#pro spuffy

[darklinaforever]

People who demonize Spike and adore Angel... I see you as idiots.

Spike, soulless, tried to improve himself before going off the rails again (by trying to SA Buffy, a clearly out-of-character scene we owe to Joss Weden who had a problem with Spike's character) and immediately decided it wasn't possible and therefore did everything he could to get his soul back on his own.

Angel, when he didn't have a soul, never made any effort? He was even a much worse monster than Spike. And he only got his soul back because he was cursed?

The difference is that a soulless Spike still had an undeniable form of humanity from the moment he became a vampire. Something quite unique

Except Angel didn't. He never did.

And once Spike got his soul back, he is a great guy, maybe even better than Angel because at least he had honesty instead of the hypocrisy that Angel could sometimes display.

And I say this even though I really like Angel. And I'm not denying that Angel fought his own battle for redemption. But it was because of the spell, because as soon as he regained his soul, he was consumed by guilt. He regained his soul and sought redemption because of it. He didn't regain his soul through his own efforts.

Also, people who try to say that Angel is evil solely because of the spell and the Angelus aspect have completely misunderstood the character and how a vampire functions in this universe.

Spike fought for his soul. Angel didn't.

[greensaplinggrace]

the fact of the matter is that buffy ends up isolated no matter what the scoobies do because she bears the burden of the slayer alone at the end of the day and nothing can change that. the problem with this isn't that she's separate from them, it's that they don't want to acknowledge that she is, and in doing so they drive a wedge between them that just grows and grows. the best thing about spike is that he's similar enough to this other side of buffy to understand it and her by extension. he is the only person around who can support that side of her.

most of buffy's issues in season six stem from the scoobies rejecting a part of buffy that spike accepts. and this shame she feels for her reliance on spike and the presence of this darkness and isolation she cannot avoid is largely because of them. i'm sick of this bizarre assumption that pointing out where the scoobies go wrong in their relationship with buffy somehow equals an uncritical uplifting of spike. just because he understands her and represents a certain aspect of her doesn't mean he doesn't fuck up. i mean that's kind of the whole point of their season six dynamic. one of his biggest issues is that he thinks he's helping her by enabling her completely because he doesn't have the ability to properly identify the line between self acceptance and self destruction - pursuit of the id is one of his biggest character traits. that's what makes the end of season six and his decision to get the soul so interesting (although of course there's just as much i can say about the narrative framing of that in regards to lore consistency and the story's obsession with angel, but that's a whole other thing).

point is, the scoobies cannot understand all of buffy, and when they refuse to acknowledge this they destroy their chances of building any bridges to even a simple relationship with that other side of buffy or helping her carry that burden in any way. meanwhile, spike is in the proper position to understand buffy as the slayer and hold his own with her in such a way, but his definition of love is wholly obsessive and destructive. while i disagree that he's incapable of love and even of loving selflessly without his soul, i think spike's version of love in particular is self destructive in a way that enables buffy's own desire to hurt herself through hurting him (see the aforementioned shame regarding her shadow self). spike cannot identify why allowing buffy to give in to her dark side in such a way is bad because he struggles to understand how she could use this to resent herself - although i do think he realizes it's happening on some level.

spike is also buffy's only form of catharsis and the only one that actually listens to what she is saying during a time when everybody else is dismissing her because of the aforementioned inability to understand her as the slayer. it's a clusterfuck - and a clusterfuck that needed to be shattered with a hammer for any kind of relief. and quite frankly to disregard the scoobies' own part in this situation does a disservice to buffy as a character. to be honest, she deserves fucking better than what everyone in her life gives her, especially the scoobies, who grow to take her for granted and feel entitled to controlling her life as a way of keeping her conformed - again, due to the aforementioned lack of desire to acknowledge this other part of her that they cannot connect with.

which leads to season seven, where spike is the only person on the show who has developed and changed enough to remain at buffy's side helping her carry the burden. while everyone else suffered during season six, none of them opened their eyes to what they were doing to buffy - and if they did, none of them acted on it. spike is the only one to acknowledge the damage he's done and work to become better for buffy in any way he can. he is the only one that ends up able to carry that burden with her because he is the only one capable of facing the truth and acting on his desire to do better.

the fucking problem isn't that he hurt buffy - because to be quite frank everybody did - it's that he's the only person on the whole damn show to acknowledge his place in buffy's life, and to acknowledge the burdens she bears, and actively change himself for her. did you know he has almost all of the genuine apologies in the entire show? seven seasons and all of the harm the scoobies cause buffy, and it's fucking spike that is acting like a mature person capable of being a proper partner.

