Shane Hollander during Landrygate
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@affzinho
Shane Hollander during Landrygate
y'all love to talk about LoserIlya but what about LoserShane? Man stacked up on chips and coke for his man. He built a WELL FOR FRESHWATER in case Ilya was thirsty. He bought a goddamn SEX APARTMENT so that he can scream like a slut when Ilya is 10 inches deep. A Sex Apartment. Read that again actually. An apartment solely for sexual experiments. He suited up to get his man in Tampa and DRANK A CORONA LIGHT. Scrolled down to see Lily immediately after calling his gf "Babe". Pathetic. Tried to get his attention throughout the post-tuna melt game because he didn't wanna lose him
FOR GODS SAKE HE IS LEARNING RUSSIAN. Bitch no man can make me learn Russian it's difficult as hell and I know Arabic.
and most of all....talked about his feelings. Like that is a big thing for Shane Hollander guys, WAKE UP. Shane Hollander never loses a game but he is a Capital L LOSERRRRRR
#the way they're both ready to devour each other
Starting a collection
my high horse is actually awesome and fast like the wind
The less in control of the situation Bruce is, the more he pretends to be in control for Clark.
Let it be known to all superbat shippers that "Cowl off." is a complete sentence.
I've grown up with a parent who would make my own hardships and suffering about themself, so whenever I happen to end up in fics where the focus of Jason's death is on Bruce and Bruce's feelings about it instead of Jason and Jason's feelings I just find it ironic and distasteful.
Jason was murdered, but he's criticized for his anger after it. Jason was murdered, but his feelings are exaggerated. Jason was murdered, but his pain is disregarded. Jason was murdered, and somehow, his adoptive father is the one "most affected", his feelings more "important", his pain and anger more "justified".
It's a morbidly fascinating phenomenon, though, considering Tumblr and the internet at large is full of people traumatized by their parent(s), you would think it would be easier to find more interest/understanding towards the feelings and point of view of the character(s) subjected to abusive/neglectful/irresponsible parenting.
Dc writer look at me. Listen to me. You DON'T have to add foreshadowing for Red Hood in the Jaybin scene. You don't have to do it. Especially because you are bad at it
Dc writer look at me. Listen to me. You DON'T have to add foreshadowing for Red Hood in the young Jason before he met Batman scene. You don't have to do it. Especially because you are bad at it
You know what I would love to see more of? Fic and/or meta that teases apart arch-enemy and most traumatic from deeply hurtful narrative foil, particularly within the larger discussion of the way Bruce, his kids, and the Rogues all reflect and deflect each other.
Let me see if I can explain.
Okay, take Jason. His arch-Rogue is Joker, obviously. That's where the root of his trauma, his hatred, and his antagonistic energy lies, right? But I don't believe, despite what DC has tried to do with Red Hood, that Joker is Jason's foil.
Jason's foil is Two-Face. Self-righteous Harvey, determined to clean up the city his way. Precariously hinged Two-Face, trapped with an enemy in his own head, himself. A potential ally corrupted seemingly beyond redemption, crafty and clever and cunning but corroded by uncontrolled madness. Two-Face is the abyss Jason peers into and sees himself stare back.
So in a fic where Two-Face operates, how does his existence affect Jason? How do his choices echo into the Pit-carved cavern in Red Hood's chest?
And if Jason's antagonist is Joker but his foil is Two-Face, who can be assigned to those positions from the other kids?
——
NB: In my opinion, it's obvious that all of the Rogues are Bruce's foil simultaneously, because each of them reflects a fault in him and a path that he could take if he's not careful. (Harvey is his self-righteousness and despair, Freeze is obsessive devotion to a loved one above all else, Penguin is old money avarice and corruption run rampant, etc. etc. etc.)
I'm actually in literature class right now and we're just introducing what "foil" is. Tumblr has never been so on time and helpful 😮
As a former English major, I am delighted to hear this.
I like the idea of Jason (Robin era) trying to quit smoking and just staring at Bullock's cigar like a starving wolf.
