#undercover!jon

[disneyprincessbuffyannesummers]

Gif from @thelawyerthatwaspromised I just added the text. :)

[a-baleful-howl]

Chekhov’s Ygritte

So, speaking from a technical, literary standpoint…like Chekhovs Gun or formulaic character arcs or basic foreshadowing, most well crafted narratives have everything happen for a reason. You show someone afraid of spiders in the beginning to show how timid and cowardly they are, so their arc at the end where they overcome their fears is more potent. You have your character break into a car early on to establish he has lockpicking skills so it doesn’t come out of nowhere in the climax.

Everything should have a purpose, whether it be to establish a character arc, or to set the ground rules of the world and story. So, pray tell, what would the undercover Wildling Jon plotline and Ygritte’s purpose to the overall story be?

1. Just to put Jon through even more hurt and pain, because GRRM likes seeing his characters suffer?

2. To teach Jon about the Wildling culture beyond the wall, even though it’s mostly likely to be destroyed the others pretty soon?

3. An excuse for GRRM to write more sex?

4. The best way to get the White Walkers and Night King into the Nights Watch’s attention?

5. To set a precedent of Jon going “undercover” to honor his duty over love?

When ASOIAF is all over and done, and the ending is glaring you in the face, whatever that ending may be - dead Dany, alive Dany, dead Jon, alive Jon - you could probably look back at Ygritte and the Wildling storyline and think “what was all that about? Was that a waste of time? What was the point?”

In regards to option 1: as much as GRRM has gotten a reputation for liking to kill his characters and create dramatic sequences, he always does so for a narrative purpose. It never seems to be haphazard or just because he wants to cause suffering. Giving Jon a love interest just to kill her for the sake of drama doesn’t seem to be his goal. A lot of writers, especially film writers, seem to do this, but I don’t buy it from GRRM.

In regards to option 2: by the end of the series, the Wildlings will probably be gone or at least severely crippled in numbers. I doubt there’s any important Free Folk culture bit that will come in incredibly handy with killing the Night King. And if the Wildlings will be dead, then it would be a waste of writing attention and page numbers to dedicate simply to just learning more about them.

In regards to option 3: kind of goes with option 1, the love interest line of thinking. If GRRM just wanted Jon to lose his virginity, it sure is a long and windy way to go about it - to have him go beyond the wall, kill a brother, pretend to be a turncloak, resist Ygritte at every turn, somewhat reluctantly give in and break his vows and then have her die. Good romance novel plot, but asoiaf?

In regards to option 4: to bring the true threat of the White Walkers into the story. Once again, there could have been quicker and easier ways to do it. Jon didn’t need to go undercover to do it, they could have found out while on the range independently of Jon having to go undercover. If GRRMs ultimate goal was “we need him to find out about the WW on the other side of the wall” it’s a big leap to go to “let’s have him pretend to turncloak and fall in love and fuck a Wildling to do it.”

Now, option 5: to set precedent. If there’s a big reveal later on that Jon is deceiving Dany - going “undercover” to survive while honoring his duty - it won’t come as big as a shock because it’s already happened before. Readers won’t find themselves closing the book going “whoa. Is Jon the bad guy? How could he do that? That came out of nowhere.” GRRM has already established Jon’s lines in the sand (or lack thereof), his morals, and what he’s willing and able to do - despite love, despite vows, despite fear. Ygritte will be the example he calls back to.

Despite it being very captivating, good storytelling, and beloved parts of the books, could you imagine just chopping the undercover Wildling plot out of the narrative, and anything being affected? Would anything change if he had not gone undercover? So unless Ygritte and the undercover Wildling plotline was a shaggy dog, or an example of gardening getting the best of GRRM, it has to have been done for a reason.

