#joe meta

[iwritesnortsintragedies]

One thing I don't often consider during my bouts of "let's mix DND with my latest fandom obsession" is the difference between what class my blorbos would be and what class they would play (at least for their first game, we all know players tend to vary after a while)

They might be the same, but they also might not be.

For example: I think Joe Liebgott would be a fighter, probably dex based. Not just because he's from a no magic setting, but because he doesn't strike me as faithful enough to be a paladin, or as having the inclination to study enough to become an artificer. He does however have enough smarts to be a battle master.

As a player, I think he'd either go for maximum tanking with a moon druid/bear totem barbarian multi class OR a spy master rogue build for investigation and espionage (it'd make him feel like he's in one of his favorite comics).

Similarly, I think David Webster would be a wizard. I know bard seems like an obvious choice because he studied literature, but I don't think he has the charisma for it, and wizard fits better with what we see of him in the snow imo.

As a player, though, I do think he'd go for bard: it fits his artistic inclination, his general ability for intense studying AND his cautious nature by allowing him to stay out of harm's way if he plays his cards right

[mega-ringsandthings-world]

Something people really need to start understanding about Joe’s anger is that is comes from a place of heartbreak. Anger manifests in him when he is hurt deeply and personally. Joe is soft, Joe is kind, Joe is not the type of man that becomes angry with mild or petty provocation, and he is a very forgiving man, as his relationship with Nicky, - a man who once hated him and and only came to meet him by virtue of a quest against Joe’s people - shows. He doesn’t come to anger at the drop of a hat, or hold grudges. (no don’t @ me, he doesn’t hold grudges) When Booker’s betrayal is revealed in the lab and when Nicky is shot - those moments are both heartbreaking and the key to his anger, they unlock it, unlock something that’s held deep down within the man. Anger, or rather true anger does not come easily to Joe, yes, we see him experience, irritation, annoyance, a surge of pique, a sharp and impulsive surge of surface anger, but all these instances differ visibly from his real anger.  Example: when he headbutts Merrick versus him killing Keane, the former is almost showy, it’s an action spurred by indignation, it’s the defiant smirk of a loyal operative - that has been captured by the enemy - before the start of an interrogation. The latter action is executed with jaded quiet, there is no posturing, no grand defiance for the benefit of the room, there is only the fact that Joe has been hurt, and nothing else.  Joe’s anger is kept side by side with his love - not his loves, his love - and it emerges to protect his or avenge his love when it is damaged.   Compared to his teammate’s anger: Nicky’s anger is righteous anger, it’s always running and just under his skin, tidily stored away and impeccably controlled, yes, but it’s always there, ready to snake out at the slightest hint of a threat.  Andy wears her anger like a garment, and much like a garment’s fabric it swirls and ripples and sometimes catches and hits other people with its folds. Booker? Well, we never once see him display anger, do we? And he might not be capable of anger anymore, anger is one of the first things to go when apathy sets in.    Joe’s anger is stored deep, and stays deep, and never emerges except for when he is truly, truly hurt. And one of the only ways to hurt this man is through his heart, through his love. He’s strong, he’s a warrior, a legend, a hero, he can take, and has taken everything the world has thrown at him. So you hurt him by striking at what has kept him buoyant through the long years, which is his where his care is placed.  His family, his lover, Booker struck at his family, their family, Keane struck at his love, and both of these things rattled Joe to the core, you know they did. Such an attack would both break his heart and anger him.  It makes what he said to Keane more meaningful. Because while Joe’s kindness and love has become a thing of legend, beware if you ever threaten it. Beware if you break his heart. Beware if you betray him. You should not do that. 

[toli-a]

oh no why do you think yusuf taking over the team would be a disaster, and not the fun kind? (unless it's bc everyone else is just . . so damn chaotic, in which case, yes. yes they are.)

(Original post here.) Oh no, the chaos would be the fun kind of disaster! Yusuf standing there in the center a circle of madness like a tired substitute Kindergarten teacher surrounded by glitter glue and blocks and insanity is absolutely the best.

