I don't even know what I am doing

Trying to social distance myself out of existence | I got like... not nearly enough sleep | trying to supersede my personality and all my problems with reading | I promise that I'm so normal about Percy Jackson and Obi-Wan Kenobi | my toxic trait is that I think that all my fandom opinions are correct

[hzjshsjsnsjjajs]

This is and will always be a pro jedi blog get out of here if you can't understand the culture and nuances of the order also fuck you forever Anakin Skywalker

[thehollowprince]

One of the things I actually really like about the Fall of Anakin Skywalker was how it showed the true horror of a popular romance trope.

Over the years, in numerous books and countless fanfics, we've all seen some variation or another of the infamous "I'd burn the world down for you." And fans always swoon over this line because it's framed as this noble or romantic gesture where the character puts their love over everything else.

What I particularly loved about the prequels was that it showed what happened when the character, in this case, Anakin, actually did burn the world down "for Padmé" and we saw how terrifying and horrendous such a thing actually is.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Anakin is to Ahsoka as Palpatine is to Anakin

and I feel like we need to talk about that more.

[riana-one]

I am pretty sure the expulsion to face her potential execution for the Temple bombing she didn't do and having to go on the lamb to clear her name with only Anakin and Padme trying anything to save her might have a bit to play with Ahsoka being disillusioned with the Order in the end.

And the non apology and bribe of knighthood when the truth came out because the teenager turned political scapegoat has rational doubts after facing her own death because the Jedi Order would sacrifice a child they raised in a heart beat.

It isn't like they sold off Anakin the minute it bought them brownie points when Palpatine first tool office.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

See, the Jedi Council did try to clear Ahsoka's name and to get her out of prision, it's just that Ahsoka broke out, following what she tought to be Anakin's plan for a while, before realizing the person helping her was an unknown and still following their plan, and then teamed up with Ventress. What is important about that arc is that Anakin's teachings have removed Ahsoka so far from the Jedi mindset, that she doesn't have the patience to wait until the council finds a solution, or the clear-headedness to recognize that the escape makes her seem more suspicious.

For all intents and purposes, Ahsoka looks guilty. It does not matter what the Jedi believe about her character. They've been wrong about things like that before (Pong Krell, Anakin...). And it turns out to have been a Padawan, just a Padawan who was not Ahsoka. Barriss being the bomber would've just seemed as unlikely as Ahsoka. To add to that, the Jedi can't just skip a trial. Non-Jedi Republic citizens died, it's no longer just a Jedi matter. What do you want them to do? Lock her up in the temple for safe-keeping (putting all the other Jedi in the temple at risk) so that the Republic can't arrest her?

And the Jedi did not sell off Anakin? I am genuinely confused what you're talking about.

[riana-one]

The Jedi Order took a teenager, one they had a duty and responsibility towards, and tossed her the wolves because protecting her or just taking a moral stance at all might damage their political standing with the Senate.

They didn't care about Ahsoka, a child that the Council personally knew, taught, and turned into a weapon of war before she was a legal adult.

They left her out to face her potential death alone and /Ahsoka/ is to blame for not trusting the system that set her up to die?

I really don't understand the definition of 'family' where the organization that leaves a child to be potentially executed and still thinks they can claim the high moral ground.

If one of your children is so radicalized and desperate that they want to bomb their own home in order to protest a war that they were forced to fight maybe, maybe some internal self reflection is appropriate.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Maybe you should consider, that all the Jedi were drafted. They had no choice. I also literally didn't say anything about their standing with the Senate. THEY DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER CHOICE THEN TO PUT HER THROUGH A TRIAL. Unless they want to start a civil war with the republic, they can't do anything other then to try and prove her innocence in court. The system is turned against all Jedi. If any of the Councillors were put in Ahsoka's situation, they would stay in their cell and believe that their fellows will find a way to get them out.

I also don't know why you're so convinced that Ahsoka would get executed. We see Barriss in prision. She survives past order 66.

They don't try to claim the high ground. They don't have another choice. You yourself explained why Ahsoka and the Jedi are a family. They raised and taught her. They took her in and sheltered her until they were forced to send her to war.

Are you trying to justify the temple bombing? The Jedi know that the war is having a bad effect on their members, they just can't do anything about it. Jedi are dying by the dozen, but they can't leave. They tried to do their duty and walked straight into a sith trap. They have no where else to go. If they just retreat from the front, inncocent people would die and none of the republic military officers would try to work with the clones. They would have to abandon the republic in a war they know to be run by Sith, because they would have to flee Coruscant after being branded as traitors.

I ask you again, because you didn't answer the question before: What would you have them do?

[riana-one]

You do understand that 'just following orders' is not even an excuse that Stormtroopers can use to avoid accountability let alone the elite warrior monks that claim a monopoly on the Force?

Drafts can be dodged.

Principal stances can be made.

Maybe even debate the nature of going to war for a corrupt government that can't even defend itself without chattel slavery?

Or just protect the actual /child/ given over to your care and provide for them even if makes unpopular political waves?

[tiredjustsoverytired]

It's not about "just following orders" i don't know where you got that from, as I didn't mention that phrase once. And what accountability do you want them to take? Trying to work within the law to find evidence for Ahsoka's innocence, even though she looks guilty from all angles?

Drafts can be dodged, but not by an entire religious organization that is largely in the public eye and employed exclusively in the high ranks. Especially not if innocent people would die. Inncocent people that they could save, using their magic powers. Especially not if their entire philospohy and identity as people is based on helping people and tied deeply to the republic. Jedi want to help people. They don't want anyone to die, if they can help it.

The Jedi can't leave. The entire war is a trap by the Sith that's been a Millennium in the making. There is no way for all of them to just escape.

The Jedi can't exist without public approval. That's not about politics, but about survival. They need the public to like them so that they can help the most people. All of their members were born and taken in. They don't make money. They most likely need the republic to get supplies. 'Unpopular political waves' is a cute expression, because it makes it sound like that's not hugely important for the continued existance of any group of people. As if the Jedi, being the biggest group of force-users that most people know about, aren't seen as representatives of Force sensitives in general.

You can't protect a child if you don't have the means to. You can't protect it if you're being hunted. You can't protect anyone if your entire people (even ones not in ypur group) get prosecuted for being traitors.

Once again, the Jedi can't leave. Once again, Ahsoka has all the evidence stacked against her.

There is no choice. The Jedi are trapped.

[legalandnotease]

And what accountability do you want them to take? Trying to work within the law to find evidence for Ahsoka's innocence, even though she looks guilty from all angles?

What did I just read? No seriously... you typed a sentence describing basic due process of law as if it was some kind of absurd notion that should be discarded.

Yes---- they should've investigated and found evidence because that is what justice and morality requires! You investigate so that the wrong person doesn't get punished and the real perpetrator doesn't get away with doing bad things. Why is this hard?

"But she looked guilty!" isn't an argument, its an excuse. Its an excuse for people in power to shirk their responsibilities and not do their jobs. Its the kind of excuse a corrupt police officer or politician might make for a gross miscarriage of justice because actually doing the right thing and finding the real perpetrator was just too hard.

They need the public to like them so that they can help the most people.

Okay. Wrongly convicting and prosecuting somebody for a crime they didn't commit doesn't actually make people like you. In fact, it tends to have the opposite effect.

If the Jedi wanted people to trust them, they should've done a proper investigation. Failing to do so made them look incompetent and corrupt. You can't be the "guardians of justice" when you very publicly allowed a gross injustice to happen to one of your own people because it was politically convenient.

Everything that went down with Ahsoka made the Jedi look bad. People are not going to trust an institution that can't even do right by its own members.

What would happen next time the Jedi came along to "protect people"? They would be "you're the guys who wrongly executed an innocent teenager and allowed the real bomber to escape, and now you claim we need you to stop the innocent dying?"

See how the Jedi now have zero credibility?

There is no choice. The Jedi are trapped

There is absolutely a choice: the Jedi could have investigated. Even if it was hard, even if there was political pushback - because doing the right thing is what wins you friends in the end. People see it, that's what makes them like you and rally to your cause.

Doing what is easy or politically expedient doesn't. It just makes you complicit in all the bad shit that is happening.

People didn't turn on the Jedi because they were stupid or manipulated: they turned on the Jedi because the Jedi had become corrupt. So corrupt that they mistook political convenience for morality. So corrupt, they allowed evil to continue because challenging it might cause them difficulties in the Senate.

People saw that. That's why they didn't like the Jedi. Its also why Ahsoka didn't trust the Jedi.

Anakin didn't make her distrust the Jedi: they did that themselves. Nobody is going to trust an institution which abandoned them twice and them subjected them to wrongful arrest and imprisonment.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

They are working within the law. They're trying to gather evidence, but then Ahsoka escapes and it's simply so much harder now. All the evidence that has been found so far (Ahsoka seemingly chocking a woman to death on video, breaking out and seemingly injuring and killing a lot of Coruscant Guard troopers and later being seen with known enemy of the republic Asajj Ventress). She looks fucking guilty because all the evidence is against her. Had she gone back into her cell and not picked up her lightsabers when she saw the troopers on the ground, it would've been pretty obvious that she wasn't the person responsible.

