#warsofasoiaf

[makerkenzie]

"What If" there's no way that would happen?

I was just reading warsofasoiaf and there are several posts of SLAL arguing with some Anon who poses an AU in which Rhaegar had Elia and the kids staying with her folks in Dorne before he abducts Lyanna. How does that scenario change the negotiations between the new Baratheon regime and the Martells?

(And this Anon is really invested in a plot of the Martells spiriting Elia and the kids out to the Free Cities right after the Baratheon victory so the kids are still a challenge to the Baratheons. At some point you gotta say "I'm not gonna help you plot your fanfic, comrade.")

When someone poses a What If scenario to me, the first question I ask is: how much would have to be different in order for the alternate situation to happen at all?

So I see this premise of "Rhaegar sends Elia and the kids to stay with her fam at Sunspear and then he goes and runs off with Lyanna" and my first response is: why would Rhaegar do that? Of all the shit Rhaegar could've done differently, how is that a plausible alternative to what he did in canon?

If Rhaegar were to put some actual work into keeping his wife and kids out of harm's way while he fucked everything up by cheating on her with Lyanna Stark...Dragonstone is closer, it's plenty secure, and it's already under the Targaryens' control.

You know...remember, that part in the rebellion where Aerys sends Rhaella and little Viserys to stay at Dragonstone so the rebels can't get to them? But he keeps Elia and the royal rugrats, IOW his own grandchildren, at the Red Keep so he can hold them hostage against the Martells? That's how we know this much: a) Dragonstone is much safer than King's Landing in war, and b) Aerys actively used his own son's wife and children as hostages.

If we need to set up an AU in which Elia and her children survive the rebellion...I think it's simplest to start with Dragonstone.

Either way, this Anon's view of the Baratheon-Martell negotiations is doubly nonsensical, because if Elia and her children are out of the Mad King's control---especially if they're at Sunspear!---then the Martells' position in the war is entirely different. If Elia and her children spend the war in a safe place, then Aerys can't hold them hostage. If they're not held hostage, then the Martells see this happening: a) Prince Rhaegar is openly cheating on Princess Elia with a 15-year-old noble girl and they don't know if he intends to return, and b) the Mad King has much less leverage against the Martells. So...once Prince Doran and Prince Oberyn recognize the Targs are losing the war, and so it doesn't even matter if Rhaegar intends to honor his marriage to their sister...what's to stop them from turning cloak?

Or they could just, like, flip the bird at both sides, kind of like Tywin does by staying at Casterly Rock until the last minute. Honestly, the Dornish are better positioned than the Westerlands to sit out the war altogether. If they've got the whole family together at Sunspear...they don't need to fight for the royalists.

If they haven't fought for the royalists, then their position at the end of the war is very different. As SLAL says, if Elia and the rugrats haven't been murdered by Lannister soldiers, then the Dornish aren't coalescing around a blood feud against the new regime. Furthermore, if the Martells have sat out the war, then they're not on the losing side, which means they're in a stronger position relative to the Baratheons.

It's a very different sort of negotiations.

[joannalannister]

About to start a panel at @conofthrones with @poorquentyn and @warsofasoiaf

[beyondmistland]

Do you any headcannons on the different styles on septs in each kingdom?

@warsofasoiaf and @racefortheironthrone have you covered:

https://warsofasoiaf.tumblr.com/post/651827762049466368/whats-your-headcannons-for-what-the-great-sept

https://racefortheironthrone.tumblr.com/post/139380097491/dear-maester-steven-in-the-past-youve-talked

Thanks for the question, anon

[joannalannister]

I received an interesting question about whether Ned Stark was present for Arya’s birth in 289, which was also the year of the Greyjoy Rebellion, and I don’t have a definitive answer. According to this detailed ASOIAF timeline, Arya’s birthday takes place during the third month of the year. 

But AFAIK, we don’t know what month Balon Greyjoy declared his independence from the Iron Throne. It would take at least two weeks for a raven to travel from Pyke to King’s Landing, another two weeks for the Iron Throne to call upon the Redwyne Fleet, the Starks, etc, and over a month for the Royal Fleet to travel from Dragonstone/King’s Landing to Fair Isle/Pyke.

The Tourney at Lannisport that celebrated the end of hostilities / the return of peace was also in 289, and you have to allow for the tourney to be announced and for people like Lynesse Hightower to make the journey to Lannisport, so say that’s another month or two after the Rebellion, at the very least. 

So my question is, approximately how long would the actual fighting take? From the attack on Lannisport to the Siege of Pyke, how much time would that actually take? Maybe @racefortheironthrone or @warsofasoiaf could help me out here? 

For example, would a reasonable speculative timeline be 

16 March 289 - Arya is born

1st April 289 - Balon crowns himself (289 was the onset of spring, so maybe Balon thought of winter’s end as the end of Ironborn subservience, idk, a new dawn for the Iron Islands) 

10 April - attack on Lannisport, Lannister fleet is put to the torch. Ravens fly with news of the attack. Tywin either starts building warships or buys them, because he will later invade one of the islands. 