[floatingherelikethiswithyou]

it drives me insane when people say season six is bad because it’s too much about real world problems and the early years weren’t like that. seasons 1-3 are about buffy struggling with wanting to be a normal girl with a successful high school career and a boyfriend who’s good to her and a parent who understands her. that’s as “real world problems” as it gets when you’re sixteen. it’s just kid problems.

pretending the high school years weren’t about buffy struggling with real life as well as monsters manages to invalidate the unique experiences of both teenagers and adults.

the only difference is in s6 buffy is smacked with the reality that now shes an adult, she has to do these things on her own (because giles can force her to and she isn’t guaranteed a legal guardian) and if it gets fucked up the consequences are much more long term and devastating. she can be over not being crowded homecoming queen even though that was very upsetting at the time, because now she has to grapple with maybe losing her house and custody of her sister if she can’t pay bills and that will affect her deeply and forever.

that’s by design. that’s growing up. life was always the big bad. life just isn’t that big when you’re a teenager.

[boopsterliv]

Oh my God you're so right- Spuffies hold Spike accountable all the time .

Like sometimes we just want to rest be like - look at this little trash-raccoon-Spike is so cute in his garbage.

Then us goofing around gets taken out of context.

Exactly this! If we had to acknowledge Spike’s mistakes and poor choices all the time, we’d be exhausted

And whoever thought it was a good idea to assign morality to the way we interact with fiction instead of to our online behavior really sucks. I don’t like certain Buffyverse characters, but that does not mean I think the people who do are bad people. There are cordial ways to disagree with others

And there’s also the part where Spike appeals to the female gaze and has many women in his fanbase, and it gets misattributed to his appearance instead of the fact that both the narrative and himself hold Spike accountable. Taking accountability and growing as a person is very sexy

There’s this assumption in gen spaces that Spuffies are somehow shallow and condone the horrible things Spike (and Buffy, although she only seems to get flak for her other boyfriends having man pain) did but that is simply not true. Yes, Spike is hot, but for more reasons than his face, and part of that is him owning up to his mistakes

Sorry this was so long but I had a lot of thoughts, I hope you enjoyed my answer anon

[diaryofateenageslayer]

I was rewatching my Buffy DVDs and found the JW commentary. Even though his views on women/feminism tainted this show, he does explain his directing decisions.

If you don't believe the Spuffy fans, at least believe the writers and actors who created their story!

It's the "wait...Bangel was a big deal?" for me.

JW actually admits that Angel reappearing in the last episode and the Bangel kiss was, in fact, "fan service."

Emphasis on the VOCAL MINORITY that leads to the fan service. Something iconic enough (The Bangel kiss) to "give people hope( 😂) that Buffy and Angel might one day work out" - purple

I don't know what was going through that brain of his, but Parker was NOT "the most important relationship of her life." Like sir, where did that come from? - green

The chemistry between both David/Sarah and James/Sarah is insane. However, I like how both relationships have their own distinct chemistry. - yellow

Spike is more on Buffy's level. he understands her, both physically and emotionally, something Angel struggles with. - orange

The relationship is more nuanced, we witnessed the development, and we watched it build from the ground up. We can point out pivotal moments in the relationship. Spike has more dynamic, he's not just "the tall, dark and handsome vampire" that seduces Buffy.

Buffy tells Spike things she wouldn't tell anybody else.

"These two" (Sarah/Buffy & James/Spike), yes, I agree 🤗- blue

Angel is described as an object of desire. Buffy falls in love because of his looks. If Angel wasn't attractive, would she have fallen for him? It's his body that "becomes the object of her gaze."

He really has his looks to offer. "He's tall, dark, and handsome" so he must be a love interest. "Otherwise what else would his purpose be?"

The analysis states that Angel functions as Buffy's "homme fatal," (An ultimately seductive and dangerous man; a womanizer) which gives a nod to Liam's character, his human self.

Joss explains the comparisons between souled and soulless Spike and his behavior/change. Soulless Spike didn't recognize boundaries.

JW still highlights that Spike needs development before he and Buffy become "lovers" again.

The writer of the character and the story states that this man can be redeemed.

[classlayer]

" If the apocalypse comes, beep me. "

c. || est 5/2025 || vehemently anti whedon.

follows from zirkuskriechtier

[frenchhoneybee]

just had an anti spuffy acct comment for the third time on one of my polls about least favorite BTVS ships. apparently they thought willow and spike were otp which is such a crack ship imo and they hated willow x tara. anyway i ranted about it to my mom and blocked them but why the fuck did they have to bring that hate twice more than needed???

[darklinaforever]

I’ve never seen angel fans go after spike fans. I was just trying to search angel’s tag and the first thing I see is a spike fan trashing angel’s character and comparing them to each other. When they are very different characters that fulfill different roles

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Literally, me and @lizzie-queenofmeigas have already received anonymous requests from pro-Angel and anti-Spike crowds for our opinions being tagged correctly. These two sides of the fandom use each other's tags. There are idiots who don't know how to stay within their own tags everywhere. I personally like both characters. But it's clear that the best-written and consistent character is Spike (except for the SA scene which was inappropriate at that stage of Spike's development), because Angel is mostly very steeped in hypocrisy in terms of writing to make him seem like a saint, which he isn't.