#until dawn rant

[erika111111]

Seriously, what did people want Mike to do when Handigo gets a hold of Josh? He's in a body of water, he has no weapons, he's half the thing's size, he's already seen this thing tear people apart. Did you really want him to fist fight her? He would've been killed instantly and Josh still would've died/been taken anyway.

I think people use it as an excuse to not like Mike and claim he's not heroic, but... for starters, there's already plentyyyy of other reasons not to like Mike (I love him, btw, but criticism of him as a person is still valid). And secondly, Mike literally chased after his girlfriend in the middle of the night during a snowstorm in a tank top after she got abducted by God knows who. Not to mention he'll kill himself in a fire just to make sure the wendigos don't get out and kill the rest of his friends. He's pretty damn heroic, if you ask me.

But he's not stupid. These are things he could reasonably pull off and actually save people with. Do you expect him to slowly wade through water and plant a fist in Handigo's back? People need to get real. If Mike had a gun or a flare or something, I think he would've tried to help Josh. But he quite literally had nothing to defend himself or Josh with. His explanation in his police interview was completely reasonable and accurate--there was no use in the both of them dying.

Note: There is the fact that no matter what, Handigo can never kill Mike. Intentional? I'm not sure. But even if she'll never actually kill Mike because she still loves him or whatever, Mike had literally no way of knowing that. In some cases, he doesn't even know that she's Hannah at all.

Sorry for the rant, I just see people complain about this a lot and try to write it differently in fan fictions and stuff, and I just don't get it...

[edmundtheartist]

The issue with the supermassive "fans".

It has become apparent to me that the fandom doesn't seem to actually like the actual source material if they feel the need to rewrite everything to fit their own little happy fantasy bubble. I remember a lot of people complaining about how Josh is never "fully saved" or him never having a happy ending, but that's the whole point of his character. These guys don't seem to understand that the entire point of Josh is that he is a tragic character, he's the playable antagonist and in the end he is always punished by either dying or becoming a wendigo, him always having a dark ending even if he survives makes him more unique and interesting, not to mention that it's a core part of the game's lore that terrible things happen and even those who escape don't have a totally happy ending either because they're permanently traumatized by all the horrors they faced, from witnessing a guy get decapitated, fake voices, possible clues regarding the sanatorium's history, Beth's head being severed, and having to kill Hannah for the good everyone else because she had become a monster beyond help now. And I honestly think that it was dumb of Ballistic Moon to even add that new ending for Josh because now they're just enabling those who can't stomach anything that isn't all rainbow and sunshine in tone. It's like that one woman from Bolt says, people are not happy with happy. The entire point of that game is that it's dark as hell and it's a tribute to the Native American folklore. These fans expect some sitcom, but these are video games, what's the point in buying a game if you don't want to play it and prefer it as a sitcom? If anything I would say that the fact that they didn't go further with all the drama between the characters too much is a GOOD thing because it kind of take away the element of well… a game! I didn't spend several euros just to play "Soap Opera: The Game", I spent it to play a game with intriguing lore. And if I'm being honest I actually don't mind Sam and Mike having plot armor either because I think it's believable in this rare occasion and I can't see anyone else successfully defeating Hannah like Sam and Mike do, they actually know how to fight and they're way more intelligent than the rest of them, and I really love the showdown with Sam and Mike having to defeat Hannah together and rely on strategy, and they immediately know what to do, they make the plan together without any words, they communicate via their mannerisms. It truly concerns me how many people fail to grasp the idea of a mature story, that tragic things happen, and that it won't always end happily. This game never needed to be fixed regarding its story.

[erika111111]

The fact that people think Emily had no right to be mad about Mike almost shooting her is completely insane to me. Yes, I understand that serial killers and monsters are a whole 'nother avenue of trauma, but would you not be angry or traumatized by someone you used to love and trust nearly shooting you in your face? I think she does have the right to vent to the police interviewers about that.

[erika111111]

Unpopular opinion about Josh Washington from Until Dawn

Josh is my favorite character in Until Dawn... but he IS a pervert.

I get it. He's an absolutely heartbreaking character with severe mental illness and a strong love for his sisters. A lot of us can relate to him, and I know that's why a lot of us do jumping gymnastics to try to deny him being a pervert, because that's the part we don't necessarily approve of or relate to. But the erasure of this VERY prevalent part of his personality is not doing the character justice. I find that a lot with Supermassive Games, that fans of a character will try to ignore or undo any of a said character's flaws completely and entirely, but honestly what makes SMG characters so amazing to me is that they're just like real people, with good and bad traits intertwined.

