Illuminati, the Knights Templar and all that sort of stuff. I dunno. Maybe I’ve just been reading too many of those sorts of things - and maybe it’s just because I re-watched National Treasure recently with my boys - but it strikes me as perfectly plausible. And ever so much fun to play with, as a fanfiction writer!

The only possible motive I can come up with, though, is money. Money and political power.

But that’s in OUR world, where superheroes, if they are among us, aren’t publicly known. Where magic isn’t acknowledged as part of reality as it is in the MCU, even if the scientists like Jemma Simmons insist it’s just science we’re not sufficiently advanced enough to understand yet. 

In the MCU, I find it all too plausible that Hydra have infiltrated pretty much every organisation of substance worldwide. Freemasonry, with its occultish tendencies, would certainly appeal to Hydra. As would Scientology :)

As I said about Hydra the other day, I reckon it has at least one thing in common with Scientology. You don’t find out about the aliens until you get to a certain level of seniority. 

[andarthas-web]

Hydra: pretty damn effin’ evil, but still NOT nazis

And since ep. 8 of season 3 of AoS, the MCU canon is pretty much irrefutable in that regard. ^_^

(Not like canon was unclear about this before....but some people love sticking to their preconceived notions too much as that they are able to take a hint. ^_~)

[andarthas-web]

Hello andartha, I absolutely love the debates and points you make about Hydra educating the masses. The question I have for you is would you consider both SHIELD and Hydra to be rogue nations?

Thanks. I enjoy writing them and it’s terrific to hear that others enjoy reading them too! ^_^

In order to be a nation, you usually require some territory, which Hydra does not have at this point.

Also, they couldn’t care less about the nationalities that people DO have, as long as they’re loyal to the cause and the ideology.

So I’d say Hydra is a something between a global terror organisation and a cult. 

However, since their machinations are very closely interworven with the politics and social structures of many countries, similar to those of the UN, it might be necessary to create a new term to describe them more accurately.

Maybe “Criminal Rogue International Organisation”.

SHIELD WAS an international organisation, akin to a global police / spy force, with an international mandate.

And yes, the world of the MCU NEEDS such an international, global police force, since local forces would be much harder to coordinate efficiently in the face of such international threats as HYDRA, AIM, aliens….etc.

Through Hydra’s fault (and maybe, maybe also a bit through their own negligence) they have currently lost that mandate.

Thing is…..the world of the MCU quite bitterly needs such an international police force, and they have nobody around to fill SHIELDS shoes.

So yes, SHIELD might not be following the letter of the law by keeping on going without an official mandate, but they are following the spirit of the law (…..admittedly sometimes a bit ineptly and in a make-it-up-as-you-go-along fashion, but hey, as they say, everything worth doing is worth doing not quite as competently at first).

So it might be accurate to dub them “Vigilante Rogue International Organisation” right now.

Thing is….when things change dramatically, it can take a while for laws and regulations and mandates to catch up.

So yeah….people might have to make a judgement call on this by themselves.

Because the alternative, sitting on your hands and doing nothing, or doing something, but a lot less than you could and than is necessary, are not really acceptable.

Thing is….just because something is the law, does not automatically mean it is right. Sometimes you have to go against the law to do the right thing.An example would be sit-ins against the Jim Crow laws, or all the other actions based on  “civil disobedience”, which led to things changing for the better.The tricky bit is having the knowledge and understanding in order to make the right call.