All the evidence suggest Ahsoka is guilty. Everyone thinks she is guilty. The non-Jedi that were working at the temple and got affected by the bomb and all of Coruscant thinks Ahsoka Tano is guilty. Not complying with the Republic's Justice system would've looked like the Jedi were letting someone get away with murder, just because they are a member of the order. They would've needed to have evidence to prove her innocence, which they did not have.

Ahsoka gets arrested. The Jedi are being forbidden from seeing Ahsoka (Anakin gets escourted out by Corries with activated weapons). Everything about Ahsoka's trial is under Tarkin's control, which is stated in the episode. Then she escapes while Anakin is trying to visit her. All of this happens in the same episode on a very very fast timeline. It's dark out when Ahsoka gets imprisoned and it's still dark out when she escapes. That is not a lot of time to gather evidence when Anakin seemingly also just learned that she's being held captive and arrives while she escapes.

The next thing we see of the Council has Tarkin (the guy the republic put in charge of the investigation) telling them that "after further investigation there can be little doubt that the clones officers murdered in the escape were killed by none other then Ahsoka Tano herself". All evidence suggests that Ahsoka did it. The council is shown to not be happy about it, but they officially agree that Ahsoka probably killed that woman and the troopers, because that's waht the evidence says. They are not investigating because they've already sent a council member and Anakin out to capture the presumed terrorist threat, that is hanging out with Sith Apprentice and Seperatist General Asajj Ventress the next time they lay eyes on her.

Throughout Star Wars all we see the Jedi try to do is help. To the point that the Jedi's desire to help and rescue people, their morality, their compassion, is stated to be the weakness you have to exploit if you want to kill them. Lukas descripted them as intergalactic therapists. But they are 10000 and over 2 trillion people live on Coruscant alone. They are spread thin and fighting a war they have slowly been manipulated into over the course of a 1000 year long plan by people that want them dead. It's a pretty big plot point in rots that the Jedi don't trust Palpatine and that they can't even stop him from forcing Anakin onto the council. The public during the Clone wars sees the Jedi as War General that just can't seem to end the war, some seem to really like and trust them, others don't. The rebellion likes the Jedi so much they use their "may the force be with you" phrase.

[legalandnotease]

Um yeah- so what you're describing there isn't due process.

Had she gone back into her cell and not picked up her lightsabers when she saw the troopers on the ground, it would've been pretty obvious that she wasn't the person responsible.

That's a bad as saying a person is guilty if they run and we should convict people on that basis alone.

Even "terrorists" are entitled to legal representation and a trial by jury. Heck if the Jedi convicted everyone who hung out with terrorists Obi Wan should've been in prison several times over because of his little escapade with the Death Watch.

What was done to Ahsoka wasn't in the remit of any justice system anywhere. Period. Tarkin never presented any evidence; he just claimed he'd seen it. Tarkin is also a military general: Ahsoka isn't a member of the GAR. Neither are the Clones. Tarkin shouldn't have any jurisdiction over this case.

You don't try a minor who isn't a member of the armed forces in a military court without any kind of representation. You also failed to mention: the Jedi had to formally expel Ahsoka for her to be put on trial in the first place.

They didn't question anything. They didn't ask why this highly irregular procedure was going on, they didn't ask why due process wasn't being observed. They're just "nope this will make us look bad, so bye I guess!" (And you wonder why she didn't trust those guys?)

Throughout Star Wars all we see the Jedi try to do is help. To the point that the Jedi's desire to help and rescue people, their morality, their compassion

If "helping people" requires you to participate in slavery and use child soldiers, you probably need to rethink your priorities.

Lukas descripted them as intergalactic therapists.

Yeah, I've read that interview several times and this quote is taken out of context. It was actually a joke, and Lucas described them as "negotiating at the point of a lightsaber". Which means forcing people to comply with a threat of violence if necessary.

It's a pretty big plot point in rots that the Jedi don't trust Palpatine and that they can't even stop him from forcing Anakin onto the council.

Its also a major plot point that they trusted Palpatine enough to let hm have unsupervised access to Anakin for over a decade. That's either complacency or child neglect- take your pick.

The rebellion likes the Jedi so much they use their "may the force be with you" phrase.

Yes, that's because institutions which no longer exist tend to get mythologised and made out to be better than they really were. None of the members of the Rebellion were actually alive when the old Republic were around, or their view wouldn't be so positive.

Also "May the Force be WIth You" is basically the equivalent of saying "God bless you" - its not specifically a Jedi phrase. Just something people say. A greeting.

Anyway, what does any of this have to do with why Ahsoka doesn't trust the Jedi? Wasn't your original post that big bad evil Anakin made Ahsoka distrust the Jedi who did her no harm ever? Instead of the canon reality that they:

Left her for dead in a warzone

Left her for dead on a training exercise

Expelled her from the order, allowed her to be tried in a Military Court

Anybody would lose trust an institution which treated them like that- and that's definitely not how a "family" acts.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

It doesn't mean she's guilty, but it does make her look it, especially since it lead to her working with Ventress and being found with explosive nanobots. Staying and not doing anything would've shown that there's more going on.

She did have a trial. That's the point. Padmé represented her. They were overwhelmed, because Tarkin had a video in which Ahsoka seemingly strangles someone with the force. He had multiple witnessess to her escape (which didn't only leave the injured troopers in the halway), her working with Ventress and her in a warehouse with the bots. There's multiple people that were injured in her escape. There's video evidence of that, too, because they had surveillance drones.

Tarkin is in charge, because Palpatine wants him to be in charge. Ahsoka is a Commander of the GAR - Tarkin shouldn't be in charge of her because he's an Admiral of the Navy, but Palpatine stands over the Navy and the GAR and the Senate because of his emergency powers, and can thus do what he wants. If he wants Tarkin in charge of the entire affair, then he will be. The Clones are the GAR, but they are still shown obeying the Admirals.

She didn't need to be expelled to be held captive. And the Tarkin made it pretty clear, that the Jedi had to expell her (with vegue threats about not doing so being seen as defying the Senate).

They didn't need to question it, because it's pretty obvious. Weird shit is going on because the Temple was bombed and multiple republic citizens and Guard Troopers died - it's not just a Jedi matter and because the Temple is a big public thing, the entire affair is a big public thing. And Star Wars doesn't always follow real World logic. Why is Padmé Amidala allowed to make a snap judgement to release one of the most destructive and elusive enemy generals for one person, without any consequences? Because there's a war and people were given far more power then they should've ever had in emergency motions and because Palpatine has the ultimate power over everything.

I'm not talking Jedi-Clone relations here. Aside from notable exceptions (Slick) canon shows us the Jedi and Clones getting along and caring for one another. This post explains their relationship far better then I could. As for child soldiers - SW often has children in postions that are not acceptable in our world. Naboo is ruled by child-queens that have child-assassines as canon fodder guards. The Rebellion has child soldiers like Sabine and Ezra and no one cares. Boba Fett is a pre-teen bounty hunter and then goes to adult prison. All of this is normal in Szar Wars. The Jedi Padawans are Commanders because the rules of the GAR deem it so and because they would've gone on dangerous missions even without the war.

I don't know where you got that from, but i got my intergalactic Therapists quote "They’re aren’t an aggressive Force at all. They try to — conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might — intergalactic therapists." from this Interview transcript (or this video around 28:50).

There was a pretty big change after that decade in the form of Palpatine suddenly amassing a substantial amount of power through emergency notions during a war that he handled very badly.

It has only been twenty years since the republic fell. There's multiple Jedi in or working with the rebellion. Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were both on the Senate during the Clone Wars. What are you talking about, "none of them were around"?

Before the fall of the Republic we only see the Phrase used by Jedi. It's only once the Jedi have been mostly massacred, that we see other characters use the phrase. Granted, other force religions like the Guardians of the Whills also seem to use it. We do not see it used as a greeting, it's used like "Goodbye and Good Luck".

It has to do with the post because it's a response to your previous message. I also don't know how we got started on the wrong Jedi Arc, because Ahsoka distrusts the council and escapes following what she initially thinks is Anakin's plan immediately upon first capture and then escapes, before any of the trial stuff even happens. What training exercise did you mean? The one that Anakin secretly organizes where Clone Troopers shoot at Ahsoka until she passess out and then start right back up when she wakes? And when do they leave her for dead? They search for her when she gets captured. Do you mean when Luminara thinks Ahsoka and Barriss died under the rubble of an entire Geonosian colony?

[legalandnotease]

I'm not talking Jedi-Clone relations here. Aside from notable exceptions (Slick) canon shows us the Jedi and Clones getting along and caring for one another. This post explains their relationship far better then I could

Yeah, that's BS. The Clones are property. They are legally considered property of the Republic and have no rights. That makes them slaves. The Jedi "treating them well" doesn't change that. You treat your slave well you're still a slave owner.

You're probably one of those "but muh Watto was a good slave owner!" people too. There's no such thing as a a "good" slave owner, nobody has the right to *own* other human beings. This is basic.

Why is Padmé Amidala allowed to make a snap judgement to release one of the most destructive and elusive enemy generals for one person, without any consequences? Because there's a war and people were given far more power then they should've ever had in emergency motions and because Palpatine has the ultimate power over everything.

