I Write About Everything Music

Here you will learn about music as I learn about it.

[theferretgeneral]

Beethoven and Other Composers

This is a collection of Beethoven’s thoughts on other composers as well as other composers’ thoughts on him. This list currently focuses on some of Beethoven’s contemporaries as of September 16, 2021. This will be updated in the future. There will be a second (and maybe more) post in the future containing many more composers I left out here. If anyone has any more information on these people, leave it below! If anyone knows any other composers’ thoughts on Beethoven or vice versa that I did not mention, please let me know! Also, please inform me if I have made any errors in this post.

(Post updated October 1 and October 20)

(https://images.app.goo.gl/kahgbDzLCf2TiYZi8)

Cherubini

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Beethoven on Cherubini

Beethoven and Cherubini met in Vienna in 1805. Beethoven loved Cherubini’s music and appropriated aspects of his style. When Beethoven was asked who, apart from himself, he thought was the greatest living composer, he paused a little startled and then said “Cherubini”. Beethoven had also said another time that Cherubini was “Europe’s foremost dramatic composer.”

Beethoven wrote to Cherubini in 1823, “I am enraptured whenever I hear a new work of yours and feel as great an interest an it as in my own works—in brief, I honor and love you.”

Beethoven loved Cherubini’s Requiem in C minor, he even wanted it performed at his funeral.

Beethoven sent Cherubini a letter around the time of writing his Missa Solemnis, but apparently Cherubini never got it.

Beethoven wrote to Cherubini, “I prize your works more than all others written for the stage.”

Beethoven said to Louis Schlasser, “Say all conceivable pretty things to Cherubini,—that there is nothing I so ardently desire as that we should soon get another opera from him, and that of all our contemporaries I have the highest regard for him.”

According to Seyfried, Beethoven said, “Among all composers alive Cherubini is the most worthy of respect. I am in complete agreement, too, with his conception of the ‘Requiem,’ and if ever I come to write one I shall take note of many things.”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/JUm1npSP3smEEeKMA)

Cherubini on Beethoven

Cherubini didn’t like Beethoven. He described Beethoven as “an unlicked bear cub” and said that his style was rough. He also said that Beethoven was “brusque.” He attended the first performance of Beethoven’s Fidelio and didn’t really like it.

Franz Joseph Haydn

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Beethoven on Haydn

Haydn was Beethoven’s teacher. He started teaching Beethoven in 1792. He was dealing with a teenage/young adult Beethoven, so Beethoven was obviously going to be difficult.

Beethoven was horrified when Haydn suggested that he write “pupil of Haydn” underneath his name on Op. 1 Piano Trios as a marketing trick. Beethoven felt that he learned nothing from Haydn so he did not write that he was a “pupil of Haydn” on Op. 1 Piano Trios.

Haydn suggested that Beethoven should not publish the third of the piano trios (C minor trio) because it would not have much public acceptance. Beethoven was offended at this remark because he believed that the third piano trio was the best of the set. He believed that Haydn envied the C minor trio.

This event clearly did not soil their relationship since Beethoven dedicated his next opus to Haydn.

On Haydn’s 76th birthday, Beethoven knelt down before Haydn and fervently kissed the hands and forehead of Haydn.

Ries said, “While composing Beethoven frequently thought of an object, although he often laughed at musical delineation and scolded about petty things of the sort. In this respect, “The Creation” and “The Seasons” were many times a butt, though without depreciation of Haydn’s loftier merits. Haydn’s choruses and other works were loudly praised by Beethoven.”

Beethoven said, “Do not tear the laurel wreaths from the heads of Handel, Haydn, and Mozart; they belong to them,—not yet to me.”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/4CZdMUYJb9zcWJaD9)

Haydn on Beethoven

Haydn had an interest of taking Beethoven on his second trip to London.

Haydn genuinely liked Beethoven’s compositions and wished the best for him. When they met for the first time, Beethoven showed him his WoO 87 (Cantatas on the Death of Emperor Joseph II) and WoO O88 (Elevation of Emperor Leopold II) and Haydn was very impressed.

Haydn wrote a letter to the Elector Max Franz and said that Beethoven would fill the position of the greatest musicians in Europe. He also said that he wished Beethoven could stay with him longer.

Haydn called Beethoven “Der große Mogul” behind his back. He was basically calling Beethoven “big shot.”

Beethoven’s friend Ferdinand Ries said this, “I knew [all of Beethoven’s teachers] well; all three valued Beethoven highly, but were also of one mind touching his habits of study. All of them said Beethoven was so headstrong and self-sufficient (selbstwollend) that he had to learn much through harsh experience which he had refused to accept when it was presented to him as a subject of study.”

Haydn said to Beethoven, “You have a lot of talent and you will acquire even more, a lot more. You have an inexhaustible abundance of inspiration, you will have thoughts no one else has had, you will never sacrifice your thoughts to tyrannical rule, but you will sacrifice the rules to your fantasies. You give me the impression of a man who has many heads, many hearts, many souls.” (I read this on the French Wikipedia so if the translation is iffy, I am very sorry)

Johann Nepomuk Hummel

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Beethoven on Hummel

For some time, Beethoven and Hummel were friends. However, after some incidents, they became less close.

Beethoven wished for Hummel to improvise at his memorial concert.

Hummel made keyboard arrangements of Beethoven’s works and Beethoven did not agree with it. He disliked the style of Hummel’s arrangements.

Beethoven and Hummel had two completely different piano playing philosophies. This caused them to butt heads many times.

According to Carl Czerny, Beethoven’s student, Beethoven’s fans thought that “Hummel lacked all real imagination, his playing was monotonous as a hurdy-gurdy, the application of his fingers was like a garden spider, and his compositions were mere arrangements of themes by Mozart and Haydn.”

Ignaz von Mosel, an Austrian court official, composer, and musician, commented on the differences between Beethoven’s and Hummel’s styles. He said, “Herr Louis van Beethoven, whose playing is marked by velocity, power and precision, even more by his compositions, while Herr Joh. Nepomuk Hummel’s is recognized by it’s order, clarity and grace.”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/CBU3vHFuu2iCt8D3A)

Hummel on Beethoven

Beethoven’s arrival in Vienna is said to have shattered Hummel’s self-confidence.

Hummel said about Beethoven, “I readily admit that today Ludwig is far superior to me as a composer. But probably not as a virtuoso at the piano.”

Beethoven was commissioned by Prince Nikolaus II Esterhazy to write a mass. Beethoven wrote his Mass in C and it was performed in Eisenstadt were Hummel was Kapellmeister. The performance did not go well and the prince made a comment behind Beethoven’s back which Hummel reportedly laughed at.

When Beethoven was one his deathbed, Hummel traveled all the way from Weimar to Vienna to see Beethoven. Hummel visited Beethoven three times on his death bed.

On Beethoven’s death bed, Hummel got Beethoven’s signature so Hummel could protect his compositions from illegal copying.

Hummel was present at Beethoven’s funeral. He was a pallbearer.

According to Czerny, Hummel’s fans “reproached Beethoven that he abused the fortepiano, that he was deficient in purity and clarity, that he, through the use of the pedal, only produced confused noise, that his compositions were far-fetched, unnatural, without melody and irregular.”

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

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Beethoven on Mozart

Young Beethoven played Mozart’s piano concertos in Bonn and was heavily influenced by him. Young Beethoven once thought he accidentally plagiarized off Mozart. He wrote a passage in C minor and under it wrote, “This entire passage has been stolen from Mozart Symphony in C, where the Andante in 6/8 from the... [he stopped writing here].” He wrote the supposedly plagiarized passage below the text, however, no such passage was ever found in a Mozart symphony that we know of.

Beethoven meet Mozart in Vienna in 1787. According to Ignaz von Seyfried, this is what happened:

“Beethoven made a short stay at Vienna, in the year 1790, whither he had gone for the sake of hearing Mozart, to whom he had letters of introduction. Beethoven improvised before Mozart, who listened with some indifference, believing it to be a piece learned by heart. Beethoven then demanded, with his characteristic ambition, a given theme to work out; Mozart, with a sceptical smile, gave him at once a chromatic motivo for a fugue, in which, al rovescio, the countersubject for a double fugue lay concealed. Beethoven was not intimidated, and worked out the subject, the secret intention of which he immediately perceived, at great length and with such remarkable originality and power that Mozart's attention was rivetted, and his wonder so excited that he stepped softly into the adjoining room where some friends were assembled, and whispered to them with sparkling eyes: ‘Don't lose sight of this young man, he will one day tell you some things that will surprise you!”

You can read Hummel’s perspective on Mozart and Beethoven’s meeting here: https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2020/01/27/beethoven-meets-mozart/ (Warning! It’s long.)

