The Order of the Stick: thoughts on stats in 5th Edition
I got into the self-aware stick-figure fantasy webcomic The Order of the Stick recently, as an offshoot of my interest in Dungeons & Dragons in general -- it's extremely well-crafted in plot, worldbuilding and characterisation, and is very accessible even without being completely au fait with the 3.5 edition mechanics on which the comic's world runs. Definitely worth checking out (first comic is here) -- enjoy!
Aaaaaanyway!
One of the interesting aspects of the comic is that the main characters have builds that're fairly poorly optimised (certainly from the perspective of tabletop D&D), sometimes hilariously so, but still manage to be very effective in combination. Now, I'm mainly used to Fifth Edition (pre-2024) mechanics, which are a lot less complicated than 3.5e mechanics (I tried to read the 3.5e Player's Handbook and went cross-eyed from overload very quickly), which got me thinking -- how would the Order's builds translate into 5e? My thoughts are below!
Spoilers abound, because it'd be difficult to make the discussion remotely coherent otherwise XD
Regarding 5e-style stat allocations, backgrounds and feats, I'll be leaning mainly on the 2014 PHB, via 2014.5e.tools. I'll also be leaning fairly heavily on the most recent Class and Level Geekery thread on the Giant in the Playground forum for general guidelines on character levels, stats, proficiencies, feats etc where necessary.
Tally ho!
Caution: LONG post!
Roy Greenhilt
Single-class human 14th-level Fighter for sure, as in the main comic. (with a caveat or two, see below)
As for Background, I'd say either Folk Hero or a custom thing -- maybe a Soldier/Sage hybrid, since he studied at Fighter College and took some fairly varied electives?
The most likely subclass would be Battle Master, I think, given that Roy's the leader of the Order and has a tendency towards creative tactics (which serves to showcase his high INT even if that stat doesn't directly power his moves). The Battle Master's maneuver (yes, tumblr spellcheck, that is indeed the spelling used in the PHB) options gel really well with this -- Commander's Strike, Rally and Tactical Assessment to start off with, perhaps? And according to the Class and Level thread linked above, Roy's at least 14th level, which gives four more maneuvers (two at 7th level and two at 10th level) -- Disarming Attack, Distracting Strike, Commanding Presence and either Brace or Grappling Strike?
Great Weapon Fighting for the fighting style, for sure -- comic!Roy is heavily geared towards using greatswords, to the exclusion of a great deal else (in the early arc where he's using a greatclub while seeking the means to repair his broken sword, he's way less effective in combat).
Feats -- Great Weapon Master, obviously! Mage Slayer seems like the closest equivalent in 5e to the Spellsplinter technique, while Grappler reflects his canonical Improved Grapple feat. As for the final feat (14th-level Fighter in 5e means 4 opportunities for Ability Score Improvement or taking a feat), I'm inclined to go with Inspiring Leader given how well it matches up with Roy's leadership of the Order -- especially once character development kicks in and he learns to trust his teammates' ideas and perspectives more. There's also a fun bit of irony with the Order's somewhat intermittent success with inspiring speeches :D Tavern Brawler is also an option, given Roy's canon access to Improved Unarmed Strike.
Capturing the summon-to-hand effect Roy gets with his greatsword once it becomes a Weapon of Legacy would probably require a somewhat lore-breaking multiclass into a spellcasting class (dip into Blade Pact Warlock?) or an equally lore-breaking shift to Eldritch Knight Fighter. Given Roy's legitimate backstory reasons to want to avoid being a spellcaster, a homebrewed feat/weapon enchantment or very merciful DM might be necessary instead.