Bullock: Can I HELP you
Jason: No.
Jason: You need to quit smoking.
Okay I might get devoured for this, but I'm gonna post it anyway, so please bare with me:
I feel like Bruce has this belief that Jason never understood why he can't kill right, but also I feel like Bruce also doesn't understand why Jason can. Like he looks at it as a moral failing in so many different iterations from writer to writer but like? Bruce, understanding is a two-way street.
Bruce thinks he'd never be able to come back from taking a life, but then you look down the line at Jason, and Jason can and does. He's not lesser because he kills when he thinks it's the right thing to do, he doesn't lose himself in the bloodbath like Bruce thinks he himself would. Jason doesn't go mad with power, he doesn't go around just murdering any random thug just because.
And I think that damages Bruce a little bit, because he doesn't want to admit that Jason's killing isn't as much of a moral failing as he thinks it should be. I think that Bruce, somewhere in his mind, wanted to believe that if he couldn't do it without losing himself, then nobody could. And I think he can't bring himself to admit to himself that in that regard, Jason has always had a better understanding of the world and his own person than Bruce ever will.
Oh okay!
I totally agree that it’s two things: 1. their different upbringings and 2. The admittance that Bruce can’t do something
So Bruce and Jason very obviously have different upbringings and that definitely affects how they view the world. Jason grew up around sex workers, people struggling with addiction, victims of police brutality and child abuse, etc. and could have known those people on an intimate level. Yes, those things exist in Bruce billionaire world, but Jason simply had a more hands on experience with those kinds of things (via. Seeing it in people he cares about and being a victim of those crimes himself).
So Bruce says “Jason doesn’t get [it]. He never has” but there are things Jason has seen and lived things that Bruce doesn’t get either. Jason saw murders as a child, that’s part of his up bringing. Which means the chances of Jason seeing people (including ppl he cares about) kill in self-defense are monumentally high. It’s easy to assume that seeing people trying to survive, having to survive himself, even in such a manner, effected his belief in what’s right and wrong. Think him as a rebel with a cause.
Because Jason was forced into a non-sheltered life and Bruce purposefully placed himself in harms way but still had the choice to go home if so desired highlights the actual risks in their lives. Jason wouldn’t get to hide away on a whim if he decided ever “no this isn’t actually what I want” like Bruce could. Forced to live in survival mode opened Jason up to have a much more nuanced idea that “good people do bad things to survive (and is usually birthed because of heavy subjecation and out of desperation)”. Think his origins: “i ain’t no crook. I only take what I need to survive.”
Bruce, being sheltered, allows him to keep his “everyone is a good person in some way” view because he isn’t constantly met with opposition from a imbalance of power dynamics because HE sets the precedence of a power dynamic. He’s at the top therefore he has the luxury of continuing to view the world as mainly black and white as he’s never been constantly grasping at straws for the bare minimum.
Furthermore, Bruce is like So Extremely, Incredibly Stubborn. He also parades himself as a man among gods. These are two defining traits of his. Therefore, admitting someone can do something he can’t is like pulling teeth. Bruce is faced with this dilemma that he isn’t the best. But Bruce believes he is the best, so if he can’t do it then someone else also shouldn’t be able to do it. In Bruce’s mind, Batman’s not the standard; Batman is the peak and no one can beat the peak. This admittance circles back to Jason having seen and experienced stuff that Bruce hasn’t and Bruce can’t rectify that Jason may know more on certain subjects than him. Rather than seeing different lives as a “more helpful, insightful view on a situation” Bruce takes it as a blow to his pride and him being “wrong”
I think that all and all, part of the reason Bruce thinks the whole “Jason never got it” is A. Because he never understood Jason’s childhood as well as B. A heavy dose of projection because He. Can’t. Do. It. And if someone else can what does that say about Bruce as a hero? What does that say about him as a father, that he’s forcing his child to deal with all their emotional labor on their own? If he can ostracize Jason on the bases of him being a moral failure, he never has to actually view Jason’s(or anyone’s) life from Jason’s shoes rather from where he constantly views from his own.