Beethoven said Mozart had “a fine but choppy way of playing, no legato.”

Though he wasn’t exactly bashing Mozart’s operas, he believed that he would never write music to librettos with similar themes to Mozart’s. He said, “I need a text which stimulates me; it must be something moral, uplifting. Texts such as Mozart composed I should never have been able fo set to music. I could never have got myself into a mood for such licentious texts. I have received many librettos, but, as I said, none that met my wishes.”

I’m putting this quote I already showed in the Haydn part too: “Do not tear the laurel wreaths from the heads of Handel, Haydn, and Mozart; they belong to them,—not yet to me.”

Beethoven said, “I have always reckoned myself myself among the greatest admirers of Mozart, and shall do so till the day of my death.”

Beethoven said this to Cramer after hearing Mozart’s piano concerto in C minor: “Cramer! Cramer! We shall never be able to compose anything like that!”

Beethoven said according to Seyfried, “‘Die Zauberflöte’ will always remain Mozart’s greatest work, for in it he for the first time showed himself to be a great German musician. ‘Don Juan’ still has the complete Italian cut; besides our sacred art ought never permit itself to be degraded to the level of foil for so scandalous a subject.”

The Baronin Born asked Beethoven what his favorite Mozart opera was and he said it was ‘Die Zauberflöte.’

(https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ludwig-van-Beethoven)

Mozart on Beethoven

When Mozart heard Beethoven play for the first time, he said, “Mark that young man, he will make a name for himself in the world.”

Mozart died shortly after Beethoven came to Vienna so they did not get to interact much.

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Second Part: https://theferretgeneral.tumblr.com/post/662537492215496704/beethoven-and-other-composers-part-two (Schubert and Rossini)

Third Part: https://theferretgeneral.tumblr.com/post/662710737497735168/beethoven-and-other-composers-and-musicians-part

Fourth Part: https://theferretgeneral.tumblr.com/post/669959288702337024/what-did-brahms-liszt-and-schumann-think-of

Sources:

Beethoven and Haydn: Their Relationship. ClassicFM. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethoven-and-haydn-their-relationship/

Did Beethoven Meet Mozart? ClassicFM, 6 March 2018. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethoven-and-mozart/

Haydn and Beethoven. Popular Beethoven. https://www.popularbeethoven.com/haydn-and-beethoven/

Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837) - Reproduktion eines Schabkunstblattes, vielleicht von Franz Wrenk. B 1618, Beethoven-Haus Bönn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/4767400939487232/Johann+Nepomuk+Hummel+%281778-1837%29+-+Reproduktion+eines+Schabkunstblattes%2C+vielleicht+von+Franz+Wrenk?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Jones, Rhys. Beethoven and the Sound of the Revolution in Vienna, 1792-1814. Cambridge University, 12 November 2014.

Luigi Cherubini (1760-1842) - Stich von Friedrich Wilhelm Bollinger. B 2383, Beethoven-Haus Bönn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/5065980724117504/Luigi+Cherubini+%281760-1842%29+-+Stich+von+Friedrich+Wilhelm+Bollinger?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven to His Fellow Musicians. Interlude, 22 September 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians/

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven to His Fellow Musicians II. Interlude, 20 October, 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians-ii/

Salieri and Beethoven. Popular Beethoven. https://www.popularbeethoven.com/salieri-and-beethoven/

Seiffert, Wolf-Dieter. Beethoven meets Mozart. The genesis of Beethoven’s Mozart Variations WoO 40 according to Johann Nepomuk Hummel’s memoirs (first published). G. Henle Verlag, 27 January 2020. https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2020/01/27/beethoven-meets-mozart/

Somlai, Petra. Two Viennese piano schools: Beethoven and Hummel. Royal Conservatory, 2019. https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/555906/559358

[theferretgeneral]

What Did Brahms, Liszt, and Schumann Think of Beethoven?

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This is the fourth part to my series. See the other parts here:

Part I (Cherubini, Haydn, Hummel, Mozart)

Part II (Schubert, Rossini)

Part III (Salieri, Weber, Clementi, Sedlatzek, Paganini)

(So sorry it took so long! It was so hard to find information and I was busy with school.)

This contains a few other composers’ thoughts on Beethoven as well as personal accounts of him and other related things. This one took really long to make since it was really hard to find some of these things.

If anyone has any more information, please let me know because it was really difficult to find info for these guys! If there are any errors, please inform me so I can correct them.

Johannes Brahms - Composer, Pianist, Conductor

Brahms said, “You have no idea of how it feels - always to heat the tramp of such a giant [Beethoven] behind you.”

This is Brahms’ thoughts on some of Beethoven’s pieces: “I always find Beethoven’s C minor concerto much smaller and weaker than Mozart’s... I realize that Beethoven’s new personality and his new vision, which people recognized in his works, made him the greater composer in their minds. But after fifty years, our views need more perspective. One must be able to distinguish between the charm that comes from newness and the value that is intrinsic to a work. I admit that Beethoven’s concerto is more modern, but not more significant!

I also realize that Beethoven’s First Symphony made a strong impression on people. That’s the nature of a new vision. But the last there Mozart symphonies are far more significant... Yes, the Rasumovsky quartets, the later symphonies - these inhabit a significant new world, one already hinted at in his Second Symphony. But what is weaker in Beethoven compared to Mozart, and especially compared to Sebastian Bach, is the use of dissonance. Dissonance, true dissonance as Mozart used it, is not to be found in Beethoven. Look at Idomene. Not only is it a marvel, but as Mozart was still quite young and brash when he completed it, it was a completely new thing. What marvelous dissonance! What harmony! You couldn’t commission great music from Beethoven since he created only lesser works on commission - his more conventional pieces, his variations, and the like. When Haydn or Mozart wrote on commission, it was the same as their other works.”

Brahms had a marble bust of Beethoven in the place where he composed.

Brahms quoted Ode to Joy in his first symphony. When someone pointed this and other Beethovenian qualities out to him, he said, “Any ass can hear that.”

Brahms first symphony was so Beethovenian that critics called it “Beethoven’s 10th.”

Brahms wrote a letter to Clara Schumann saying, “I sent my finest things to the Beethoven exhibition in Bonn without taking any precautions, and the Berlin Library also sent its greatest treasures—I had seen these a year previously in Bologna.” (Any more info on what he exactly sent?)

Franz Liszt - Composer, Pianist, Conductor

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Liszt said to Wilhelm von Lenz in 1852, “To us musicians the work of Beethoven parallels the pillars of smoke and fire that led the Israelites through the desert, a pillar of smoke to lead us by day, and a pillar of fire to light the night, so that we may march ahead both day and night. His darkness and his light equally trace for us the road we must follow; both the one and the other are a perpetual commandment, an infallible revelation. If it were up to me to categorize the diverse states of thought of the great master as manifested in his sonatas, symphonies, quartets, I should hardly stop at the division into three styles generally adopted today, and which you have followed, but ... would frankly weigh the big question that is the crux of criticism and musical aesthetics to the point where Beethoven led us: that is, how much traditional, conventional form necessarily determines organization of thought.

The solution of this question, as it is derived from Beethoven’s works, would lead me to divide his works, not into three styles or periods (style and period being here only corollary, subordinate terms, of vague and equivocal significance), but very logically until two categories: one in which the traditional and conventional form contains and rules thought, and the other in which thought recreates and fashions a form and style appropriate to its needs and inspiration. Undoubtedly, in proceeding thus, we shall encounter head-on those perennial problems of authority and freedom. But why should that frighten us? In the liberal arts, fortunately, they entail none of the dangers and disasters that their fluctuations occasion in the political and social world, for in the realm of the beautiful, genius alone is the authority, dualism disappears, and the concepts of authority and liberty are restored to their original identity. Manzoni, in defining genius as “a greater borrowing from God,” has eloquently expressed this truth.”

Liszt also said, “In Egmont we discover one of the first examples in modern times of the great composer drawing his inspiration directly from the work of a great poet. As insecure and unsteady as Beethoven’s steps may appear to us in this, his first attempt, so in his own time were they brave and significant.”

Liszt said that Beethoven gave him a Weihekuss (“Kiss of consecration”) at Liszt’s concert in 1823. This may be untrue though since Beethoven was very deaf at that point.

When Liszt was eleven years old, his teacher Carl Czerny (he was a student of Beethoven) badgered Beethoven about meeting little Liszt. Beethoven refused because he did not like prodigies. Eventually, he did agree to see Liszt. He said, “Then for God’s sake — bring the little rascal!” When they entered Beethoven’s house, Liszt became very shy but Czerny encouraged him to go talk to Beethoven. Beethoven was sitting by the window doing his work. He turned around with a very serious face, said a few things to Czerny, and then remained silent and serious as Czerny told Liszt to go to the piano.