Skill proficiencies: Intimidation, Arcana, Medicine, Animal Handling (goats) (not a joke, in an early strip Roy admits to taking a goat-herding class because it seemed like an easy A!), possibly Athletics? (to reflect his canon Jump skill)
Stats: Roy's something of an all-rounder as far as stats go, not having an obvious dump stat, and none of them are super-low, so assuming he rolled well on character creation: STR 18 (19 inc. Tavern Brawler, 23 with Belt of Frost Giant Strength -- 29 with Belt of Storm Giant Strength if you want to match the comic precisely in terms of numbers.) DEX 13 CON This is a tricky one -- the Class and Level thread says 12+, to account for Roy's having at least 151 hit points, but under 5e rules, Roy'd need 20-22 CON to even get close to that total, which is very unlikely for a 14th-level Fighter. I'm inclined to split the difference and say CON 17 for 5e Roy, since that's plausibly reachable right from the off for a PC who's lucky in their initial stat rolls. INT Let's say 15 here, since Roy's pretty intelligent, but less so than Vaarsuvius. WIS 14 Good enough, as noted by the Bureaucratic Deva doing Roy's Lawful Good afterlife intake assessment, to make Cleric a plausible class option. CHA 12 For the most part, I see no real reason to differ from the Class and Level thread for Roy's hypothetical 5e stat spread.
Haley Starshine
Human Rogue, Thief subclass! Which is pretty much Haley's canon class anyway -- 16th-level, going by the Class and Level thread, and I see no reason to dispute that.
Criminal Background -- another no-brainer there, given Haley's history with the Greysky City Thieves' Guild :D
Feats are a bit of an interesting one -- there's no 5e equivalent of the legendarily rubbish Manyshot feat so far as I can tell, and 'Use Magic Device' is a 13th-level subclass feature for Thief Rogues, so no need to spend a feat on that... 'Uncanny Dodge' is a standard 5th-level Rogue feature, which handily replaces any 3.5e dodging/evasion-related feats. Weapon Master would easily account for Haley's favouring longbows as a weapon despite the basic ranged weapon proficiencies for Rogues being shortbows and hand crossbows. Sharpshooter covers the variety of ranged-attack-improving feats she has in the comic. Observant and Alert work for characterisation/flavour purposes, given Haley's backstory and initial raging paranoia, and to round it all out, Dungeon Delver meshes very well with Haley being the Order's resident trap-wrangling expert.
Skill proficiencies: thieves' tools are a given! Expertise in Stealth, Deception (our girl canonically has a colossal-to-ludicrous Bluff skill, and throw in a potion of glibness to get one of the funniest parts of the 'Blood Runs In The Family' arc :D Hehehe) and Sleight of Hand are also pretty obvious. Arcana proficiency is also canon, as a prerequisite for Haley being able to handle magical traps. For the last one, I'm strongly inclined to say Insight, since for all her paranoia, Haley can be damn good at getting a read on people (e.g. when the Linear Guild first showed up and she immediately pegged them as Bad News).
Stats: CON and WIS are pretty clear dump stats (slightly less so the latter). Again, I don't see a huge amount of conflict with the stats deduced for canon!Haley in the Class and Level thread, so I'd propose that 5e!Haley's stat spread is something akin to the following: STR 15 DEX 20 (including the +1 bonus from the Weapon Master feat) CON 10 -- better than Vaarsuvius, but still offering negligible bonuses to hit points or saving throws against drunkenness and so on. INT 12 Haley's not stupid by any means, and I see no reason to have a hypothetical 5e version use Intelligence as a dump stat just because 5e Rogue abilities don't scale off Intelligence unless you're an Arcane Trickster. WIS 11 or 12 (including the +1 bonus from the Observant feat) Less of a dump stat than Constitution, and Haley seems to have been getting better on the Wisdom front as her character development progresses (especially where Wisdom relates to emotional processing and suchlike). CHA The Class and Level thread gives a range of 12-19, so I'll do another split-the-difference and put 5e!Haley at 16 for Charisma, for the decently sized proficiency bonus for all those Deception checks :D
Durkon Thundershield
Ah, our very favourite nigh-impenetrably-accented 13th-level Cleric of Thor! Tempest Domain, naturally, though with a build more strongly leaning towards standard-issue Life-Domain-style healbot, as in the comic canon.