Or why the Jedi were able to hide that dirty little secret about how Dooku really ordered the Clone Troopers whilst holding Sifo Dyas hostage? You'd think *oh btw the Clones were actually created by the Sith* would be something the Senate might want to know but I guess "Palpatine controls everything" is a neat way of erasing their agency...

. And the Tarkin made it pretty clear, that the Jedi had to expell her (with vegue threats about not doing so being seen as defying the Senate).

Yes "just following orders" - the old Nuremberg Defence- except its not accepted as a defence. "We might be seen as defying the Senate" isn't an excuse for doing evil shit.

It has only been twenty years since the republic fell. There's multiple Jedi in or working with the rebellion.

Ahsoka doesn't count herself as as a Jedi. Ezra was never with the Order.

Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were both on the Senate during the Clone Wars. What are you talking about, "none of them were around"?

Neither were Jedi and Mon has no known associations with them. Padme was actually the one who got them involved in the anti- Palpatine movements as per a deleted scene. .

As for child soldiers - SW often has children in postions that are not acceptable in our world. Naboo is ruled by child-queens that have child-assassines as canon fodder guards. The Rebellion has child soldiers like Sabine and Ezra and no one cares.

Sweetie, its a major plot point in the whole Wrong Jedi arc that being forced to fight at a young age is what made Barriss and Ahsoka so messed up in the first place. Naboo's child Queens rarely participate in combat, and decoys aren't the same as putting a kid on a battlefield.

"Everyone does it" doesn't make it acceptable and Sabine is at least 19. Legally an *adult*

Boba Fett is a pre-teen bounty hunter and then goes to adult prison.

Which was almost entirely due to the actions of Mace Windu- first killing his father then not doing anything to help the kid. An adult Jedi abandoning a child? Quelle surprise!

All of this is normal in Szar Wars. The Jedi Padawans are Commanders because the rules of the GAR deem it so and because they would've gone on dangerous missions even without the war.

"But its just normal" doesn't make it morally acceptable or cancel out the trauma. And the Jedi being abusive and negligent of children anyway doesn't make sending them into battle any more acceptable.

What training exercise did you mean? The one that Anakin secretly organizes where Clone Troopers shoot at Ahsoka until she passess out and then start right back up when she wakes?

Lol, the one you say is "abusive" but is actually not very much different to any Special Forces training. Its funny how you all want to see "abuse" where there is none but ignore the very real instances of child abuse- by the Jedi.

Post by @legalandnotease · 5 images

💬 0  🔁 12  ❤️ 22 · "It's Called Training: In Defence of 'Practice Makes Perfect'" · A Meta on the Difference Between Tough Training and Abus

Like the whole Padawan Lost arc, in which Ashoka discovers a whole group of Padawans being *hunted for sport* because their Masters abandoned them. Left them for dead. That is every shade of messed up- that the Order *regularly* left children for dead on training exercises. Not just once but dozens of times.

And when do they leave her for dead? They search for her when she gets captured. Do you mean when Luminara thinks Ahsoka and Barriss died under the rubble of an entire Geonosian colony?

Yeah in a battle they should never have been fighting. What the heck do you think would happen if an adult abandoned a child in real life to prove they're "not attached"? They'd be up on charges for child neglect, abandonment and possibly culpable homicide.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Are you seriously accusing me of supporting fuckin slavery right now? No, Watto and all the other slavers in SW, like the Zygerians, are pieces of shit. They Jedi just aren't the ones calling the shots about the clones, the Senate is. While the Kaminoans say that the clones were made for the Jedi, they don't have the money and the republic senate discusses financing options to create more clones. The Senate owns the Clones. And the Jedi are also forced to be here - while their situation is no where near as bad as the clones, they were drafted into the war against their will. Did you read the post I added?

Dooku's involvement is kept secret and not explored on-screen until very late, because the writing of the Star Wars Universe requires it to stay secret. That's the same reason Obi-Wan doesn't simply cut Anakin's head off on Mustafar and the reason Padmé dies in childbirth is a very technologically advanced universe. It just has to happen for the plot. In universe you could explain it with: 1.why tf would anyone believe Dooku, 2. the Jedi only discovered it when the republic was so entangled in the war that the Clones were needed because it would've ended badly otherwise, 3.what would do the republic even do with millions of highly trained men (probably kill them), 4.the Jedi now know the clones and they are pretty stand up guys and, aside from the rare outliers, they're all very loyal to the republic and no one has noticed anything evil about them.

And yeah, the fact that Palpatine control both sides of the war and pretty much everything else and that everyone's agency is limited because of that is rather part of the central problem of the movies.

It's the defence when your entire order is a religious minority with limited rights that is being forced to do something by the political and legal system that controls their lifelyhood and has already drafted them into a war. We end the Prequels by seeing what can happen to the Jedi if they don't comply. They get killed, because they are a vulnerable minority. They might fight better then many other people, but bounty hunters (and the clones) are consistantly able to pose a danger to them.

I am not talking about Ezra and Ahsoka. I mean Ezra's Master Kanan Jarrus or Caleb Dume and Cal Kestis, Cere Junda and Obi-Wan Kenobi (and later Luke Skywalker).

That canon status of deleted scenes is uncertain, but Mon Mothma and Bail Organa are the people we see as leaders of the rebellion, and Bail especially is always shown of a supporter of the Jedi, to the point that he risks his life to go to the temple and later to help Obi-Wan and Yoda. Leia is also raised with a very Jedi positive attitude. Many other rebels were also alive and aware when the Jedi were still alive. There's people over 20 years of age in the rebellion.

Barriss is, once again, an outlier. She is one of 3 Jedi were are shown to have fallen before order 66 - that's Dooku, Krell and her. Sabine is 16 in season one of rebels, and has already been in the rebellion for quite some time, so she's Ahsoka's age. And very, very much a child soldier. The Handmaidens spent all their time waiting for assassines that possibly want to kill their Queen so that they can die instead. They received special combat training before. They are child soldiers with a specialized guarding role. Boba only left his hiding place when the Arena was empty, they didn't even know he was there. The Jedi and Clones left and immediately started fighting a war.

I mentioned the people I did because they show a clear sytematic pattern of child-welfare simply not mattering as much in Star Wars as it does in reality. It's not the Jedi, it's the entire Star Wars Galaxy.

Ahsoka's training in totj is different. Anakin makes her do it, because he does not consider the training she gets otherwise enough. I'm calling it abusive because it's held secretly in what is not a training room and the Clones also Question it, because it's out of the norm.

We talked about that arc in the replies. The children are not Padawans, they are younglings and thus don't have masters. They were kidnapped from a training exercise. We aren't shown if the Jedi searched for them and were simply unable to find them, or if they thought they had died.

Luminara thought the Padwans were dead. They only survived because one of the indestructable tanks happened to go into the room they were in and they happened to get into in in time. Even then they were almost dead when the others found them. Their survival is a miracle, not something expected.

[dragon-in-a-fez]

my personal Star Wars conspiracy theory, since none of you asked, is that the solar panels on TIE fighter wings only generate like 1% of the power the ship needs and the Empire put them there as greenwashing propaganda

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Anakin is to Ahsoka as Palpatine is to Anakin

and I feel like we need to talk about that more.

[riana-one]

I am pretty sure the expulsion to face her potential execution for the Temple bombing she didn't do and having to go on the lamb to clear her name with only Anakin and Padme trying anything to save her might have a bit to play with Ahsoka being disillusioned with the Order in the end.

And the non apology and bribe of knighthood when the truth came out because the teenager turned political scapegoat has rational doubts after facing her own death because the Jedi Order would sacrifice a child they raised in a heart beat.

It isn't like they sold off Anakin the minute it bought them brownie points when Palpatine first tool office.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

See, the Jedi Council did try to clear Ahsoka's name and to get her out of prision, it's just that Ahsoka broke out, following what she tought to be Anakin's plan for a while, before realizing the person helping her was an unknown and still following their plan, and then teamed up with Ventress. What is important about that arc is that Anakin's teachings have removed Ahsoka so far from the Jedi mindset, that she doesn't have the patience to wait until the council finds a solution, or the clear-headedness to recognize that the escape makes her seem more suspicious.

For all intents and purposes, Ahsoka looks guilty. It does not matter what the Jedi believe about her character. They've been wrong about things like that before (Pong Krell, Anakin...). And it turns out to have been a Padawan, just a Padawan who was not Ahsoka. Barriss being the bomber would've just seemed as unlikely as Ahsoka. To add to that, the Jedi can't just skip a trial. Non-Jedi Republic citizens died, it's no longer just a Jedi matter. What do you want them to do? Lock her up in the temple for safe-keeping (putting all the other Jedi in the temple at risk) so that the Republic can't arrest her?

And the Jedi did not sell off Anakin? I am genuinely confused what you're talking about.

[riana-one]

The Jedi Order took a teenager, one they had a duty and responsibility towards, and tossed her the wolves because protecting her or just taking a moral stance at all might damage their political standing with the Senate.

They didn't care about Ahsoka, a child that the Council personally knew, taught, and turned into a weapon of war before she was a legal adult.

They left her out to face her potential death alone and /Ahsoka/ is to blame for not trusting the system that set her up to die?

I really don't understand the definition of 'family' where the organization that leaves a child to be potentially executed and still thinks they can claim the high moral ground.