Liszt played a piece by Ries. After he had finished it, Beethoven asked him to play a fugue by Bach. Liszt played the C minor fugue from Well-Tempered Clavier and when he was finished Beethoven asked him to transpose it. Liszt transposed the piece and after he finished he looked up. Beethoven’s very serious face turned into a cheery smile and he approached Liszt. He stroked his head several times in affection and said, “Well — I’ll be blowed. Such a little devil.” Liszt asked Beethoven, “May I play one of your pieces?” Beethoven nodded with a smile. Liszt played his C major piano concerto. After he finished, Beethoven stretched out his arms, kissed him on his forehead and said in a soft voice: “You go on ahead. You are one of the lucky ones! It will be your destiny to bring joy and delight to many people and that is the greatest happiness one can achieve.”

Liszt was affected deeply by this event. He told this story rarely and when he did his voice trembled and he said it with great emotion. He said, “This was the proudest moment in my life — the inauguration to my life as artist. I tell this very rarely — and only to special friends.” He also said, “This event in my life has remained my greatest pride, the palladium of my whole career as an artist.”

Liszt made a complete edition of all of Beethoven’s sonatas.

Liszt had said that he had performed 10 Beethoven piano sonatas in public. 

Liszt helped raise money for a Beethoven statue in Münster Square in Bonn in 1845. He donated, campaigned, and helped put up the statue. He said, “That must be celebrated.” The very first Beethovenfest happened in August 1845.

Liszt composed a cantata called “Cantata for the inauguration of the Beethoven Monument at Bonn” on May 12th, 1845.

Liszt composed a second cantata for Beethoven called “Zur Säkularfeier Beethovens” around 1869-1870.

Liszt had an entire Beethoven concert hall made in just eleven days.

Liszt had a portrait of Beethoven in his room.

(https://images.app.goo.gl/V5NGum3usBrvicTM6 You can see the portrait in the back)

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Robert Schumann - Composer, Pianist, Critic

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Robert Schumann thought that Beethoven was a great melody maker. He said this about melody and mentioned Beethoven in it, “Melody is the battle-cry of amateurs, and certainly music without melody is nothing. Understand, however, what these persons mean by it: a simple, flowing and pleasing tune; this is enough to satisfy them. There are, however, others of a different sort, and whenever you open Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, or any real master, their melodies meet you in a thousand different shapes. I trust you will soon be tired of the inferior melodies, especially those out of the new Italian operas; and of all vulgar ones.”

According to Caesuramag, Schumann loved Beethoven’s music very much but had some problems with his fanatics. He did not agree with the people who dismissed Beethoven’s “Fury over a Lost Penny.” He said about the piece, “It would be difficult to find anything merrier than this whim... It is the most amiable, harmless anger, similar to that felt when one cannot pull a shoe from off the foot.”

Schumann offered the money he made from Fantasie Op. 17 to help raise money for Beethoven’s memorial in Bonn.

In Schumann’s young teenage years, he had a great interest in Beethoven, Schubert, and Mendelssohn.

Schumann tried to revive the works of great composers of the past. One of those composers was Beethoven.

Schumann wrote this in his letters: “I shall never agree with [Heinrich] Dron, who is bent on persuading me that a fugue is the whole of music. How very different people are constituted! Yet I admit that the theoretical

Schumann wrote to Simonin de Sire, “Need I apologize for writing in German? Really, my French will not do for anything beyond Herz and Hünten. Beethoven demands my mother-tongue.”

He also wrote to him, “...I keep my eyes fixed on my great examples, Bach and Beethoven, whose far-off images give unfailing help and encouragement.”

Schumann considered Beethoven’s symphonies as the greatest achievement in instrumental music. He considered Schubert’s C major symphony “the greatest achievement in instrumental music” since then. He said “the scoring is worthy of Beethoven.”

Schumann said, “I give several hours daily to the serious study of Bach and Beethoven, outside my own studies.”

He encouraged young composers to study Beethoven, as well as Bach and Mozart. For example, he said to Ludwig Meinardus, “My advice, then, is: keep your love for art; practice yourself in composition as much as possible; hold fast to the great models and masters, especially to Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven, not forgetting the present in which you live in. But before you decide to follow the career on which your heart is set, subject yourself to the severest self-examination, and if you find you are not strong enough to defy its troubles and dangers, then seek a firm foundation, which you can always adorn with the pictures of your fancy and with those of your most loved artists.”

Schumann encouraged his children to play Beethoven, Mozart, and pieces from his Jugendalbum.

(Anyone know of a good English translation of Neue Zeitschrift für Musik? I believe there will be more information for Schumann’s thoughts on Beethoven there. I tried to read a free German one, but my German isn’t very good and the font was so weird. Thanks!)

Sources:

“Beethoven and His Contemporaries.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 24 May 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_his_contemporaries

Duchen, Jessica. Beethoven and...Robert and Clara Schumann. Unbound, 13 September 2019. https://unbound.com/books/immortal/updates/beethoven-and-robert-and-clara-schumann

“Johannes Brahms.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 5 September 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johannes_Brahms

Fisk, Josiah. Composers on Music: Eight Centuries of Writings. Northeastern University Press, 1956.

Franz Liszt: cantata for the inauguration of the Beethoven Monument at Bonn. LvBeethoven. www.lvbeethoven.com/Bio/BiographyCantataLiszt.html

Fulker, Rick. Beethoven and Liszt were soulmates, says Beethovenfest director. Deutsche Welle. https://www.dw.com/en/beethoven-and-liszt-were-soulmates-says-beethovenfest-director/a-15375894

Hagood, Erin. Disjecta Membra: Robert Schumann on Beethoven. Caesura, 10 May 2021. https://caesuramag.org/posts/robert-schumann-on-beethoven

“Robert Schumann.” Wikipedia, Wikimedia Foundation, 22 September 2021. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schumann

Schumann, Robert. Advice to Young Musicians. Raro Press, 1 May 2010.

Storck, Karl. The letters of Robert Schumann. Translated by Hannah Bryant, London, J. Murray, 1907.

[dopamine-droplets]

Drinking Game, Wagner and Liszt letters edition

Well, the editor suggested turning their letters into a fun game so here we go. Take a shot every time …

Wagner asks Liszt for money

Wagner asks for an impossible favour

Liszt says he can’t send him anything but ends up sending him money anyway

Wagner laments how poor and miserable and misunderstood he is

Wagner explains why he can’t work on his projects

Wagner asks for a favour and his reasoning is that Liszt is the only person he can do it

Wagner’s requests are preceded or followed by love bombing

The love bombing works

Wagner completely forgets to even ask Liszt how he’s doing and instead jumps straight into talking about his projects at length

Wagner says something antisemitic

Wagner hates on the French

Wagner says something sexist

Don’t actually play this game. It’s not a fun game. It will land you in the hospital. 

[cactustaffy]

Daily Mendelssohn Trivia

Schumann’s (Robert) comment upon meeting Mendelssohn: “Mendelssohn is a glorious fellow, a diamond straight from heaven!”

My personal favorite comment about Mendelssohn.

[theferretgeneral]

Beethoven and Other Composers and Musicians Part III

This is a third part to my list. I decided not to do this as a reblog and instead as its own separate post. I did not have much information for some of these people, so if anyone has any more information, please let me know! If there are any errors, also let me know!

(Updated October 1)

Antonio Salieri - Composer

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Beethoven on Salieri

Salieri was one of Beethoven’s teachers. Beethoven wanted to study with him mainly vocal composition.

Beethoven did not believe Salieri killed Mozart as rumors spread about Salieri’s possible, but highly unlikely, involvement in Mozart’s death. He knew his former teacher well so he did not believe in the rumors that were being spread.

Beethoven’s third violin sonata was dedicated to Salieri.

Beethoven composed variations on Salieri’s themes.

Beethoven asked Salieri to look over his score for Fidelio. Salieri gave him some recommendations, but Beethoven just kept the piece the same.

Beethoven complained about Salieri's presentation of a charity concert that played some of Beethoven’s music. Beethoven said, "Herr Salieri, being my most active opponent, played me a horrible trick"

Salieri was very anti-German. Beethoven made this ironic remark about him. He said, "Salieri, the Court Kapellmeister, who is all-powerful at court and a patriarch of his good intentions for German vocal music and German singers"

Salieri was at the performance of Beethoven’s Wellington’s Victory. Beethoven wrote a letter to the Wiener Zeitung thanking everyone involved with the performance including “a certain Kapellmeister, Salieri by name, who did not disdain to give the beat to the drums and cannonades”

Beethoven was very concerned about Salieri when Salieri was on his deathbed.

Beethoven liked joining in on gossip about Salieri’s unmarried daughters. (Any info on what the gossip was on?)