The endless excuses of "He was just joking" or "He was just trying to provoke them" or "It was just for his prank" are just exhausting at this point. Don't all of these things start to add up eventually? Not to mention that "just joking" does qualify you as a pervert. I do agree that the things he said about Jessica and Ashley in the shed were just to piss Mike and Chris off, but everything prior to that is inexcusable. Yes, he was trying to convince Chris to pursue Ashley in the beginning, but he didn't have to say such gross things. And Chris (depending on your answers) agrees with him, and nobody ever says that Chris isn't a pervert, so why does it not apply to Josh, the one who suggests and says these gross things to begin with? And he uses that type of lingo often, like calling everyone porn stars and the things he says to Jess and Mike before they leave to the guest cabin. Again, there's no reason for him to say these things, he's just a perverted little guy with a dirty mind.

And that's okay!! Again, Josh is my favorite Until Dawn character and possibly my favorite SMG character as a whole. I don't need him to NOT be a pervert just for him to be a likeable, relatable, or heartbreaking character. If anything, that makes me like him even more because it shows he really was just a normal teenager before everything happened. The fact that Josh fans feel the need to erase or excuse all of his perverted behavior is damaging and exhausting.

To get to the heart of why I think this conversation started to begin with, I also don't believe Josh was recording Mike and Jess in the guest cabin. I don't believe there were any cameras outside of the main house and the shed, simply because it was never brought up or hinted at ever throughout the game. We never saw a camera perspective inside of the guest cabin when playing there, and Josh never showed footage to anyone of the guest cabin, nor did he bring it up to provoke Mike at any point. Why Josh sent them to the guest cabin and away from all the drama to begin with despite them being so prevalent to the initial prank, that's a whole 'nother discussion. But point being, I just don't think there were cameras there. HOWEVER, even if there were, I honestly feel like this would have been one of the more "explainable" acts of Josh's perversion, given the theory is that he was doing it to avenge Hannah who was also recorded undressing/trying to have sex. So it really wouldn't have been because Josh just wanted to watch his friends' porno, it would have been to humiliate them like they did to Hannah. Yet, this is somehow the conversation that sparked pervert Josh vs. pure Josh originally...

On that note, he did factually record Sam naked, and I am more mixed on this one. He was definitely trying to make Sam feel uncomfortable and frightened, but I think it's clear that Josh has some underlying attraction to Sam. This is also a debate on its own, but I think there's some pretty strong evidence here. Even as the Psycho, he refers to Sam sexually or uses sexual terms, like "a beautiful bathing bird" and "here, pussy pussy." I feel as if his entire segment with Sam definitely has sexual undertones. But he didn't do this with Ashley or Chris. To be fair, it might have been because he was trying to push Ashley and Chris into each other instead, but I highly doubt Josh thought of himself as the Psycho was any competition. And, perhaps, the Sam/Psycho segment was sexual just to be the token "naked final girl" horror trope. It's hard to say entirely, and Josh's Psycho character was obviously just that, a character, and didn't necessarily represent his true feelings about anyone, but again, in combination with everything else, it's safe to say that Josh has a dirty mind. AND, not to mention, he makes sexual comments toward Sam prior to the Psycho segment as well, like asking her if she "needs any help" with taking a bath. Again, there's zero reason for him to say these things if he wasn't perverted or dirty-minded.

And again, THAT'S OKAY. In no way does Josh being a pervert make him a bad character, unrelatable, irredeemable, or anything of the such. Again, he's my favorite Until Dawn character and one of my favorite fictional characters ever. But I like this character for who he is in his entirety, and that includes him being a pervert. Because he is! I've been seeing so many posts and comments everywhere for months now with everyone saying he's not a pervert and attacking anyone who says he is, and it's gotten annoying. We need to be able to like characters without ignoring and erasing all of their flaws.

Edit: Because I feel the need to clarify this since people love to make horrible assumptions these days, in NO WAY am I justifying unwanted sexual comments or advances. Pretty much every character in Until Dawn is perverted, not just Josh, and everyone is "in on" Josh's perverted comments and jokes, so to speak, and they all play along or reciprocate. This post is just about Josh because his perversion is the only one that gets ignored or denied. I don't approve of the things he said or did to Sam as the Psycho or to Mike and Chris in the shed. A lot of people who do actually acknowledge Josh's harmful perversion just excuse it by saying "boys will be boys" and that's even more annoying than denying it altogether. If his comments always made the other characters uncomfortable, I might think differently of him, but again, everyone's a pervert just like him and don't mind. But I also don't think his moments as the Psycho or in the shed should be excused as "boys will be boys" because that's not "normal teenage boy behavior," and I think people deserve to be able to criticize him for these moments. It's always one extreme or the other with Until Dawn fans and it's exhausting. Yes, Josh is a pervert. And yes, you can criticize him for the harmful perversion. Again, every SMG character is multi-dimensional and you can debate what parts of them you do or don't like. But don't deny any parts or come up with bad excuses for them.