If one of your children is so radicalized and desperate that they want to bomb their own home in order to protest a war that they were forced to fight maybe, maybe some internal self reflection is appropriate.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Maybe you should consider, that all the Jedi were drafted. They had no choice. I also literally didn't say anything about their standing with the Senate. THEY DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER CHOICE THEN TO PUT HER THROUGH A TRIAL. Unless they want to start a civil war with the republic, they can't do anything other then to try and prove her innocence in court. The system is turned against all Jedi. If any of the Councillors were put in Ahsoka's situation, they would stay in their cell and believe that their fellows will find a way to get them out.

I also don't know why you're so convinced that Ahsoka would get executed. We see Barriss in prision. She survives past order 66.

They don't try to claim the high ground. They don't have another choice. You yourself explained why Ahsoka and the Jedi are a family. They raised and taught her. They took her in and sheltered her until they were forced to send her to war.

Are you trying to justify the temple bombing? The Jedi know that the war is having a bad effect on their members, they just can't do anything about it. Jedi are dying by the dozen, but they can't leave. They tried to do their duty and walked straight into a sith trap. They have no where else to go. If they just retreat from the front, inncocent people would die and none of the republic military officers would try to work with the clones. They would have to abandon the republic in a war they know to be run by Sith, because they would have to flee Coruscant after being branded as traitors.

I ask you again, because you didn't answer the question before: What would you have them do?

[riana-one]

You do understand that 'just following orders' is not even an excuse that Stormtroopers can use to avoid accountability let alone the elite warrior monks that claim a monopoly on the Force?

Drafts can be dodged.

Principal stances can be made.

Maybe even debate the nature of going to war for a corrupt government that can't even defend itself without chattel slavery?

Or just protect the actual /child/ given over to your care and provide for them even if makes unpopular political waves?

[tiredjustsoverytired]

It's not about "just following orders" i don't know where you got that from, as I didn't mention that phrase once. And what accountability do you want them to take? Trying to work within the law to find evidence for Ahsoka's innocence, even though she looks guilty from all angles?

Drafts can be dodged, but not by an entire religious organization that is largely in the public eye and employed exclusively in the high ranks. Especially not if innocent people would die. Inncocent people that they could save, using their magic powers. Especially not if their entire philospohy and identity as people is based on helping people and tied deeply to the republic. Jedi want to help people. They don't want anyone to die, if they can help it.

The Jedi can't leave. The entire war is a trap by the Sith that's been a Millennium in the making. There is no way for all of them to just escape.

The Jedi can't exist without public approval. That's not about politics, but about survival. They need the public to like them so that they can help the most people. All of their members were born and taken in. They don't make money. They most likely need the republic to get supplies. 'Unpopular political waves' is a cute expression, because it makes it sound like that's not hugely important for the continued existance of any group of people. As if the Jedi, being the biggest group of force-users that most people know about, aren't seen as representatives of Force sensitives in general.

You can't protect a child if you don't have the means to. You can't protect it if you're being hunted. You can't protect anyone if your entire people (even ones not in ypur group) get prosecuted for being traitors.

Once again, the Jedi can't leave. Once again, Ahsoka has all the evidence stacked against her.

There is no choice. The Jedi are trapped.

[legalandnotease]

And what accountability do you want them to take? Trying to work within the law to find evidence for Ahsoka's innocence, even though she looks guilty from all angles?

What did I just read? No seriously... you typed a sentence describing basic due process of law as if it was some kind of absurd notion that should be discarded.

Yes---- they should've investigated and found evidence because that is what justice and morality requires! You investigate so that the wrong person doesn't get punished and the real perpetrator doesn't get away with doing bad things. Why is this hard?

"But she looked guilty!" isn't an argument, its an excuse. Its an excuse for people in power to shirk their responsibilities and not do their jobs. Its the kind of excuse a corrupt police officer or politician might make for a gross miscarriage of justice because actually doing the right thing and finding the real perpetrator was just too hard.

They need the public to like them so that they can help the most people.

Okay. Wrongly convicting and prosecuting somebody for a crime they didn't commit doesn't actually make people like you. In fact, it tends to have the opposite effect.

If the Jedi wanted people to trust them, they should've done a proper investigation. Failing to do so made them look incompetent and corrupt. You can't be the "guardians of justice" when you very publicly allowed a gross injustice to happen to one of your own people because it was politically convenient.

Everything that went down with Ahsoka made the Jedi look bad. People are not going to trust an institution that can't even do right by its own members.

What would happen next time the Jedi came along to "protect people"? They would be "you're the guys who wrongly executed an innocent teenager and allowed the real bomber to escape, and now you claim we need you to stop the innocent dying?"

See how the Jedi now have zero credibility?

There is no choice. The Jedi are trapped

There is absolutely a choice: the Jedi could have investigated. Even if it was hard, even if there was political pushback - because doing the right thing is what wins you friends in the end. People see it, that's what makes them like you and rally to your cause.

Doing what is easy or politically expedient doesn't. It just makes you complicit in all the bad shit that is happening.

People didn't turn on the Jedi because they were stupid or manipulated: they turned on the Jedi because the Jedi had become corrupt. So corrupt that they mistook political convenience for morality. So corrupt, they allowed evil to continue because challenging it might cause them difficulties in the Senate.

People saw that. That's why they didn't like the Jedi. Its also why Ahsoka didn't trust the Jedi.

Anakin didn't make her distrust the Jedi: they did that themselves. Nobody is going to trust an institution which abandoned them twice and them subjected them to wrongful arrest and imprisonment.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

They are working within the law. They're trying to gather evidence, but then Ahsoka escapes and it's simply so much harder now. All the evidence that has been found so far (Ahsoka seemingly chocking a woman to death on video, breaking out and seemingly injuring and killing a lot of Coruscant Guard troopers and later being seen with known enemy of the republic Asajj Ventress). She looks fucking guilty because all the evidence is against her. Had she gone back into her cell and not picked up her lightsabers when she saw the troopers on the ground, it would've been pretty obvious that she wasn't the person responsible.

All the evidence suggest Ahsoka is guilty. Everyone thinks she is guilty. The non-Jedi that were working at the temple and got affected by the bomb and all of Coruscant thinks Ahsoka Tano is guilty. Not complying with the Republic's Justice system would've looked like the Jedi were letting someone get away with murder, just because they are a member of the order. They would've needed to have evidence to prove her innocence, which they did not have.

Ahsoka gets arrested. The Jedi are being forbidden from seeing Ahsoka (Anakin gets escourted out by Corries with activated weapons). Everything about Ahsoka's trial is under Tarkin's control, which is stated in the episode. Then she escapes while Anakin is trying to visit her. All of this happens in the same episode on a very very fast timeline. It's dark out when Ahsoka gets imprisoned and it's still dark out when she escapes. That is not a lot of time to gather evidence when Anakin seemingly also just learned that she's being held captive and arrives while she escapes.

The next thing we see of the Council has Tarkin (the guy the republic put in charge of the investigation) telling them that "after further investigation there can be little doubt that the clones officers murdered in the escape were killed by none other then Ahsoka Tano herself". All evidence suggests that Ahsoka did it. The council is shown to not be happy about it, but they officially agree that Ahsoka probably killed that woman and the troopers, because that's waht the evidence says. They are not investigating because they've already sent a council member and Anakin out to capture the presumed terrorist threat, that is hanging out with Sith Apprentice and Seperatist General Asajj Ventress the next time they lay eyes on her.

Throughout Star Wars all we see the Jedi try to do is help. To the point that the Jedi's desire to help and rescue people, their morality, their compassion, is stated to be the weakness you have to exploit if you want to kill them. Lukas descripted them as intergalactic therapists. But they are 10000 and over 2 trillion people live on Coruscant alone. They are spread thin and fighting a war they have slowly been manipulated into over the course of a 1000 year long plan by people that want them dead. It's a pretty big plot point in rots that the Jedi don't trust Palpatine and that they can't even stop him from forcing Anakin onto the council. The public during the Clone wars sees the Jedi as War General that just can't seem to end the war, some seem to really like and trust them, others don't. The rebellion likes the Jedi so much they use their "may the force be with you" phrase.

[legalandnotease]

Um yeah- so what you're describing there isn't due process.

Had she gone back into her cell and not picked up her lightsabers when she saw the troopers on the ground, it would've been pretty obvious that she wasn't the person responsible.

That's a bad as saying a person is guilty if they run and we should convict people on that basis alone.

Even "terrorists" are entitled to legal representation and a trial by jury. Heck if the Jedi convicted everyone who hung out with terrorists Obi Wan should've been in prison several times over because of his little escapade with the Death Watch.

What was done to Ahsoka wasn't in the remit of any justice system anywhere. Period. Tarkin never presented any evidence; he just claimed he'd seen it. Tarkin is also a military general: Ahsoka isn't a member of the GAR. Neither are the Clones. Tarkin shouldn't have any jurisdiction over this case.

You don't try a minor who isn't a member of the armed forces in a military court without any kind of representation. You also failed to mention: the Jedi had to formally expel Ahsoka for her to be put on trial in the first place.

They didn't question anything. They didn't ask why this highly irregular procedure was going on, they didn't ask why due process wasn't being observed. They're just "nope this will make us look bad, so bye I guess!" (And you wonder why she didn't trust those guys?)