But if you watch the film, what’s Joe’s first priority all the time? Nico. They all get shot on the kill floor, and Joe’s panicked until Nicky’s okay, and then he goes hurtling across the room to fight at Nicky’s side. (Which is supposed to demonstrate their fighting styles for you, and it does, and Joe is shown to be one half of a fighting style.) In the van, Joe is frantic for Nicolo to revive (contrast this to Nicky’s quiet in the lab, waiting on Joe), he’s frantic in the lab, does a double take to make sure Nicky’s alive, frantic when Nicky gets shot in the head, and it’s Nicky who insists they get up and keep moving and get to Andy.

I think it’s tied to Joe’s uncertainty about their lives, discussed here, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing that he adores Nico and is absolutely terrified at the thought of losing him. And I think he’s smart and kind and thinks like a strategist, based on the little we know, so on paper he’s a great choice. (Also, who’s putting Nicky or Booker or Quynh in charge of strategy? Lord, no one with any sense.)

But let’s say it’s just the three men left. And Booker finds a job and Joe plans the entry and the exit and then something goes wrong and he prioritizes Nicky above Booker. He never does it in the initial plan, but he does it again and again and again during the job. And so eventually Booker leaves, because wouldn’t you? (Is it better, that when Copley approaches him, he can only turn himself over, because he doesn’t know where the other two are? Or worse, that it’s years before they find him, before they even know something is wrong.)

Or, even worse than that, both Booker and Nicky notice, and so Nicky starts drawing away, because Joe’s fears have gone from something they both deal with quietly to something that’s breaking up the family they have left, and Nicky’s not going to allow that. (Joe’s trying, of course, but fear isn’t rational and the middle of a fight isn’t rational and it’s not something he can turn off like a spout after a millennium, and Booker is depressed and petty enough to take pleasure in Nicky fighting with Joe, so he doesn’t try to tell them it’s all right, and so maybe this time ... but no, let’s not think about that.)

[toli-a]

Some inchoate thoughts that I might flesh out later, based mostly on the movie and a little bit on this.

Nicky’s certainty is a key theme through the movie, the counterpart to Andy’s disillusionment. (You can see her arc in that she quotes Nicky directly, toward the end, “if it’s my time,” and tells Booker to “have a little faith.”) Examples include: we can do some good, that they did it for the right reasons, that they are obligated to help Nile, that they fight for what they think is right, that they are destined, that everything has its time. x

And the movie keeps Joe and Nicky together on everything, for the most part. We never see them alone in a scene, minus a few seconds of window shattering. They are together about arguing for the job, about finding Nile, about explaining immortality, about describing Quynh. (There is the notable exception of Joe shouting at Booker in the lab and Nicky saying “stop,” but there are a lot of options for that, for exploring in some other meta post.)

What’s interesting is the quiet demonstrations of Joe’s uncertainty, that after nearly a millennium Nicky has found peace in their origins and their purpose and their unknown lifespan in a way that Joe has not.

Why do we dream each other? Nile wonders, and Joe makes a face and Nicky interrupts to talk about destiny and Joe winks at him, because no doubt he’s heard this before, and he loves that Nicky believes they are threaded through and through, all of them, meant to be. But he doesn’t believe it. What does he believe? (If he believed in destiny, like Nicky, perhaps he would be less terrified of losing him each time Nicky dies.)

Joe dies or is injured and Nicky doesn’t like it, certainly, is upset about Merrick stabbing Joe, but he never looks panicked like Joe does when Nicky dies. (Joe comes back to life in the lab and Nicky looks sad, and pleased to see him, but not astonishingly grateful or surprised, whereas Joe does a double take to make sure Nicky is there and alive before he calms down.) Even before they find out Andy is mortal, Joe’s first awakening is a frantic search for Nicky, desperation in his gaze. (The first kill floor, the van, the lab.)

(Do they talk about it, Joe’s uncertainty? Or is it one of the questions Joe is careful not to ask himself, what is the purpose to an uncertain immortality? What will he do, if he blinks back to life one day and Nicky is gone?)