the17thmuse

Non-writer. Poet. Artist. Will update sporadically. Mostly drawings, poetry and random story ideas. Currently undergoing Elden Ring fixation.

[the17thmuse]

the tyrant looming over the cliffs thing is more than being just dramatic (but it is dramatic nonetheless)

So, Messmer's sigil being structured as either a bishop's or a king-at arms' during the Crusade has...interesting implications on his actual role in Marika's empire—kingdom, whatever.

The post associated with this one veered more on the (hot) priest/bishop shipping angle—though bishops historically fought in battles during the Crusades and didn't just do priestly things. But that's only because the king-at-arms angle is quite something else and that same post has a lot going on already.

To start with, a King-at-Arms (or King of Arms) is defined as a high-ranked heraldic officer (aka the highest-ranking herald) who is responsible for overseeing matters of heraldry, geneaology/lineage and ceremonial duties for a ruler or noble.

They are authoritative experts in heraldry, the system of family or clan emblems, coats of arms, and other symbols of identity; and are therefore responsible for authenticating, resolving disputes over usage of, and maintaining records of coats of arms. 

Kings-at-Arms also presided over ceremonies such as knighting rituals and ensured the proper conduct of tournaments, royal funerals, etc. and other events where heraldry played a significant role.

If you guys remember the lore descriptions on the two duelling shields, here they are:

Messmer may not have been Rellana's opponent during her ceremony like some people theorized, but he might have presided over ceremonies like it instead.

And the presence of the thrusting shield in the Land of Shadow may have meant the ceremony actually happened there and that Rellana was not yet officially aligned to Messmer when she chased after him.

Or, she is already aligned with the Erdtree and brought the shields along as a reminder and proof of their alliance.

During the Crusades, Kings-at-Arms would travel with armies, verifying the knighthoods of the participants and ensuring that the heraldic symbols of various contingents were displayed correctly, for the sake of maintaining order, identifying allies, and recognizing those entitled to the privileges of knighthood. 

While they might be present on the battlefield, Kings-at-Arms are not military commanders. Their primary function was related to organizing and legitimizing crusader forces rather than direct military leadership. 

Which would explain why Messmer has more than one army commander, but he probably did lead his Fire Knights.

Plus, he is definitely a warrior so this might be a tiny glimpse of something beyond being the villanous Impaler and being the friendly, charismatic (and unpopular) snake demigod.

But then, if Messmer is the guy who is supposed to issue new grants of arms for persons or organizations...do you think Mohg sent his prototype sketches for his Mogwyn Dynasty (even if it was just a fanciful dream at the time)?

Having to stop Radahn from trying to fit Leonard and his cat into the flag with the lion, and having to help choose just the right lion iconography for his banners and coat of arms?

Godwyn wanted to put dragons in the sun on his personal coat of arms following the Ancient Dragon War and someone had to tell him no?

It's too bad he left on a crusade before the Shattering. Can you imagine the look on his face when Rykard changed his original emblem (whatever it was) into the blasphemous one?

[the17thmuse]

the bestest best friend shaped companion club

A sword named Cerberus

A cerberus named Sword (Gladius is Latin for sword)

Heolstor and Shamrock can start their own dogsword-sworddog pet owner club I guess.

As for the crossover, what crossover? Cerberus dragged Shamrock (or he fell) into a temporary rift the Nightlord made, I suppose...and the knight(?) had an interesting adventure.

Picture this: after Heolstor finally dies/loses to the Nightfarers, Shamrock gets custody of the Tricephalos, and he goes around with Cerberus and Gladius.

Maybe Gladius is even armed with Cerberus, which will be hilarious.

(Will be even better if Shamrock was just a young teen when this happens, so he can have another best friend to hug and cry on after Shanks does his thing in the future.)

[the17thmuse]

the power of a single word

The description of the Minor Erdtree Incantation is as follows:

Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order. Creates a small, illusory Erdtree that continuously restores the HP of nearby allies. Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal.

"There was no one to heal", not "there was no one left to heal".

Funny how one word, or lack thereof, changes how you see things.

Marika might not have casted this incantation after Shaman Village was emptied of its inhabitants. She might have casted it while the shamans were whole and hale, in the village—there was no one who needed healing.

Maybe the items found in Shaman Village were not only tied to Marika leaving her past. Perhaps they are representative of the beginning and the end of Shaman Village's (and Marika's) fate being intertwined with that of the Hornsent people.

We have no concrete evidence how the Hornsent discovered the Shamans of Shaman Village. But we do know that they have a practice of looking for divine elements to study, take, shape and make theirs to suit their own purposes.

What if they discovered the Shaman through Marika's gold tree incantation. And they took the entire village when they could not find the one responsible for the incantation, the Empyrean Marika.

And in the process of finding ways to make the Shamans useful (or just enslaving them like they did the demi-human tribe), the Hornsent discovered a most interesting quality of Shaman flesh.

Marika hadn't been there when the Shamans were "spirited away". Perhaps she was on a journey to find out what being an Empyrean means; perhaps she was looking for a lord candidate; perhaps she had been called away in order to receive her Shadowbound beast.

Whatever possibility kept her occupied, and by the time she came back she found her village empty.

Her followers/worshippers were still looking for her people, praying for their fates to Marika (as a god of the Land of Shadow). So even in the early days of her godhood, she might not have known what happened to them.

And then at some point she learned of their fate. And then she betrayed the Hornsent.

Perhaps by tricking them into turning her tower/keep into research storage, giving her access to their intel. Which gave her the opportunity to sneak into their gaols and make off with some of their Greatjars of reincarnation.

Or perhaps she invoked the "wrong" god/god-vassal.

Or let them access Farum Azula (or had Malekith give them info about Farum Azula) to learn how to ascended to godhood via mass sacrifice/divine gate (but did not tell them the tiny and important detail that only a specific divine vessel—her—can ascend to godhood in that way).

Or she chose to shape her Age in a way that will not serve their goal of touching divinity.

