so why not take it literally? the evidence can speak for itself thank you
(aka Messmer's actual place in the timeline, canonical relationship with Rellana, and whereabouts during his childhood, etc.)
aka AUs, what-ifs and headcanons are nice and all but sometimes I need serious canon lore time. And it is serious canon lore time now.
Almost a year ago, I engaged in a conversation where I said that Messmer's acceptance of his purpose to cleanse the Land of Shadow ended with his subsequent flight from Leyndell...because it was his "public debut", so to speak, and Leyndell did not react well to his flames or his winged serpents —well, everything about him, actually.
(Andreas and Huw were a bit more level-headed—or just ignorant—until they found out about the true belly-crawling split-tongue nature of Messmer.
But yeah, being a snake, curse or no curse, is a death sentence in the Lands Between no matter the time period. Just ask Rya or the coloseum duelists.)
I never really elaborated on why I thought that. Well, beyond reasoning how impractical it was for Messmer to suppress/hide himself 24/7 unless he got ahold of the mimic veil or travel around secret passages and sewers, just like Morgott.
Except, illusions are Morgott's thing and not Messmer's. His theme seems to be secrets locked away in the dark, to be forgotten about (but they live on, in the agony of a purgatorial state) ever waiting...and very convenient scapegoats of a fucked up system.
And because, frankly, most of what I had at the time was my gut feeling and a messy half-formed picture on the weirdness of Messmer-related lore.
But that has since changed.
the Dilemma of Messmer's timeline
As far as most people are concerned, Messmer's Crusade was the first and/or only time he went to the Land of Shadows. Which led to people ignoring details that contradict their beliefs about when the Crusade happened.
And also led to varying conclusions about when he was supposedly born.
Because of the sheer impossibility of making all the Messmer-related clues and lore cohesive without breaking time itself.
Well, I am ending the dilemma and flattening that timeline with a hot iron...courtesy of a small detail that embarrassingly took me this long to realize. (And I started working this draft almost a month ago so, yeah, shorter than a year but longer than I wanted to.)
The prominent sources of the confusion about Messmer's timeline seem to be based on the misconception...that the lore description from both Rellana's Helm and the Remembrance of the Impaler are pertaining to events that happened at the beginning of or during the Crusade.
But the thing is: neither of them are, in any way, even related to Messmer's Crusade.
Evidence A: the Remembrance of a God and a Lord
Evidence B and C: the Haligtree statues of Malenia and Miquella (and either Marika or Godwyn or even Radahn depending on your side of the argument).
Well, "what about those statues and remembrance?", you ask.
Based on this Reddit post by Tintinmdm, Miquella has not aged at all between the Haligtree statues Evidence B and C, so his and Malenia's curses were already in effect during their childhood.
But how old were they exactly in Evidence B?
Here's some child development facts to give you an idea:
Before puberty begins, boys are generally slightly taller than girls.
Girls typically start their pubertal growth spurt around age 10, which is about two years earlier than boys. This earlier spurt allows girls to temporarily become taller than boys in the earlier middle school years.
Boys' growth spurt happens later, usually between ages 12 and 15.
Miquella and Malenia were younger than ten and their curses already affected them terribly.
They started out as normal babies but were already born afflicted...and their curses became physically apparent at some point during their childhood, and progressed onwards.
This is more evident on Malenia, as she loses an arm down the shoulder by her teens and all of her extremities by adulthood.
If you think the rot isn't apparent in the statue of her as a little girl, think again.
Malenia described her blood as rotten and she unleashed the Scarlet Rot by blooming into a flower (and possibly spreading pollen/spores everywhere). It is likely the rot started in her blood which traveled to blood vessels and then spread to her internal organs and extremities.
Here's a real life equivalent:
Fungal infections can start from internal organs and spread to the limbs, especially in people with weakened immune systems, though it's more common for superficial infections to occur in the skin and nails of the limbs.
Systemic fungal infections, which affect the lungs, brain, or blood, can become aggressive and spread to other organs, including bones, which can manifest in the limbs.
For example, a fungal lung infection could potentially spread to cause osteomyelitis, a bone infection, in an arm or leg.