[erika111111]

Some quick thoughts on the new trophies for the Until Dawn remake and how they seem to affect the game/characters...

I am infinitely devastated that "Don't Scare Jessica to Death" is no longer a trophy. Jess is one of my favorite characters and we're left thinking she's dead for half the game, to the point where the Butterfly Effect menu very excitedly states "Jessica was still alive!" I think Jess surviving and her end credits sequence where she just seems so broken and damaged is just so iconic and impactful, it deserves its own trophy. Plus the name is top tier.

On the bright side, I do love the new "Drag Me Through Hell" trophy. That chase scene is what made me like Mike cause it shows he really loved Jessica, and I also reallyyyy like the movie Drag Me to Hell. (I'm biased for it because it's one of the first movies I watched with my boyfriend.)

So the changes to the Chris shoots Ashley/Ashley doesn't let Chris in trophy line... I personally like the idea that Ashley purposefully lets Chris die, but I understand that's an unpopular opinion, so I guess that's why they changed it. It's no longer a "fatal grudge" she held against Chris, she just "hesitated and failed to let Chris inside in time." Though I am curious what's necessary in order to get that option now. Can you shoot Ashley anymore? Why did she hesitate if she doesn't have a grudge? Do you play as Ashley during that segment now and you need to go fast before Chris dies? It raises a lot of questions...

Same with the removal of the "Instant Inferno" trophy. A lot of people say it's out of character for Sam to immediately hit the switch and kill everybody so that could be why they got rid of it, but again, that raises questions. Can Sam not instantly hit the switch anymore? Or are you just not rewarded for it anymore? Because if you can't do it immediately anymore, that seriously sucks, because it takes away so much pressure and intensity from the ending.

I actually love that they changed the Emily/Ashley slap to "Talk to eM." Not only does it keep the original pun intact, they now based it off of one of my favorite movies of all-time, Talk to Me! Also the acknowledgement of the slap is great, I'm glad they noticed.

While I personally disliked the movie Cabin in the Woods, I actually headcanoned it as one of Josh's favorite movies, so I guess I'm glad it got a mention in "The Cabin in the Blackwoods."

"We Need to Talk About Josh" I hate this trophy I hate this trophy I hate this trophy I hate this trophy... Just let the Washingtons be tragic!!! Josh will never have a happy ending anyway!!! His sisters are DEAD

I know "American Survivor in Canada" will cause some controversy cause a lot of people headcanoned the Until Dawn cast as Canadian, but I guess this implies they're American but the Blackwood Mountains are in Canada?

And lastly, I love love LOVE "I Know What You Did Last Year." I remember reading another post on Tumblr where their dad described Until Dawn as "Wendigo knows what you did last summer" and I probably laughed for ten minutes straight, lol. It's such a matching horror movie for Until Dawn and I'm so glad it got a place in the game now.

As a whole, I'm super mixed. It kind of seems like they're trying to take out a lot of negative endings/negative characteristics of the characters, and that bums me out a lot. Of course haters complained about this stuff, but the true fans like the character flaws and how they're not just one-dimensional and boring.

[winndycakes]

So I’ve heard of a game called Until Dawn that has gotten a lot of attention. While I haven’t played the game myself (nor have any means to) I have watched a few Let’s Plays and know the story. I’ve come to a few conclusions about it that I’ll detail below. (I.e. more so a rant.) Obviously spoilers ahead, be warned.

It’s interesting to see a game that draws inspiration from horror movie tropes, particularly the campy 80′s kind one has seen so much. A bunch of teen/early 20′s friends in some remote place where a killer/monster/whatever is stalking them. What really makes this game cool is that it finally does the whole ‘your choices matter’ schtick right. Instead of it being a game where choosing A over B only changes the story slightly, it changes it pretty dramatically, which is awesome. Because of this mechanic too you’re able to subvert, advert and play straight whatever typical horror movie tropes to your heart’s content. Everyone survives? Everyone dies? Only the black dude and slutty girl get out alive? Only the character you hated the most died? All that and more are possibilities. However, this seems to lead to some unfortunate not so subtle implications that tend to play tropes more straight than subvert.