(https://images.app.goo.gl/jFh4C8jtagdjFpwH9)

Salieri on Beethoven

Beethoven’s friend Ferdinand Ries said this, “I knew [all of Beethoven’s teachers] well; all three valued Beethoven highly, but were also of one mind touching his habits of study. All of them said Beethoven was so headstrong and self-sufficient (selbstwollend) that he had to learn much through harsh experience which he had refused to accept that when it was presented to him as a subject of study.”

Salieri directed a benefit concert and allowed Beethoven to play one of his piano concertos at in March 1795.

Salieri conducted Beethoven’s music very often.

(Does anyone have any quotes from Salieri about Beethoven? Thanks in advance!)

Carl Maria von Weber - Composer, Pianist, Guitarist

(https://images.app.goo.gl/4zxnk48Yo5cGmNik8)

Beethoven on Weber

Beethoven respected Weber, however he did not like his music as much as he liked Cherubini’s music.

Beethoven’s opinion on Weber was originally negative, but he changed his opinions on him after Weber wrote his opera “Der Freischütz.”

Beethoven said, “Weber must now write operas, nothing but operas.”

Beethoven said that Weber was a “poor weak little mannikin.”

Beethoven said, “The little man, otherwise so gentle,—I never would have credited him with such a thing. Now Weber mist write operas in earnest, one after the other, without caring too much for refinement!”

Beethoven greeted Weber in October 1823 saying, “There you are, you rascal; you’re a devil of a fellow, God bless you!... Weber, you were always a fine fellow.”

According to Seyfried, Beethoven said, “Weber began to learn too late; art did not have a chance to develop naturally in him, and his single and obvious striving is to appear brilliant.” This is quite a strange remark considering Beethoven started playing at 5 and Weber did before he was 4.

According to Schindler, Beethoven said, “‘Euryanthe’ is an accumulation of diminished seventh chords—all little backdoors!”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/1Xa4dzESjs18wgh59)

Weber on Beethoven

Weber said that Beethoven was “ripe for the madhouse.” According to Schindler, Beethoven said this in reference to the remark: “If it amuses them to talk an write about me in that manner, let them go on.”

Weber published this satire about Beethoven’s Symphony No. 4, “I have just come from the rehearsal of a Symphony by one of our newest composers; and though, as you know, I have a tolerably strong constitution, I could only just hold out, and five minutes more would have shattered my frame and burst the sinews of my life. I have been made to caper about like a wild goat, and to turn myself into a mere fiddle to execute the no-ideas of Mr. Composer… The first violoncello (bathed in perspiration) says that for his part he is too tired to speak, and can recollect nothing like the warming he has had since he played in Cherubini’s last opera. The second violoncello is of opinion that the Symphony is a musical monstrosity, revolting alike to the nature of the instruments and the expression of thought, and with no intention whatever but that of mere show-off… First a slow movement full of short disjointed unconnected ideas, at the rate of three or four notes per quarter of an hour; then a mysterious roll of the drum and passage of the violas, seasoned with the proper quantity of pauses and ritardandos; and to end all a furious finale, in which the only requisite is that there should be no ideas for the hearer to make out, but plenty of transitions from one key to another—on to the new note at once! Never mind modulating!—above all things, throw rules to the winds, for they only hamper a genius.”

Weber eventually began to like Beethoven’s music. He started to play and conduct it.

Beethoven asked Julius Benedict to invite Weber to meet him at Baden when Weber was in Vienna. Weber accepted the invitation. Weber wrote, “[Beethoven] received me with the most touching affection; he embraced me at least six or seven times in the heartiest fashion and finally, full of enthusiasm, cried: ‘Yes, you are a devil of a fellow, a fine fellow!’”

Weber said this on how Beethoven treated him when they met, “We spent the noon hour together, very merrily and happily. This rough man actually paid court to me, served me at table carefully as though I were his lady, etc.“

Weber visited Beethoven in 1823 and asked him to look at the score of his opera Euryanthe. He wanted Beethoven to give him corrections in order to “redeem it from the unfortunate reception that its first performance had elicited.” Beethoven refused to look at it and said that the revisions should have been made before the opera had been performed.

Weber performed Beethoven’s Fidelio in Prague in 1814 and in Dresden in 1823.

Muzio Clementi - Composer, Pianist, Publisher, Piano Manufacturer

(https://images.app.goo.gl/WMoGX2VjD7vq9oiC6)

Beethoven on Clementi

Beethoven said, “They who thoroughly study Clementi, at the same time make themselves acquainted with Mozart and other composers; but the converse is not the fact.”

Both of them ate at the same restaurant in Vienna called “The Swan.” They saw each other there, but never really interacted despite both of them liking each other’s music.

Beethoven’s themes in his music sometimes resemble those of Clementi’s. Some biographers of Clementi have pointed this out.

Beethoven loved Clementi’s sonatas and sonatinas. He even wanted his nephew Karl to play the pieces. According to Anton Schindler, “[Beethoven] had the greatest admiration for these sonatas, considering them the most beautiful, the most pianistic of works, both for their lovely, pleasing, original melodies and for the consistent, easily followed form of each movement. The musical education of his beloved nephew was confined for many years almost exclusively to the playing of clementi sonatas.”

Schindler also had this to say, “Among all the masters who have written for piano, Beethoven assigned to clementi the very foremost rank. He considered his works excellent as studies for practice, for the formation of a pure taste, and as truly beautiful subjects for performance.”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/MHv5ErKa8hRejqUQ9)

Clementi on Beethoven

Clementi was a music publisher in London. He helped Beethoven spread his music to English audiences.

(If anyone has any more info and could give it to me, it would be greatly appreciated!)

Johann Sedlatzek/Sedlaczek - Flautist

(No Picture Available)

Beethoven on Sedlatzek

Beethoven called Sedlatzek “a most distinguished artist.”

In a letter to Rodophle Kreutzer, he wrote, “To Monsieur Kreutzer,

Sir! This is with hope that you favor your old friend, I dare to recommend to you the bearer of this letter, Monsieur Sedlatzek, a most distinguished Artist, and am begging you not to refuse him ... I take this time to testify my friendship and perpetual consideration. Sir!

Your very humble servant, L v. B”

In a letter to Cherubini, Beethoven wrote, “To Monsieur Cherubini,

Sir! The bearer of this letter, Monsieur Sedlatzek, ardently desires to pay you his tribute. I am convinced of his esteem as an Artist worthy of my name, and hope for a favorable welcome from you. Accept him with the highest assurance and the same consideration with which I have been honored. Sir!

Your very humble servant, L v. B”

Beethoven had Sedlatzek as his principal flautist at the premier of his 9th symphony.

Sedlatzek was one of Beethoven’s closest friends. He was apart of his inner circle that also included Czerny, Lincke, Schlesinger, and Schuppanzigh.

(https://images.app.goo.gl/aehYyQKzGweJVSnPA)

Sedlatzek on Beethoven

Sedlatzek had played Beethoven’s music. As I mentioned earlier, he was the principal flautist for Beethoven’s premier of the ninth symphony.

Sedlatzek visited Beethoven’s house on September 11, 1825. The conductor Sir George Thomas Smart wrote, “... most of the company departed [after the performance], but Schlesinger invited me to stop and dine with the following party of ten. Beethoven, his nephew (Karl), Holz, Weiss, C. Czerny, who sat at the bottom of the table, Lincke, Jean Sedlatzek- a flute player who is coming to England next year and has letters from the Duke of Devonshire, Count St. Antonio, etc.- he has been to Italy- Schlesinger, Schuppanzigh, who sat at the top, and myself.”

Sedlatzek died in 1866 and was buried next to Beethoven.

(More info would be appreciated! Quotes are especially needed.)

Niccolò Paganini - Violinist, Violist, Guitarist, Composer

Beethoven on Paganini

According to Eric Schissel, Paganini and Beethoven had corresponded. (Any more info on this?)

Despite being his contemporary, the two never met in real life.

Wikipedia says that Beethoven “had well-known fallings out with [it lists some people like Haydn] and the Italian violinist Niccolò Paganini.” (Does anyone have any information on this? I would greatly appreciate it.)

(https://images.app.goo.gl/aehYyQKzGweJVSnPA )

Paganini on Beethoven

Paganini wanted to go to Vienna to commission a piece from Beethoven, but by time he arrived to do so, Beethoven was dead.

Paganini also wanted to purchase all of Beethoven’s string quartets before going to Vienna.

Paganini studied Beethoven’s music a great deal and had loved it very much.

——————————————————————————

Part I (Cherubini, Haydn, Hummel, Mozart)

Part II (Schubert, Rossini)

Part III (You’re here!)