Contrast this to Messmer, whose serpentine curse only manifested in his lengthened limbs and the winged serpents from his torso.
I originally vacillated between early childhood and pre-Crusade for his eye loss because of the scarseal/soreseal items, which was a mistake that muddled the timing for me.
But when you compare his pre- and post- Graceseal-breakage forms, and compare that to the progression of Malenia's curse. It becomes obvious that his affliction was stalled at an early stage—childhood (pre-teen at the oldest) might be more accurate.
And the point to all this?
I need you to have an idea on how young and smol Messmer was when he was secreted into the Land of Shadow.
So we now have two points in time when Messmer went to the Land of Shadow. One as a young child fresh off the physical manifestation of his curse (and loss of his eye), and the other as the head of a Crusade.
And we know the Crusade happened when Radagon was already Elden Lord, so Rellana went to the Land of Shadow when Messmer was just a kid. She wasn't chasing a man; she was going after a child. A kid. A brat.
Godfrey is already banished, which allowed Radagon to lead Marika's golden armies. The Omen twins are shackled down in the sewers.
Godwyn is very busy with the fallout of his dad being gone, and has to compliment Radagon in the battlefield because neither of them are Godfrey (and no one can replace the legend).
Marika conceives Messmer at some point during this (maybe via parthenogenesis, or with Radagon) and he is normal. At first.
Maybe he shows symptoms of something like a sickness or strangeness that leads to him getting a regimen of physicks/medicine specifically made for him. But things progress to the point Marika had to bless these special physicks.
Then Messmer has something, a serpent, writhing from within him. Perhaps the first signs were actually the lengthened arms and then the snakes (or maybe even the other way around).
Maybe Marika gets some inkling on exactly what is wrong (that her child is a vessel of another god, or something like it) and she plucks out his eye and replaces it with it a seal made from her grace.
But it was not enough. She secrets her cursed child in the Land of Shadow to hide him away. Left him some medicine that has long since ran out. Perhaps also brought along a small retinue of servants/caretakers—who became those shadowy scholars, or who are perhaps now long dead people—into the refurbished old keep where Godfrey once cast his long shadow.
(Or perhaps, Marika has not set foot in the land of Shadow since she gave up on curing her kindred and left a single braid in her village, and when young Messmer was sent away in secret to Shadow Keep, she did not come with him.)
It is evident via architecture that Shadow Keep has been altered and extended more than once, at least three times:
1) the original tower/warehouse with Marika's braid ring
2) the fortress, statues and church district of early goddess Marika (the kind),
3) the side tower/now Messmer's boss room with one-braid Marika who never returned
4) the marks where sigils of Messmer's Crusade covered everything and more temporary add-ons on the outside when they turned the main tower into the specimen storehouse.
You can say Messmer grew up and changed alongside Shadow Keep (likely version 3).
If we follow Haligtree pattern with Miquella-Malenia childhood statues, the Marika statue in Messmer's boss room can be a depiction of Marika and Messmer when his curse lacked physical symptoms.
(But that baby could also be Godwyn, for all we know. Which adds to the tragedy.)
Either way, it changes the context of some lore descriptions about him and weird details about his men, doesn't it?
Messmer being a kid when he was secreted to the Land of Shadow might explain:
1) why only Radahn of the Carian demigods is associated with him.
Maybe Radahn was just a little younger than Messmer to be able to see him as an older brother figure (and suddenly lose him one day).
If Radahn is the demigod closest to his age, the earliest Messmer may be conceived and born should be right after Godfrey was stripped of Grace and banished. And the latest will be during the period between Liurnian Wars or before the Second Liurnian War.
Even this way he'll learn about the Tarnished as Marika did not exactly forbid the knowledge of what happened to her consort. I mean, they built a church where Marika divested Godfrey and the Tarnished of their Grace. It's practically gospel.
(It's just like learning how your parent and parent's ex split before you were born, but it was such a suddenly event, weirdly amicable and happened publically that everyone knows about it.)
2) why Queelign looks normal compared to the other Fire Knights and is as gung-ho zealous over Marika as the Black Knights.
