#maester colemon

[atopvisenyashill]

What do you think about Master Colemon? He tried to help Jon Arryn after he got sick with poison but Pycelle sends him away. Now he is tending Sweet Robin with his fits and shakes. I feel like he will be able to help Sweet Robin and save him unlike he was able to do with Jon Arryn. Though not sure.

Yeah, there's definitely some weirdness around Colemon. Firstly, there's not a real way for him to diagnose Sweetrobin as having epilepsy - at best they'd call it something like "falling sickness" or "shaking sickness" (maybe not shaking as that's close to shivers, icr if someone describes Robin as having a shaking sickness or not tho). Which isn't a real diagnosis - they're going to treat it the way they know how but it's not going to be an effective treatment. Bleeding, drugging him, mother's milk, none of that will actually help what is wrong with him nor does it actually help calm him in the long run, it just makes him weak and lethargic. But that's the base treatment for Westeros. While the Maesters can do a lot I think epilepsy is just so far above what they're capable of treating. And he seems a little too willing to cave to Petyr but that likely comes from years of treating Sweetrobin with no relief. Fine, sure, let's just drug the kid up.

But secondly considering his use - and disapproval - of using the dreamwine on Robin, he probably would have caught onto Jon Arryn being poisoned if he got to poke around long enough. I've always assumed Pycelle sent him away because Pycelle suspected it was the Lannisters who poisoned Jon Arryn (little does he know). I don't know that we have a reason to suspect Colemon is in on any plot so much as he's just floundering because he's in an impossible situation.

Could he save Sweetrobin as he couldn't save Jon Arryn? Definitely possible he could finally put his foot down, or let Sansa know something incriminating. Noteworthy here that he and Catelyn briefly talk and he seems amenable to letting her know information before they're interrupted - it's possible that if he finds out for certain she isn't Littlefinger's daughter that he might confide in her. Or maybe he would snitch to the Lords Declarant about what's happening.

[agentrouka-blog]

Hiiiiiiii :3 I’m here with another stupid (😎) ask :33

What do you think of Sansa’s line “my father and I have other concerns” when she and Maester Colemon are talking about giving Sweetrobin sweet milk. Maester Colemon objects to Sansa’s demand that SR be given sweetmilk again when going down the mountain. She’s pretty adamant about SR sweetmilk even as Maester Colemon shows concerns about nosebleeds. Many have theorised this as Sansa knowingly poisoning SR and has been touted as the Sansa = villain (🙄) theory by the antis pretty steadfastly. Does Sansa know about poisoning SR? What other concerns do she and LF have? Is she actually poisoning SR or is she just irritated with him and wants him to shut up?

Hello!

Neither. She's genuinely concerned with Sweetrobin's future as Lord of the Vale, after GRRM has taken care to insert not one but two shaking fits into the previous chapters that leave him incapacitated and soiled, and which are generally treated with "medicine" just as harsh or worse, like high level narcotics, alcohol or leeching and bleeding. .

This stuff is rightfully seen as an improvement. He's awake, calm, not losing blood or ingesting addictive substances.

And while he hedges and mutters, Colemon never comes right out and states "It could kill him". He lets a distracted Alayne cut him off or trails off by himself. And he eventually relents, giving the appearance that his concerns are not that serious.

And Alayne is rightfully distracted. After a peacefully resolved siege against the rule of Littlefinger (guardian of Sweetrobin), they are coming down to spend the winter with Lord Nestor, accessible to the Vale lords (his future subjects who need to respect him) for the first time in a long time. And the descent itself is also very dangerous, as we will be shown.

“The Lord of the Eyrie cannot descend from his mountain tied up like a sack of barleycorn.” Of that Alayne was certain. They dare not let the full extent of Robert’s frailty and cowardice become too widely known, her father had warned her. [...] “It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I’ve told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time …” “Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs.” “I try, my lady, yet his fits grow ever more violent, and his blood is so thin I dare not leech him any more. Sweetsleep … you are certain he was not bleeding from the nose?” [...] “Very well.” They paused at the foot of the stairs. “But this must be the last. For half a year, or longer.” “You had best take that up with the Lord Protector.” She pushed through the door and crossed the yard. Colemon only wanted the best for his charge, Alayne knew, but what was best for Robert the boy and what was best for Lord Arryn were not always the same. Petyr had said as much, and it was true. Maester Colemon cares only for the boy, though. Father and I have larger concerns.

(AFFC, Alayne II)

That's his future she is trying to protect. Not to mention, this is before she ever learns about Harry the Heir. Why on earth would she support poisoning him, when Littlefinger's protection of her depends on his role as Sweetrobin's guardian?

This is the same Sansa that is planning his new bodyguard crew in her TWOW sample chapter, who considers what his future wife will love about him, the same Sansa whose gentle care even Colemon acknowledges helps Sweetrobin calm himself without medicine. No, she is not knowingly poisoning the kid.

(Also, Maester Colemon may well be playing his own game, giving him antidotes or refusing to administer doses, depending on how you want to interpret the fact that Sweetrobin still suffers a shaking spell on the mountain, and the "vile" substance mixed into his milk without explanation.)

