#milkvan analysis

[stranger-theory]

"What is.. friend?" -El Hopper

How can a girl who knows nothing about friendship be in love with a boy a week after meeting him?

"How do I know what I like?" -El Hopper

How can a girl who has no idea what it means to actually like something know she likes and is in love with a boy?

I don't even have to pull this out of my ass for it to be crazy, this literally comes from straight from the show.

[paladinhearts]

Mike’s Reactions to Certain Accusations

Thinking about season 4 M/leven argument scene again and I noticed another tiny detail. During their argument, El makes two accusations. One, that Mike sees her as a monster, and two, that Mike does not love her anymore.

Equally shocking statements from Mike’s point of view, but interestingly enough, he seems more surprised about one of them compared to the other. Spoiler alert, it wasn’t the second accusation.

When El tells Mike that he sees her as a monster too, he has an immediate response to it, going “What?” It shows in his bewildered expression too. This genuinely might be something he was never expecting her to say, especially at this point in their relationship after everything they’ve been through.

However, when she accuses him of not loving her anymore, his reaction is really….lacklustre? He pauses for a second and then goes “Wh- Who said that I didn’t?”

It’s a really strange reaction to such a heavy accusation. What makes his response really ???-worthy is his tone when he says it. He doesn’t sound surprised, confused, offended, anything. Instead he sounds like he was already half expecting this topic to come up and is ready to deflect it. Even weirder that after El tells him he never says the word to her, he immediately, and very firmly, goes “I Say It,” when clearly he doesn’t .

A more appropriate response to the initial topic would’ve been something like; “What?? What are you talking about why would you say that??” And not jumping to “who” specifically gave her that idea. It’s like he’s worried someone’s out there spreading rumours about him or something.

In my opinion, him being more surprised at the first accusation was probably due to the fact that that was a wake up call for him; he was finally realising how much his relationship with El has deteriorated even in a non-romantic sense.

Let’s compare this to the only other couple in the show who has had this exact argument; St/ancy. Even though we know that Nancy may have never loved / fell out of love with Steve, she still gets defensive.

“I was drunk Steve, I don’t remember any of that.”

- “So that makes everything that you said..it’s just what? Just bullshit too?”

“Yes!”

She’s angry, she’s offended, shes raising her voice and she’s overall just more, active? I’m not sure of the correct word but my point is that Mike was very passive during this section of their fight.

He only starts ‘arguing back’ afterwards, but even then he’s…blaming other people? Telling El he can’t let ‘these mouth breathers’ ruin them…when no one in their immediate circle except Max and Hopper ever complained about their relationship to her face, let alone Angela and co. because they didn’t even know El had a boyfriend until they saw him at the roller skating rink.

It’s just weird that he’s not defending himself and even when he starts to try to somewhat convince her, his choice of words is just really odd. His reaction feels more related to the fact that she called him out rather than the fact that she made that accusation in the first place.

And even if we do take into account all his excuses like he was scared to lose her or whatever, it still means he wasn’t being honest and communicative because obviously El had zero idea that Mike was struggling with this stuff. Why did it take her almost dying for him to finally be able to admit this stuff.

And for anyone saying “Well he was like that with Will too! His relationship with Will is bad now too!” Exactly. That’s the point. Countless people have pointed this out before but Mike can never seem to treat both Will and El nicely at the same time. When Will was missing, he was a sweetheart to El (for the most part). When El was gone, he was Will’s knight in shining armour. When he was dating El, he ignored Will. When he got into major fights with El, he made major advancements in his relationship with Will. Mike seems to fluctuate a lot, and clearly something in his dynamic with both Will and El changed for him to be acting this way, and the only major change that kind of connects all of them is the fact that Mike and El started dating. But I digress.

[lordystrange]

So let me get this straight (pun intended)

In season 1 Mike meets El in the woods. We’ve been shown other people mistaking her as a boy first, but there’s no way Mike did that. He took her home because it was love at first sight, not because he’s a caring human being and she was alone in the dark woods wearing nothing but a t-shirt in the rain.

Then he makes a plan to get his mother to deal with this in the morning. To send her back to the Pennhurst (which we now know to be a mental hospital), because it was love at first sight?

But then when he finds out she has these cool powers, he realizes she could help finding Will and he decides to keep her. Because it was love at first sight?

Then they have a few moments of understanding and a few moments of lying and fighting and it affects everyone in the party and Lucas makes the marriage comment and then the comment about Mike only liking El because she isn’t repulsed by him like most girls are. But only the marriage comment counts because it was love at first sight?

