SanSan? (in which we discuss characterization, metaphorication, and possibility)
Lizzie: we could talk about sandor and sansa, too. not necessarily in a shipping way, just...i'm not sure GRRM is done with the two of them yet.
Lizzie: have you heard the theory that Sandor is the gravedigger on the quiet isle?
Lizzie: see here- http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2010/09/16_the_golem_and_the_/index.html. make sure your scope is set to all the books so it lets you see the spoilers. :)
Emma: :D verrrry interesting
Emma: i could probably talk that. idk if in relation to sansa much though
Lizzie: ....so I may have lied and I kind of do want to talk about it in a shipper way. as in, is that where he's headed? is it too effed up to work? what's problematic vs. what's good?
Lizzie: not a debate about whether or not people should ship it, though.
Lizzie: i do think it's interesting from sansa's pov, too.
Lizzie: she keeps the clock he leaves....something about it being at the bottom of her chest, and 'she's not sure why she kept it.'
Lizzie: and then the whole business of her misremembering the blackwater scene with him kissing her.
Lizzie: which didn't happen. so it's weird that she did. not necessarily in a fantasizing way, but...it's still really interesting. i mean, it's crossed her mind.
Emma: alright. do you want to start by presenting your questions in a more discussy-way, or do you want me to start by trying to answer them?
Emma: (and have you finished your hw??)
Lizzie: discuss-y way. and now, not done. :/ and i need to go to bed soon because i'm actually kind of living on a normal schedule. ugh, this time difference is killing my fandom productivity!
Emma: reading comments... I like the idea that Sandor has metaphorically/practically replaced Sansa's dead wolf--Lady. she's the only Stark kid who is alive with a dead wolf (because Nymeria is clearly still alive and wild).
Lizzie: YES. that is super significant, I think; the fact that Lady is dead. it speaks so much to Sansa's dangerous position. I mean, even beyond Sandor, I think it's a big deal.
Emma: Very much so. Even Arya, who doesn't have her wolf with her, has the option of sort of living with her wolf, or idk, the option of joining her if "Arya" dies. (and the dog aspect, too, really, for Sandor.)
Lizzie: right. arya has options open to her that sansa just doesn't.
Emma: I think Lady's name is important, too. after she dies, Sansa starts to grow up a little more and realize that there's more to being noble.
Lizzie: it's definitely a loss of childhood thing.
Emma: and if Sandor replaces Lady, that can also represent Sansa's own realization.
Lizzie: what it means to be a true knight. yes, exactly.
Emma: like, she names her wild pet wolf "Lady", and then Lady dies due to cruelty from a "real lady". So Sansa realizes there's more to it than just a name.
Emma: and when Sandor takes over the role of her protector, he's also replacing the idea of chivalry in her mind, kind of.
Lizzie: like, he's kind of a crap person, but he doesn't play the games.
Lizzie: oh gosh, you've seduced me away from my schoolwork.
Lizzie: ughhh this is giving me so many feelings about everything.
Lizzie: there's so much of their relationship that we didn't get in the show, which makes me really sad.
Emma: ok. my biggest *eh, idk* about Sandor being the gravedigger though- the fact that is SUCH a crap person. like, to the end. when Arya leaves him, nothing about his personality has changed.
Emma: and so if he were to end up on the Quiet Isle (and ESPECIALLY) if he were ever to end up anywhere near Sansa again, I would think there would need to be something /bigger/, you know? I would think maybe even something involving Sansa to change him.
Emma: not just "whoops, I almost died--hey bro, thanks!"
Lizzie: i would suggest, maybe, that seeing him from arya's pov and from sansa's are going to be very different? just in the sense that sansa brings out the "best" in him. sort of.
Emma: oh sure. but still, he was a crap person when he left Sansa, and then he was still a crap person when Arya left him, just objectively.
Lizzie: can't really argue with that. haha.
Emma: right. I really think Sansa DID bring out the best in him, but it's been quite a while since she's seen him, and so I have to wonder either A) how he ended up on the Quiet Isle/repentant at all or B) what his game is, if maybe it IS him and he's playing along for some reason. Because I really can't buy that he changed without something /bigger/. Just really can't.
Lizzie: I guess I'd have to see how it's done. I'm dubious, but open to persuasion.