[asoiafreadthru]

HOUSE ARRYN

The Arryns are descended from the Kings of Mountain and Vale, one of the oldest and purest lines of Andal nobility. Their sigil is the moon-and-falcon, white, upon a sky blue field. The Arryn words are As High as Honor.

[JON ARRYN], Lord of the Eyrie, Defender of the Vale, Warden of the East, Hand of the King, recently deceased,

His first wife, [LADY JEYNE, of House Royce], died in childbed, her daughter stillborn,

His second wife, [LADY ROWENA, of House Arryn], his cousin, died of a winter chill, childless,

His third wife and widow, LADY LYSA, of House Tully,

Their son:

ROBERT ARRYN, a sickly boy of six years, now Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale,

Their retainers and household:

MAESTER COLEMON, counselor, healer, and tutor,

SER VARDIS EGEN, captain of the guard,

SER BRYNDEN TULLY, called the Blackfish, Knight of the Gate and uncle to the Lady Lysa,

LORD NESTOR ROYCE, High Steward of the Vale,

SER ALBAR ROYCE, his son,

MYA STONE, a bastard girl in his service,

LORD EON HUNTER, suitor to Lady Lysa,

SER LYN CORBRAY, suitor to Lady Lysa,

MYCHEL REDFORT, his squire,

LADY ANYA WAYNWOOD, a widow,

SER MORTON WAYNWOOD, her son, suitor to Lady Lysa,

SER DONNEL WAYNWOOD, her son,

MORD, a brutal gaoler,

The principal houses sworn to the Eyrie are Royce, Baelish, Egen, Waynwood, Hunter, Redfort, Corbray, Belmore, Melcolm, and Hersy.

[maid-with-sunset-in-her-hair]

Hi! Correct me if I am wrong, didn't Alayne ordered Maester Coleman to give a cup of sweetsleep while going to Moon Gate? Did she know what amount of medicine had to be given to him? I think she didn't know the amount of dose given to him.

Hello Dot!! Yes, she orders Colemon to give Sweetrobin another cup before going to the Moon Gate. No, she knows what dosage Littlefinger wants Colemon to give Sweetrobin, because she's our POV for that scene. That doesn't mean Colemon obeyed her, though:

Half the night was gone before they sighted the lights of the Gates of the Moon through the falling snow. The last part of their journey was the most peaceful. The snow fell steadily, cloaking all the world in white. Sweetrobin drifted to sleep in the saddle, swaying back and forth with the motion of his mule. (AFFC Alayne II)

We know a pinch is enough to knock out a grown man for eight hours, but Sweetrobin stays awake all day and half the night after supposedly drinking that amount. I mean:

"In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you've planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. (AFFC Alayne I)

This conversation happens the chapter before Alayne orders Colemon around, and while it probably foreshadows how Sansa is going to rebel against Littlefinger, who says is not foreshadowing something else?

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

[jackoshadows]

Maester Colemon maybe incompetent and too scared to stand up for his patients, but at least he tries to save their lives with his flawed treatments unlike treacherous rat Maester Pycelle who straight up participates in the murder of people under his care. 

In ACoK, Tyrion mentions how Colemon tried to help Jon Arryn and Pycelle sends him away to cover up that Jon was poisoned. Pycelle thought Colemon could have saved Jon Arryn with purges.

Tyrion tsked at him. "I saw the tears of Lys among your potions. And you sent away Lord Arryn's own maester and tended him yourself, so you could make certain that he died."   

"A falsehood! Yes," he whimpered, "yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it."

The old man wept. "Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask her” - A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

Pycelle wrongly thinks that it was Cersei who had Jon Arryn poisoned, when it was actually Lysa Arryn under Littlefinger’s orders. Which makes it rather funny that Pycelle would have been damn confused whenever Cersei accused him of Jon’s murder!

So we have the parallels of Maester Coleman trying to save Jon Arryn from poisoning by Lysa/Littlefinger and now Maester Coleman trying to save Robert Arryn from a sweetsleep overdose pushed forward by Sansa/Littlefinger. Whether he will succeed this time around in saving the Lord of the Eyrie or whether SweetRobin will go the way of his father remains to be seen.

I do think that Maester Colemon is ultimately doomed. He knows too much. If anything does happen to SweetRobin, he’s right there, ready for the framing that Littlefinger has prepared for him. Colemon will become another Marillion, tortured to confess to a crime he did not commit and I think that’s where his story is headed, considering the Maester is the only one handling the drugs which is probably going to be tampered with. 

As for Sansa, she will recall Maester Coleman’s warnings about the danger of Sweetsleep, remember Littlefinger straight up telling her that for their plans to succeed SweetRobin needs to die and finally be like:

[dwellordream]

Sansa is might be vaguely aware of the concept of overdosing, but that's not quite the same thing as cumulative poisons, and Colemon is being incredibly vague by saying "it does not leave the flesh". If he'd said "even small doses can be dangerous taken too close together" that would be a different story!