Part III (Brahms, Liszt, Schumann)

——————————————————————————

What composers and/or musicians would you like to see added to this list? I’ll do another part featuring more of Beethoven’s contemporaries. I’ll also do another part featuring Beethoven’s opinions on his predecessors and one about his successors’ opinions on him (Which one would you like to see first? Predecessors or successors?).

I’ll move on to another composer soon. If there are any that you are dying to see, tell me and I’ll write about them first!

Sources:

BBC Magazine. Weber, Carl Maria von. Classical Music, 29 May 2012. https://www.classical-music.com/composers/carl-maria-von-weber/

Beethoven 250: A visit with Carl Maria von Weber. CSO SOUNDS & STORIES, 24 March 2020. https://csosoundsandstories.org/beethoven-250-a-visit-with-carl-maria-von-weber/

Caeyers, Jan. Beethoven A Life. University of California, 2009.

Carl Maria von Weber (1786-1826) - Stahlstich von Carl Mayer, Nürnberg, wohl nach einem Gemälde von Carl Christian Vogel von Vogelstein aus dem Jahr 1823, erschienen bei Schuberth und Niemeyer in Hamburg und Itzehoe, um 1830. B 1378, Beethoven-Haus Bonn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/5785332414939136/Carl+Maria+von+Weber+%281786-1826%29+-+Stahlstich+von+Carl+Mayer%2C+N%C3%BCrnberg%2C+wohl+nach+einem+Gem%C3%A4lde+von+Carl+Christian+Vogel+von+Vogelstein+aus+dem+Jahr+1823%2C+erschienen+bei+Schuberth+und+Niemeyer+in+Hamburg+und+Itzehoe%2C+um+1830?fromArchive=4886601146564608

de Saint-Foix, Georges and M. D. Herter Norton. Clementi, Forerunner to Beethoven. Oxford University Press, 1931.

“Insignificant Moments in History: Beethoven Meets Clementi.” Youtube, Soundfly, 22 December 2014. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQBNUHzeCG4

Lindsay, Curtis. “Did Beethoven influence Clementi stylistically? What was Clementi’s opinion on him?” Quora, 25 August 2017. https://www.quora.com/Did-Beethoven-influence-Clementi-stylistically-What-was-Clementi%E2%80%99s-opinion-of-him

Muzio Clementi (1752-1832) - Stich von Thomas Hardy nach einem eigenen Gemälde. B 1988, Beethoven-Haus Bonn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/6139104072826880/Muzio+Clementi+%281752-1832%29+-+Stich+von+Thomas+Hardy+nach+einem+eigenen+Gem%C3%A4lde?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Only Connect - Niccolò Paganini <> Ludwig van Beethoven. National Portrait Gallery. https://www.npg.org.uk/whatson/display/2011/only-connect-display/only-connect/nicolo-paganini/only-connect-nicolo-pagnini-ludwig-van-beethoven

Predota, Georg. At the Center of the Musical Universe Antonio Salieri. Interlude, 18 March 2020. https://interlude.hk/center-musical-universe-antonio-salieri/

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven and His Fellow Musicians II. Interlude, 20 October 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians-ii/

van Betuw, Allysia. A Brief History of Clementi, the Underrated Innovator. PianoTV, 11 March 2017. https://www.pianotv.net/2017/03/history-of-clementi/

[theferretgeneral]

Beethoven and Other Composers

This is a collection of Beethoven’s thoughts on other composers as well as other composers’ thoughts on him. This list currently focuses on some of Beethoven’s contemporaries as of September 16, 2021. This will be updated in the future. There will be a second (and maybe more) post in the future containing many more composers I left out here. If anyone has any more information on these people, leave it below! If anyone knows any other composers’ thoughts on Beethoven or vice versa that I did not mention, please let me know! Also, please inform me if I have made any errors in this post.

(https://images.app.goo.gl/kahgbDzLCf2TiYZi8)

Cherubini

(https://images.app.goo.gl/EYXAxNcoixbjrmjw9)

Beethoven on Cherubini

Beethoven and Cherubini met in Vienna in 1805. Beethoven loved Cherubini’s music and appropriated aspects of his style. When Beethoven was asked who, apart from himself, he thought was the greatest living composer, he paused a little startled and then said “Cherubini”. Beethoven had also said another time that Cherubini was “Europe’s foremost dramatic composer.”

Beethoven wrote to Cherubini in 1823, “I am enraptured whenever I hear a new work of yours and feel as great an interest an it as in my own works—in brief, I honor and love you.”

Beethoven loved Cherubini’s Requiem in C minor, he even wanted it performed at his funeral.

Beethoven sent Cherubini a letter around the time of writing his Missa Solemnis, but apparently Cherubini never got it.

(https://images.app.goo.gl/JUm1npSP3smEEeKMA)

Cherubini on Beethoven

Cherubini didn’t like Beethoven. He described Beethoven as “an unlicked bear cub” and said that his style was rough. He also said that Beethoven was “brusque.” He attended the first performance of Beethoven’s Fidelio and didn’t really like it.

Franz Joseph Haydn

(https://images.app.goo.gl/FtzwWobpnG1J8VUUA)

Beethoven on Haydn

Haydn was Beethoven’s teacher. He started teaching Beethoven in 1792. He was dealing with a teenage/young adult Beethoven, so Beethoven was obviously going to be difficult.

Beethoven was horrified when Haydn suggested that he write “pupil of Haydn” underneath his name on Op. 1 Piano Trios as a marketing trick. Beethoven felt that he learned nothing from Haydn so he did not write that he was a “pupil of Haydn” on Op. 1 Piano Trios.

Haydn suggested that Beethoven should not publish the third of the piano trios (C minor trio) because it would not have much public acceptance. Beethoven was offended at this remark because he believed that the third piano trio was the best of the set. He believed that Haydn envied the C minor trio.

This event clearly did not soil their relationship since Beethoven dedicated his next opus to Haydn.

On Haydn’s 76th birthday, Beethoven knelt down before Haydn and fervently kissed the hands and forehead of Haydn.

(https://images.app.goo.gl/4CZdMUYJb9zcWJaD9)

Haydn on Beethoven

Haydn had an interest of taking Beethoven on his second trip to London.

Haydn genuinely liked Beethoven’s compositions and wished the best for him. When they met for the first time, Beethoven showed him his WoO 87 (Cantatas on the Death of Emperor Joseph II) and WoO O88 (Elevation of Emperor Leopold II) and Haydn was very impressed.

Haydn wrote a letter to the Elector Max Franz and said that Beethoven would fill the position of the greatest musicians in Europe. He also said that he wished Beethoven could stay with him longer.

Haydn called Beethoven “Der große Mogul” behind his back. He was basically calling Beethoven “big shot.”

Johann Nepomuk Hummel

(https://images.app.goo.gl/KHT78BgaKf4hnNRP9)

Beethoven on Hummel

For some time, Beethoven and Hummel were friends. However, after some incidents, they became less close.

Beethoven wished for Hummel to improvise at his memorial concert.

Hummel made keyboard arrangements of Beethoven’s works and Beethoven did not agree with it. He disliked the style of Hummel’s arrangement.

Beethoven and Hummel had to completely piano playing philosophies. This caused them to butt heads many times.

According to Carl Czerny, Beethoven’s student, Beethoven’s fans thought that “Hummel lacked all real imagination, his playing was monotonous as a hurdy-gurdy, the application of his fingers was like a garden spider, and his compositions were mere arrangements of themes by Mozart and Haydn.”

Ignaz von Mosel, an Austrian court official, composer, and musician, commented on the differences between Beethoven’s and Hummel’s styles. He said, “Herr Louis van Beethoven, whose playing is marked by velocity, power and precision, even more by his compositions, while Herr Joh. Nepomuk Hummel’s is recognized by it’s order, clarity and grace.”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/CBU3vHFuu2iCt8D3A)

Hummel on Beethoven

Beethoven’s arrival in Vienna is said to have shattered Hummel’s self-confidence.

Hummel said about Beethoven, “I readily admit that today Ludwig is far superior to me as a composer. But probably not as a virtuoso at the piano.”

Beethoven was commissioned by Prince Nikolaus II Esterhazy to write a mass. Beethoven wrote his Mass in C and it was performed in Eisenstadt were Hummel was Kapellmeister. The performance did not go well and the prince made a comment behind Beethoven’s back which Hummel reportedly laughed at.

When Beethoven was one his deathbed, Hummel traveled all the way from Weimar to Vienna to see Beethoven. Hummel visited Beethoven three times on his death bed.

On Beethoven’s death bed, Hummel got Beethoven’s signature so Hummel could protect his compositions from illegal copying.

Hummel was present at Beethoven’s funeral. He was a pallbearer.

