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Prince Vortigern.
King Vortigern's armor & crown in King Arthur Legend of the Sword 4k
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(I realise now I've finished writing this: This post contains extensive discussion about suicidal ideations and suicide in general. Please be careful if you know that that's something you struggle with ❤)
I'm a bit insane about the prince's tale anyway but something that will absolutely not leave me is the narrative parallel that is set up between Albus' and Severus' conversation right after Lily's death and the one after Albus puts on the ring.
When Severus is at his lowest, when he feels like all is lost and he has failed in protecting the person that mattered most to him in the world, he expresses a wish to die.
And Albus, when confronted with the accute suicidality of a young man he's responsible for reacts in a way that honestly, shocked me more upon reading it the first time than anything Grindelwald-related that was revealed about him in DH prior to that.
He asks: "And what use would that be to anyone?"
It's shockingly cold. It's so far removed from anything we've seen from Albus so far.
Imo that's because before tpt we've only really ever see Albus when interacting with Harry. And Harry, a boy he views as everything he wishes he himself could be but never was, he loves. But Severus? In Severus he sees himself. Others have made this point before, so I won't get into it for long, but the parallels are clear: A young man from a broken home, intelligent and socially other (*cough* neurodivergent *cough*) to a point where they have trouble connecting with others, falls in with a bigoted ideology that promises him freedom and then pays by loosing someone important to them. And that's the point at which we find Severus in this scene. Albus knows it and how does he react? With coldness bordering on cruelty.
I made a point about the clear parallels between Albus and Severus and how Albus sees himself reflected in him because I think one can reverse-engineer the way that Albus deals with his own struggles from this. Someone correct me if I'm forgetting something, but besides Severus, Albus is the only person to very directly state a death wish in the books. (One could argue about Harry in the lost prophecy, but that's debatable.) He does so while drinking the potion ("Make it stop! I want to die!" And "KILL ME!") and yes, while the state he was in was clearly caused by the potion, I think the reason the potion worked at all was because it was drawing upon the drinker's preexisting despair. Whatever Kreacher or Regulus experienced during drinking and subsequently expressed would have been different. So I think it's save to assume that at some point or points during his life, Albus was actively suicidal. And the reason he didn't go trough with it can be found in the way he talks to Severus during his moment of deepest despair: "What use would your death be to anyone?"
It's honestly heartbreaking to me, to think of a young Albus Dumbledore, fresh off the death of his sister and mother (they died within about 2 month of each other after all), wanting to die and the only reason why he doesn't do it being that he still needs to be of use, he still needs to make up for Ariana's death, he needs to attone.
And I'm even more heartbroken when I consider that canon shows that he never truly leaves that mindset behind. When he sees Severus, sees himself reflected in his brokeness, he hasn't learned to be kinder. He passes on his own trauma by being just as harsh with Severus as he was with himself. (And yes, there was a strategy to it too, to bind Severus to the cause. But there was also the facette of wanting Severus to come back to the "right path". And how did he enact it? Through judgement, atonement and "making yourself useful", as he's done for himself for almost a century.)
The final nail that seals the coffin of this interpretation for me (does that metaphor even work? whatever) is the way that Albus brings about and then strategically uses his own death. First, the reason he dies is absolutely self-inflicted. He didn’t have to touch the ring to destroy the horcrux, it was 100% his wish to see Ariana again, to finally, again, atone. He says that he lost his head, forgot that it was a horcrux and thus most likely cursed. The fact that he was able to forget at all, though, says something about the value he places upon his own life. It matters nothing, if he can only reach Ariana.
And then, of course, he remembers his duty. He destroys the Horcrux within the stone, he calls Severus. He gets told he has a year.
He immediately accepts that, no bargaining, no grief, no sadness. It's quiet satisfaction and cold calculation from then on out. It's absolutely striking to me that more people don't read this as ... concerning.
The two scenes are some years apart in the timeline but within the prince's tale we read them almost back to back. Albus has just told us his answer to feelings of suicidality: Not until you've atoned. Not until your death is useful.
Well, he's just found a use for his own death. And he'll take it gladly.
There is absolutely room for interpretation here but and I don't think Albus has been actively suicidal this entire time. But I think I've made my case that he was suicidal at one point and that the feelings that were at the root of that suicidality never got properly adressed.