Throughout Star Wars all we see the Jedi try to do is help. To the point that the Jedi's desire to help and rescue people, their morality, their compassion

If "helping people" requires you to participate in slavery and use child soldiers, you probably need to rethink your priorities.

Lukas descripted them as intergalactic therapists.

Yeah, I've read that interview several times and this quote is taken out of context. It was actually a joke, and Lucas described them as "negotiating at the point of a lightsaber". Which means forcing people to comply with a threat of violence if necessary.

It's a pretty big plot point in rots that the Jedi don't trust Palpatine and that they can't even stop him from forcing Anakin onto the council.

Its also a major plot point that they trusted Palpatine enough to let hm have unsupervised access to Anakin for over a decade. That's either complacency or child neglect- take your pick.

The rebellion likes the Jedi so much they use their "may the force be with you" phrase.

Yes, that's because institutions which no longer exist tend to get mythologised and made out to be better than they really were. None of the members of the Rebellion were actually alive when the old Republic were around, or their view wouldn't be so positive.

Also "May the Force be WIth You" is basically the equivalent of saying "God bless you" - its not specifically a Jedi phrase. Just something people say. A greeting.

Anyway, what does any of this have to do with why Ahsoka doesn't trust the Jedi? Wasn't your original post that big bad evil Anakin made Ahsoka distrust the Jedi who did her no harm ever? Instead of the canon reality that they:

Left her for dead in a warzone

Left her for dead on a training exercise

Expelled her from the order, allowed her to be tried in a Military Court

Anybody would lose trust an institution which treated them like that- and that's definitely not how a "family" acts.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

It doesn't mean she's guilty, but it does make her look it, especially since it lead to her working with Ventress and being found with explosive nanobots. Staying and not doing anything would've shown that there's more going on.

She did have a trial. That's the point. Padmé represented her. They were overwhelmed, because Tarkin had a video in which Ahsoka seemingly strangles someone with the force. He had multiple witnessess to her escape (which didn't only leave the injured troopers in the halway), her working with Ventress and her in a warehouse with the bots. There's multiple people that were injured in her escape. There's video evidence of that, too, because they had surveillance drones.

Tarkin is in charge, because Palpatine wants him to be in charge. Ahsoka is a Commander of the GAR - Tarkin shouldn't be in charge of her because he's an Admiral of the Navy, but Palpatine stands over the Navy and the GAR and the Senate because of his emergency powers, and can thus do what he wants. If he wants Tarkin in charge of the entire affair, then he will be. The Clones are the GAR, but they are still shown obeying the Admirals.

She didn't need to be expelled to be held captive. And the Tarkin made it pretty clear, that the Jedi had to expell her (with vegue threats about not doing so being seen as defying the Senate).

They didn't need to question it, because it's pretty obvious. Weird shit is going on because the Temple was bombed and multiple republic citizens and Guard Troopers died - it's not just a Jedi matter and because the Temple is a big public thing, the entire affair is a big public thing. And Star Wars doesn't always follow real World logic. Why is Padmé Amidala allowed to make a snap judgement to release one of the most destructive and elusive enemy generals for one person, without any consequences? Because there's a war and people were given far more power then they should've ever had in emergency motions and because Palpatine has the ultimate power over everything.

I'm not talking Jedi-Clone relations here. Aside from notable exceptions (Slick) canon shows us the Jedi and Clones getting along and caring for one another. This post explains their relationship far better then I could. As for child soldiers - SW often has children in postions that are not acceptable in our world. Naboo is ruled by child-queens that have child-assassines as canon fodder guards. The Rebellion has child soldiers like Sabine and Ezra and no one cares. Boba Fett is a pre-teen bounty hunter and then goes to adult prison. All of this is normal in Szar Wars. The Jedi Padawans are Commanders because the rules of the GAR deem it so and because they would've gone on dangerous missions even without the war.

I don't know where you got that from, but i got my intergalactic Therapists quote "They’re aren’t an aggressive Force at all. They try to — conflict resolution, I guess, is what you might — intergalactic therapists." from this Interview transcript (or this video around 28:50).

There was a pretty big change after that decade in the form of Palpatine suddenly amassing a substantial amount of power through emergency notions during a war that he handled very badly.

It has only been twenty years since the republic fell. There's multiple Jedi in or working with the rebellion. Bail Organa and Mon Mothma were both on the Senate during the Clone Wars. What are you talking about, "none of them were around"?

Before the fall of the Republic we only see the Phrase used by Jedi. It's only once the Jedi have been mostly massacred, that we see other characters use the phrase. Granted, other force religions like the Guardians of the Whills also seem to use it. We do not see it used as a greeting, it's used like "Goodbye and Good Luck".

It has to do with the post because it's a response to your previous message. I also don't know how we got started on the wrong Jedi Arc, because Ahsoka distrusts the council and escapes following what she initially thinks is Anakin's plan immediately upon first capture and then escapes, before any of the trial stuff even happens. What training exercise did you mean? The one that Anakin secretly organizes where Clone Troopers shoot at Ahsoka until she passess out and then start right back up when she wakes? And when do they leave her for dead? They search for her when she gets captured. Do you mean when Luminara thinks Ahsoka and Barriss died under the rubble of an entire Geonosian colony?

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Anakin is to Ahsoka as Palpatine is to Anakin

and I feel like we need to talk about that more.

[riana-one]

I am pretty sure the expulsion to face her potential execution for the Temple bombing she didn't do and having to go on the lamb to clear her name with only Anakin and Padme trying anything to save her might have a bit to play with Ahsoka being disillusioned with the Order in the end.

And the non apology and bribe of knighthood when the truth came out because the teenager turned political scapegoat has rational doubts after facing her own death because the Jedi Order would sacrifice a child they raised in a heart beat.

It isn't like they sold off Anakin the minute it bought them brownie points when Palpatine first tool office.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

See, the Jedi Council did try to clear Ahsoka's name and to get her out of prision, it's just that Ahsoka broke out, following what she tought to be Anakin's plan for a while, before realizing the person helping her was an unknown and still following their plan, and then teamed up with Ventress. What is important about that arc is that Anakin's teachings have removed Ahsoka so far from the Jedi mindset, that she doesn't have the patience to wait until the council finds a solution, or the clear-headedness to recognize that the escape makes her seem more suspicious.

For all intents and purposes, Ahsoka looks guilty. It does not matter what the Jedi believe about her character. They've been wrong about things like that before (Pong Krell, Anakin...). And it turns out to have been a Padawan, just a Padawan who was not Ahsoka. Barriss being the bomber would've just seemed as unlikely as Ahsoka. To add to that, the Jedi can't just skip a trial. Non-Jedi Republic citizens died, it's no longer just a Jedi matter. What do you want them to do? Lock her up in the temple for safe-keeping (putting all the other Jedi in the temple at risk) so that the Republic can't arrest her?

And the Jedi did not sell off Anakin? I am genuinely confused what you're talking about.

[riana-one]

The Jedi Order took a teenager, one they had a duty and responsibility towards, and tossed her the wolves because protecting her or just taking a moral stance at all might damage their political standing with the Senate.

They didn't care about Ahsoka, a child that the Council personally knew, taught, and turned into a weapon of war before she was a legal adult.

They left her out to face her potential death alone and /Ahsoka/ is to blame for not trusting the system that set her up to die?

I really don't understand the definition of 'family' where the organization that leaves a child to be potentially executed and still thinks they can claim the high moral ground.

If one of your children is so radicalized and desperate that they want to bomb their own home in order to protest a war that they were forced to fight maybe, maybe some internal self reflection is appropriate.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Maybe you should consider, that all the Jedi were drafted. They had no choice. I also literally didn't say anything about their standing with the Senate. THEY DO NOT HAVE ANOTHER CHOICE THEN TO PUT HER THROUGH A TRIAL. Unless they want to start a civil war with the republic, they can't do anything other then to try and prove her innocence in court. The system is turned against all Jedi. If any of the Councillors were put in Ahsoka's situation, they would stay in their cell and believe that their fellows will find a way to get them out.

I also don't know why you're so convinced that Ahsoka would get executed. We see Barriss in prision. She survives past order 66.

They don't try to claim the high ground. They don't have another choice. You yourself explained why Ahsoka and the Jedi are a family. They raised and taught her. They took her in and sheltered her until they were forced to send her to war.

Are you trying to justify the temple bombing? The Jedi know that the war is having a bad effect on their members, they just can't do anything about it. Jedi are dying by the dozen, but they can't leave. They tried to do their duty and walked straight into a sith trap. They have no where else to go. If they just retreat from the front, inncocent people would die and none of the republic military officers would try to work with the clones. They would have to abandon the republic in a war they know to be run by Sith, because they would have to flee Coruscant after being branded as traitors.

I ask you again, because you didn't answer the question before: What would you have them do?

[riana-one]

You do understand that 'just following orders' is not even an excuse that Stormtroopers can use to avoid accountability let alone the elite warrior monks that claim a monopoly on the Force?

Drafts can be dodged.

Principal stances can be made.

Maybe even debate the nature of going to war for a corrupt government that can't even defend itself without chattel slavery?

Or just protect the actual /child/ given over to your care and provide for them even if makes unpopular political waves?

[tiredjustsoverytired]

It's not about "just following orders" i don't know where you got that from, as I didn't mention that phrase once. And what accountability do you want them to take? Trying to work within the law to find evidence for Ahsoka's innocence, even though she looks guilty from all angles?