Honestly, there are so many ways she could have pulled one over the Hornsent, when you really think about it.

And then she failed her people again by failing to fix or cure them (in secret). And then she made her goodbye to the Grandmother, left the village one last time, and then left the Land of Shadow entirely. Fucking off to Leyndell with her consort, followers, etc..

[the17thmuse]

the woods come beckoning

you walk a path of vagrant light

and lose your sleep on morbid thoughts

and build up walls to hide from sight.

and yet, the woods come beckoning.

you live inside a house of thorns

and suffer visions wide awake,

and sit upon a throne of horns,

and feel the woods still beckoning.

you dream of screams and blood too dark,

and travel places men won't go,

and never fail to find your mark,

and hear the woods still beckoning.

you tell yourself to never go,

afraid of what you may yet see,

and worse, what you have come to know

about those woods still beckoning.

you try your best to stay away;

resist the urge to hunt again.

and yet, your mind cannot but stray

towards those woods still beckoning.

and your resolve, then one day, breaks.

you take that bleak epiphany:

there never was a choice to make,

and find the woods still beckoning.

you shed that unfit skin you play

and free the hunter underneath,

and stretch the claws you hid away,

towards the woods still beckoning...

...you walk a path of moonlit night

and veil your sleep with gruesome thoughts,

and build up walls to hide these sights.

for, still, the woods come beckoning.

[the17thmuse]

i've literally tracked down the DNA and i have no idea what it means. help

By this point most of us probably know the spirals from weapons such as Godslayer's greatsword and Sacred Relic sword, and spells/incants of crucible/primeval glintstone energy stuff are based on the DNA helix structure...but "how specifically?" is the question which I seriously regret asking.

In doing said research I realized I might need a medical student, expert or geneticist or cytologist to provide a deeper explanation as to what the heck I found. Because two semesters worth of medical studies did not get me far into DNA beyond the basics.

Two Finger Talisman - Chromosomes

Chromosomes are thread-like structures located in the nucleus of cells that carry genetic information in the form of DNA. They are composed of DNA and proteins, with DNA being tightly coiled around proteins called histones. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, totaling 46, with one set inherited from each parent.

Chromosomes package and organize DNA, which contains the genetic information (genes) that determine an organism's traits and functions.

Godslayer's greatsword - DNA helix unwinding/unravelling

DNA unwinding, also known as DNA denaturation or strand separation, is the process where the two strands of the DNA double helix separate. This is crucial for DNA replication, repair, and transcription, as it exposes the DNA's base pairs, allowing enzymes and other molecules to access the genetic code. DNA unwinding is facilitated by enzymes called helicases, which use energy from ATP to break the hydrogen bonds between the base pairs.

Metyr & Dragonlord Placidusax - DNA Replication Bubble and DNA Replication Fork

As helicases unwind the DNA, they create a Y-shaped structure called the replication fork, where the two strands are separated.

Sacred Relic sword & Bolt of Gransax - DNA winding

DNA winding refers to the double helix shape and how it's further coiled (supercoiling) to fit inside cells, a critical process involving twisting and untwisting for functions like replication and transcription, managed by enzymes to relieve strain and enable gene access. 

Spiral/Ring/Ouroboros reference that can be found almost everywhere in Elden Ring & Remembrance of the Impaler and Shadow Sunflower - DNA Supercoiling

DNA supercoiling refers to the over- or under-winding of a DNA strand, and is an expression of the strain on that strand. It is important in a number of biological processes, such as compacting DNA.

“Supercoiling” is an abstract mathematical property representing the sum of twist and writhe. The twist is the number of helical turns in the DNA and the writhe is the number of times the double helix crosses over on itself (these are the supercoils).

Additionally, certain enzymes such as topoisomerases are able to change DNA topology to facilitate functions such as DNA replication or transcription.

Fingerslaying blade - DNA single strand breaks (SSBs)

A DNA single-strand break (SSB) is a discontinuity in one strand of the DNA double helix. These breaks are a common type of DNA damage, with cells experiencing tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands per day. While SSBs are usually repaired quickly, if left unrepaired, they can lead to genome instability and cellular dysfunction.

Fire Knight's Shortsword, Fire Knight's greatsword & Queelign's greatsword - R-loop structure in DNA-RNA hybrid via DNA strand displacement/strand invasion

RNA invading a DNA strand, forming an RNA:DNA hybrid, is a process crucial for various biological functions like transcription, DNA repair, and genome editing. This invasion, also known as strand displacement, involves RNA displacing one strand of the DNA double helix to form a hybrid structure, sometimes called an R-loop.

R-loops are three-stranded nucleic acid structures crucial for various cellular processes, including gene expression, DNA replication, and genomic stability. However, excessive or unresolved R-loops can lead to DNA damage and genome instability and potentially contribute to diseases like neurological disorders, cancer, and autoimmune diseases.

R-loops can induce DNA damage, but they are also involved in DNA repair mechanisms. For example, they can promote DNA double-strand break repair. 

R-loops play a significant role in telomere maintenance and stability. Telomeres, the protective caps at the ends of chromosomes, rely on a delicate balance of R-loop formation and resolution to ensure proper replication and prevent genomic instability.

Telomeres are repetitive DNA sequences at the ends of chromosomes. They prevent the chromosome ends from fraying, tangling, or fusing with other chromosomes. 

The chromosome ends can be recognized as broken DNA by the cell's repair mechanisms. 

Telomeres prevent this from happening by hiding the chromosome ends from these repair systems, ensuring the cell doesn't try to fix something that isn't actually broken. 

Telomeres also allow cells to divide without losing important genetic information. Each time a cell divides, the telomeres become slightly shorter. 

Eventually, they become too short, and the cell can no longer divide, leading to cell senescence (aging) or cell death. 

By preventing chromosome fusions and degradation, telomeres help maintain the integrity of the genome. 