According to Czerny, Hummel’s fans “reproached Beethoven that he abused the fortepiano, that he was deficient in purity and clarity, that he, through the use of the pedal, only produced confused noise, that his compositions were far-fetched, unnatural, without melody and irregular.”

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

(https://images.app.goo.gl/opTvcPiSsn3azVsx8)

Beethoven on Mozart

Young Beethoven played Mozart’s piano concertos in Bönn and was heavily influenced by him. Young Beethoven once thought he accidentally plagiarized off Mozart. He wrote a passage in C minor and under it wrote, “This entire passage has been stolen from Mozart Symphony in C, where the Andante in 6/8 from the... [he stopped writing here].” He wrote the supposedly plagiarized passage below the text, however, no such passage was ever found in a Mozart symphony that we know of.

Beethoven meet Mozart in Vienna in 1787. According to Ignaz von Seyfried, this is what happened:

“Beethoven made a short stay at Vienna, in the year 1790, whither he had gone for the sake of hearing Mozart, to whom he had letters of introduction. Beethoven improvised before Mozart, who listened with some indifference, believing it to be a piece learned by heart. Beethoven then demanded, with his characteristic ambition, a given theme to work out; Mozart, with a sceptical smile, gave him at once a chromatic motivo for a fugue, in which, al rovescio, the countersubject for a double fugue lay concealed. Beethoven was not intimidated, and worked out the subject, the secret intention of which he immediately perceived, at great length and with such remarkable originality and power that Mozart's attention was rivetted, and his wonder so excited that he stepped softly into the adjoining room where some friends were assembled, and whispered to them with sparkling eyes: ‘Don't lose sight of this young man, he will one day tell you some things that will surprise you!”

You can read Hummel’s perspective on Mozart and Beethoven’s meeting here: https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2020/01/27/beethoven-meets-mozart/ (Warning! It’s long.)

Beethoven said Mozart had “a fine but choppy way of playing, no legato.”

(https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ludwig-van-Beethoven)

Mozart on Beethoven

When Mozart heard Beethoven play for the first time, he said, “Mark that young man, he will make a name for himself in the world.”

Mozart died shortly after Beethoven came to Vienna so they did not get to interact much.

Sources:

Beethoven and Haydn: Their Relationship. ClassicFM. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethoven-and-haydn-their-relationship/

Did Beethoven Meet Mozart? ClassicFM, 6 March 2018. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethoven-and-mozart/

Haydn and Beethoven. Popular Beethoven. https://www.popularbeethoven.com/haydn-and-beethoven/

Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837) - Reproduktion eines Schabkunstblattes, vielleicht von Franz Wrenk. B 1618, Beethoven-Haus Bönn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/4767400939487232/Johann+Nepomuk+Hummel+%281778-1837%29+-+Reproduktion+eines+Schabkunstblattes%2C+vielleicht+von+Franz+Wrenk?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Jones, Rhys. Beethoven and the Sound of the Revolution in Vienna, 1792-1814. Cambridge University, 12 November 2014.

Luigi Cherubini (1760-1842) - Stich von Friedrich Wilhelm Bollinger. B 2383, Beethoven-Haus Bönn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/5065980724117504/Luigi+Cherubini+%281760-1842%29+-+Stich+von+Friedrich+Wilhelm+Bollinger?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven to His Fellow Musicians. Interlude, 22 September 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians/

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven to His Fellow Musicians II. Interlude, 20 October, 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians-ii/

Seiffert, Wolf-Dieter. Beethoven meets Mozart. The genesis of Beethoven’s Mozart Variations WoO 40 according to Johann Nepomuk Hummel’s memoirs (first published). G. Henle Verlag, 27 January 2020. https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2020/01/27/beethoven-meets-mozart/

Somlai, Petra. Two Viennese piano schools: Beethoven and Hummel. Royal Conservatory, 2019. https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/555906/559358

[gotterfunkchen]

thank you, this was an interesting read the one thing I found is that it’s Bonn not Bönn (in the part about Mozart)  ;) I hope you will add Schubert to the list. There are mutliple mentions of Schubert liking Beethoven. Often talking about how he liked many composers but none as much as Beethoven. (those are often reports/diary entries/memories of Schubert’s friends. Most collected by Heinrich Kreissle von Hellborn who set out to write the first biography on Schubert, but never actually wrote it. He did however collect many informations about him and later biography writers used those notes). Also mentions of him attending composer meetings where Bethoven was present, but more like ... sitting in the back and watching. There are conflicting informations about whether or not Schubert met Beethoven. Especially a meeting before his death. Schubert was present at Beethoven’s funeral and possible a light bearer. When he was sick with a high fever before his death Schubert was delirious and said “Beethoven does not rest here” which Schubert’s brother took as a sign that Schubert wished to be burried next to Beethoven. He was burried near, with another grave separating them. There was one incident where Schubert wrote negatively about an unnamed composers and the crying and wailing in his music who is commonly thought to be Beethoven, but that was a young Schubert coming home from the 50 years celebration of Salieri ... Schubert dedicated one of his works to Beethoven, but never heard back about it. On the other hand there is information that Beethoven - when he was already very sick was given a few dozen of Schubert’s Lieder and read them over and over and wouldn’t part from them, remarking that “there is a divine spark in this one (Schubert)”. This information comes from Schindler however and as far as I know he doesn’t have a reputation for being the most truthful. Schindler also noted that there was a meeting between those two, that Schubert was supposed to write something into the conversation notebook but was too scared and when Beethoven pointed out some error in Schubert’s composition when going through the sheet music, Schubert completely lost it and ran out of the room, cursing himself outside for it. any information that can shed more light on this would be appreciated  :)

[theferretgeneral]

Yes, I’m working on adding Schubert to the list right now. I had to get this done quickly for a school project so I didn’t have much time for Schubert in the first post, but I’m working on his part right now. I’m also adding Salieri and a few others too. I’ve actually already published it, just adding some details.

Thank you for your info! I will surely add it to my Schubert part.

[theferretgeneral]

Beethoven and Other Composers

This is a collection of Beethoven’s thoughts on other composers as well as other composers’ thoughts on him. This list currently focuses on some of Beethoven’s contemporaries as of September 16, 2021. This will be updated in the future. There will be a second (and maybe more) post in the future containing many more composers I left out here. If anyone has any more information on these people, leave it below! If anyone knows any other composers’ thoughts on Beethoven or vice versa that I did not mention, please let me know! Also, please inform me if I have made any errors in this post.

Cherubini

Beethoven on Cherubini

Beethoven and Cherubini met in Vienna in 1805. Beethoven loved Cherubini’s music and appropriated aspects of his style. When Beethoven was asked who, apart from himself, he thought was the greatest living composer, he paused a little startled and then said “Cherubini”. Beethoven had also said another time that Cherubini was “Europe’s foremost dramatic composer.”

Beethoven wrote to Cherubini in 1823, “I am enraptured whenever I hear a new work of yours and feel as great an interest an it as in my own works—in brief, I honor and love you.”

Beethoven loved Cherubini’s Requiem in C minor, he even wanted it performed at his funeral.

Beethoven sent Cherubini a letter around the time of writing his Missa Solemnis, but apparently Cherubini never got it.

Cherubini on Beethoven

Cherubini didn’t like Beethoven. He described Beethoven as “an unlicked bear cub” and said that his style was rough. He also said that Beethoven was “brusque.” He attended the first performance of Beethoven’s Fidelio and didn’t really like it.

Franz Joseph Haydn

Beethoven on Haydn

Haydn was Beethoven’s teacher. He started teaching Beethoven in 1792. He was dealing with a teenage/young adult Beethoven, so Beethoven was obviously going to be difficult.

Beethoven was horrified when Haydn suggested that he write “pupil of Haydn” underneath his name on Op. 1 Piano Trios as a marketing trick. Beethoven felt that he learned nothing from Haydn so he did not write that he was a “pupil of Haydn” on Op. 1 Piano Trios.

Haydn suggested that Beethoven should not publish the third of the piano trios (C minor trio) because it would not have much public acceptance. Beethoven was offended at this remark because he believed that the third piano trio was the best of the set. He believed that Haydn envied the C minor trio.

This event clearly did not soil their relationship since Beethoven dedicated his next opus to Haydn.

On Haydn’s 76th birthday, Beethoven knelt down before Haydn and fervently kissed the hands and forehead of Haydn.

Haydn on Beethoven

Haydn had an interest of taking Beethoven on his second trip to London.

Haydn genuinely liked Beethoven’s compositions and wished the best for him. When they met for the first time, Beethoven showed him his WoO 87 (Cantatas on the Death of Emperor Joseph II) and WoO O88 (Elevation of Emperor Leopold II) and Haydn was very impressed.