He might have joined their group during Messmer's Crusade, while the others have been Messmer's personal knights for much longer, and followed him into the Land of Shadow as a child.
3) why the Fire Knights have moral quandaries and were willing to protest and countermand Marika's desire to cleanse the entire Land of Shadow—the Specimen Storehouse of Shadow Keep and Rauh ruins included—and why Messmer took their side.
They co-existed with the Hornsent for a time, even if just by keeping to themselves. Messmer and his companions had a life without the Golden Order breathing down their necks.
4) the weird existence of the shadow scholars.
They might even be hornless Hornsent like those of Midra's Manse, or the caretakers of Marika's abandoned tower/keep who remained behind and pledged allegiance to Messmer, or scholars who worked with Fire Knights in studying Rauh.
As to their shadowy spirit forms, either it's a result of ordinary unblessed people undergoing prolonged exposure to Messmer flame, or the result of the Veiling and Scadutree of the Land of Shadow, or they are Hornsent and willingly got burned as per Marika's order or suicided/burned themselves using Messmerflame as a fucked up symbol of loyalty and faith.
It could be because she is not Hornsent (like the demihuman slaves the Hornsent kept that became Bloodfiends).
But she and Messmer both share weird twirly polearm 360° attacks that leave them flying around the arena. So perhaps they knew each other via Rauh research party.
Perhaps Romina betrayed the Hornsent. Perhaps she was a hidden shaman descendant. Who honestly knows.
6) why the Erdtree incants used and invented by the Fire Knight have Crucible/Godfrey era sigils (associated with the Age of Plenty) and not Erdtree Worship sigils like incants used/invented during the Ancient Dragon wars or Liurnian Wars (which seem to be more exclusive on who has the privilege to learn them).
Erdtree Worship was in its infancy/early years when they left the Lands Between.
7) the weird timeline of Rellana receiving Rennala's gift of hair and chasing after Messmer.
This happening during the Crusade is unlikely because the Crusade happened during Radagon's time as Elden Lord but before the Shattering. If Rellana chased after Messmer earlier in the timeline, Rennala will be in a healthier state of mind as Radagon has not yet abandoned her.
This also means that Rellana had already undergone the combat rite, and possibly used her Thrusting Shield as proof of her allegiance to the Erdtree when she met up with Messmer and his party.
8) why Messmer was chased out of Leyndell despite the Crusade being commemorated and stuff.
If Messmer was snuck out as a youth in secret and only returned as an adult, then Leyndell might still remember him as a normal redhead child of Marika (who got sick or something and sent away by Marika "for his well-being") and will not expect the demigod to have winged snakes sticking out of his torso or be in possession of forbidden fire powers.
And they did not react well, especially with how society changed during Radagon's era as Elden Lord. And perhaps because of recent events (i.e. Godwyn dying and Ranni vanishing) and they possibly associated both events with Messmer's appearance.
9) Andreas' ignorance on Messmer's curse and its nature. Andreas and Huw not being nobles may have played a part, but that does not excuse it completely. (See #8 & 10)
10) why soldiers who learned Godfrey's combat style were willing to follow Messmer (beyond "because Marika ordered it").
Messmer and his men still practice outdated customs associated with Godfrey's reign, which the soldiers are familiar with (and might actually miss).
Any changes came from adapting religious traditons (aka syncretism) to function in the Land of Shadow, such as Scadutree worship, boat funerals, etc..
The Shadow scholars of Shadow Keep worship the Minor Erdtree in the Land of Shadow; it's not too far off to worship the Scadutree too.
11) why Rellana represents both the Waxing and Waning Crescent Moons. Twin Crescent Moons.
She went from young maiden/waxing crescent to mom of a kid/pre-teen and eventual old wise lady/waning crescent really fast.
Yes. The triple moon goddess theory does not consist of Rennala, Rellana and Renna/Ranni, but only Rennala and Rellana.
Because the Triple Goddess symbol is made up of a waxing crescent (maiden - Rellana), full moon (mother - Rennala) and waning crescent (crone - also Rellana).
Ranni/Renna's dark/new moon is its own thing and not part of the Triple Moon Goddesses. Any of the triple moon phases can become a dark/new moon, because it means renewal. Got it?