What's my point here? (apart from a characterisation detail and narrative parallel (between Albus and Severus) that makes me want to chew glass)
I think it's that scene within the prince's tale leaves a lot of people, rightfully, angry at Albus. Honestly, it does that to me, too. But I also can't help but feel sorry for him. It reveals to us the contempt he holds for himself reflected in his judgement of Severus. And while he has no right to treat Severus like that (who is after all, his own person) I also can't help but feel an enormous amount of sympathy.
This absolutely correct. Albus has been suicidal in my head for a long time.
Hell in my head the only reason he hasn’t done it yet is due to Voldemort still being alive.
I think it makes for a really interesting contrast. Albus being suicidal, Voldemort wanting to live forever. Hell you can throw in Gellert begging for death in DH as a contrast too.
That old man needs a therapist.
I had an interesting thought popping up reagrding this yesterday...I think the lowest Dumbledore ever was at was, ironically...right after the defeat of Grindelwald.
Because he was suicidal before and the whole "I am only useful to the world if I can protect it from the dark guys" was active in his head as well. And now? After the 2nd November 1945?
Not only had he finally, ultimately, severed ANY bond with Gellert, his one and only love, at this point, but he had likely also sacrificed people and friendships along the way (The FB movies do hint that he's manipulative back then already, too), the people that had died (his parents, Ariana, likely Aurelius) were still dead and his 'purpose' (=defeating Gellert) has been fulfilled. At his point, 1945, Voldemort was not even a thought on the horizon, so technically, the next in line to be defeated was not yet standing. I think, with all of that burdening him, the years after 1945 were really hard on Albus and I wonder how he survived...
Oh the angst of it all! Delicious :D
Gonna say, i love your interpretations but mine is a bit different.
I agree that one of Albus' worst moments in his life, mental health wise was directly after defeating Grindelwald, for exactly the reason you mentioned prev. I think though that it is tied with the time following Ariana's death. Setting the obvious trauma of both of these instances aside, I think these were the moments in Albus' life where he completely lost his sense of selve (in case of Ariana's death) and his purpose (in case of defeating Grindelwald). And if he was ever actively suicidal (which I do believe for the reasons described above), it was during these times.
Now I think that he didn’t spent all the times in between or after acutely suicidal for the simple reason that this man is a perfectionist and well ... we know he never succeed in killing himself. If he truly decided to kill himself and stuck to that decision, he would have succeeded at some point. Imo he probably seriously contemplated it a few times, maybe even made preparations, but never went through with it.
After Ariana, my headcanon is that he tried to find a cure for her "illness". (I personally do not count the FB movies as canon. It's at best an alternative movie canon. But whether or not you count the whole obscurial thing doesn't really matter here.) This research would have given him a sense of purpose, even if it was a desperate one. And it might have lead him to work more closely with Nicholas Flamel and maybe he and Perenelle were a stabilising influence on his life. Eventually the transfiguration post opened. That meant even more work and more importantly, it meant Albus could hide in Hogwarts from what he feared most at the time and for most of his life: His own ambitions.
Fast forward a few years, Gellert's star is on the rise. (and by that I mean, he's actively committing atrocities which are bad enough to make the front page of the daily prophet all the way across the chanel) Now here's where my differences with the FB movies become relevant: I don't think it was common knowledge that Albus and Gellert even knew each other, mich less that they were close. The only people who knew where Aberforth and Bathilda and neither would bring it up in front of the ministry. Nor do I think that Albus would be pressured from the outside to intervene. Why would he? At this point he's well known in academic circles as a brilliant researcher and to the general public as a popular teacher. He's not a hero and he's not Dumbledore™️ yet. No I think the mounting pressure to confront Gellert came only from within (and maybe from some particularly pointed comments from Aberforth). And it was killing him. Albus is his own worst judge of character. Nothing anyone could say would be worse than his internal monologue as the death toll keeps rising. I think this is where Albus life-long number one coping method first appears: compartmentalisation and disassociation. He goes about his business, teaches, publishers research, invents spells (he isn't a political figure yet). He works and works, often till exhaustion because that way, he doesn't have to confront the headlines and the pictures of dead civilians and the sinking feeling that protecting the world from himself maybe isn't enough to make amends for Ariana's death. Maybe, he'll have to protect it from Gellert, too.