Bruce and Jason view life through opposite lens of a power dynamic. Because Bruce has always held the power in most situations in his life, and can have the system working in his favor, he can’t clearly draw a line in grayness. If something has always worked for you, you can try to understand why it can’t work for another and why that’s infuriating but you’ll never get it. The black and white thinking disways the idea “that good people have to do bad things to survive” especially because on some level he considers all criminals the same. Bruce can’t differentiate between “the light in the dark” (ppl surviving) to “the dark” (the ppl subjecting the weak) like Jason can because he’s never had to be the one forced into surviving.
I don't have a high enough level of a vocabulary to express just how good this is and how much I love your more in-depth, critical analysis of Bruce and Jason as well as them operating the same issues from opposite ends of the power balance, so instead I'm gonna ramble like a madman for a second about a few specific parts from your analysis (if you don't mind!):
Something interesting that you brought up was that where as Bruce could, in theory, walk away from being Batman, Jason can't walk away from the experiences that shaped him as a kid. Jason grew up learning how to survive; not necessarily how to flourish, but how to scrape by and keep himself alive even if it meant a trail of lost teeth or blood in his wake. He has this core understanding that sometimes in order to survive, you have to do bad things to keep yourself from ending up six feet under or in a gutter somewhere.
And I think that's the saddest thing for me when I look at how Bruce carries himself as if he's above that, as if he believes everyone should adhere to this morality that he has that very much comes from a place of never really having to fight for anything in his childhood. I'm not saying Bruce didn't struggle, but in terms of basic survival? Bruce always had someone (Alfred or even Leslie Thompkins, for example) or something (his family's wealth and their home) to fall back on in those times. But then you compare that with Jason, a kid that grew up in a low-income, crime-riddled part of Gotham, where there were only a handful of ways to get by and at least half of them were illegal (i.e sex work and drug-running), and you really see the difference between them like night and day.
Bruce witnessed a single murder. Traumatizing, yes, heartbreaking, absolutely. But Jason saw them regularly; Jason witnessed children, maybe even friends, being abused (and in some cases, likely killed by said abusers). Jason saw women assaulted, likely saw people trafficked by crime bosses, and honestly I wouldn't say it's too far-fetched to say he probably knew more than just a few people that died from overdose on a regular basis. He never got the sheltered, golden-boy, privileged upbringing that Bruce did.
And that gift of a happy upbringing, or at least not one that socialized him into understanding where the dark in the world really is, lends itself to his failure to understand Jason in any way that matters. Now I don't know Thomas and Martha Wayne that well, and I won't claim to, but they don't strike me as the type of people that would teach their son the difference between a crime of necessity and a crime of desire. Most likely to them, crime was crime, and children will always be a product of their environment until they learn otherwise for themselves. So Bruce started off already with a base level disadvantage to being able to wrap his head around Jason and his gray morality. Like you said, he probably doesn't get that "good people sometimes do bad things to survive."
Circling back to Bruce and his stubbornness, this man carries himself like a steel safe. It takes just the right code in just the right order to get into his head, and even then, it's likely to fail. I think Jason probably got close, especially during UtRH, but Bruce is so stuck in his ways that he just can't program himself to think differently. He can't believe, like you said, that Batman is anything less than the peak, because then that would challenge what he knows about himself and about who Batman really is as a hero. That would break the safe, and then he'd be forced to look at his own actions and evaluate them to ask if he's really been doing the right thing all this time.
Now, in Bruce's defense (flimsy as this argument might end up but I'm sort of thinking out loud), I believe there's this thing in psychology called the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and I think it represents Bruce in this situation rather well. It's where a person is typically more inclined to continue to sink time, effort, and/or money into a project or endeavor they've already invested a great amount of these resources in, regardless of whether or not the cost outweighs the benefits.