Other stuff that I can't fit in paragraphs my brain hurts sorry
Imagine a young Messmer knocking on the door of Rellana's quarters in shadow keep because he had a nightmare
Rellana "I am not an old maid" moved out to Ensis because Messmer is a grown man now; he can no longer cuddle her every time he has a bad dream or Marika-related issues and she is definitely not having empty nest syndrome
Messmer was willing to wait for millennia because it was not the first time Marika left him hanging
it's like Marika is a toxic addiction/bad habit and Messmer getting his blinding seal recharged with her presense and going on his crusade is a major relapse
He was okay after being abandoned the first time, why did she have to call him back?!
She only ever needed him, and this time she desired for him to become her symbol of fear, her devil
and...remember that Ranni originally was the Empyrean chosen to succeed Marika in becoming the god of the new age (and that Godwyn was her lord/consort according to theories and circumstances behind their shared death)
maybe Messmer was supposed to play villain (or gatekeeper) and be beaten by the chosen god and lord(?)—something between how the mysterious Gloam-Eyed Queen was defeated by Maliketh or how the Fell God and Fire Giants were defeated by Marika and Godfrey
More speculations with some evidence:
maybe Ranni was supposed to ascend to godhood via the Gate of Divinity up Enir-Ilim like Marika once did
but she used the Night of Black Knives to escape that fate and dipped
and then Miquella and Radahn stepped up and made a mysterious vow with Malenia to become a god and lord
so Messmer might be in on this info via the tree sentinels guarding the way to Shaman Village—they wield the Sentry's Torch, an item commissioned by Morgott after Godwyn's body-death
Plus there was the cut Messmer line where he mentions Miquella
so the "lord of light" he might actually be waiting for is Radahn, but nothing happened for a very long time
Because after Mohg took Miquella (perhaps as planned) and Malenia failed to kill Radahn, Marika broke the Elden Ring
Messmer of course did not know how things badly went sideways and remained clueless until he met the Tarnished
He didn't even have to die. Miquella can apparently enter and exit shadowed Enir-Ilim just fine in his spirit form. Leda is just an *ss and wanted to see him become a god before anyone else. And the Tarnished is...the Tarnished and just had to kill everyone blocking their way to see Miquella.
Random takeaways aka other things I realized or thought of while making this post:
Marika invented the term "demigod", which implies that the offspring of previous gods may have also been called "gods" too. (Which leaves questions on the divine nature of Eiglay: was it the offspring of a god, an ascended god or the vessel or vassal of a god?)
Godwyn is notably the only demigod with a nursemaid, perhaps because Marika and Godfrey were very busy with what I call "the Crucible Wars", where battles happened among elements of the Crucible and non-Crucible races like the Nox or Liurnians were outside their radar. I'm still not sure if Godwyn or the Omen Twins are the firstborn, but if the Omenkillers only came into development after Godfrey's exile and the twin's teenage years, then it is likely that Godwyn is the firstborn.
Erdtree Worship incantations appeared around the time of the Liurnian Wars and the Ancient Dragon War, so these events happened close to each other. Whichever came first is unknown, but it is very apparent that Godwyn is basically an adult by this time period.
What if the Dragon War happened between the two Liurnian Wars—like the first war was interrupted by Gransax and Radagon had no choice but to stop invading Liurnia if he doesn't want to fight two wars at the same time? What if Godwyn allying with the Ancient Dragons gave Radagon the idea to make peace with the Carians and marry Rennala?
Or perhaps the Ancient Dragon War happened after the Liurnian Wars and Radagon inspired Godwyn to make peace with the ancient dragons?
Surely Messmer visits home from time to time before the Crusade? Not likely. Miquella made a whole production on how hard it is to get to the Land of Shadow. And being just dead is not a given. They never specified if he needed Mohg beyond being a source of the vessel for Radahn. And Miquela didn't make an exit strategy for his followers—how exactly will they leave??? Maybe the factor of the Crucible influence/lineage is required? And we don't even know how people leave the Land of Shadow beyond the Tibia Mariners ferrying you and using the Grace of gold (but the latter is only for the Tarnished).