Telomere shortening is linked to the aging process, and telomere length can be a factor in age-related diseases. Some studies suggest that telomere length may even be a biomarker for brain aging. 

[the17thmuse]

so why not take it literally? the evidence can speak for itself thank you

(aka Messmer's actual place in the timeline, canonical relationship with Rellana, and whereabouts during his childhood, etc.)

aka AUs, what-ifs and headcanons are nice and all but sometimes I need serious canon lore time. And it is serious canon lore time now.

Almost a year ago, I engaged in a conversation where I said that Messmer's acceptance of his purpose to cleanse the Land of Shadow ended with his subsequent flight from Leyndell...because it was his "public debut", so to speak, and Leyndell did not react well to his flames or his winged serpents —well, everything about him, actually.

(Andreas and Huw were a bit more level-headed—or just ignorant—until they found out about the true belly-crawling split-tongue nature of Messmer.

But yeah, being a snake, curse or no curse, is a death sentence in the Lands Between no matter the time period. Just ask Rya or the coloseum duelists.)

I never really elaborated on why I thought that. Well, beyond reasoning how impractical it was for Messmer to suppress/hide himself 24/7 unless he got ahold of the mimic veil or travel around secret passages and sewers, just like Morgott.

Except, illusions are Morgott's thing and not Messmer's. His theme seems to be secrets locked away in the dark, to be forgotten about (but they live on, in the agony of a purgatorial state) ever waiting...and very convenient scapegoats of a fucked up system.

And because, frankly, most of what I had at the time was my gut feeling and a messy half-formed picture on the weirdness of Messmer-related lore.

But that has since changed.

the Dilemma of Messmer's timeline

As far as most people are concerned, Messmer's Crusade was the first and/or only time he went to the Land of Shadows. Which led to people ignoring details that contradict their beliefs about when the Crusade happened.

And also led to varying conclusions about when he was supposedly born.

Because of the sheer impossibility of making all the Messmer-related clues and lore cohesive without breaking time itself.

Or so we thought.

Well, I am ending the dilemma and flattening that timeline with a hot iron...courtesy of a small detail that embarrassingly took me this long to realize. (And I started working this draft almost a month ago so, yeah, shorter than a year but longer than I wanted to.)

The prominent sources of the confusion about Messmer's timeline seem to be based on the misconception...that the lore description from both Rellana's Helm and the Remembrance of the Impaler are pertaining to events that happened at the beginning of or during the Crusade.

But the thing is: neither of them are, in any way, even related to Messmer's Crusade.

And here's why.

Behold:

Evidence A: the Remembrance of a God and a Lord

Evidence B and C: the Haligtree statues of Malenia and Miquella (and either Marika or Godwyn or even Radahn depending on your side of the argument).

Well, "what about those statues and remembrance?", you ask.

Based on this Reddit post by Tintinmdm, Miquella has not aged at all between the Haligtree statues Evidence B and C, so his and Malenia's curses were already in effect during their childhood.

But how old were they exactly in Evidence B?

Here's some child development facts to give you an idea:

Before puberty begins, boys are generally slightly taller than girls.

Girls typically start their pubertal growth spurt around age 10, which is about two years earlier than boys. This earlier spurt allows girls to temporarily become taller than boys in the earlier middle school years.

Boys' growth spurt happens later, usually between ages 12 and 15.

Miquella and Malenia were younger than ten and their curses already affected them terribly.

They started out as normal babies but were already born afflicted...and their curses became physically apparent at some point during their childhood, and progressed onwards.

This is more evident on Malenia, as she loses an arm down the shoulder by her teens and all of her extremities by adulthood.

If you think the rot isn't apparent in the statue of her as a little girl, think again.

Malenia described her blood as rotten and she unleashed the Scarlet Rot by blooming into a flower (and possibly spreading pollen/spores everywhere). It is likely the rot started in her blood which traveled to blood vessels and then spread to her internal organs and extremities.

Here's a real life equivalent:

Fungal infections can start from internal organs and spread to the limbs, especially in people with weakened immune systems, though it's more common for superficial infections to occur in the skin and nails of the limbs. Systemic fungal infections, which affect the lungs, brain, or blood, can become aggressive and spread to other organs, including bones, which can manifest in the limbs. For example, a fungal lung infection could potentially spread to cause osteomyelitis, a bone infection, in an arm or leg.

Contrast this to Messmer, whose serpentine curse only manifested in his lengthened limbs and the winged serpents from his torso.

I originally vacillated between early childhood and pre-Crusade for his eye loss because of the scarseal/soreseal items, which was a mistake that muddled the timing for me.

But when you compare his pre- and post- Graceseal-breakage forms, and compare that to the progression of Malenia's curse. It becomes obvious that his affliction was stalled at an early stage—childhood (pre-teen at the oldest) might be more accurate.

And the point to all this?

I need you to have an idea on how young and smol Messmer was when he was secreted into the Land of Shadow.

Yeah.

So we now have two points in time when Messmer went to the Land of Shadow. One as a young child fresh off the physical manifestation of his curse (and loss of his eye), and the other as the head of a Crusade.

And we know the Crusade happened when Radagon was already Elden Lord, so Rellana went to the Land of Shadow when Messmer was just a kid. She wasn't chasing a man; she was going after a child. A kid. A brat.

You get it.

So picture this:

Godfrey is already banished, which allowed Radagon to lead Marika's golden armies. The Omen twins are shackled down in the sewers.

Godwyn is very busy with the fallout of his dad being gone, and has to compliment Radagon in the battlefield because neither of them are Godfrey (and no one can replace the legend).

Marika conceives Messmer at some point during this (maybe via parthenogenesis, or with Radagon) and he is normal. At first.

Maybe he shows symptoms of something like a sickness or strangeness that leads to him getting a regimen of physicks/medicine specifically made for him. But things progress to the point Marika had to bless these special physicks.

Then Messmer has something, a serpent, writhing from within him. Perhaps the first signs were actually the lengthened arms and then the snakes (or maybe even the other way around).