And then a few days after meeting her, right after discussing how Nancy could be El’s new sister and El asking if Mike would like her brother, Mike decides that’s the right moment to kiss her. Because it was love at first sight? And then she disappears.

Then in season 2 we see El calling for Mike in the UD. A situation parallelled to other ships like Jancy and Lumax and Byler, but unlike with those ships, the other one is not there for her. El finds her own way out with no Mike around. Because it was love at first sight?

And we saw in s1 how Mike only heard someone breathing through the radio, and even though he just saw Will’s dead body, he believed it was him and kept looking for him. But in s2 we see how Mike actually briefly sees El for a couple times and he tells Will about it, but he still doesn’t go looking for her. Even though we see him holding on to hope that she’s alive, calling for her on the radio, he doesn’t go looking for her. Because it was love at first sight?

And they are separated for almost entire season and they finally meet, Mike spends like two seconds with her and then starts raging at Hopper. Because this was not about him feeling guilty about El’s self sacrifice but instead about him being in love with her. Because it was love at first sight?

And then in season 3 they have suddenly been together like 6 months. And we didn’t get to see their journey because why would we wanna see the main couple’s first moments in a serious romantic relationship. Because it was love at first sight?

And they have been written to be this annoying couple who only make out and ignore their friends all the time. And they they have stupid, comedic fights and a break-up. And we’ve told how in these situations the boy soon comes crawling back begging for forgiveness and we do see that happening but not to El. And we also see how El doesn’t know what she likes and how Max teaches her that there’s more to life than stupid boys. Why? Because it was love at first sight?

And then shit goes down and then we have a 3 months long time skip and then suddenly El says ily to Mike and kisses him and he doesn’t kiss back but now they are back together. With no build-up to it. Because it was love at first sight?

And in season 4 we learn that Mike hasn’t been able to even write ily back to El. We learn that El wants to pretend like she’s popular to Mike because she’s insicure, and Mike tries to pretend like he’s not a nerd to El because he’s insicure. And there are fights between Mike and El because of Mike and El’s relationship AND between Mike and Will because of Mike and El’s relationship. And we keep seeing scenes with this love triangle and Mike and El’s relationship not working because they don’t understand each other. Because it was love at first sight?

And they get separated again but instead of showing us them doing some growing together or at least towards one another, we see El growing independent and Mike growing apart. Until they meet again with no kiss and clearly still not on the same page. And soon shit goes down again and we need Mike to say ily to El because that’s the only way this girl could have strength to save her bestie. Because it was love at first sight?

And then we see the monologue that’s disappointingly vague and the ilys aren’t working and Mike is pushed to do it by Will and he uses same words as Will and Eddie and he tells her it was love at first sight and we are supposed to believe him. And it doesn’t save the world, not even Max, but we are still supposed to believe him. Why?

Is this really supposed to be the main ship? The groundbreaking love story? Something unique and never-been-done-before? (Can’t argue with that tho…)

I don’t understand why people love them. Why do people love them?

Mileven shippers often say that Byler shippers only ship Byler because it’s a gay ship…

I wonder where that argument comes from. Is it possibly rooted in them only shipping Mileven because it is a straight ship?

[bylertruther]

mike, eleven + their fight and how his speech proves to her that which she already knew from the beginning

MIKE: I… I care for you… so much. EL: "Care." [Shrugs.] But you don't… you don't love me anymore? MIKE: What… Who… Who said that I didn't?

fascinating how mike's first reaction is to deflect, shift blame, and worry that there's someone doubting their true feelings.

fascinating how mike could've easily said something like "of course i do!" which gives him an out, allows him to say it without Saying It, but he doesn't. he says "who said that i didn't?" which doesn't deny her claim—and she knows this. she catches it and it marks a serious shift in this fight, because her suspicions have been confirmed.

he wonders who's putting these ideas in her head, who's managed to shatter the illusion they've built, when she's telling him very directly that he's the one making her feel like this. mike tries to deny it, but el realizes she's caught him in a lie ("el's not stupid", "she knows i'm lying", "you lie. why do you lie?") and she needs to know the truth. she needs this closure.

so, she stands up. no longer are they eye-to-eye. el has the high ground and the receipts to back up her statements. "why do you lie?"