Eventually, it becomes too much. He can't hide anymore. He thinks he won't survive the duel. He's at peace with it. Like so many decades later, he thinks his death would have a purpose (if he takes Gellert with him).
Miraculously, he survives the duel. They both do. (Why? My headcanon is that Gellert, unlike Albus, was not prepared to kill. The elder wand, ever choosing the person who is stronger, more ruthless, sensed this. It was ready to shift its allegiance.) Albus does to Gellert what he's already done to himself. He shuts him away in a tower, where he can't hurt anyone, where he's safe.
Again, I completely agree that this is where his mental health takes a nosedive right to the depth of the Mariana trench once more. Not only has he just had to fight the man he loves loved, he's also just had to confront everything he's kept neatly compartmentalised for decades —the memories surrounding Gellert, Ariana's death and the question who killed her, the many lives that were lost to Gellert because he, Albus, didn't step in sooner — and I think that alone brought him very close to the brink.
How does he cope then?
He becomes the Dumbledore™️ we meet in the books. Now at first, I think Albus would have hated the attention he got after defeating Gellert. He doesn't think he deserves the praise, the awards, the hero-worship he gets from the press and from various governments, who are all tripping over themselves to show their gratitude.
Again, since I don't think Albus' and Gellert's history would be common knowledge, he appears to be a very simple hero, the knight in sparkling robes who stepped up out of the no obligation, but simply because of his own innate goodness, to defeat the evil dark lord. Albus knows this to be false. He's not hero. In his mind, he simply stopped the monster, he himself created. In fact, he's saved the world from himself as much as Gellert. But he can't reveal that. His entire life is wrapped up in never showing those darkest parts of himself. So as much as he hates it, in time, he learns to appreciate that mask. The idol that the press created for him and the public adopted, the near-mythical figure that is more idol than man. He learnes to wear it as a mask and shield.
That is when he takes on more political responsibility too, btw. Albus, who is prone to ambition and cannot be trusted with power, can't let himself gain influence outside of Hogwarts. Dumbledore™️ though — the myth that is built around ideas of heroism and wisdom, his brilliance softened by eccentricities — can stand for something politically. He's careful to only ever remain as mediator within those roles (there's a brilliant meta put there, I think written by @dufferpuffer that details how Dumbledore's political roles were all mostly representative or procedural in nature. Edit: found it! ) but he does take them on.
And here he finds his purpose again. Though there's a part of him that still grates at the unfairness of the system, he only ever uses that part to help people in his immediate surroundings. (Doing that he's still got that rebellious "fuck the government" streak.) He doesn't allow himself to ever take radical political action though. He doesn't trust himself with that. (And that is how you get someone who holds such radical views but refuses to ever take radical action. Again there's a meta about that out there somewhere, this time I don't remember by whom.)
The idol, the myth of Dumbledore™️ becomes his purpose. He uses it to isolate himself even more than he already has — Most people aren't even interested in getting to know him personally anymore. Why would you want to shatter such a comfortable lie? — and he uses it to compartmentalise even further. He doesn't have to think or feel about Ariana, or Gellert or his guilt when the majority of the time he is Dumbledore™️, hero, eccentric genius, benevolent yet distant headmaster, someone who is so much a creature of the mind that emotions are only passing things that never touch where it hurts.
That is why I kind of disagree with the first addition (I don't mean this as criticism! I love your interpretation and I'm delighted you gave me the opportunity to write a damn near-novel about my own ^^). I don’t think Albus would have killed himself if it wasn't for Voldemort. I think he would have simply remained as that figure. He would've probably kept himself busy with more academic work, more diplomacy, more advocacy for (let's call them) marginalised people and creatures within the wizarding world. I honestly think he would have died bent over some academic writing at the age of 200. He wouldn't have been happy, he probably would have still been clinically depressed and passively suicidal, but I think he would have remained functional and ... somewhat content within that role.
The funny thing is that I think, these things would have never come to actually claim his life if it wasn't for Voldemort and Harry.
Voldemort is the one who forced him into the role of a general. There is nothing like it before Voldemort in Albus' life and I think that is because after his brief stint of fantasising about violent revolution, he didn't ever want to give himself that kind of power. Having accepted and stepped into the myth of Dumbledore™️ though, combined with his knowledge about Tom Riddle as well as him being a genuine genius of strategy, him taking the lead in the fight against Voldemort becomes a forgone conclusion. I think he must have realised early on that he was the one person most suited for that fight and so he built the order.