[severelynerdyyouth]

Rewatching Game of Thrones and I reached Season 5 ( not my favourite season) when I realised something whilst watching Mance's death scene . When Stannis says to Mance ' kneel and live ' , Mance replies with ' This was my home for many years. I wish you good fortune in the wars to come.' Who says almost the exact same thing two seasons later ? Oh yeah , Jon to Daenerys! Daenerys : "I've grown used to him" (Jon). Jon : ( very formally) " I wish you good fortune in the wars to come , Your Grace." Of course, in that same scene , Jon saves Mance from being BURNT ALIVE. Remember Varys telling Tyrion he used to feel guilt over the Mad King's burnings but did nothing? Remember Jaime telling Ned how no one tried to stop Rickard burning alive , even though they all found it obviously horrific? Everyone attending Mance's execution was distraught but JON ENDED IT . He is the only one in all of Game of Thrones history ( that I know of) to SUCCESSFULLY stop a burning. Jon has very strong feelings against burning people alive. He NEVER deems it 'necessary'. So I can't help thinking that A) When he discovers how much Daenerys loves burning people ( especially when he finds out about the Tarlys!!!!) he will be obviously angry and despise Daenerys for it and B) I believe he is thinking of Mance when he says this to Daenerys , at least subconsciously. But this is an obvious parallel between him and Mance and possible foreshadowing for Targ!bowl ( Stannis/ Daenerys being threatened by the power of another king, Mance/Jon , especially when Jon's parents and claim are revealed ). I realise that many people has drawn Stannis/ Daenerys and Mance/Jon parallels but I wasn't sure if this one had been noted. The lines are so similar that I can't believe they are a coincidence. What do you think? I'd love to hear some thoughts!😊

[unclebenjen]

undercover!jon is entirely plausible

so I was talking about game of thrones in college today, particularly about the possibility of jon playing daenerys, and I was told this idea is “retarded” .

so, let’s look at some of the contextual evidence given, shall we?

“you have to be smarter (than father, you need to be smarter than robb.”)

so, at the beginning of season 7, sansa warns jon about the impact his choices can/will make. we followed both ned and robb themselves previously, we know what happened to them: honour was their downfall, and they paid the price with their lives.

so, if jon has indeed fallen for daenerys, he would be following in the footsteps of robb, a young king who went back on his word for the sake of love.if jon has indeed betrayed the north (in that he has given it to a foreign southern ruler, despite hundreds of lives being lost to win it’s independence) then what was the point?

why would this line have been said in the first place, then? why would it mention ned and robb, if not to hint at an underlying direction jon was to take? sansa could have easily just said; “you need to be smart about your choices.” end of, moving on. this conversation between jon and sansa didn’t even need to exist, but, if we’ve learned from previous seasons, certain dialogue is included for specific reasons; everything means something in thrones. 

again: what would be the point in jon repeating the same mistakes from those dearest to him who lost their lives for it? 

jon has done it before.

we all remember jon’s first love, ygritte. it was a tragic tale of two people born into different worlds with different perspectives and, despite their love, those worlds got in the way. but jon didn’t exactly fall for ygritte at first sight, did he?

I’ve seen people claim that jon simply cannot be using daenerys because that isn’t his character. I’m sorry to be the one to break it to you, but that’s what he did with ygritte. he’s done it before, he can do it again.

in order to gain the trust of the wildlings, jon has to live like one of them, he has to do things their way. what better way to earn their trust than to break one of the ancient oaths that has been a part of the nights watch for generations? so, to avoid suspicion and risking the entire mission, jon gives in to ygritte’s advances and has sex with her. the love comes later.

“but why would jon kneel to daenerys and give her the north and then sleep with her if she already pledged to fight alongside him in the great war?” good question. it’s simply the same scenario as the wildings; he is gaining her trust piece by piece so that he may use her forces against the night king and his army when they come for the people of westeros. we’ve learned that people in this world are tricky and can go back on their word and just be generally unreliable. jon cannot risk this with the thousands of lives that are at stake, but, if someone is in love with you, they love you and will do anything for you.

daenerys, anyone? for example, when the wight hunters went beyond the wall to capture proof for the realm to show what they’re really up against, daenerys flies in to rescue them in time. or rather, she flies in to rescue jon. the first thing she does is reach for him. she doesn’t care about the wight or hell, even jorah, she just wants to get jon out of there. that’s not the actions of a simple ally, that’s the actions of a person in love. 

jon has daenerys right where he wants her, and she won’t be bailing on him or the cause any day soon due to her feelings for him. by securing daenerys as an ally to his forces, jon is securing her forces in the coming war. what does she have that no one else does? dragons. what were we as an audience and jon, as king in the north, told by davos at the start of the season? dragons are vital in defeating the white walkers. 