EL: You can't even write it, Mike. [Increasingly upset:] "From Mike. "From Mike." "From Mike." "From Mike." "From." MIKE: Okay, okay! Eleven, you're being ridiculous. What, like… What is this?

again, he can't say it. not even in a cheap, cop-out kind of halfway kind of way. they're talking about romantic love, romantic feelings for someone else, and mike can't even touch that topic with a ten foot pole.

nope. instead, he says:

MIKE: You know what I think of you. You're the most incredible person in the world.

which isn't inherently romantic. at all. anyone can be incredible, friends or girlfriends alike. you know what i think of you, the kind of person that i believe you to be—not what i feel for you or the true nature of my feelings, which is what you're begging me to tell you.

eleven isn't asking him if he cares for her. she's asking him if he loves her romantically and mike still cannot say that he does.

she's asking him what he feels for her and he won't tell her.

why? because, as a certain will the wise once said, "sometimes i think it's just scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel, especially to the people you care about the most, because what if they don't like the truth?"

does that not perfectly describe mike's plight here?

he can't answer eleven's question, because he knows she won't like the answer. and if she knows that he doesn't love her the way she wants to be loved, then he worries they won't even be able to be friends anymore. because if she doesn't need him, and she doesn't want him, then how could he ever expect a literal superhero to keep him around for anything else? when he shares that he feels inferior to her and thinks he's just some loser?

he does care for her! and he likely does love her, but not the way that she's asking him to, and that's too scary of a thing to admit. it'd be better for them all if he were to rip the band-aid off, but that's scary, and hard, and painful, so he doesn't. he keeps it on. he tries to placate them both. he deflects. he tells her he cares for her, that she's incredible, a superhero—anything to get her to Not Talk About It, Think About It, Or Look At This Glaring Problem They're In.

now, i'd like to focus on the language used.

MIKE: And you can't let these mouth breathers ruin you. Ruin us. I mean, they're nobodies. And you're a superhero. EL: Not anymore.

mike and eleven have had cute, touching moments before. they could've picked any one of them for mike's "i love you" speech, but instead... they chose the moment they first met.

we already knew that mike was clinging to what their relationship once was and that he still saw her as that girl that once needed him, or at least wanted her to still need him like that, but this was the first clue: "mouth breathers."

it's such a juvenile thing to say in such a serious conversation. it encapsulates the entire fucking issue. mike is hiding behind the past, trying desperately to steer them back to that, because it's safe and comfortable and easy. but they're not those kids anymore.

el is more than just the girl that swooped in and used her powers to save his life, flip a van, and make a mouth breather pee his pants. she wants him to see her as more than that—she knows what he thinks of her, she wants to know if he feels more for her than just that hero idealization and platonic care.

and mike just can't tell her.

not then, when she's crying and pleading with him to.

not later, when she's in someone else's mind, unable to respond or be present in this moment she's been waiting for for ages, and he's prompted to by her brother to say all of the wrong things:

that he wasn't scared of her (he was, and he apologized for it),

that he's scared she won't need him anymore (she doesn't want to need anyone, she's tired of men telling her she "needs" them when she doesn't),

that he thought if he said "i love you" it would make the day she realized she didn't need him anymore hurt more (he can consider his own feelings, but not hers and how his words and lack of them have hurt her?)

"i don't know how to live without you" (a scary statement, since we shouldn't need to depend on anyone to live, el knows that better than anyone)

"and i knew right then and there, in that moment, that i loved you, and i've loved you every day since" (she heard them talk about sending her to the asylum and handing her off to his mom, they also were not in love when they were first getting to know each other as she didn't even know what a friend was)

"i love you on your bad days" (one word: rink-o-mania),

"i love you with your powers—" (yes, we know that),

"—without your powers" (is that why you could only say this once she got her powers back? if so, why do you always talk about her powers and her being a superhero when talking about love?)

"i love you for exactly who you are" ("you think i'm a monster too. [..] the way you looked at me." + el saying she went to project nina to find out who she was, proving that she didn't know this prior and if she doesn't know who she is then mike certainly doesn't either)

"you're my superhero" (el's "not anymore.")

all in all, el comes away from that with nothing new. he hasn't told her anything he didn't say the first time. if anything, he's doubled down and proven to her that he wasn't actually listening, and that he's certainly not her heart.

fascinating how mike and eleven's season four journey starts with a lie, mike hiding, el telling him he doesn't love her anymore, mike asking her who said that he didn't, and then him saying in fifty different ways just how much he doesn't. not like that. not like she wants him to, as the cast themselves have told us, too.

really, really fascinating.

[sandinmybed]

Passive vs Active Mike analysis: El is going to have to be the one who dumps Mike.

I’ve been having a discussion with some twitter mutuals and we’ve drawn this conclusion, I thought i’d share it with you guys

Mike is very passive in their relationship. In s1, he calls El pretty and kisses her, but that’s the only times he advances their relationship intentionally himself. In s3 they spend a lot of time kissing, but think about that awkward makeout scene - Mike pulls away to sing at her. Mike keeps pulling her hands down away from his face. When they ditch the Party at weathertop, El is the one who says they have to go home.  Later in s3, El is the one who dumps him, and he’s pissed off, but he just takes it. He shows no clear desire to get her to take him back (unlike Lucas, who’s pretty concerned with getting the olive branch from Max.) And then the contrast to his fight with Will that we’re all so familiar with - Mike fights with El, gets dumped, he takes it. Mike fights with Will, Will runs off, Mike actively chases after him through pouring rain to apologise and beg him for forgiveness. 