Haydn wrote a letter to the Elector Max Franz and said that Beethoven would fill the position of the greatest musicians in Europe. He also said that he wished Beethoven could stay with him longer.

Haydn called Beethoven “Der große Mogul” behind his back. He was basically calling Beethoven “big shot.”

Johann Nepomuk Hummel

Beethoven on Hummel

For some time, Beethoven and Hummel were friends. However, after some incidents, they became less close.

Beethoven wished for Hummel to improvise at his memorial concert.

Hummel made keyboard arrangements of Beethoven’s works and Beethoven did not agree with it. He disliked the style of Hummel’s arrangement.

Beethoven and Hummel had to completely piano playing philosophies. This caused them to butt heads many times.

According to Carl Czerny, Beethoven’s student, Beethoven’s fans thought that “Hummel lacked all real imagination, his playing was monotonous as a hurdy-gurdy, the application of his fingers was like a garden spider, and his compositions were mere arrangements of themes by Mozart and Haydn.”

Ignaz von Mosel, an Austrian court official, composer, and musician, commented on the differences between Beethoven’s and Hummel’s styles. He said, “Herr Louis van Beethoven, whose playing is marked by velocity, power and precision, even more by his compositions, while Herr Joh. Nepomuk Hummel’s is recognized by it’s order, clarity and grace.”

Hummel on Beethoven

Beethoven’s arrival in Vienna is said to have shattered Hummel’s self-confidence.

Hummel said about Beethoven, “I readily admit that today Ludwig is far superior to me as a composer. But probably not as a virtuoso at the piano.”

Beethoven was commissioned by Prince Nikolaus II Esterhazy to write a mass. Beethoven wrote his Mass in C and it was performed in Eisenstadt were Hummel was Kapellmeister. The performance did not go well and the prince made a comment behind Beethoven’s back which Hummel reportedly laughed at.

When Beethoven was one his deathbed, Hummel traveled all the way from Weimar to Vienna to see Beethoven. Hummel visited Beethoven three times on his death bed.

On Beethoven’s death bed, Hummel got Beethoven’s signature so Hummel could protect his compositions from illegal copying.

Hummel was present at Beethoven’s funeral. He was a pallbearer.

According to Czerny, Hummel’s fans “reproached Beethoven that he abused the fortepiano, that he was deficient in purity and clarity, that he, through the use of the pedal, only produced confused noise, that his compositions were far-fetched, unnatural, without melody and irregular.”

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

Beethoven on Mozart

Young Beethoven played Mozart’s piano concertos in Bönn and was heavily influenced by him. Young Beethoven once thought he accidentally plagiarized off Mozart. He wrote a passage in C minor and under it wrote, “This entire passage has been stolen from Mozart Symphony in C, where the Andante in 6/8 from the... [he stopped writing here].” He wrote the supposedly plagiarized passage below the text, however, no such passage was ever found in a Mozart symphony that we know of.

Beethoven meet Mozart in Vienna in 1787. According to Ignaz von Seyfried, this is what happened:

“Beethoven made a short stay at Vienna, in the year 1790, whither he had gone for the sake of hearing Mozart, to whom he had letters of introduction. Beethoven improvised before Mozart, who listened with some indifference, believing it to be a piece learned by heart. Beethoven then demanded, with his characteristic ambition, a given theme to work out; Mozart, with a sceptical smile, gave him at once a chromatic motivo for a fugue, in which, al rovescio, the countersubject for a double fugue lay concealed. Beethoven was not intimidated, and worked out the subject, the secret intention of which he immediately perceived, at great length and with such remarkable originality and power that Mozart's attention was rivetted, and his wonder so excited that he stepped softly into the adjoining room where some friends were assembled, and whispered to them with sparkling eyes: ‘Don't lose sight of this young man, he will one day tell you some things that will surprise you!”

You can read Hummel’s perspective on Mozart and Beethoven’s meeting here: https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2020/01/27/beethoven-meets-mozart/ (Warning! It’s long.)

Beethoven said Mozart had “a fine but choppy way of playing, no legato.”

Mozart on Beethoven

When Mozart heard Beethoven play for the first time, he said, “Mark that young man, he will make a name for himself in the world.”

Mozart died shortly after Beethoven came to Vienna so they did not get to interact much.

Sources:

Beethoven and Haydn: Their Relationship. ClassicFM. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethoven-and-haydn-their-relationship/

Did Beethoven Meet Mozart? ClassicFM, 6 March 2018. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/beethoven-and-mozart/

Haydn and Beethoven. Popular Beethoven. https://www.popularbeethoven.com/haydn-and-beethoven/

Johann Nepomuk Hummel (1778-1837) - Reproduktion eines Schabkunstblattes, vielleicht von Franz Wrenk. B 1618, Beethoven-Haus Bönn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/4767400939487232/Johann+Nepomuk+Hummel+%281778-1837%29+-+Reproduktion+eines+Schabkunstblattes%2C+vielleicht+von+Franz+Wrenk?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Jones, Rhys. Beethoven and the Sound of the Revolution in Vienna, 1792-1814. Cambridge University, 12 November 2014.

Luigi Cherubini (1760-1842) - Stich von Friedrich Wilhelm Bollinger. B 2383, Beethoven-Haus Bönn. https://www.beethoven.de/en/media/view/5065980724117504/Luigi+Cherubini+%281760-1842%29+-+Stich+von+Friedrich+Wilhelm+Bollinger?fromArchive=4886601146564608

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven to His Fellow Musicians. Interlude, 22 September 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians/

Predota, Georg. Ludwig van Beethoven to His Fellow Musicians II. Interlude, 20 October, 2020. https://interlude.hk/ludwig-van-b-and-his-fellow-musicians-ii/

Seiffert, Wolf-Dieter. Beethoven meets Mozart. The genesis of Beethoven’s Mozart Variations WoO 40 according to Johann Nepomuk Hummel’s memoirs (first published). G. Henle Verlag, 27 January 2020. https://www.henle.de/blog/en/2020/01/27/beethoven-meets-mozart/

Somlai, Petra. Two Viennese piano schools: Beethoven and Hummel. Royal Conservatory, 2019. https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/555906/559358

[theferretgeneral]

Beethoven and Other Composers Part Two

This is a second post with two more composers in it. If there are any errors or anything I should add, let me know!

(Updated October 1 and October 20)

Franz Schubert

(https://images.app.goo.gl/ciTAZxsjTbSBurcB9)

Beethoven on Schubert

Beethoven admired Schubert’s works. He said, “Truly in Schubert there is a divine spark.”

Beethoven is believed to have played Schubert’s Variations on a French Theme with his nephew Karl. They supposedly enjoyed the piece.

Beethoven did not often publicly praise composers, so I do not have any more information on his thoughts on Schubert. If any one else does, please let me know!

(https://images.app.goo.gl/kAZDi2TC5GxABCM97)

Schubert on Beethoven

According to Moritz von Schwind, Schubert sold his books so he woukd be able to buy a ticket for the first performance of Beethoven’s opera “Fidelio.”

Schubert dedicated his Variations on a French Theme to Beethoven. He wrote that it was dedicated to Beethoven from “worshipper and admirer Franz Schubert.”

When Schubert met Beethoven on his death bed, he kept going on and on about Beethoven being so generous. He kept blushing while they were talking. “If I’m blushing, it’s because—again you are too generous.” and “Dear me, but I know of no way to govern blushing.” He later began tearing up. “My apologies, tears are even more embarrassing than blushes.” and “I had better leave now, lest I baptize you with my tears.” This is in Beethoven’s conversation notebooks.

Schubert said to Beethoven on his death bed, “...your cheeks are sunken and mine are fat—Would to God I could give you my unneeded fat!”

Schubert once wrote that he saw Beethoven across the room of a café, but that he did not have the courage to approach him.

Schubert was a torchbearer at Beethoven’s funeral.

On Schubert’s deathbed, he asked to be buried next to Beethoven.

“When he was sick with a high fever before his death Schubert was delirious and said “Beethoven does not rest here” which Schubert’s brother took as a sign that Schubert wished to be burried next to Beethoven. He was burried near, with another grave separating them.” Thank you to @gotterfunkchen for this information!

Schubert’s initial opinion on Beethoven may have been sour. Maynard Solomon said “during Salieri's tutelage of Schubert ... the young composer became for a short while so heated an opponent of Beethoven's music.”