“but the kneeling and sex? what’s that about?” jon is luring daenerys into the false pretence that he reciprocates her feelings. by agreeing to bend the knee, which he actually doesn’t, nor do we ever see him physically bend the knee actions speak louder than words, jon is giving her everything she wants. he is giving her a substantial part of westeros, and with her dragons, she could overthrow cersei and rule. this is what she has been aiming for this whole time, except, now she wants jon as well, now. well played, jon.

body language reveals all. 

when jon finally leaves dragonstone after being daenerys’ prisoner, he takes his boat out to sea. he doesn’t look back at all, there isn’t so much of a quick glance. jon’s eyes are forward and forward, only. but who does look back? jorah. this man has done nothing but try to prove his love and dedication to daenerys, he truly has feelings for her and it shows. 

speaking of looking back, think of the staircase scene in which jon and daenerys discuss their lost brothers. jon leaves and daenerys is left on her own, and so she turns her attention to jon walking away and she watches him climb the stairs. this is the first glimpse we get that she has feelings for him.

the cave scene can also be brought to attention. you can say that “love was in the air”, but I personally cannot see it. the whole point of this scene is jon trying to bring daenerys to his side by explaining the past and what the future holds, especially with the threat of the night king and his army. jon breaks the barrier during this scene by making physical contact with her, and this is where his plan cuts into motion. even with the privacy they have, however, he does not make a move. this could be because he is testing the waters with her and is slowly luring her in. 

jon standing outside of daenerys’ cabin during the season finale can also say a lot. it’s entirely possible that the way jon ‘preps’ himself as he sighs and hesitates before knocking can be seen as nerves. but perhaps it’s supposed to look that way to in order to derail the audience and feed the false pretence of jon’s feelings to viewers, just as jon has been doing to daenerys. maybe this is actually jon feeling the moral conflict of what he’s doing; jon may be doing this for the greater good, but it doesn’t mean he’s happy about it. 

the plot of winterfell

also during the finale, it was revealed that both sansa and arya were deceiving littlefinger in order to take him down. not only was littlefinger fooled, we as viewers were as well, even if many theorised what was going on. we were not shown sansa and arya talking about their plan, we were only shown what littlefinger saw; the supposed brawl between them. this shows that it is completely possible for there to be a similar thing going on with jon. 

as well as this, sansa tells littlefinger that jon never asks for her opinion, but that simply isn’t true. when seeking advice before he left for dragonstone, jon, the king in the north, asks what sansa thinks. he values her thoughts and opinions, so sansa saying that he doesn’t is horseshit and we have been provided with evidence to support this. 

the starks, including jon, can be playing this game together as “the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.” 

the “love story” between jon and daenerys is rushed and forced 

we’ve seen many couples on game of thrones, all in different points of the story and all under different circumstances. we have seen the ups and downs of these characters and their relationships and how they’ve developed and gotten where they did. 

at this point, it is of my own personal opinion: there is such a lack of chemistry between jon and daenerys and there is not so much of a spark. within the time spent at dragonstone, daenerys stomped her foot and whined like a child when jon refused to bend the knee to her, so she took away his transportation to leave and kept him prisoner on the island. 

pretty much every time they talk, they bicker. she demands he bends the knee, he refuses. then, bam, they’re suddenly in love? I don’t buy it. it isn’t fleshed out and despite all the time we saw them together, it feels rushed as well as forced.

with other couples on thrones, we have seen them bond and properly talk about certain topics; about themselves and their lives. jon and daenerys don’t do this at all. except, daenerys does in a way. she talks about her brothers, talks about the dragons that used to rule westeros and brings up her infertility. but jon? what exactly does he bring to the table of personal offerings? nothing. he does not open up about himself and he doesn’t reveal anything to her. 

so all that their relationship is built on is that of purely aesthetic means. there is no substance to what they have.

so, in my opinion, undercover!jon is far from impossible, especially from everything we have seen so far. so to the dude that called this theory “retarded” maybe you should pay attention to what’s actually been going on and stop taking everything at face value. this is game of thrones, after all. anything is possible.  this is just my opinion and views on this theory, however. please respect my opinion and I shall respect yours ♡

[a-baleful-howl]

Some RIDICULOUS tin-foil time.