And he does feel some satisfaction in that role. After all, it us necessary and again, it gives him a strong purpose, something to project his genuine desire to do good on. But then the deaths keep mounting. Albus is forced to make tougher and tougher calls. He's faced with decisions where he can only save so many people and he HAS to decide who gets to live, impossible choices that nevertheless have to be made. Eventually, he might even consciously sacrifice some to save many, not because he wants to but because the choice is there and he's maneuvered himself into the position of being the one who has to make it. (And he's so used to doing everything by himself, why start sharing the burden now?) I think, this is where the phrase "For the greater good" comes back to haunt him. Somehow, he's come right back to those words and suddenly he HAS to live by them. (For am excellent portrayal of his resentment at that irony,read "35 owls" by letterblade on Ao3. It's a fandom classic for a reason.) A lot of Albus' idealism about the world got lost during those years. If before he was distant and removed from others, this is where he grew cold. (And that's whom we see dealing with Snape in the prince's tale.)
And then, Harry gets thrust into his life. Albus, now firmly in his role as general and comfortable if not happy in his isolation, is suddenly responsibile for one specific child. I think people forget, especially those that tend to still view Albus as godlike (albeit a malicious one), that this was not something that Albus chose. Call it luck or fate, but the prophecy is something that happened to him, just as much as it happened to Voldemort, Harry and even Severus. All of these people had made choices based on but none of them decided that it was going to happen. So suddenly it's not just Albus position in the war that leads puts him in a position where he has to make tough calls, it's literal fate. (I have some half-formed thoughts on the role of fate and the prophecy, both within the stories and the lifes of the people who witnessed it/who it talked about but this is already getting too long)
We get some unusually candid insight into how Albus deals with this emotionally. He describes how he planned around the prophecy, how he worked around it to protect Harry, both for his own sake as an innocent child and as the potential saviour of millions. And he tells Harry that from the start he saw "a flaw in the plan". And that flaw? Love, plain and simple. Albus knew that he wasn't immune to it. But he feared it, feared how it would impede or his judgement and could thus endanger both the world and Harry. After all, when Albus Dumbledore loves, people get hurt. I've always been fascinated by how he says: "I alone could prevent this, so I alone had to be strong." (Quoted from memory from the lost prophecy) it's strangely vulnerable, the admittance that it does take strength for him to isolate himself. And he still fails in this. He grows to love Harry and care for him, not as the abstract concept of an innocent child, but as a real, concrete person.
And here's the kicker: I think in Albus' mind, what happens in book 5 proves his fears are correct. He loves Harry and in loving him, he protected him for too long and so Sirius died and Harry suffered. He tells him as much: "It is my fault that Sirius died." Now I think anyone who is not in Albus head can see clearly that he misscharacterised the true failing here. It's not the fact that he loved Harry, it's that he isolated him from himself and other, tried to wrap him in protective bubble wrap instead of treating him like a person with agency over his own life. (In other words, he acted as he was taught protective love, parental love operates. There's so much of Kendra in him it makes me insane.) And Harry points this out to him: "People don't like being locked up! You did it to me all last summer ..."
It's no accident that this is where Albus' "calm, almost detached" facade breaks and he buries his face in his hands. Harry, his love for him, the role Albus suddenly played in his live and especially how it all came to a head in book 5 imo retraumaticed Albus in a way even he himself didn't see coming, though he was afraid of getting emotionally attached. (Book 5 in general is a study in trauma and how it makes people act irrationally: Harry, Sirius, Molly, Severus and Albus are just a few examples of this. For all that I criticise Rowling, writing trauma is something she excells at.) Harry drags everything he's buried for so long — everything he's compartmentalised neatly away, kept separate from the figure of the myth and idol of Dumbledore™️ whose a creature of the mind and never of the heart — right back to the surface. And because Albus has never learned to deal with this by confronting it, only by shutting it away, he gets overwhelmed by it. It directly contributes to his death. (He also tries to learn from it. One of my favourite things about Hbp is that we see some real character development in Albus in the way he finally confides in Harry.)