Durkon'd pretty clearly count as a Mountain Dwarf under 5e rules, which makes sense given that he, y'know, comes from a literal mountain stronghold! Ah, that sweet, sweet racial bonus to STR and CON ^_^
Acolyte background, of course -- given the extensive training Durkon went through in order to become a Cleric in the first place, there's no other option that makes sense! Which is ironic -- the Acolyte background comes with proficiency in Insight and Religion, two areas in which Durkon falls down somewhat, at least early on (see, for example, strip no. 52); the vampire/high priest of Hel arc indicates that he's gotten better on this front (to AWESOME effect! The big memory-dump splash panel is one of my favourite bits :D)
Feats are something of a wrinkle -- Durkon doesn't seem to have all that many in the comic. His hypothetical 5e build would need Weapon Master at the very least, because while 5e!Durkon'd start out with warhammer proficiency from being a Mountain Dwarf (and Durkon does use a warhammer early on), the Hammer of Thunderbolts he later gains is classed by the 2014 DMG as a maul; this is a martial weapon for which Dwarfs and Clerics do not automatically get proficiency, necessitating a feat in order to gain such. The 'Utterly Dwarfed' arc, going by the Class and Level thread, indicates that Durkon has the 3.5e Leadership feat, so 5e's Inspiring Leader is a decent possibility but for the fact that Charisma is Durkon's dump stat. I'm wildly guessing at this point -- maybe Healer? Or plain ol' Ability Score Improvement to get that maxed-out Wisdom score. And he'd need Heavily Armored, too, to gain heavy armour proficiency and account for the fact that he wears plate armour without impeding his spellcasting.
Skill proficiencies: Religion and Insight from the Acolyte background, as stated above. Medicine is another obvious one, given that Durkon is the Order's primary healer. I'd go for Persuasion for the last skill, given the aforementioned 'talking a vampire into nonexistence' thing :D (Was that a Nat 20 or was that a Nat 20?????) I'm half-inclined to suggest a specific application of Performance as well, since Durkon credits Elan for teaching him how to construct a narrative rather than simply reciting legends -- something that was key to his victory over the vampire.
Stats: There's a certain amount of magic item influence here, specifically from the Belt of Giant Strength and Gauntlets of Ogre Power that Durkon needs in order to use the aforementioned Hammer of Thunderbolts. Therefore: STR 25 -- The Hammer of Thunderbolts doesn't specify a type of Belt of Giant Strength needed to wield it, and the comic does not (so far as I can remember) indicate which type of belt Durkon has, so for the sake of simplicity I'll say it's a Belt of Hill Giant Strength, which sets his STR to 21 (the upper bound for this stat suggested by the Class and Level thread). Add the +4 bonus from the Hammer of Thunderbolts and you get 25 points of enemy-smooshing goodness! :D DEX 10 Doesn't seem to be exceptionally awful with this stat, at least. CON at least 12, including the +2 Mountain Dwarf bonus -- Durkon's pretty sturdy overall. INT This stat isn't mentioned in the Class and Level thread, but I'd say 10 at minimum. Not too high, though, considering the early encounter with a mind flayer who assessed Durkon's brain as filling but bland. WIS 20 Grounded, emotionally intelligent and a fiercely strong will -- Durkon in a nutshell ^^ Assuming, of course, that one treats 3.5e Will saves as being equivalent to 5e Wisdom saves rather than Charisma saves - both stats seem to relate to willpower, albeit in different ways. CHA 8 -- dump stat, like I said earlier ^_^
Vaarsuvius
Ah, everybody's favourite purple-haired 16th-level Evocation Wizard, with the magnificently sesquipedalian vocabulary, strong affinity for blowing things up and tendency to be something of an egomaniac about the superiority of arcane power over all else (at least until That Decision really bites them on the arse... IYKYK)! It's worth noting that V would technically be a bit more powerful, or at the very least more versatile, under 5e rules; choosing a specific Wizard school in 5e doesn't require barring oneself from learning spells belonging to two other schools. Therefore, 5e!Vaarsuvius would be able to learn and scribe Conjuration and Necromancy spells to their spellbook with impunity (time and gp cost permitting) -- depending on whether the update to 5e takes place before or after the whole business with the IFCC and the attendant character development, this could make them much more versatile a teammate or simply REALLY FUCKING TERRIFYING! (or both) Ehehehe... The Evocation school's 'Sculpt Spell' feature would also be *very* handy, especially for avoiding something like what happens at the end of 'On The Origin of PCs'. There's a certain irony, I feel, in Evocation being a much better way to Wizard in 5e than in 3.5e... The flipside, of course, is that 5e Wizards are more restricted in the number of spells they can prepare per day compared to 3.5e (so far as I can tell), which means that something like V's fight with Laurin Shattersmith would probably play out mostly the same way under 5e as it did in the comic, but V would have to adjust their calm-yet-intimidating statement of remaining magical reserves that causes Laurin to flee.