Diving down the rabbit hole that is Wikipedia today, and stumbled across the Know Nothing party, established in 1844. The title caught my eye.

"Adherents to the movement were to reply "I know nothing" when asked about its specifics by outsiders."

Anti-Catholic. Anti-Immigration. A secret organization. They believed there was a religious conspiracy going on.

Short lived. Prominent in the Northeast. (ahem didnt a certain author grow up around those parts? ahem) Had a bit of sucess, which led to them creating their own political party.

"The key to Know Nothing success in 1854 was the collapse of the second party system, brought about primarily by the demise of the Whig Party. The Whig Party, weakened for years by internal dissent and chronic factionalism, was nearly destroyed by the Kansas–Nebraska Act...The collapsing second party system gave the Know Nothings a much larger pool of potential converts than was available to previous nativist organizations, allowing the Order to succeed where older nativist groups had failed."

Lets maybe think about a secret plot, that, when asked, you "know nothing" about, to take down a mad religion, and to stop a foreign invasion, which ends with a new house...

Or maybe not. 😂

[a-baleful-howl]

Bran: Come home, we need to talk.

Jon: BRB, I gotta bed the last Targaryan to get her on my side first.

Bran: ...

[a-baleful-howl]

Leaked 7.07 Script Spoiler Talk

[a-baleful-howl]

The fact that we never see Jon’s perspective on Dragonstone should be a HUGE MAJOR WARNING SIGN that something is up with Jon. We have lots of scenes with Dany talking to her advisors privately. Of her talking about her decisions and plans and worries. Of her toying with the dark side. Of her laying out her war problems clearly for viewers to follow along.

And we don’t have one of Jon. Not one scene where Jon explains his conflicts this season like “ugh, this girl is being so annoying. She’s holding me prisoner, refusing to listen to me, but hey, I might actually find her pretty. So she’s got that going for her.” Yes, this is close to the scene where Tyrion finds Jon brooding on the cliffs - but that scene is from Tyrion’s perspective. As a Jonsa fan, when I see Jon brooding and regretting going there, I of course think he’s thinking about Sansa. He knows she’s unprotected at WF, she warned him not to go South, etc. To me, Jon is thinking of Sansa in that moment - but what he is actually so upset about is never fully explained point blank out loud. Just what is on the surface. Just what Tyrion knows he’s upset about.

We never have an expositional scene from Jon’s perspective, helping the audience walk through his decision making process. This is one reason why the “what about my Queen?” upset so many people. It came out of left field. Because he haven’t been able to see Jon’s internal journey up until this point. The few scenes we have of Jon on Dragonstone, he is out in the open, in public, and there’s very little talk about plans. No discussion of how he might figure out a way to get Dany to help him without giving up his throne. We have no scenes of Jon and Davos talking privately in their chambers about what they need to do. No shots of Jon looking thoughtfully at a wall struggling with his options.

I mean, we know Jon’s been doing this - but only as an outsider. He brooded on the cliffs right after arriving and being imprisioned. He was brooding out of the cliffs right after Dany flew off to burn people. But we only know this because we were in Dany and Tyrion’s perspective. Jon’s private POV is sorely lacking.

If I recall correctly, there’s basically no Jon’s perspective, his thoughts and worries straight from the horses mouth, for almost the entire season. Not like in other seasons (no season 6 “I’m tired of fighting!” exclamations) Most of his character stuff is in the beginning in Winterfell, with Sansa. He’s clearly insecure and is struggling to make good decisions as king to protect WF and Westeros from the Night King. The scene in the Great Hall, the scene on the bridge, the scene with Sansa, Jon and Davos after getting Tyrion’s letter, etc. But once he heads south, these types of scenes *poof* disappear. We see Jon through another characters perspective.

This tells me that there is something going on that we, as the audience, are not supposed to know right now. Jon’s motivations and choices are intentionally kept unknown or vague. You really think an entire season with very little private thoughts from one of the main characters is just a normal everyday thing? There is a reason. Jon had a lot of time of Dragonstone to think and try to figure out a solution. We just didn’t see it, because we’re not supposed to know it yet.