Colemon does literally nothing to clarify this with her or to tell her that this is seriously dangerous. He just lets her interrupt and then never brings it up again. She’s a child, he is a grown man with years of medical experience. He’s been quite willingly let Baelish (who damn well knows) poison Sweetrobin for months. He has no real regard for Robert’s health. That’s called being a pretty shit doctor.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

I was thinking about Robert Arryn. Obviously had he been fostered the plot would have gone differently, but which situation do you think would have been best for him? Tywin, Stannis, or even as Ned offers, Ned&Catelyn. I mean, *I* seriously doubt Tywin but I think Stannis might be better, given the issues between Catelyn and Lysa. & do you think Sweetrobin is sickly just by genetics/disposition or have the circumstances of his coddling by Lysa made a difference? Could he have become healthy?

Like Ned says, I’d rather entrust a child to a pit viper than Tywin Lannister. He fucks up children beyond dysfunction, and poor Sweetrobin’s got enough troubles without adding Tywin issues. Not to mention Tywin was Robert Baratheon’s idea for fostering his namesake only because Cersei suggested it, and she suggested it in order to hold Sweetrobin as a hostage in case Lysa knew anything about what Jon Arryn had been researching about her and Jaime, so it’s a terrible idea all around.

Ned and Cat might have been the best choice for fostering in a world where the plot doesn’t happen and Robert can be raised among Bran and Rickon – their athleticism and high-spiritedness would overwhelm him at first of course, but everything would probably overwhelm him at first, so. Stannis might have been best if you want a quieter environment with not many other children to focus on or deal with (just his squires and Shireen). The culture shock would probably be less than the North (well, excluding Melisandre that is), and Stannis is a knight as well as a lord, important for Robert’s future. And Stannis and Selyse are about as different from Lysa as you can get, really. (As Catelyn and most of her children share Lysa’s Tully look, that might be somewhere between disturbing and comforting to Sweetrobin.) Still, often I think Jon Arryn chose Dragonstone not for Stannis as such, but for the island’s potential in keeping a child safe in case war breaks out, which is something he was expecting to happen.

As for poor Robert’s health… it’s hard to tell. Lysa was really on the edge of Munchausen-by-proxy with him, it wasn’t just “coddling” – however, he does definitely have epilepsy (“the shaking sickness”) and the treatment for that in a medieval-type era is not particularly spectacular anyway, not to mention the stigma. Handling him firmly as Stannis would or even Ned might wouldn’t prevent the seizures from happening, nor would there be any real medicine to control them. Though hopefully Maester Pylos or Luwin would at least stop with the goddamned leeching. Not to mention not poisoning him with sweetsleep, ffs. Seriously, it’s impossible to tell if Sweetrobin is genetically weak from Jon Arryn’s old/bad sperm, or teratogenically from the effects of moon tea on Lysa’s uterus, or has just suffered from medical malpractice his entire life.

I mean, seriously, Maester Colemon, istg:

“My lord, your blood needs thinning,” said Maester Colemon. “It is the bad blood that makes you angry, and the rage that brings on the shaking.”

“His lordship’s spells have grown worse since Lady Lysa’s death. More frequent and more violent. I bleed the child as often as I dare, and mix him dreamwine and milk of the poppy to help him sleep, but…”“He sleeps twelve hours a day,” Petyr said.

“Lady Lysa would give his lordship her breast whenever he grew overwrought. Archmaester Ebrose claims that mother’s milk has many heathful properties.”

“Perhaps a pinch of sweetsleep in his milk, have you tried that? Just a pinch, to calm him and stop his wretched shaking.”“A pinch?” The apple in the maester’s throat moved up and down as he swallowed. “One small pinch… perhaps, perhaps. Not too much, and not too often, yes, I might try…”

Uggggh. The leeching, the drugging, the breast milk suggestion, that Colemon knows sweetsleep is a poison and that it’s dangerous to keep using it as a medicine, that he knew it was dangerous when Littlefinger suggested it as a treatment in the first place, that he doesn’t have the guts to stop giving it to Robert on his own volition even though the boy’s starting to show signs of toxicosis, ugh, I haaate him. Even if he did have the right idea on how to treat Jon Arryn when he was poisoned, he’s an awful maester, just awful. Any fostering that gets Sweetrobin away from him would be at least slightly better.

Anyway. Could Robert ever be healthy? Maybe, maybe not. It might be the way he’s been treated as an invalid his whole life, medically mistreated his whole life, has irreparably damaged him in addition to his condition of epilepsy. (Note also that he has “weak eyes” and is painfully thin, which suggests he may have been a premature birth.) Or it could be that not being coddled or leeched, getting exercise and fresh air, would greatly improve his health. (I think someone may have done a Secret Garden-style fanfic with him? I know there’s a lovely fanart.) Though at this time I think the best thing to help Sweetrobin would be to stop poisoning him, but y’know that’s not what Littlefinger wants to happen.

So… yeah, I don’t have the best of hopes for the poor boy. Maybe in a what-if situation his health might have improved… or maybe his untreated seizures would have eventually killed him anyway. It’s just very sad…