High Elf, as previously stated -- I'd say mage hand for the racial cantrip, to account for all the 'Bugsby's [verbing] Hand' spells V likes to use (I love the sheer specificity of some of them, like 'Bugsby's Cat-Retrieving Hand'' (the most important one of the lot, to my cat-loving mind!)).
Sage background is obvious, given V's canonical pursuit of arcane study to the exclusion of pretty much everything else.
Feats are an interesting matter -- at 16th level, V'd've had the opportunity to take up to four. Looking at their feat list on the Class and Level thread, the only two 5e possibilities that immediately jump out at me are Alert (to match the 3.5e Alertness feat) and Metamagic Adept (to account for Empower/Extend/Quicken Spell from comic canon -- to a somewhat limited extent, given that the 5e feat only provides 2 sorcery points to use on metamagic, full stop). I suppose Elemental Adept is a possibility, because it seems reasonably in-character for V to want their offensive spells to do as much damage as they can (though this comes dangerously close to making V well-optimized [gasp] which is fairly lore-breaking for the Order! XD). Otherwise, V'd probably go for Ability Score Improvement to bump up their Intelligence to the max.
Skill proficiencies: The Sage background grants Arcana and History, and High Elves get Perception; Investigation seems like a reasonable choice to round things out, being an Intelligence-based skill, though Medicine might also work as a reflection of 3.5e's Craft:Alchemy (though this only comes up once in an early strip, iirc).
Stats: Hooo boy! Vaarsuvius is the absolute master (gender neutral) of the dump stat, bless 'em :) Therefore: STR 8 -- Quoth Vaarsuvius, "Well, I'm terribly sorry I spent my extensive lifespan unlocking the means to unravel the universe and reshape it according to my will rather than, say, jogging. It has a tendency to leave one relatively fragile." (strip #107) DEX 10 -- (including the +2 High Elf bonus) Ranged spell attacks in 5e scale their accuracy off the spellcasting ability used, so far as I understand it, so technically V shouldn't whiff their ranged spells in 5e nearly as often as they do in the comic (which is the basis for assuming low DEX). However, if V wants to dump every stat other than Intelligence, who am I to disagree? CON 8 -- the squishiest of Wizards! (see quote above) Slightly less squish under 5e rules, having d6 for Hit Dice rather than d4, but still... INT I'm torn here -- do we go for 20 here (the maximum possible stat value for a player character under normal circumstances) via Ability Score Improvement and the High Elf +1 bonus, or free up some feat slots and go for 19 with V's canon Headband of Intellect? Oh, decisions, decisions! WIS 10 -- average at best, but definitely improves a tad after the soul splice/Familicide debacle and the ensuing Consequences and character development (and trauma). CHA 8 -- Given V's arrogance, (initial) egomania and generally dreadful people skills, do we expect anything else? (affectionate)
Belkar Bitterleaf
And here we find the most evil and murdery halfling around! Belkar's build is bananacrackers -- the Class and Level thread gives his overall level as 15 (Ranger 14/Barbarian 1) which is... only marginally better under 5e rules than 3.5e, because 5e has no restrictions or penalties for certain races choosing certain classes.
The Belkster only took a one-level Barbarian dip to get the most basic form of Rage, so subclass isn't a relevant proposition. The most likely Ranger subclass for him would be Beast Master, considering his acquisition of animal companions/somewhat literal morality pets -- and as luck would have it, Mr Scruffy fits the bill perfectly! (Ordinary cat, CR 0 -- maximum Challenge Rating for a Ranger's animal companion is 1/4). This almost certainly wasn't something Belkar would've planned from the off, though, regardless of edition -- he canonically only became a Ranger because of the easy access to dual-wielding (which appears in 5e as the Two-Weapon Fighting fighting style), despite halflings having a Strength penalty in 3.5e.
I'm inclined to say that 5e!Belkar would be a Lightfoot Halfling, because the Naturally Stealthy trait gels pretty well with his criminal tendencies.