Maybe Marika gets some inkling on exactly what is wrong (that her child is a vessel of another god, or something like it) and she plucks out his eye and replaces it with it a seal made from her grace.

But it was not enough. She secrets her cursed child in the Land of Shadow to hide him away. Left him some medicine that has long since ran out. Perhaps also brought along a small retinue of servants/caretakers—who became those shadowy scholars, or who are perhaps now long dead people—into the refurbished old keep where Godfrey once cast his long shadow.

(Or perhaps, Marika has not set foot in the land of Shadow since she gave up on curing her kindred and left a single braid in her village, and when young Messmer was sent away in secret to Shadow Keep, she did not come with him.)

It is evident via architecture that Shadow Keep has been altered and extended more than once, at least three times:

1) the original tower/warehouse with Marika's braid ring

2) the fortress, statues and church district of early goddess Marika (the kind),

3) the side tower/now Messmer's boss room with one-braid Marika who never returned

4) the marks where sigils of Messmer's Crusade covered everything and more temporary add-ons on the outside when they turned the main tower into the specimen storehouse.

You can say Messmer grew up and changed alongside Shadow Keep (likely version 3).

If we follow Haligtree pattern with Miquella-Malenia childhood statues, the Marika statue in Messmer's boss room can be a depiction of Marika and Messmer when his curse lacked physical symptoms.

(But that baby could also be Godwyn, for all we know. Which adds to the tragedy.)

Either way, it changes the context of some lore descriptions about him and weird details about his men, doesn't it?

Messmer being a kid when he was secreted to the Land of Shadow might explain:

1) why only Radahn of the Carian demigods is associated with him.

Maybe Radahn was just a little younger than Messmer to be able to see him as an older brother figure (and suddenly lose him one day).

If Radahn is the demigod closest to his age, the earliest Messmer may be conceived and born should be right after Godfrey was stripped of Grace and banished. And the latest will be during the period between Liurnian Wars or before the Second Liurnian War.

Even this way he'll learn about the Tarnished as Marika did not exactly forbid the knowledge of what happened to her consort. I mean, they built a church where Marika divested Godfrey and the Tarnished of their Grace. It's practically gospel.

(It's just like learning how your parent and parent's ex split before you were born, but it was such a suddenly event, weirdly amicable and happened publically that everyone knows about it.)

2) why Queelign looks normal compared to the other Fire Knights and is as gung-ho zealous over Marika as the Black Knights.

He might have joined their group during Messmer's Crusade, while the others have been Messmer's personal knights for much longer, and followed him into the Land of Shadow as a child.

3) why the Fire Knights have moral quandaries and were willing to protest and countermand Marika's desire to cleanse the entire Land of Shadow—the Specimen Storehouse of Shadow Keep and Rauh ruins included—and why Messmer took their side.

They co-existed with the Hornsent for a time, even if just by keeping to themselves. Messmer and his companions had a life without the Golden Order breathing down their necks.

4) the weird existence of the shadow scholars.

They might even be hornless Hornsent like those of Midra's Manse, or the caretakers of Marika's abandoned tower/keep who remained behind and pledged allegiance to Messmer, or scholars who worked with Fire Knights in studying Rauh.

As to their shadowy spirit forms, either it's a result of ordinary unblessed people undergoing prolonged exposure to Messmer flame, or the result of the Veiling and Scadutree of the Land of Shadow, or they are Hornsent and willingly got burned as per Marika's order or suicided/burned themselves using Messmerflame as a fucked up symbol of loyalty and faith.

5) Romina being spared.

It could be because she is not Hornsent (like the demihuman slaves the Hornsent kept that became Bloodfiends).

But she and Messmer both share weird twirly polearm 360° attacks that leave them flying around the arena. So perhaps they knew each other via Rauh research party.

Perhaps Romina betrayed the Hornsent. Perhaps she was a hidden shaman descendant. Who honestly knows.

6) why the Erdtree incants used and invented by the Fire Knight have Crucible/Godfrey era sigils (associated with the Age of Plenty) and not Erdtree Worship sigils like incants used/invented during the Ancient Dragon wars or Liurnian Wars (which seem to be more exclusive on who has the privilege to learn them).

Erdtree Worship was in its infancy/early years when they left the Lands Between.

7) the weird timeline of Rellana receiving Rennala's gift of hair and chasing after Messmer.

This happening during the Crusade is unlikely because the Crusade happened during Radagon's time as Elden Lord but before the Shattering. If Rellana chased after Messmer earlier in the timeline, Rennala will be in a healthier state of mind as Radagon has not yet abandoned her.

This also means that Rellana had already undergone the combat rite, and possibly used her Thrusting Shield as proof of her allegiance to the Erdtree when she met up with Messmer and his party.

8) why Messmer was chased out of Leyndell despite the Crusade being commemorated and stuff.

If Messmer was snuck out as a youth in secret and only returned as an adult, then Leyndell might still remember him as a normal redhead child of Marika (who got sick or something and sent away by Marika "for his well-being") and will not expect the demigod to have winged snakes sticking out of his torso or be in possession of forbidden fire powers.

And they did not react well, especially with how society changed during Radagon's era as Elden Lord. And perhaps because of recent events (i.e. Godwyn dying and Ranni vanishing) and they possibly associated both events with Messmer's appearance.

9) Andreas' ignorance on Messmer's curse and its nature. Andreas and Huw not being nobles may have played a part, but that does not excuse it completely. (See #8 & 10)

10) why soldiers who learned Godfrey's combat style were willing to follow Messmer (beyond "because Marika ordered it").

Messmer and his men still practice outdated customs associated with Godfrey's reign, which the soldiers are familiar with (and might actually miss).

Any changes came from adapting religious traditons (aka syncretism) to function in the Land of Shadow, such as Scadutree worship, boat funerals, etc..