This is a very longwinded way of saying that I don't think it's a coincidence that Albus puts on the ring a mere few weeks after his confrontation with Harry in the lost prophecy chapter. This is why I don't think Albus would have been actively suicidal without the war against Voldemort. Without the war against Voldemort, he could have comfortably remained as Dumbledore™️, eccentric, distant academic and hero of the war against Grindelwald, without ever confronting his demons outright. It's the war against Voldemort and the way that Harry was shoved into his live that force him to confront his demons. And that's why they get the opportunity to overwhem him once more.
(This got waaaaaay longer than I intended. I somehow just kept adding to it over the course of three days. Now it's become half a manifesto on how i view Albus as a character instead of a short elaboration on my headcanon re his mental health. I could make it's own post out of it ofc but I think the context of this post is relevant. Anyway, thank you prevs for giving me the opportunity to ramble ;))
Do you think there are homophobic elements in Grindeldore?
Ooooh yeah, i mean here are several homophobic elements in how Grindeldore is written (or more accurately: not written). From both a political and literary standpoint, it’s clear that the relationship is handled with cowardice and erasure.
First, there’s the issue of J.K. Rowling’s retroactive “reveal” that Dumbledore was gay, which was never explicitly shown in the original books and was later confirmed only in interviews. That’s already a red flag, it centers queerness as subtext, not text, as something acceptable only if you know how to “read between the lines.” It’s a very neoliberal move: using diversity claims for progressive clout while refusing to represent that diversity meaningfully in the actual narrative.
Then, when we finally get a story where Grindelwald and Dumbledore’s relationship could be explored — the Fantastic Beasts films — their romantic and emotional connection is again minimized to vague dialogue and zero intimacy. These are supposed to be two men who were passionately in love and driven apart by ideological conflict, and yet the story keeps them physically and emotionally distant. Their bond is never given the same narrative weight as a straight romance would be. That’s not accidental, that’s institutional homophobia, even when it’s wrapped in rainbow capitalism.
Worse still, Grindelwald becomes the archetype of the dangerous, manipulative queer man, the one who “led Dumbledore astray.” That plays into long-standing tropes about queerness being corrupting, irrational, or inherently tied to deviance and destruction. If we’re looking at this from a gender studies perspective, it’s a textbook example of queer-coded villainy and the sanitization of queerness in “good” characters like Dumbledore.
So yes, Grindeldore is not just queerbaiting, it’s structurally homophobic. It punishes queerness narratively, sidelines it politically, and reduces it to tragedy without ever letting it live fully or visibly.
I find this really interesting and have some thoughts.
Personally, I don’t think Grindeldore is problematic representation, though I understand why some might feel that way. A lot of the criticism aimed at the HP books seems to stem more from distrust of Rowling than the text itself. That distrust is valid—she’s not a safe figure for queer people—but I don’t believe her writing is inherently homophobic.
To me, Dumbledore and Grindelwald’s relationship reads as a sincere and meaningful. The fact that it’s subtext doesn’t make it inherently queerbaiting or homophobic. Subtext often reflects the limitations of the time, not deliberate erasure. And in the 90s, explicitly queer characters in children’s books were rare and risky. Rowling revealing Dumbledore’s sexuality later doesn’t make her a great ally, but I don’t find it harmful either.
Dumbledore’s queerness isn’t used for cheap engagement—it simply isn’t central to the main story. Harry Potter isn’t a queer narrative, and writing his sexuality into the plot could have felt forced unless the story was fundamentally different.
The strongest critique and best argument for Grindeldore to be read as problematic, is the tragic and corruptive framing of their relationship which is in line with historical harmful troupes. But I don’t think the narrative supports that interpretation.
Grindelwald’s refusal to betray Dumbledore by protecting his tomb, and his line: “There is so much you do not understand,” both point toward love as a redeeming force in Grindelwald’s life. It is implied that Grindelwald’s love for Dumbledore is what makes him better than Voldemort and capable of remorse. It is clearly meant to be a good thing.
Albus love for Gellert does ‘lead him astray’ but I would argue this is more used as an explanation for why he could be seduced by power and ‘the dark side’, and is supposed to be something we as readers can sympathize with.