In the S3 end scene where El comes up and kisses him, he just stands there. They don’t talk about getting back together. Mike doesn’t visibly reciprocate in any way, doesn’t even smile. He is passive, he just sort of lets it happen. He even sort of blocks her from kissing him when they’re all hugging as the Byers leave. When Will comes up to him to dump his DnD books, Mike is active, he asks the question to confirm their standing with one another - "What if you wanna join another party?" - and is happy with Will's response.

Another example of Mike's passivity in their relationship is the way Mike takes very little responsibility for their problems. For example, treating El “like garbage/like a pet” in her words, during their relationship in s3. When he lies to her and tries to apologise, he has no idea what he's doing and lets Lucas lead him. The few efforts he does make towards getting her back are supported heavily by Lucas, in fact. When she dumps him at the mall, he's like okay, whatever, no girlfriend then. But when he’s a dick to Will? Instant regret as soon as he realises he's gone too far, he doesn't wait around trying to analyse the situation, he's right out the door and he goes full on grovelling hands-and-knees begging to apologise.

In S4 the same thing happens - he pisses off El, can’t say her loves her, but instead of accepting that responsibility, he denies it and says he does say it (clear lie) and that El’s being ridiculous. When he pisses off Will, he’s straight in there to take responsibility for ignoring Will, he says Will didn’t deserve the bad treatment (and honestly, Will’s not even fully innocent either if you wanna get into that lol). He even apologises going back months and months. He’s passive with El, allowing her to yell at him and makes no real effort to defend himself or fix it. With Will, he’s active - he makes the move to apologise and reconnect.

Excluding their kiss in s1, every time Mike takes initiative and is active in their relationship, it’s never a romantic action. When he’s giving her shelter and food, when he’s calling her every day trying to find her (after she vanished in front of him) and when he and the Byers go on the road trip to find her, none of that is inherently romantic. The one time he says he loves her, she isn't even present, but Mike is desperate not to lose her/for El not to get hurt by their plan. Mike is active when it comes to protecting her.

The one active step he does take in their relationship is the monologue, but is that actually active? He's pretty much constantly being told by other people that being with El is the "right" thing to do - Nancy in s1/2 assumes he's into her, Lucas in s3 tries to help fix their relationship, just like Will in s4. Mike has been led to believe by Will that this will save their relationship, and he has an immense amount of trust in Will, so he follows what he thinks is right and tells her he loves her, because he's afraid she will literally die if he doesn't.

This is why I think El is going to have to be the one who officially dumps him. Mike never takes the initiative in their relationship. He didn't want to talk to her about getting back together in s3, and he didn't want to acknowledge their issues in s4 either. I've seen plenty of people (myself included) who believe that during the scene in Surfer Boy Pizza, El was going to officially break up with him. They got interrupted, and then it was too late.

But starting with s5, we've got the painting lie, and we've got Hopper back, and Mike is back on good terms with Will. El isn't talking to him, and they're dealing with the apocalypse, and it's strongly implied that El knows he was lying to her. I think El's going to dump him in s5, and he's going to ask about the painting, which she knows nothing about. I think that's going to happen fairly early on in the season, maybe even before the time skip, and be the catalyst for a lot of changes (and hopefully some more personal growth for both of them!) But Mike will not take that step himself.

[tal-vez-o-quizas]

I was checking this video on YouTube about Finn titled:

Millie didn't actually call Finn that, but guess what?

People are seeing the light with Milkvan; look at this:

"Why did this show focus so much on these kids making out?"

Oh, I don't know, maybe to parallel them to St*ncy, who also had big making out scenes that ultimately led to their breakup?

"... now I'm 18 thinking it's a bit odd. But as a kid I thought it was goals".

Would you look at that!

That's exactly how most people feel with Milkvan after ST4 as well: tired of their antics and admitting that they are not a match anymore.

Slowly but surely, people is seeing the light.

[hessolivagant]

Random thoughts that prove mike wheeler is probably gay and that el doesn’t need him + love triangle imagery

I’m gonna admit it, i am very much a mike wheeler defender but i will slander him this once, he’s being shitty like any teenager would that would be going through trauma. But the thing about mike is that he’s a character and when characters hit low points usually they have internal conflict which leads to further character development.