The Shadow scholars of Shadow Keep worship the Minor Erdtree in the Land of Shadow; it's not too far off to worship the Scadutree too.

11) why Rellana represents both the Waxing and Waning Crescent Moons. Twin Crescent Moons.

She went from young maiden/waxing crescent to mom of a kid/pre-teen and eventual old wise lady/waning crescent really fast.

Yes. The triple moon goddess theory does not consist of Rennala, Rellana and Renna/Ranni, but only Rennala and Rellana.

Because the Triple Goddess symbol is made up of a waxing crescent (maiden - Rellana), full moon (mother - Rennala) and waning crescent (crone - also Rellana).

Ranni/Renna's dark/new moon is its own thing and not part of the Triple Moon Goddesses. Any of the triple moon phases can become a dark/new moon, because it means renewal. Got it?

Okay.

Other stuff that I can't fit in paragraphs my brain hurts sorry

Imagine a young Messmer knocking on the door of Rellana's quarters in shadow keep because he had a nightmare

Rellana "I am not an old maid" moved out to Ensis because Messmer is a grown man now; he can no longer cuddle her every time he has a bad dream or Marika-related issues and she is definitely not having empty nest syndrome

Messmer was willing to wait for millennia because it was not the first time Marika left him hanging

it's like Marika is a toxic addiction/bad habit and Messmer getting his blinding seal recharged with her presense and going on his crusade is a major relapse

He was okay after being abandoned the first time, why did she have to call him back?!

She only ever needed him, and this time she desired for him to become her symbol of fear, her devil

Pure speculation:

and...remember that Ranni originally was the Empyrean chosen to succeed Marika in becoming the god of the new age (and that Godwyn was her lord/consort according to theories and circumstances behind their shared death)

maybe Messmer was supposed to play villain (or gatekeeper) and be beaten by the chosen god and lord(?)—something between how the mysterious Gloam-Eyed Queen was defeated by Maliketh or how the Fell God and Fire Giants were defeated by Marika and Godfrey

More speculations with some evidence:

maybe Ranni was supposed to ascend to godhood via the Gate of Divinity up Enir-Ilim like Marika once did

but she used the Night of Black Knives to escape that fate and dipped

and then Miquella and Radahn stepped up and made a mysterious vow with Malenia to become a god and lord

so Messmer might be in on this info via the tree sentinels guarding the way to Shaman Village—they wield the Sentry's Torch, an item commissioned by Morgott after Godwyn's body-death

Plus there was the cut Messmer line where he mentions Miquella

so the "lord of light" he might actually be waiting for is Radahn, but nothing happened for a very long time

Because after Mohg took Miquella (perhaps as planned) and Malenia failed to kill Radahn, Marika broke the Elden Ring

Messmer of course did not know how things badly went sideways and remained clueless until he met the Tarnished

He didn't even have to die. Miquella can apparently enter and exit shadowed Enir-Ilim just fine in his spirit form. Leda is just an *ss and wanted to see him become a god before anyone else. And the Tarnished is...the Tarnished and just had to kill everyone blocking their way to see Miquella.

Random takeaways aka other things I realized or thought of while making this post:

Marika invented the term "demigod", which implies that the offspring of previous gods may have also been called "gods" too. (Which leaves questions on the divine nature of Eiglay: was it the offspring of a god, an ascended god or the vessel or vassal of a god?)

Godwyn is notably the only demigod with a nursemaid, perhaps because Marika and Godfrey were very busy with what I call "the Crucible Wars", where battles happened among elements of the Crucible and non-Crucible races like the Nox or Liurnians were outside their radar. I'm still not sure if Godwyn or the Omen Twins are the firstborn, but if the Omenkillers only came into development after Godfrey's exile and the twin's teenage years, then it is likely that Godwyn is the firstborn.

Erdtree Worship incantations appeared around the time of the Liurnian Wars and the Ancient Dragon War, so these events happened close to each other. Whichever came first is unknown, but it is very apparent that Godwyn is basically an adult by this time period.

What if the Dragon War happened between the two Liurnian Wars—like the first war was interrupted by Gransax and Radagon had no choice but to stop invading Liurnia if he doesn't want to fight two wars at the same time? What if Godwyn allying with the Ancient Dragons gave Radagon the idea to make peace with the Carians and marry Rennala?

Or perhaps the Ancient Dragon War happened after the Liurnian Wars and Radagon inspired Godwyn to make peace with the ancient dragons?

Surely Messmer visits home from time to time before the Crusade? Not likely. Miquella made a whole production on how hard it is to get to the Land of Shadow. And being just dead is not a given. They never specified if he needed Mohg beyond being a source of the vessel for Radahn. And Miquela didn't make an exit strategy for his followers—how exactly will they leave??? Maybe the factor of the Crucible influence/lineage is required? And we don't even know how people leave the Land of Shadow beyond the Tibia Mariners ferrying you and using the Grace of gold (but the latter is only for the Tarnished).

[the17thmuse]

I narrowed down the general time period when Messmer was born. And I am both embarrassed and pissed that it took this long to figure it out.

The clues were all there. In front of our faces.

Still on the editing phase but I cannot contain myself.

See you soon.

[the17thmuse]

two snakes doing the tango

Because it's completely rational to randomly ship a tyrannical snake who is a tangle of snakes in human skin with another tyrannical snake who is a tangle of snakes in human skin. Yeah.

My dumb brain wants to ship it but my gut says it's very bad news. Even more problematic than the any dragon + Messmer crack ship.

It's going to go very badly. For Messmer that is.

(Sunday cartoon characters can bounce back from anything; Fromsoft characters don't. The sadomachocist god demands its people broken and unfixable. Anyway...)

I'm getting strong prisoner-of-war Stockholm Syndrome and other dubious mental manipulation vibes, and Messmer is usually the one falling for it with bonus existential (or is it religious?) guilt.