Drafts can be dodged, but not by an entire religious organization that is largely in the public eye and employed exclusively in the high ranks. Especially not if innocent people would die. Inncocent people that they could save, using their magic powers. Especially not if their entire philospohy and identity as people is based on helping people and tied deeply to the republic. Jedi want to help people. They don't want anyone to die, if they can help it.

The Jedi can't leave. The entire war is a trap by the Sith that's been a Millennium in the making. There is no way for all of them to just escape.

The Jedi can't exist without public approval. That's not about politics, but about survival. They need the public to like them so that they can help the most people. All of their members were born and taken in. They don't make money. They most likely need the republic to get supplies. 'Unpopular political waves' is a cute expression, because it makes it sound like that's not hugely important for the continued existance of any group of people. As if the Jedi, being the biggest group of force-users that most people know about, aren't seen as representatives of Force sensitives in general.

You can't protect a child if you don't have the means to. You can't protect it if you're being hunted. You can't protect anyone if your entire people (even ones not in ypur group) get prosecuted for being traitors.

Once again, the Jedi can't leave. Once again, Ahsoka has all the evidence stacked against her.

There is no choice. The Jedi are trapped.

[legalandnotease]

And what accountability do you want them to take? Trying to work within the law to find evidence for Ahsoka's innocence, even though she looks guilty from all angles?

What did I just read? No seriously... you typed a sentence describing basic due process of law as if it was some kind of absurd notion that should be discarded.

Yes---- they should've investigated and found evidence because that is what justice and morality requires! You investigate so that the wrong person doesn't get punished and the real perpetrator doesn't get away with doing bad things. Why is this hard?

"But she looked guilty!" isn't an argument, its an excuse. Its an excuse for people in power to shirk their responsibilities and not do their jobs. Its the kind of excuse a corrupt police officer or politician might make for a gross miscarriage of justice because actually doing the right thing and finding the real perpetrator was just too hard.

They need the public to like them so that they can help the most people.

Okay. Wrongly convicting and prosecuting somebody for a crime they didn't commit doesn't actually make people like you. In fact, it tends to have the opposite effect.

If the Jedi wanted people to trust them, they should've done a proper investigation. Failing to do so made them look incompetent and corrupt. You can't be the "guardians of justice" when you very publicly allowed a gross injustice to happen to one of your own people because it was politically convenient.

Everything that went down with Ahsoka made the Jedi look bad. People are not going to trust an institution that can't even do right by its own members.

What would happen next time the Jedi came along to "protect people"? They would be "you're the guys who wrongly executed an innocent teenager and allowed the real bomber to escape, and now you claim we need you to stop the innocent dying?"

See how the Jedi now have zero credibility?

There is no choice. The Jedi are trapped

There is absolutely a choice: the Jedi could have investigated. Even if it was hard, even if there was political pushback - because doing the right thing is what wins you friends in the end. People see it, that's what makes them like you and rally to your cause.

Doing what is easy or politically expedient doesn't. It just makes you complicit in all the bad shit that is happening.

People didn't turn on the Jedi because they were stupid or manipulated: they turned on the Jedi because the Jedi had become corrupt. So corrupt that they mistook political convenience for morality. So corrupt, they allowed evil to continue because challenging it might cause them difficulties in the Senate.

People saw that. That's why they didn't like the Jedi. Its also why Ahsoka didn't trust the Jedi.

Anakin didn't make her distrust the Jedi: they did that themselves. Nobody is going to trust an institution which abandoned them twice and them subjected them to wrongful arrest and imprisonment.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

They are working within the law. They're trying to gather evidence, but then Ahsoka escapes and it's simply so much harder now. All the evidence that has been found so far (Ahsoka seemingly chocking a woman to death on video, breaking out and seemingly injuring and killing a lot of Coruscant Guard troopers and later being seen with known enemy of the republic Asajj Ventress). She looks fucking guilty because all the evidence is against her. Had she gone back into her cell and not picked up her lightsabers when she saw the troopers on the ground, it would've been pretty obvious that she wasn't the person responsible.

All the evidence suggest Ahsoka is guilty. Everyone thinks she is guilty. The non-Jedi that were working at the temple and got affected by the bomb and all of Coruscant thinks Ahsoka Tano is guilty. Not complying with the Republic's Justice system would've looked like the Jedi were letting someone get away with murder, just because they are a member of the order. They would've needed to have evidence to prove her innocence, which they did not have.

Ahsoka gets arrested. The Jedi are being forbidden from seeing Ahsoka (Anakin gets escourted out by Corries with activated weapons). Everything about Ahsoka's trial is under Tarkin's control, which is stated in the episode. Then she escapes while Anakin is trying to visit her. All of this happens in the same episode on a very very fast timeline. It's dark out when Ahsoka gets imprisoned and it's still dark out when she escapes. That is not a lot of time to gather evidence when Anakin seemingly also just learned that she's being held captive and arrives while she escapes.

The next thing we see of the Council has Tarkin (the guy the republic put in charge of the investigation) telling them that "after further investigation there can be little doubt that the clones officers murdered in the escape were killed by none other then Ahsoka Tano herself". All evidence suggests that Ahsoka did it. The council is shown to not be happy about it, but they officially agree that Ahsoka probably killed that woman and the troopers, because that's waht the evidence says. They are not investigating because they've already sent a council member and Anakin out to capture the presumed terrorist threat, that is hanging out with Sith Apprentice and Seperatist General Asajj Ventress the next time they lay eyes on her.

Throughout Star Wars all we see the Jedi try to do is help. To the point that the Jedi's desire to help and rescue people, their morality, their compassion, is stated to be the weakness you have to exploit if you want to kill them. Lukas descripted them as intergalactic therapists. But they are 10000 and over 2 trillion people live on Coruscant alone. They are spread thin and fighting a war they have slowly been manipulated into over the course of a 1000 year long plan by people that want them dead. It's a pretty big plot point in rots that the Jedi don't trust Palpatine and that they can't even stop him from forcing Anakin onto the council. The public during the Clone wars sees the Jedi as War General that just can't seem to end the war, some seem to really like and trust them, others don't. The rebellion likes the Jedi so much they use their "may the force be with you" phrase.

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

I have been thinking about this scene for a year now...

It's just so.... creepy. There's no other word for it. It's also incredibly good, obviously, and visually striking, and very well written, and that's the whole thing about it.

To the characters, nothing too out of place is happening - Cody and Obi-Wan are in dire straits, Anakin shows up, brags, and says he can get them out of that mess, completely unbothered by the battle around him.

To us though, it's framed in such a way it gets very eerie and just on the verge of frightening.

We go from a standard tense battle scene with everything exploding around us and blaster bolts zipping by to Anakin suddenly appearing out of nowhere, the music dropping abruptly and the battle sounds getting more distant as the only thing that remains is him.

Right in the middle of the frame, Anakin towers over us and everyone else. And then he stands on the top of some debris, overlooking the destruction, and the music suddenly turns very disquieting - soft and foreboding, and very out of place, like Anakin is.

Anakin being completely at ease in the midst of the chaos and not even paying attention to what's around really highlights how insanely powerful he is. He's essentially god-like here.

Immovable, the only thing affecting him is the soft breeze running through his hair and tunics. You can even see the light shining down upon him. He is framed like a savior, an angel.

He's above everything and seemingly untouched by fear, suffering - even dirt.

And it's just frightening, because in contrast you have the music suddenly telling you to be worried, and dead bodies at Anakin's feet as he quips, and Anakin's sly and softspoken comments when Obi-Wan is frantic, exasperated, at the end of his rope - everything just reminding you that this right here is the most powerful man in the universe and he knows it now. The scene makes you experience what it's like to be around Anakin Skywalker, the son of the Force, and to feel who he is.

And again, it's just so creepy because of how out of place Anakin's power is - how out of this world he has the potential to be. And it's so worrying because you know how the story ends, and so you know this is the shadow of terrifying things to come.

[gffa]

It’s that moment of “You’re overdoing it.” Obi-Wan says to Anakin that really does it for me.  It isn’t just that Anakin is ridiculously powerful (though he is), but that even with that ridiculous amount of power, he’s reckless with it. It reminds you of Vader because Vader is reckless with his power, but he always finds a way out because that’s just who he is.  You’re seeing that in Anakin here.  But you’re also seeing Anakin helping people, that he’s trying to help defend them from the Separatists, but it’s also that he’s not really taking care anymore, he’s just whizzing through the battle because it’s so easy and that’s the seductive lure of the Force, that you’re faster than average humans, you’re able to feel things average humans can’t, you’re more agile and more powerful than average humans, it’s so easy to just whiz through a battle. We’re seeing Anakin shedding that sense of really taking his time, shedding that sense of being careful.  The motivation behind it is still working towards the good, like, is he wrong that the sooner they get done with this battle, the sooner the people here don’t have to deal with being attacked?  Of course he’s not wrong.  But he’s also shedding a sense of being careful and we all know exactly where it’s going to lead, that shedding of the sense of caring about how you move through the galaxy, when you’re a one-man walking nuclear weapon. Anakin is the most powerful person in the galaxy, he’s comfortable in wielding that power, and he’s no longer truly being careful about it.