Their relationship is the humanizing thread in both characters’ arcs (viewed as romantic or platonic). It's compelling, if imperfect. It feels organic within a story not centered on queerness and most importantly, it’s a good story. Which I find more important than perfect representation.
Love Jude Law as older Dumbledore, but young Jude Law would have been a brilliant young Gellert
Behind every gay person is a gayer, more evil gay person-
1899!Albus would ask Gellert the 'Would you love me if I were a worm?' and Gellert would have burst out a sonnet.
1930's!Gellert would ask it and Albus would have called for the aurors because how did he get inside his office AGAIN-
If Ariana hadn’t of died how long would Albus and Gellert have stayed together???
I think it would have been a year or two then Gellert would have done something too violent that Albus couldn’t stay.
In every universe I think Gellert loses Albus.
The whole reason they separated is that Ariana was killed, and it was partly Gellert’s fault and partly Albus’s. Gellert abandoned Albus afterward, and there was no moral compass left by Gellert’s side. The point is, if this hadn’t happened, Gellert would have been less inclined to do evil, and Albus would have stayed by his side, making smaller mistakes, blinded by love. After all, what could have shaken Albus awake other than his sister’s death?
Also, Gellert was probably full of anger and longing for Albus, and if this tragedy hadn’t occurred, he might have been calmer.
Perhaps, eventually, they would have parted ways after 10 or 15 years instead.
I like the way you think.
I do think Ariana’s death and losing Albus made Gellert much more evil. Gellert is the type of man who hates feeling guilty, often blaming others for it. It’s why I think he’s so resentful of Albus because he knows it’s his fault he lost him very very deep down.
I do think if Albus stayed he would have calmed down but I don’t think fully, Gellert is a violent angry person with Albus.
So maybe it would be a long time till they parted.
Considering that we don't know the exact year of Gellert's birth, we can assume that the time Albus spent alone in the world (before Gellert's birth) is equal to the time Gellert spent without Albus after his death (well, about a year)
Most likely, this is not true, but I just liked the idea lol
Peak tragic old yaoi right here to be by the window and pining for your ex husband.
The real crime of Grindelwald was seeing the future and seeing that Dumbledore would look like Jude Law in his forties and STILL LEAVING!!!!!!!
Rip to him but I would’ve stayed.
You have to watch Shadow and Bone! You will ship darklina. They remind me of grindeldore.
Ugh. I'm anti-darklina. Firmly.
The Darkling is one of my favorite characters ever and I LOVE their dynamic, but not as a romance.
Also, I completely disagree about the similarities other than the hero/villain dynamic. The Darkling waited for Alina's specific kind of power and he set out to use her. Alina doesn't have his knowledge, she doesn't have his years or experience. There is a complete imbalance between them. Moreover, the Darkling actively tries to hurt her, sexually assaults her and hurts her loved ones for the sake of breaking her.
On the other hand, the fact that Albus DID share his level of power, intellect and knowledge was part of what attracted Gellert in the first place. He wanted Albus by his side, he instinctively lashed out when someone tried to talk Albus out of being with him, but he ultimately did not force Albus. I'm not saying Grindeldore is healthy or that Gellert did not hurt Albus and send Credence to kill him. But there is a sense of equality that was always there, as opposed to Alina having to twist her body and her morality to live up to The Darkling's power. Also, Albus himself was never on board with Gellert's methods, but he DID have an incling about his darkness. He knew about his experiments in Durmstrang. He knew that he wanted to use the resurrection stone to make inferi. Gellert probably kept back on mentions of mass-murder, which is still manipulation, but Albus himself was a little too willing to believe that he'd make him a better man. Unlike the Darkling dissimulating his entire identity to manipulate Alina and to seduce her. Albus and Gellert were complicated, but they were not unevenly matched. Even in SoD, when Albus is chosen by the Qilin, Gellert has a look of resignation because YES, he can see why Albus would be chosen. He does not see him as a child. And when he tries to sway him to his side once more he does so openly, addressing an equal.
I won't even start on the fact that Alina ALWAYS loved Mal, who eventually dealt with his struggle and embraced her power with all its complexity even more than she did. And then of course we have Albus and Gellert loving only each other until they died.
Don't get me wrong. The dynamic between darklina is absolutely fascinating, but the romanticized version is just fanon. The canon version is not shippable IMO, but it's much more nuanced and interesting.