15 April - raven from Pyke brings Robert news of Greyjoy’s Rebellion. Raven from Lannisport.

17 April - raven from Pyke brings Ned news of Greyjoy’s Rebellion

20 May - by this time, Stark / Tully / Lannister / Baratheon / Redwyne have all assembled their various bannermen

10 June - Battle of Fair Isle

20 June to June 10 - invasions of Great Wyk (Stannis) / Old Wyk (Selmy) / Blacktyde (probably Redwyne) / Harlaw / Orkmont 

15 July - Siege of Pyke

1 October - Tourney at Lannisport

[joannalannister]

@warsofasoiaf reblogged your post and said:

I’ve thought that Barristan might have spent the time between being knighted and joining the Kingsguard sort of hung around KL trying to make a name for himself, maybe getting noticed. Obviously the crown doesn’t know every knight in the Seven Kingdoms, so when places open up on the Kingsguard they have to go by who’s known (big tourney champions and such) and who has big names. The latter, I think, was what got Gerold Hightower his cloak; the Hightowers are a very powerful and very ambitious family, so when a few Kingsguard probably died at Summerhall, the Hightowers (who were probably hit hard by Aegon’s reforms) politicked for Gerold and Jaehaerys - not wanting to piss off the nobility further - gives in. But Barristan doesn’t have a whole lot to do at home - it’s all quiet on the Dornish front, a boring state for a landed marcher knight’s heir - so he might have been trying to be at the center of the action, so that he wouldn’t disappear based on his not-terribly-great family (they’re nothing to sneeze at, but a Selmy is nowhere near a Hightower).

But, you know, that’s just a theory.

Very possible. My theory on Gerold Hightower was that he was appointed to the Kingsguard before Summerhall and was the youngest/newest member of the Kingsguard at the time, and when the flames grew too high, Dunk pushed him out the door, ordering him to flee, while he (Dunk) kept going back into the burning building trying to save people, and suddenly the young Gerold Hightower was the last man alive wearing a white cloak and the terrible burden of leadership and survivor’s guilt had all fallen on him. Very “human heart in conflict with itself” / very sad. And it haunts him, all the way to the end: “The Kingsguard does not flee.” 

Imagine a twenty year old Gerold Hightower, his white cloak soot-stained and charred black in several places, stumbling into Grandview or Storm’s End or someplace leading a handful of dazed Targaryens, and everyone looks at him and asks, “Where’s the king?” End scene. 

The last years of Aegon’s reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.

GRRM has said that the places to find dragonlore within Westeros are Dragonstone and Oldtown, so I imagine Aegon V made a progress to Oldtown late in his reign to read all those books Tyrion would later read, and at this time, the Hightowers pushed forward Ser Gerold and Aegon V was like, “Yeah, yeah, whatever, just gimme everything you got on dragons.” My impression of Aegon V’s late reign was that he was losing ground on his reforms (hence the dragon obsession), and accepting Gerold Hightower to a KG position would be some relatively cheap horse-trading to win the Hightowers’ support for something Aegon V wanted. (I mean, once a KG position is open (assuming one was open at this time), you have to fill it with somebody.) 

idk, I like your theory because it’s very politically sound, but I like my theory because of the emotion and the imagery and further exploring the idea of the stained white cloak, that one of the men Jaime idolized as the epitome of knighthood was haunted by his own demons. 

One of us will be right in about 20 years :D

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

warsofasoiaf:

nobodysuspectsthebutterfly:

#i’d bet the blue septas venerate septa maegelle targaryen the way everyone else in the faith venerates baelor

Does this mean Rhaena could be the “patron saint” (very liberal use of the term) of the white, Maiden-loving septas?

Sure, sounds good to me. :) But y’know, considering how Catholic it is, the Faith of the Seven is really lacking saints, or saint-like practices. I suppose that because the Seven themselves are prayed to via their distinct features (mothers pray to the Mother, warriors pray to the Warrior, people seeking success in their jobs pray to the Smith, people seeking guidance pray to the Crone, etc), there's not as much need for "intermediaries" in the way of the medieval Catholic church, but sometimes it feels like a distinct absence. The Sept of Baelor is the only sept named after a venerated person, as far as we know, and it really feels like there should be more. (But you already talked about the lack of grand regional septs here.)

Heck, other than Hugor of the Hill, there’s even very little in the way of religious mythological figures. I'm sure it speaks to GRRM's worldbuilding as a gardener rather than an architect, but there should be more religious historical characters, more stories, more everything.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hello! T'is I with another Robb Stark question. Is there a website where I can find the full details of his military campaigns? I'm trying to get my head around some kind of a timeline/chronological event listing of each of his battles prior to his death. The books don't really help in that regard as they were talked about by differing characters (Littlefinger, Catelyn, Stannis etc) Thank you!

I believe BryndenBFish’s site is the place to go for military analysis of ASOIAF. Among the list of essays is an analysis of Robb Stark as a military commander, which should hopefully answer your question. (And if you have any further questions, you can ask the blogrunners at warsofasoiaf.)

You can also check out racefortheironthrone’s chapter-by-chapter ASOIAF analysis at his blog, which though it’s only about 2/3 of the way through ACOK, does some heavy analysis of the details of Robb’s battles in whichever chapters they appear.

In addition, the wiki’s article on the War of the Five Kings has links to articles about each battle and event of the war, in chronological order, which may also be helpful to you. Happy reading!

[asoiafuniversity]

We’re excited to announce that asoiafuniversity is partnering with warsofasoiaf to answer your questions about A Song of Ice and Fire! 

It has always been our policy not to answer meta questions, but now asoiafuniversity will be directing all of the text-based questions we receive over to warsofasoiaf​. Originally created by BryndenBFish, warsofasoiaf is run by Nina, Jim, & Hamish, all of whom are long-time fans, bloggers, podcasters, and experts on ASOIAF. If you have a question about ASOIAF, the team behind warsofasoiaf will be happy to answer it for you! 

warsofasoiaf.tumblr.com/ask