[river-silvestri]

Adding to the bit about when the music turns disquieting, I swear there’s like a bar of a slowed down variation of the Imperial March, which, with the immaculate sound editing of that season, can’t be a coincidence.

Also my appreciation of this incredible scene has just increased tenfold, because holy shit, they knew what they were doing.

[smhalltheurlsaretaken]

I wasn't sure about it being the Imperial March, but since other people are hearing it, yeah, I think that's it. Which makes the tonal dissonance that bigger and the scene that creepier.

[antianakin]

Just to comment on Anakin's behavior, I think for me the reason it's creepy and disquieting isn't that Anakin isn't being CAREFUL. Anakin's been reckless from basically the beginning of this show, we see multiple instances over multiple seasons (beginning in season 1) where Anakin is reckless with other people's lives.

The difference in this scene for me is the ARROGANCE of it all. The SHOWMANSHIP of it all. It's not that he's not being careful anymore, he knows precisely what he's doing and the effect that it has and THAT'S THE POINT. Anakin isn't just ribbing Obi-Wan the way he normally does, Anakin is intentionally making Obi-Wan feel small. No part of that feels accidental in this scene. He asks why Obi-Wan is crouched down behind some rubble, but I don't FOR A MOMENT believe that he's genuinely uncertain about that. Anakin is putting on a show to prove just how much better and stronger and more powerful he is. Anakin is having FUN here while people die around him.

And that's his entire motivation in this scene. Yes, he HAPPENS to end up helping save Obi-Wan and the rest of the 212th who are left, but that's INCIDENTAL. He's not helping people because he wants to help people, he's helping people because that makes him a HERO. If his primary motivation had been to save Obi-Wan, he wouldn't have bothered with the several minutes of grandstanding. He clearly already came in with a plan, we see the 501st already getting into place later as a part of that plan, so he has no real questions about what's happening nor does he need the extra time to figure out what he's going to do. He doesn't really NEED to waste that time, he could've walked right out into the middle of that bridge from the start and achieved the same effect. Or his conversation with Obi-Wan could've been less condescending and derogatory, he could've literally just said what his plan was in the time that he takes to be insulting.

But he doesn't. He INTENTIONALLY wastes time with grandstanding and showing off and being arrogant. The problem isn't a lack of being careful or an excess of recklessness, it's almost the opposite. Anakin is so confident in his own skills that he knows he can take extra time to fuck with Obi-Wan's head and prove himself Obi-Wan's better and still be the hero who saves everybody.

It's the ARROGANCE that crosses over with Darth Vader to me, that's what tells me just how consumed he already is by his own darkness. It's the certainty that he is the best, strongest, most powerful, most cunning person in the world, and the desire for everyone around him to KNOW IT. It's not enough to just do what needs to be done to save them, it's not enough to explain his plan to Obi-Wan and have him praise it or agree with it, that doesn't ensure that Obi-Wan is left AT ANAKIN'S MERCY the way that this does. And Anakin LIKES THAT, he LIKES having Obi-Wan at his mercy this way, he LIKES having power over Obi-Wan and the 212th (and arguably the 501st since they only get to move on his signal), he LIKES being able to hold their lives in his hands for as long as he wants to do so and there's nothing they can do about it.

[andorology]

suddenly the rebellion is real for you. i've been in this fight since i was 32 years old

[paternobuchimechanism]

the way the clones and the Jedi’s cultures became so intertwined always gets me so teary.

Airo was literally the youngest of young for soldiers (he’d been named for a grand total of one day), and his dying words are still a Jedi / Force saying.

he didn’t have to spend years upon years with Obi-Wan for the Force- for the Jedi- to mean something to him. it just did. naturally. because he heard what the clones said about Obi-Wan and the Jedi and he trusted them and it wasn’t just him.

they all trusted and loved their generals, and the Jedi trusted and loved them in return. and that’s why Order 66 is SO deeply gutting

[battlekilt-deactivated20240928]

To love the Jedi, is to love the Clones.

To love the Clones, is to love the Jedi.

The same was true for them.

And thus, was their tragedies.

[mrfandomwars]

Am I the only one confused with the whole idea that clones are kids? Like what?

You are aware that they are adults by TCW, right? "Oh, but they are 10/13-?!" And Grogu is 50 and still a toddler, age is weird in GFFA so if you want to complain about the clones being """"kids"""" because they age differently and are chronologically kids yet physically (and mentally) adults then complain about Grogu not paying taxes.

"They were raised in Kamino and basically had no childhood-" Then what? If you go with that argument, then every abused child or any child who was forced to grow up too fast is now a child then, congratulations, you don't have to pay taxes!

Or heck, let's take that to the extreme, from now on every one who didn't have a similar childhood to mine is now a child.

Do you see how stupid that sounds?

Clones are adults, yes you may argue that they are 20 at the start of the war and still technically young, go off, but don't forget they are adults, they may not have a to of liberty bc of their situation in the Republic but still. Adults.

[getooine]

I’ve been playing the PS2 game Bounty Hunter recently so I really wanted to do a Jango Fett piece and for some reason the first thing that came to mind was that quote from the 90s supermodel Linda Evangelista: “ I don’t get out of bed for less than $10,000.”

[getooine]

Edit: in case anyone was curious about what the bounty said :

[divenlydecayed-deactivated20260]

Did you hear a new love language just dropped? yeah its crazy. Its called just fuckin biting them.

[k1ntsug1-r0b0t-g1rl]

reblogging this but shaking my head the whole time to show i don't believe in love languages

[caspersen-beech]

enjoy my little babyyyy fox

the aurebesh is the same as the words “resistance is futile/ necessary”

the idea for this came from me looking up mandalorian armor color meanings and realizing that scarlet symbolizes resistance. and that lead to me imagining a freshly off kamino fox painting his armor the color of the republic. as he grows and is exposed to all the horrors he keeps the red, not because of the republic, but as a silent ‘fuck u’ to the system hes trapped in.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

Klik-Klak, the sole Geonosioan survivor, is making me more emotional than anything else in rebels to this point. I wish him and the egg the best.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

@metalhawk i, too, would love to see the au from your tags

[milliekenobi99]

I’ve been thinking a lot about terms I’ve only seen in fanon for Jedi, such as “lineage-sibling” or “grand-padawan”, and I have no problem with the terms in themselves and have also used them in my fics, but I often wonder what that would actually mean to a Jedi. If specific familial references would actually hold that much weight. We know the Jedi consider each other family, but it’s based on community and shared devotion more than anything else, and that’s definitely special and beautiful. I just think some have a tendency to project a very nuclear structure onto independent lineages and I don’t think that’s a realistic lens through which to view Jedi culture, since most of them don’t know (or even want) life outside the temple. Like, I don’t think a lot of Jedi would have to dignify their masters by comparing them to a parent, because they are pretty far removed from the concept of one or two parents, and already value and love their master as a teacher and mentor, and that is the part that’s meaningful for them. I’m not trying to gotcha anyone with this, it’s just something I think about when writing Jedi family. I think sometimes we undersell how community based they are.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

I think the usage of "grand-padawan" and "lineage-sibling" make sense even in the non-traditional view of family that the Jedi have.

You could understand them as words that are only used for lack of a better term (for authors and in canon), because there a reasons you might still want to describe how someone stands to you in relation of your teaching-lineage.

The are most likely experiences and quirks that are lineage-specific, weird habits of your Master passed on from their master that only their other Padawans could understand, or you might want to brag about how well your student taught their student.

Describing these realtions as "lineage-sibling" or "grand-padawan" is simply quicker then actually explaining everything. (It also makes it more understandable to outsiders)

Same thing goes for "Creché-Sibling". You simply grew up together and know each other better because of that and you have common experiences, because you all had the same caretakers. At least there's an alternate term to describe this relationship, that doesn't have the same traditional family dynamic connoctations: "Crechémates"

[antianakin]

What I'm actually saying: Star Wars is a story about how one person's choices can have ripple effects and consequences on everyone else, and this message is conveyed to the audience via the main character's narrative arc. So there is nobody in the story whose choices have more impact on the story than the main character (Anakin), nobody whose choices determine the fate of everyone else more than the main character (Anakin), which means that there is no one MORE responsible for what happens in the story than the main character (Anakin) because this is just literally how stories and characters work.

What Anakin fans seem to hear every time: Anakin is the only one who did anything wrong and everyone else is completely blameless in everything.

[elinorjaneofmanyfandoms]

Buckle up, kids, cause it's time for my string of thoughts about the Ahsoka show! And grab your popcorn, 'cause there are a lot of them. (Also, spoilers for any Star Wars movies/shows/what-have-you mentioned in this post.)

I wanted to like this show. I truly did, and I was initially hopeful. And there were lots of things I did like! But as the show wound on, the storytelling choices left me furrowing my brows and then huffing in high frustration. (And then ranting to @featherquilt1988, who has been very patient with my tirades. XD)

So here are my main critiques of the show:

It was a fundamental mistake to tie Ahsoka's story with the story of the Ghost crew. On paper, this sounds like it would work: the last chronological appearance of Ahsoka was with Kanan and Ezra, and she did spend a good deal of time with the Ghost crew in Season 2 of Star Wars: Rebels. But if you look at the episodes where Ahsoka appeared, they add up to less than half of the whole season. When she does show up, it tends to be for Jedi business--going with Kanan and Ezra to rescue children from the Inquisitors, going to the Jedi temple on Lothal for answers, going to Malachor on Yoda's instructions, that kind of thing. Overall, she seems to have stepped down from her primary role as Fulcrum once Phoenix squadron banded together--this shows that her path is different from the Ghost crew's. So in the Ahsoka show, fusing these characters together, particularly with the Jedi missing, does not actually mesh well, and it doesn't actually let any characters fulfill their story potential.