Some biographers suggest that “one of our greatest German artists” refers to Beethoven in this diary passage from Schubert. Here’s the passage: “It must be beautiful and refreshing for an artist [referring to Antonio Salieri] to see all his pupils gathered about him, each one striving to give his best for his jubilee, and to hear in all these compositions the expression of pure nature, free from all the bizarreness that is common among most composers nowadays, and is due almost wholly to one of our greatest German artists; that bizarreness that joins and confuses the comic with the tragic, the agreeable with the repulsive, heroism with howlings and the holiest with harlequinades, without distinction, so as to goad people to madness instead of dissolving them in love, to incite them to laughter instead oflifting them up to God. To see this bizarreness banished from the circle of his pupils and instead look upon pure, holy nature, must be the greatest pleasure for an artist who, guided by such a one as Gluck, learned to know nature and to uphold it in spite of the unnatural conditions of our age”

One of Salieri’s students, Benedikt Randhartinger, said that Schubert's "idol was Beethoven, all other composers mattered little to him.”

Apparently Schubert’s love for Beethoven caused some problems when Schubert started taking lessons from Salieri. Spaun said, “This predilection of Schubert's [for the works of Beethoven], which Salieri did not seem to share, and the frankness with which his candid pupil expressed himself on the subject, caused Salieri to doubt whether Schubert would follow the path along which it was the master's intention to guide him and along which he intended to train him for opera.”

Schubert commented positively on Beethoven’s second, fourth, and seventh symphonies. I’m not aware of comments he made on the others. If anyone has any more information on this, that’d be great!

Schubert said, “Secretly, in my heart of hearts, I still hope to be able to make something out of myself, but who can do anything after Beethoven?”

Anselm Hüttenbrenner said, “Beethoven used go to the publishing house of Steiner & Co. two or three times a week. There was almost always a gathering of composers there and an exchange of musical opinions. Schubert used to accompany me there. We delighted in Beethoven’s pithy and sometimes sarcastic remarks, especially on the subject of Italian music.”

Anton Schindler allowed Schubert to mess around in Beethoven’s papers after he died. Schubert searched around and found a poem by Ludwig Rellstab. Rellstab sent the poem to Beethoven in the hopes that he would set it to music, but Beethoven either died before he could or just didn’t feel like it.

When Schubert found the poem, he thought that it would be a great way to celebrate the first anniversary of Beethoven’s death. The piece he created had great horn solos and quoted Beethoven’s Eroica symphony.

Schubert said of Beethoven in 1827, “He knows everything, but we cannot understand everything yet, and much water will flow through the Danube before all that man created is generally understood.”

(Schubert depicted at Beethoven’s death bed. Source: https://unheardbeethoven.org/beethoven-and-schubert-2/)

Gioachino Rossini

(https://images.app.goo.gl/mHWmJG6SRTZiNvrM9)

Beethoven on Rossini

Beethoven complimented Rossini on his opera “The Barber of Seville” when they met (The meeting was arranged by Giuseppe Carpani). Beethoven told Rossini that he should only write comedic operas (opera buffa) and to write anything other than that would be against Rossini’s nature. Carpani told Beethoven that Rossini had already composed many serious operas (opera seria). Beethoven said, “Yes, I looked at them. Opera seria is ill-suited to the Italians. You do not know how to deal with real drama.”

This quote from Beethoven’s sisters-in-law Johanna to his nephew Karl and I interpreted it as a negative opinion on Rossini: “Once the priests had blessed the dead man, the Italians sang a chorus from William Tell. Considering your uncle’s opinions of Rossini, I had to suppress a smile.”

When in 1822 Rossini soon got popularity in Vienna, Beethoven said, “Well, they will not be able to rob me of my place in the history of art.”

Beethoven said to Anton Schindler, "Rossini would have become a great composer if his teacher had frequently applied some blows ad posteriora." He is basically saying that Rossini should of been beat across the hiney more.

Beethoven also said, “Rossini is a talented and a melodious composer, his music suits the frivolous and sensuous spirit of the times, and his productivity is such that he needs only as many weeks as the Germans do years to write an opera."

In his conversation book in 1825, Beethoven wrote, “This rascal Rossini, who is not respected by a single master of his art!”

Beethoven also wrote in one of his conversation books, “The Bohemians are born musicians. The Italians ought to take them as models. What have they to show for their famous conservatories? Behold! their idol, Rossini! If Dame Fortune had not given him a pretty talent and amiable melodies by the bushel, what he learned at school would have brought him nothing but potatoes for his big belly.”

Beethoven said, “Rossini is a talented and a melodious composer, his music suits the frivolous and sensuous spirits of the times, and his productivity is such that he needs only as many weeks as the Germans do years to write an opera.”

(https://images.app.goo.gl/JQFFjJJvqGW3wJkc9)

Rossini on Beethoven

Rossini said this about Beethoven, “I had already listened to some quartets of Beethoven in Milan and I have no need to say of them with such emotion and admiration! I also knew some of his compositions for pianoforte. In Vienna I attended for the first time the performance of one of his symphonies, the Eroica. That music overwhelmed me. I had a single thought: to know that great genius, to see him, just once.”

When Rossini saw Beethoven’s financial situation, he offered to give him or help him get financial support. He asked some of the Viennese aristocracy to help him, but they refused. Rossini wrote, “I remarked that the state of deafness in which the poor devil found himself should inspire the most living compassion and that was not generous to reprimand certain failings in order to justify their refusal to help him.”

See part III here!

Sources:

Franz Schubert (1797-1828): Beethoven’s biggest fan? ClassicFM. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/beethoven/guides/franz-schubert/

Friedman, Sanford. Conversations with Beethoven. New York Review of Books, 2014.

Gibbs, Christopher H. Writing Under the Influence?: Salieri and Schubert’s Early Opinion of Beethoven. Columbia University, 2003. https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D8G73R92/download

Reid, Paul. Beethoven and Schubert. UnheardBeethoven, 4 October 2013. https://unheardbeethoven.org/beethoven-and-schubert-2/

Rossini Meets Beethoven. Medium, 15 October 2020. https://medium.com/humanities-unveiled/rossini-meets-beethoven-7135b038074f

Stybr, David. Giaochino Rossini meets Ludwig van Beethoven. The Classical Music Guide Forms, 24 September 2006. http://www.classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=13858

[theferretgeneral]

First Species Counterpoint

(https://images.app.goo.gl/JrAgFS6weEXB3VnP7)

First species counterpoint is the simplest of all counterpoint. It consists of:

- Two or more voices (Only one for now)

- Notes of the same length

- Only consonances

To make sure we understand these terms, let’s review!

Consonances and Dissonances

There are two types of intervals: Consonant intervals and dissonant intervals. Consonances can be divided up into two sections: Perfect and imperfect. Perfect consonances are completely stable and pure. They consist of unisons, fifths, and octaves.

Imperfect consonances are less stable, but still consonant. They consist of thirds and sixths.

Dissonances are unstable and discordant. They consist of seconds and sevenths.

Fourths are a bit tricky. Sometimes they’re consonant and sometimes they’re dissonant.

Rules

In first species counterpoint, we are only allowed to use unisons, thirds, fifths, sixths, and octaves. We must start and end with a perfect consonance (unison, fifth, or octave). It is recommended that we use imperfect consonances in our counterpoint (except for the first and last note which must be a perfect consonance), though perfect consonances are acceptable.

When one moves into a perfect consonance, we must do so in contrary motion (two voices move in opposite directions).

Oblique motion (one voice moves while the other does not) and especially contrary motion should be employed as often as possible so we can more easily avoid mistakes.

A cantus firmus (A pre-written melody. See picture below) will be given. It will consist of only whole notes. One must write another voice above OR below the cantus firmus on a different staff. The voice you write is the counterpoint.

(It is not required, but it is helpful to label intervals between each voice.)

A cantus firmus written by Johann Joseph Fux in his book “Gradus ad Parnassum”:

(Notes if unreadable: D, F, E, D, G, F, A, G, F, E, D)

Example of counterpoint given by Fux:

(The numbers above the bottom staff are the intervals. The numbers above the top staff are the measure numbers.)

Remember the rules:

- Only consonances are allowed.

- One must begin and end on a perfect consonance (unison, fifth, octave).

- One must try to move as often as possible in contrary motion and oblique motion to make the voices sound independent from each other.

- No augmented or diminished intervals are allowed.

- No jumps greater than a fifth (except for the octave and minor sixth which should only be employed in an upward direction)

- Large jumps should try to be “recovered” so things don’t sound discombobulated (See example).

(The jump of an octave F to another F is “recovered” by “filling in the gap” afterwards.)

If there are any errors or anything I should add, please let me know! Thanks!

Sources:

Fux, Johann Joseph. Gradus ad Parnassum. Translated by Alfred Mann, W. W. Norton & Company, 1965.

“How to Compose 1:1 Counterpoint.” Youtube, uploaded by Jacob Gran, 31 March 2020, https://youtu.be/b5PoTBOj7Xc

Tchaikovsky, Pyorr Ilyitch. Guide to the Practical Study of Harmony. Dover Publications, 2013.