Betrayal and short-term alliances among villains is a bread-and-butter constant in MOTU, and he's too damn loyal and faithful despite being a supposed pragmatic dishonorable villainous bastard. Things he must have picked up from being raised in a faith-based culture ruled by a living breathing god queen.

At least Marika has another option/war to throw her politically and religiously-inconvenient fire serpent son at, and use him as a distraction (while the Order picks on Rykard's research and figures out how to defeat, kill or seal away these outworldly serpents.)

So instead of abandoning his sorry ass in the Shadow Realm in the guise of a Crusade, Marika can instead toss him and his army at an invading race of serpent men who conquered entire worlds in the name of their king, empire, creator or serpent gods.

Messmer might just learn to rebel against his mother faster. Or maybe he'll hate himself even more and drown in envy because they get to be defiant and proud of their snake biology (and live and be acknowledged and belong) and he can't.

If the Erdtree/Golden Order wins, the hatred of snakes will be even more prevalent than it was before (and he will not survive it). If the Order is defeated, he loses the people he loves; they get killed, enslaved or eaten.

Anyway, the serpent-men are totally Messmer's people, see? The light is bad and darkness is good for them, just like it is for him.

(Sorry, Ser Messmer, but my fascination for you has its roots in growing up with 200X King Hsss.)

+ King Hsss canonically only really started turning people out of desperation, after he lost his empire and majority of his army and needed replacements. Converting members of the Golden Order is a double-edge sword, because the Order can and will turn on its own.

On one hand it's a waste of magic because only a select few leaders will be willing to spare them (aka if Marika can actually herd her army of rabid bloodthirsty zealots so they can create a counterspell—oh wait, she can't). On the other, it's good propaganda for Hsss because it makes him look like the reasonable one.

++ what if Marika got wind of the serpentmen's preference for darkness and manipulated things so that the Land of Shadows becomes the battleground for this war. And that's when she sacrifices Messmer and his army and traps them with the Snakemen army in that dimension.

*For extra extra mindfuck, what if Messmer and his army were retrieved from the Land of Shadow some time after they were already abandoned after winning against the Hornsent but still before the Shattering.

+ If they got out before the Black Knight coup/rebellion, and Huw gets converted into a snakeman which will piss Andreas off greatly. He's been pushing for the converted to be culled while the Fire Knights want them to be treated of their magical affliction.

+ Messmer had to learn from Ranni and Rykard that Queen Marika had his army retrieved only as a last resort. She had jeorpardized the Alliance of Gold and Moon by recalling Radagon to be her Elden Lord, and the repurcussions of the broken marriage vow are still ongoing with Caria basically left to its own devices and erupting into a civil war.

Rennala had mentally deteriorated because of the Rune of the Unborn (demigods) inside the amber egg Radagon bequeathed to her.

They needed Rellana and her knights to help resolve the Liurnian civil war. And Messmer to supplement his sibling/half-sibling/step-siblings' forces, and be of some further use because the enemy leader is a racist who values his snake people.

Not to mention some funky things going on on in the background with the Snake cult Rykard discovered, the mysterious nature of the Abyssal Serpent, and other demigod shenanigans.

(Being a snake in the Lands Between really sucks.)

[the17thmuse]

no dam can block a river forever

Okay, new theory on Messmer's winged serpents and abyssal serpents.

What if they are different manifestations from the same darkflame serpentine god—like pink rot and scarlet rot from the god of rot—and their benign and malign natures come from acceptance, worship and suppression/rejection?

The wicked serpent writhing in Messmer was supposedly sealed behind his eye, but his winged serpents are his constant companions. Perhaps the winged serpents are the earliest form of his curse of serpentine flame—the benign and healthy form—and the grotesque and unhealthy form of the abyssal serpents and Base Serpent Messmer is the result of the subsequent sealing and millennia of suppression.

Marika's seal of grace plays a role, but perhaps the change in location, from the Lands Between to the Land of Shadow, also played a factor here.

Malenia lost body parts to the scarlet form of Rot because the god of Rot was sealed in the Lake of Rot under the Lands Between, and Malenia rejected the Rot and the Rot Kindred. However, the Rot is free, worshipped and accepted (benign) in the Land of Shadow, and Romina instead became an amalgam of lifeforms associated with rot. Both the Rot Kindred and Forager Brood resemble each other outside of a few differences, such as aggression and color, but a marked difference still exist.

The opposite might be the case for Messmer's dark serpent. Or it may be more complicated than that, as Messmer's curse is multifaceted—a chaotic and wicked serpent that feeds on a dark and spiritual kindling that burns shadow/dark/serpent (like an oroboros).

Serpent (winged serpents included) - had a cult/worshipped/unsealed yet forbidden in the Lands Between (unless you are Rykard's faction)

Fire - important and tied to the sacred art of smithing in the Land of Shadow; forbidden, nearly extinct (via last Fire Giant of the Fell God) and a sin in the Lands Between (until the Shattering happened)

Dark - unsealed/has altar in the Land of Shadow

Chaos - drawn or bound to the Land of Shadow via Scadutree

And Messmer might possess both benign and malignant forms because he moved between locations during different points in his life (and has a mixed reception and mindset in certain aspects of his curse).

To contrast the serpent, flame and rot, the Blood god/Formless Mother and those chosen/blessed don't seem any different between the Lands Between and Land of Shadow—outside of Mohg's albinaurics growing Omen horns and Morgott's suppressed/rejected cursed blood creating a multicolored blade—as the god hasn't been sealed or suppressed, only discovered and worshipped in both lands.

[the17thmuse]

horoscopes are fun (and games) until the coincidences start piling up

So what was Messmer like behind the Impaler?

Hhm. I know, consult everything about his horoscope. But we don't know what star/constellation he was born under. Oh well, fire element snakes do exist in the Chinese zodiac.

What could possibly go wrong?

Conclusion: So...he might have deadpan humor, guys. I can't. Help.

[the17thmuse]

body of earth, blood of water, breath of air, spirit of fire

fire = spirit may be more literal when it comes to Messmerflame

We have three flames associated with spirits.