Yes, you are able to tweak the character’s personalities with your choices, they still fit a certain mold within the horror movie genre, and the game (in a way) kind of expects you to fulfill this. Matt is the lone black dude and is one of the easiest characters to get killed off. Jessica is the token “slutty” girl and, surprise, can be (and often is in first play throughs) THE first to die. Then you have Sam, the token final girl and one of the very last possible people to die (there is NO WAY for her to die until literally by the end of the game). As well, it seems like the more disliked characters among the fandom are the girls, particularly Emily and Jessica which... surprise surprise, gives the player more incentive to get them killed off. Which is bullshit. I understand that they wanna spread out the personalties but... They couldn’t have turned the tables a bit more? It’s almost lazy writing, in my eyes.

Now, one thing I rather like is what they used for the main threat in the game. The Wendigo’s. We’re in a time where when one wants to pit people against a supernatural threat, we see a lot of vampires and zombies, with ghosts and werewolves trailing afterwards. So it’s super cool to not only see a creature that gets less lime light, but it coming from a PoC culture. There’s a lot of haunting symbolism with the Wendigo. Obviously cannibalism, but also cold, famine, winter, starvation and desperation. However, it can be tricky to make the Wendigo a plot device in a modern story because famine isn’t the common fear it once was only 100 or so years ago. I do have a lot of questions with how the Wendigo are shown in this game though, and some of my questions may well be able to be answered if I am able to brush up on my knowledge of the myths. Primarily is how they’re able to cope with the cold. They have no hair whatsoever on their bodies. Is there some internal body function that keeps them warm? How does it work? I was told that they’re kind of undead creatures, but even then that isn’t much of an excuse. Like in stories with cold environments and zombies, it’s observed that zombies do not do well in the cold, for obvious reasons. No body heat or the like to keep blood flowing (if these are undead supernatural types) and thus their movements get stiff to the point they freeze. And even they’re still alive, unless they have something warm to keep them going, same deal. No amount of raging zombie virus can battle against below freezing temperatures. My next question; is there a way to lift the Wendigo curse? Or is that mountain fucked for all eternity?  When the spirits are unleashed, is that also game over? Can the spirits be cleansed? Can we call the Ghostbusters? I’m probably asking too many questions for “horror movie logic” but I feel it makes the world more alive and believable if there are some real answers instead of “it’s magic stop asking.”

Finally, the thing that really bugs me, more than the glaring use of typical horror movie tropes, is how Josh is portrayed. Oh my god Josh. First and foremost, I like his character. He has one of the more complex and interesting personalities out of everyone in the game, and has understandable motives behind what he does. Understandable, but not necessarily warranted. He acted out his revenge prank to get back at his friends for the disappearances of his sisters. Let’s face it, who wouldn’t be pissed if you’re so called best buddies were responsible for them disappearing, likely dying, all over a dumbass prank? What Josh did to get back at them was clearly over the top. It as very mean spirited (more so than what the prank pulled on Hannah was) and very dangerous. But again, it is quite understandable his reasons for doing so.

But, then they shoot themselves in the foot. Josh is presented as a sort of antagonist... and unfortunately they reason out some of his actions with an unknown mental illness. This is bad, really bad, for various reasons. One, it further criminalizes people with mental health issues, painting them as villains the people “most likely” to become the serial killers and the ones who go off the rails. It wasn’t Josh’s intention to do such things, but this is still clearly the picture that gets painted and it’s a VERY damaging and insulting picture. Two, with this it makes mental health even more misunderstood, and it further gives incentive for people to be wary and guarded and unloving to people with mental health instead of compassionate, loving and accepting, those three qualities that people suffering mental health NEED. People will say “it’s just a game, people won’t actually do that!” but people are very influenced by media, to a conscious and subconscious level. People have been taught for years, decades, that mental health is something to be feared, to attack and stay away from instead of trying to learn of it and accept it. Then three, because of Josh’s mental health issues, he later gets into some trouble in which an episode he suffers from greatly hinders him. Then unlike near every other character in the game, where you can save them or get them killed off, there is NO GOOD outcome for Josh. And that is complete, total, utter and unforgivable bullshit. It gives the picture that there’s “nothing that can be done” or even worse that “this is what Josh deserves because of his actions and thus his mental health.” Am I going extreme with this analysis? Perhaps. But what happens to Josh through out the game is not the first time we have seen someone punished for something beyond their control.

In all, Until Dawn is a fascinating game with a story that is unique because you, the player, get to ultimately choose what becomes of it. But it has a number of glaring flaws that cannot and should not be overlooked or pushed under the rug.