Mikes internal conflict is his internalized homophobia, that’s what changed his character in s3. He realized something in s2 and in s3 he used el to seem like he’s not gay. He pushed everyone away stated by will in the rain fight. He was so focused on being something he was not because he internally feared his feelings for will. We see him realize these feelings at the end of s3 and to why he was so conflicted during the kiss scene. This relationship between el and mike is called a “beard” a beard is when a queer person uses someone of the opposite sex to appeal straight. That is EXACTLY what m*leven is. El loves mike(probably) but mike does not love eleven. We see this with nancy in s1-2, she can’t say i love you to steve because she simply doesn’t love him. It’s as simple as that. Stancy and milkvan are paralleled to eachother, and many platonic relationships or failed relationships are paralleled with m*lkvan.

I don’t like mileven as i think it’s unhealthy, it makes me sad to see them like that. And seeing how much better they do without each other is better. Milkvan being endgame would make mike the shittiest character written(sorry not sorry) and elevens whole thing with max, and learning about herself and to be independent was a useless arc. And I don’t like the whole idealization mike has for el, el seems to dislike it when she’s compared to a superhero. I don’t know how mike, gaslighting, shifting blame onto el while she’s sobbing is healthy. Even mike said “it’s a fight that you can’t come back from”

In the pizza place, I’m sure mike and el were going to have a mutual breakup before getting interrupted by argyle. After that during the scene where mike is trying to save el, he feels pressured to say i love you to el. I don’t know why someone would struggle to say that especially when they’re in a life or death situation, clearly el doesn’t believe his bs, the vines got tighter around her neck showing weakness, there’s also lighting in the background. It’s when she looks at max, that’s when she gets the power to fight. Not mikes cringe ass speech.

Overall the scene was just sad, I didn’t see anything romantic in that scene, I honestly saw more Byler potential within a “m*leven” scene. It was just sad. Also when mike said i love you, will was in the back. This may mean something. Maybe that will was in the back of his head when he said that. A lot of his speech had will in the back, usually in heart to hearts or confessions, it’s only the two, only their faces. Focused on them and only them. Which this could be love triangle imagery, which is seen a lot in s4 with will, el and mike. Like when el and mike reunited, will is in the middle of them. Also both will snd mike and the same body language with el, which shows that mike and el are platonic:)

Rahh I’m done ranting, bye <3

[lordystrange]

Let’s break down good and bad arguments for Midleven

Let’s start with the bad ones

1. They are in love so they’re not gonna break up

There is literally no proof of them being in love. Loving each other platonically? Yes. But romantically no. (Also, even couples who are in love sometimes have to break up if they’re incompatible)

2. They won’t break up a straight couple for a gay one

Well, first time for everything.

3. Milkvan is the main ship! People who have been shipping them since season 1 would get so mad.

First, it’s not the main ship, at least not anymore. Lately Netflix has promoted Lumax and Jopper. Second, there are also bylers who have shipped their ship since season 1. Third, most of the GA would get mad if s5 continues forcefeeding us a ”main ship” that has no chemistry.

4. Mike is straight and in love with Eleven.

Couldn’t he also be bi and in love with El? Well, he could, but if he was confirmed bi, everyone would see who he’s actually in love with (Will).

5. El would be sad if Mike left her for Will

Mike isn’t leaving her for Will. They are gonna break up and then he’s gonna pursue a relationship with Will. Also, wouldn’t Will be sad if Mike just no-homoed him?

6. It would be misogynistic and ableist if they didn’t make Eleven end up with Mike.

It would be misogynistic and ableist to force her to stay in a relationship where she’s not happy in, just for her to become a normal american girl who gets married at 18 and makes babies for her husband without whom she couldn’t live.

7. They wouldn’t leave the main character end up single in the last season.

I know, that’s why Will will get to be with Mike. (Hahaha also yes they would, because they are showing us that it’s better to be single than stay in an unhappy relationship)

8. Mike is in love with El and him saying it 9 times in the monologue is the proof!

So we’re just supposed to ignore their fight about it earlier, where Mike called El ridiculous? And all the lies in the monologue? And how El didn’t actually like what she heard? And the fact that even if Mike was in love with El, it doesn’t mean that El is in love with Mike.

9. Mike and El were in good terms in the end of s4.

No they weren’t watch the show

10. There wouldn’t be enough time for byler to develop in s5 so milkman endgame.

All byler needs now is a few longing glances from Mike, the painting discussion, love confessions and kiss. If they were to make Milkvan a functioning couple, they would need at least 3 more seasons.

And now, for the actually good arguments for midleven:

Oh right there is none my bad.