Ghostflame, a cold blue-black fire, is created by the burning of bones and is kept by the Deathrite Birds. Grave violets, spirits and hexes are associated with it.

Frenzied Flame is a fire only in form because it is convergence in essence and will melt all creation, even spirits, back to that chaotic primordial soup of pre-creation.

Messmerflame supposedly burns down to the soul and there is a great emphasis on its spiritual properties—in essence, it is a spiritual flame.

Anyway, I think I figured something out.

The Fire Knights tried to take in Messmerflame so it can find purchase within them (and give them fire powers) as a sign of loyalty and devotion. But that failed and they had to create specific incantations for Messmerflame instead.

Fire Spritestones require twice the amount of Rauh burrows because a mere Ember of Messmer has more spiritual power than a spirit calculus.

I don't know the exact fraction or percentage difference but an ordinary Spritestone requires only 1 Rauh burrow, 1 spirit beast horn and 1 spirit calculus while a Fire Spritestone requires 2 Rauh burrows, an Ember of Messmer and 1 spirit beast horn.

Fire Spritestones are also unaffected by bondstones, so the Messmer Ember might either be a step lower from being an independent spirit (like an elemental wisp), or there is no bond to break at all. Like its a mere extension of something much more vast.

(Or the influence of the Abyssal Serpent on the flame gave it the substance amounting to zero or nothing at all. It has the presence of "nothing" like those dark weapons of night that can bypass shields and armor.)

Anyway, Wego used Messmerflame in a resurrection rite but it technically failed as the original souls did not return to their corpses. The bodies are occupied and animated by the Messmerflame that acts like substitutes for the souls.

So, what if the reason the Fire Knights cannot take in the Kindling...is because there is no space for it in their body. Because their souls are occupying that mystical space where the Kindling is supposed to go to.

Messmer tried to get rid of his Kindling many times, but it will not be snuffed out or removed. What if...the Kindling actually is (or is the manifestation of) his own soul?

[the17thmuse]

was it actually the civilized vs the savage

Guys, what if Messmer's Crusade was infamous and rejected not for fucked up moral or religious reasons but for societal ones? (Or is it technically political?)

We know Marika really wanted this war, but Messmer had to scapegoat himself as some villain and symbol of fear to hide her involvement as the actual mastermind.

Like, this was after Godfrey and the Tarnished were exiled and Radagon became Elden Lord. (Or between these two events.)

What if it was a case of "We are (becoming) a civilized people of both faith and intelligence, the old ways of the savage Crucible, blind faith and of war and violence are now beneath us."

Out with the warriors and beasts and in with the scholars and philosophers.

What if it wasn't because of the violence of the Crusade, as much as there was a need for a Crusade at all?

Plus, the Golden Order pretty much ruled the entire continent on the map (technically even shackling the Liurnians), with the exception of the Land of Shadow (which might be an island somewhere in the middle portion of the map.)

But Marika wanted that so-called forgotten backwater place too, for reasons her people do not know.

Maybe, at the time, the people thought Messmer and his followers were rabid zealots and Marika was pressured into the decision? Or that he started a Crusade without her express permission?

Then Messmer's Crusade is effectively sent away and cut off, forgotten and kept out of sight, out of mind.

And then.

And then after that Godwyn is assassinated, and shortly after the Shattering happens, which might be the biggest and most wretched series of battles the Lands Between has ever witnessed.

Which is some very fucked up and hilarious irony.

Maybe the question we should be asking is why Marika took so long to decide to wipe out the Hornsent.

Why didn't she do it during the early days of the Erdtree Order, when the Crucible aspects were competiting for dominance? Why do it when society's values have changed?

Was this actually one of the things that started the disagreement between her and Radagon?

[the17thmuse]

I know you wanna marry him; here's why you can't (yet)

Aka more details about the impalement on Messmer's Crusade banner/sigil and also his ring

Impalement is a heraldic practice in which two coats of arms are combined in one shield to denote a union. Generally.

More specifically, it is associated with the marshalling of arms which, refers to the combination of two or more coats of arms onto a single shield. The impaled shield is bisected in pale (that is, by a vertical line) with each half of the shield displaying a complete coat of arms.

This is often used to represent family alliances through marriage or inheritance or occupation of office, or display unions with an ecclesiastical office, academic position, government office, or mystical union.

Impalement in heraldry: on the dexter side of the escutcheon/shield, the position of greatest honour, are placed the arms of the husband (baron), with the paternal arms of the wife (femme) on the sinister.

In the most basic terms, Messmer's Crusade sigil can be seen as the union of his forces and Marika's, specifically the Black Knights.

But more specifically, the impaled sigil of Messmer's Crusade follows the ecclesiastical heraldry of either a bishop or a king-at-arms:

In ecclesiastical heraldry, a bishop's coat of arms might show the arms of their diocese/see/official arms on the dexter (left) side of greater honour, and their hereditary/family arms on the sinister (right) side. A King-at-Arms might show the insignia of their office on the dexter side and their family arms on the sinister. 

An episcopal see is the area of a bishop's ecclesiastical jurisdiction.

In church governance, a diocese, also known as a bishopric, is the territorial area under the jurisdiction of a bishop, encompassing churches and parishes overseen by that bishop. A diocese is a geographical region where a bishop has authority and responsibility for the spiritual care and governance of the Catholic faithful within that area. 

A king-at-arms is synonymous to king-of-arms, first recorded in the 15th century, originating from the late Middle English phrase "king of armes". It refers to the highest rank of heraldic officer, with the authority to grant armorial bearings (coats of arms) and sometimes certify genealogies and noble titles to individuals and organizations. Besides Kings of Arms, other heraldic officers include heralds and pursuivants.

Messmer might not be filling in the role of the exiled firstborn. A facet of his archetype—a combination of charismatic/friendly or sympathetic monster, cursed royal/reverse lindworm prince, soldier fighting in distant lands/stranded soldier, puppet tyrant—might be the forbidden hot priest, emphasis on the "forbidden" with its own Fromsoft flavor.