Does any background other than Criminal make sense for a diminutive stab-happy murderhobo who proudly calls himself 'Death's Little Helper'?? :D
Belkar has an interesting collection of feats, to be sure -- Chef matches up perfectly with his canon ranks in Profession: Gourmet Chef, Dual Wielder works very well with his focus on dual-wielded stabby melee death, and Athlete would seem to cover his predilection for jumping around the battlefield like a pointy pinball of death, though Savage Attacker is a very character-appropriate alternative!
Skill proficiencies: Deception and Stealth from his criminal background, Athletics or possibly Acrobatics for the above-mentioned pointy pinballness, Animal Handling (Mr Scruffy, Bloodfeast the Extreme-inator) and finally... I'd go for Insight. Which might seem surprising, but when Belkar stops thinking about his next bout of violence for five seconds, he can actually pick up on a lot of stuff very quickly (atrocious Wisdom score or no) -- see, for example, working out how to protect the Order from the explosion of Girard's Gate on the fly, or seeing Nose-fur-atu for an evil imposter immediately, or knowing exactly which cruel-to-be-kind buttons to press to stop Roy giving up from grief.
Stats: *giggling madly* What sort of Ranger would dump their primary spellcasting stat? This sort of Ranger! STR 17, per the upper end of the range estimated in the Class and Level thread -- jump distance in 5e is determined by Strength, and as mentioned, Belkar loves jumping at people with knives out. DEX 14, which works well for Belkar's pinball-of-death tactic. CON 11, including the +1 boost from the Chef feat -- so far as I recall, Belkar isn't shown to be significantly more or less durable than the other members of the Order. INT 10, because the stuff I pointed out above to support Insight as a skill proficiency bespeaks a not-too-dreadful Intelligence, for all that Insight checks usually use the Wisdom stat. WIS 8 -- Rangers are Wisdom casters, but Belkar only cares about stabbing things a lot. While he wouldn't be outright barred from spellcasting under 5e rules, his spell save DC and general magical effectiveness would be hilariously low. CHA 9, but only because of the +1 from being a Lightfoot Halfling -- he's a massive nigh-sociopathic jerk, after all!
Elan
Oh, Elan, most lovable and spooniest of bards! (In the sense of that memetically odd translation from Final Fantasy 4 -- TVTropes calls it 'Quirky Bard' these days. There's probably AU fanfiction out there with Elan as the chronic-illness kind of spoonie as well, which would be pretty interesting to read -- recommendations in the comments?) The only member of the Order with an actually good/well-optimised build, because both his Bardic shenanigans and Dashing Swordsman prestige class use his massive Charisma stat. Given the multiclassing and 3.5e's rules for character levels vs caster levels and suchlike, I'm not sure what Elan's 5e character level would be. Taking some cues from the Class and Level thread, I'll go for 14 levels in Bard as the base class, which leaves room for multiple levels of multiclassing for the prestige class, without massively outstripping the other members of the Order in terms of character level.
Bard is Elan's base class, and given his immense genre savviness and strong awareness of narrative tropes and structure, the College of Lore subclass is pretty much a given! His canon level in Dashing Swordsman is where it gets tricky, because 5e doesn't have prestige classes. The essential traits of Dashing Swordsman are: 1) the ability to use one's Charisma modifier for melee attack rolls and damage rolls instead of Strength or Dexterity (depending on weapon; Elan uses rapiers for melee fighting), provided one makes a pun when attacking with a rapier. 2) Immunity to piercing damage from broken glass (essential for making dramatic entrances). 3) The ability to sense where one needs to be to save the day, and to dramatically arrive there in the nick of time. The last two points are best left up to roleplaying and the mercy of the DM. The first is what makes the class, and so far I've thought of two ways to cover it: 1) Multiclassing one level into Hexblade Warlock, which grants the Hex Warrior trait -- this accounts for the 'Charisma modifier for attack and damage rolls' -- and three levels into Rogue, very specifically the Swashbuckler subclass. This has the right kind of roleplaying flavour for Dashing Swordsman, and the Rakish Audacity class trait adding one's Charisma modifier to one's initiative rolls at least somewhat covers the nick-of-time arrivals. Elan has the stats to pull this off -- he meets the minimum multiclassing requirements for both Rogue and Warlock -- but the Hexblade bit in particular feels kinda lore-breaking. 2) Condensing the 'Charisma for attack and damage' and 'broken glass' immunity traits into a feat, and having Elan as a 16th-level single-class Lore Bard (which matches his likely caster level, as determined in the Class and Level thread) leaving the dramatic nick-of-time sense up to roleplaying and the mercy of the DM.