Ahsoka's attempt to entwine characters' internal growth with the external threat came across like two separate plots that occasionally intersected. On paper, again, this arrangement should have worked: Ahsoka is trying to stop the bad guys from finding Thrawn, and she had a falling out with Sabine years ago. Sabine has no family but Ezra anymore, and her only chance of finding him is to locate Thrawn. So she and Ahsoka have to work together again. But the way this played out on screen looked to me like a tug-of-war between topics. 2.5 episodes would be spent on character development (of a sort) and then pivot to "oh, yeah, there's a threat to deal with" and the plot focus switched to that. Rebels actually meshed character growth with exterior problems extremely well, but this show did not. I think a lot of it has to do with combining characters who don't have much reason to interact (see previous point) and also retconning much of what came before (see next point).

The show undid--or just ignored--the character development from Rebels. I'm thinking specifically of Sabine here--in Episode 3 of Ahsoka, she has a sparring/training session with Ahsoka that is pretty much a beat-for-beat repeat of her character arc in the Rebels S3 episode "Trials of the Darksaber." You're asking me to believe that Sabine forgot everything Kanan taught her at that pivotal moment of her life? Or at least it didn't ring any bells that she'd been through this kind of lesson before? The show ignoring Sabine's previous growth is particularly egregious because "Trials of the Darksaber" seems to be a fan-favorite episode, and it's extremely well done because of writing, pacing, buildup, music, animation, everything. To try to repeat that success with a different character in the mentor role (and since the previous mentor was a solid and popular character) is just...pointless.

On that note, I really do not agree with Sabine's character and choices in the Ahsoka show. The show did not provide enough information upfront on why she acted the way she did--why she felt abandoned and that Ezra was her only family. The truth is hinted at in bits and pieces, and eventually--like, way late in the season--we learn that Sabine's blood family was wiped out by the Empire, and that eventually led to her falling out with Ahsoka. But this still doesn't explain why Sabine felt that Ezra was the only person left to her. Hello, Hera was still around right? And Chopper? And I didn't hear a peep about Zeb, which is really weird because he and Sabine were a dynamic duo and very close in Rebels. Maybe she felt abandoned because she was alone on Lothal, but the overall tone of the show seemed to indicate she felt alone in general, despite the surviving members of the Ghost crew. This leads right into...

Sabine's choice to hand over the map. Oh, my goodness, this one frustrates me to no end! Because Sabine (in this show) feels alone and abandoned, when the bad guys ask her to give up the map that will lead them to Thrawn, and possibly Ezra--she hands over the map. She at first seems torn over the choice but ultimately decides to risk Thrawn returning for a chance to find Ezra. But here's the thing--Sabine has personally met Thrawn. She knows how dangerous he is. He was a constant threat to Phoenix squadron. He is responsible for pushing the TIE defender program that ended up killing Kanan (her father figure). And Ezra's whole reason for being MIA in the first place? For exiling himself to parts unknown? It was to get Thrawn out of the picture and to free his homeworld. Would Sabine really risk undoing all of that just for a chance to see Ezra again? I don't think so. I could buy this choice if she clearly had an ace up her sleeve and was playing the bad guys' game to stop them--but this is not how the situation was written.

There was almost no mention of Kanan at all! He is name dropped once in Episode 5 or 6. Yay. And the reference is not at all to longtime fans but doesn't fully communicate who he is to newbies! I don't know if you could drop the ball any harder if you tried. And I'm not just saying that because Kanan is my favorite Star Wars character. He had a massive impact on the Ghost crew--he was their leader, father-figure, and friend whom they all loved dearly. His involvement in Sabine's and Ezra's lives was responsible for so much of their growth. He and Hera had the most solid romantic relationship ever depicted in Star Wars. But to include Kanan in the Ahsoka show--to spend time showing his relevance to the characters--would take up time that has nothing to do with the stakes of the plot. Nor does his impact really matter, since Sabine apparently forgot everything he taught her! To include Kanan in this show doesn't work. But to exclude him makes even less sense because of the choice to include characters from the Ghost crew. It's a no-win situation that could have been avoided by not forcing these particular sets of characters together.

So after all that, how does the show end? Things are mostly reset, back where they started. I'm not kidding. Ezra makes it home, but Sabine and Ahsoka are left stranded in parts unknown. Same situation, different characters. Oh, except Thrawn did make it back to the main galaxy, so Ahsoka's whole objective failed. And Ezra's sacrifice from Rebels? Exiling himself and Thrawn to parts unknown so that Lothal could have peace? Undone. Completely undone. This turnout of events is particularly frustrating when you consider that the self sacrifice point was hammered home in the final season of Rebels. And now Sabine makes a selfish decision just to see Ezra again? A choice that could have serious repercussions for the whole galaxy? What actually IS the point here, Filoni?!?!

Sigh. Again, there were things I liked. The music was gorgeous, mysterious and ethereal sounding. The costumes struck me as more Star Wars-like than a lot of recent stuff. The sets were great, and the actress for Sabine did a great job! She was believable as a live-action version of the character from Rebels (poor writing choices aside). A small detail I like is her having painted nails--Sabine loves color, and I headcanon that she would totally paint her nails if she had the opportunity!

And Ezra--oh, my goodness, Ezra was PERFECT!! I cannot praise that depiction enough! His actions, expressions, mannerisms...he was completely believable as an older version of of Ezra. I may even watch the second season of Ahsoka just to see that portayal again. This is a Big Deal. (I learned later that the actor did watch some key episodes and did a little research for how to portray the character. It paid off). 10/10, no notes.

Overall, though, this show was frustrating, not only because of the poor writing and characterization--but because Filoni has successfully done in Rebels what he tried to do in this show. The change is utterly baffling. I pray my own original writing never takes a downturn like this. And hey--I'm proven right again that whatever modern Star Wars tries to accomplish, Rebels did it first. And better.

[tiredjustsoverytired]

The entire set-up of the Ahsoka becoming Sabine's Master does not make sense.

Why is Ahsoka, who does not call herself a Jedi, doing Jedi things like travelling with Huyang (he should be at Luke's temple. He has the most knowledge about the Jedi out of anyone alive. That knowledge needs to be protected) and taking an apprentice? She's not a Jedi, she doesn't need one of those.

And why is the apprentice Sabine? Either she was force sensitive and no one noticed before, or she was not force sensitive but "trained" and now she is. The former does not make sense, because between Ahsoka, Ezra and Kanan someone would have noticed. The latter scenario does not make sense, because for what reason would Ahsoka decide to teach a random person to use the force, when it's simply not needed. Both scenarios stand in conflict with established canon, because one should not be able to happen and the other makes everything that Palpatine and Gideon do in Clone Wars, Bad Batch, the Sequel Trilogy and the Mandoverse (to whitch Ahsoka kind of belongs) unnecerssary, stupid and a total waste of time and ressouces. There is no need to create force-sensitive clones if you can simply create one and learn to use the force. There is no need for Midichlorian tests if you can simply train harder to get the force. There is no need to kidnapp and torture force-sensitives into falling to the dark side, if you can just make your loyal followers learn how to use the force. There is no need for anything to happen at all if anyone can just learn to use the force. Why didn't the Rebels train people to become force-sensitive, so someone could fight Inquisitors? Why didn't the Empire just teach people to use the force, so their army would be stronger? Why aren't there wild darksiders and force-wielding crime lords running rampant in the galaxy? Why didn't the Kaminoans just teach the Clones how to use the force, so that they could neep up better with the Jedi and so that Palpatine would have a ready-made army of perfectly enslaved force wielding super soldiers? Because it doesn't make sense.

The show would've worked better if it Ahsoka's apprentice was some new kid she found in a bad situation and if she leared to reconnect with her Jedi heritage through that kid. The show should focus only on Ahsoka and her own struggles, and then we could've maybe also mentioned all the other Jedi she was connected to, like Lumanra Unduli, Barriss Offee, Yoda, Plo Koon, Aayla Secura (, the youngling from the gathering arc) and Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan famously requested her as his Padawan first and even calls Ahsoka "our Padawan" when talking to Anakin. She has so many complex remationships that deserve to be explored outside of Anakin. Even if I would appreciate the show actually diving into their relationship critically - could even explore that warning from her future to her past selve in the Mortis Arc.

And all that Stuff with Sabine, Ezra and the Rebels Crew in general could be it's own story.

Or Jecen Syndulla (the actual child) could be Ahsoka's Padawan and the mistakes grown woman Sabine makes on purpose could instead be fuck-ups by a child that sees Ezra as a connection to his dad (as his brother) that he deperately wishes for or that tries to return Ezra to his sad family member Sabine (if you want to keep her Angst) to make her happy again.

There's lots of stories you could be telling, but Filoni chose to go with the worst options.