Yes, I know, messners/churchwardens are not really priests but volunteers, bishops are the priests, and kings-at-arms are heraldic officers.

Marika being both god and queen makes this complicated. We don't actually know what exact rank and position (or combination of) she gave Messmer. (Except that he is apparently a Ser, which is usually used for knights.)

Anyway, Rellana chasing after Messmer can be seen as a play on the passionate maiden going after an emotionally unavailable priest. And obviously it didn't work out that way.

She instead became his loyal sword/blade and they became neighbors, exactly like the relationship of the Astronomers and Fire Giants as depicted in the Sword of Night and Flame.

And Messmer wears his ring in his middle finger happily stating his singleness and that his purpose, identity, life goal, self-worth and responsibility/duty is tied to the Crusade.

You want to rescue romance this man so bad, you make sure he loses his seal of grace, his armor, cape and ESPECIALLY his ring and replace it with yours, okay.

You put a ring on his finger and tell him his Crusade is over. His duty is done, he can rest and he and his army can return home. His purpose is changed and you will happily provide him a new one.

But be good and let him find himself first before you court him, yeah?

[the17thmuse]

snakes in a trenchcoat

Messmer is not only a shapeshifter but also a Worm that Walks situation (or is turning into one)?

Someone will likely have a better and clearer view because my phone camera magnification is on max. But.

Remember that Base Serpent Messmer dissolves into dark wispy goo to switch between man and snake and vice versa? And that he uses that same weird goo to open holes in space to summon abyssal serpents?

It turns out it isn't all goo or dark wisps or haze at all. They're also abyssal serpents.

Look. They even have cute little red eyes (that look like fuschia because of the transparency) and wrap around Messmer and stuff.

Messmer can be a man or a serpent—the both forms are composed of a mass of smaller fleshy snakes from the inside—and he dissolves into a mass of smaller snakes and goo when switching between those two forms.

Exhibit A

Exhibit B

Despite being its own separate thing, his situation reminded me a bit of the shapeshifters from the Malazan Book of the Fallen.

Malazan has two types of shapeshifters: D'ivers and Soletaken. Soletaken can turn into one form only and are your usual idea of shapeshifters. Think skinchangers and werebeasts but no full moon factor.

D'ivers (which may be a play on the word "diverse") is the higher order of shapeshifter than Soletaken. They can take on several different forms, from a single form to even a group or swarm of smaller forms. Think Dracula who can turn into a wolf or a swarm of bats, or Bayonetta (and other Umbra Witch characters) who can turn into a bunch of different animals and even a swarm of bats and insects.

And I keep thinking, if Fromsoft went a different direction, Messmer might have had a move/stage that reduces him to a mass of snakes, goo and fire that will swarm you. And the mere idea is making my skin crawl.

[the17thmuse]

size difference does matter, yes

The size difference between Serpent Messmer and his Abyssal Serpent summons/attacks has always lurked at the back of my brain, but things finally went to a head today because of this random video:

Was it actually extreme sexual dimorphism all along?

[clockwise: Base Messmer serpent form and abyssal serpent courtesy of BonfireVN's video; male (small green) and female (larger yellow and black) Wagler's pit viper; (large) female garter snake with several (smaller) males from the video posted); male and female pythons from ball-pythons.net]

Generally, in snake species that do exhibit sexual dimorphism (differences in appearance between the sexes), the males are more brightly colored, or the females are larger.

Mind you, this is in general and does not apply to every snake species. But, with snakes that do form mating balls (like the ones sealed behind Messmer's eye seal)—which include garter snakes, pythons and anacondas—the females tend to be larger and heaver than the males (with rare exceptions).

I cannot get it out of my head. Serpent Messmer has always been female in my head symbolically and otherwise (because dark/black/serpent/spirit/yin is female/feminine), but it feels a bit more official now, I guess?

[the17thmuse]

I didn't think I'd ever make this list, but it exists now.

Messmer and Rennala similarities:

Gangly porportions (small head, wide shoulders, long limbs)

Darkening elements of eclipse (mythological chaos serpent or dragon that swallows the sun/moon that eclipses the sun)

Closely associated with mysterious disembodied one-eyed redhead girls (Melina/Ranni) connected to specifically named blades (blade of calling/fingerslaying blade)

Blinded by love for golden Marika/Radagon, who screwed them over (not helped that Radagon is Marika)

Depressed and kept in a guarded chamber

Have cutscenes that begin with the player entering a dark room, and includes a jumpscare by a snake/kid and a candlelight reveal

Second phase full of terror and the urge to run

Survived an attempted coup (Black Knights and Raya Lucaria/Cuckoo Knights)

Rellana both followed them and could not help them at all

Fixated on the very last thing left/given to them (the Cleansing Crusade and the Amber Egg)

they only want things to return back to happier times, before they were abandoned

Why did you leave me. Please come back

[the17thmuse]

different names, different rules.

Everyone: going nuts on Nightreign gameplay and lore.

Me: Night Lords are Elden Lords. Under a different system, different god-vassal and different god(?)

Night instead of Order—Night Lords are equivalent to Elden Lords...

Placidusax is not an Elden Lord but an equivalent of one...Dragonlord Placidusax is a Dragonlord under a Dragon God? Or a Stormlord?

Godfrey once defeated a Storm Lord. Stormlord under a Storm God?

Hornsent and Hinterlander/Highlander both use storm elements but only the former possesses Crucible Traits: horns—from two concurrent or close Ages maybe?

And before the Hornsent are the Fire Giants and the Fell God...Firelords under the Fire God...?

Lords of (Frenzied) Flame?

Was there a Dark/Shadow/Abysslord under a Dark/Shadow/Abyss God too...

...

...

...

You know, Godfrey being the First ELDEN Lord makes more sense now.