Entertainer background, for sure! It makes an enormous amount of sense given Elan's love of stories and awareness of story structure and suchlike. It also covers stuff like writing a five-act rock opera for Roy after the latter's resurrection (strange but sweet!).
Feats: Elan doesn't seem to have too many, going by the Class and Level thread, and the 3.5e feats he does have don't seem to match up well with any 5e feats; therefore, I'm going on vibes and giving him Actor and Skill Expert (for Medicine proficiency, when he starts learning healing techniques post-Therkla). Otherwise, a round or two of Ability Score Improvement to account for his character development bumping up his Wisdom and (possibly) Intelligence a bit.
Skill proficiencies: Instrument proficiency with a lute is pretty obvious. Skills are harder to determine, though, because even at a minimum Lore Bard level of 14, 5e!Elan would have too many skill proficiencies (seriously, 5e gave Bards a HUGE power boost!) compared to canon! Taking it from the top, and trying to keep to canon: Acrobatics and Performance (Expertise) from Entertainer, Medicine from Skill Expert, Animal Handling (he's very good at riding a horse, since he worked as the herald for a travelling paladin before joining the Order), Persuasion, Intimidation (remember when he convinced a goblin in Dorukan's Dungeon to help out by threatening to cry like a toddler?) and Insight (post-character-development, he gets better at figuring various things out and seeing through bullshit like that of his father). History and Religion are at least plausible, as well (despite drawing from Intelligence, his dump stat), partly because of Banjo the god/puppet, and partly because they'd actually work fairly well with Elan's awareness of story tropes and narrative structure.
Stats: pretty straightforward, really. STR 10 -- Elan seems to be pretty average in this regard. DEX 13, at least -- 13 Dexterity is the minimum stat needed for multiclassing into Rogue if that's how you're doing Dashing Swordsman (see above), and it gels well with Elan being fairly good at evasion, having two feats in comic canon to that effect. CON 10 -- again, Elan doesn't seem to be too remarkable or unremarkable as far as Constitution goes. INT 8 -- not for nothing does Roy call Elan, "dumb as a box of mouldy carrots!" in the prequel! WIS 10 -- unremarkable, but definitely better than it was previously. CHA 20 -- the absolute maximum a player character can achieve under normal circumstances, and by the gods, Elan makes it WORK! Ah, that sweet, sweet +5 modifier to all Charisma checks and saves...
In conclusion, the Order of the Stick can have their builds translated into 5e fairly easily, and they may even turn out a bit stronger than in canon! This post was written under the assumption that the hypothetical 5e builds would be used for the tabletop version of the game; however, the builds given above should transfer reasonably well to Baldur's Gate 3, mutatis mutandis for the point-buy stat assignment method, level cap and more limited feat selection. The two big wrinkles with this are Elan and Durkon. Capturing the Dashing Swordsman subclass in BG3 would necessitate going Lore Bard 8/Hexblade 1/Swashbuckler 3, missing out on a potentially valuable feat. Durkon, meanwhile, would be unable to take Tempest Domain without seriously breaking the lore -- the only player-selectable deities in BG3 that offer the Tempest Domain are thoroughly Evil-aligned, and Thor isn't selectable at all. I suppose a decent compromise would be a primarily-healbot build with the War Domain under Tyr, who is at least in the right pantheon. (All of this is assuming an unmodded game. Luckily, one shouldn't need much more than a six-member-party mod and maybe some cosmetic/clothing stuff as a minimum for an OotS run.)
Seriously, though, what is BG3's Photo Mode even for if you can't slaughter the Goblin Camp, pile up the bodies and replicate this epic moment?!?:
The Order of the Stick is (c) Rich 'The Giant' Burlew