Bruce is effectively trapped in this psychological dilemma, where he looks at what he's done and even if it looks like things are getting worse, he can't convince himself to do it differently. He's done it this way for so long and invested so much into it, lost so much to it (i.e Jason and the trust he held for him, almost all of his close relationships, etc) that it would cause an incredibly damaging shift within Bruce himself to admit that he's been wrong. Admitting he was wrong this long and to such a high degree would be catastrophic to Bruce and his ego; it would, at least to me, effectively shatter Bruce's very fragile understanding of how things work.
Jason, however, wouldn't think much of it. Because Jason never walked the tightrope of pretending to be a man among gods. He doesn't have this straight, tunnel vision view that Good goes on the left and Bad goes on the right like Bruce does, and so he's not limited to picking one path in the maze of morality when both options are covered in spikes. Instead, Jason would just go either up and over the whole maze, or he'd just walk around it to get where he needs to go. Jason, at his core, grew up with "when you can't find a clear path, you make your own" in his veins. It's a key skill of learning to survive.
The duality between the two of them, who very much hold each other at arms length while trying to essentially do the same thing in Gotham, is something that will continue to fascinate me. It speaks to the class-difference as much as the difference between their personal psychology, in my opinion, and I don't think that gets played with nearly enough in comics.
Absolutely Frothing at the mouth over this and your tags. Now you get mine!
Your Sunk Cost Fallacy point is so true(ironically one of my fav devices to bring up in relation to Jason and his efforts to reconcile with his family but that’s a completely different post topic!). It kinda reminds me of the whole “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” Bruce started out as Batman with the intention of being the only one. The idea that anyone would have to take up the mantle would be heartbreaking and horrifying to a Bruce still at the beginning of his career (this is actually why i don’t want any of his kids to take up the mantle permanently after him. It would symbolize another loss, another failure, another tragedy while also keeping said victim from being able to grow out from underneath the shadow of the Bat). Now, it seems to be expected that one of kids will become the next him. No matter how much time the mantle of batman puts into Gotham, nothing seems to be changing, but actually seems to be getting worse. They(the bats) keep doing the same thing, following the same moral compass, adding more sidekicks, continuing the Bat’s legacy, and yet nothing seems to be changing.
Now, many argue that obviously nothing changes because at the end of the day, comics are forever moving meaning eventually they have to be reset to “the standard” and everything happens again and again and again (i.e. insanity) for the sake of story telling. Now, as readers we understand editorial will never actually let Bruce follow through, but that justification also severely takes us out of the story. So editorial never lets Bruce follow through on what he wants(rehabilitating the bad guys/stopping crime/fixing the city/etc. whatever you want to say). Yet, eventually, editorial or not, you have to acknowledge that, in story, Bruce is not accomplishing his goals. Suspense of disbelief, ya? We can extend that to the existence of child vigilantes, but that minute it extends to other plot devices, audiences can get fickle as we want to root for the good guy. The idea that Bruce is unequivocally failing through fault of his own and not due to “outside” measures is not...fun. That’s what makes comics wild. In movies and book series, the heroes can indefinitely win, but in comics, heroes can’t ever have a final bow as comics never stop. Therefore, his failures to achieve his goal keeps piling up and we, readers, have no push back that Batman+Co. are actually making a good, genuine, widespread difference in Gotham.
Furthermore, not only is Bruce wed to his moral compass, he’s also wed to his mission. He can no longer walk away because he’s so deep in believing he’s making change rather than, what can also be read as, him just holding off the inevitable where eventually something has to give. Remember when he was furious at Kate for killing Clayface not necessarily just because she killed but also because it hurt his ego? Undermined his power, control, and authority? it’s like that. Eventually the push back from “the other side” will be so great that everything will once again collapse (ergo: new major city crisis).
It’s funny when people say Jason killing is unsustainable when Bruce’s way is also written as unsustainable. Especially because in RHatO, there are plenty of people Jason genuinely gives a new way of life to (like Duela Dent(which actually goes back to Pre-Crisis) and Suzy Sue) by helping them get out of the life they felt trapped in (heavy addiction and vengeful daughter of a crime family respectively). It’s ironic that Jason kills(going against Bat Code) while also upholding the values(Bat Code) that Bruce tries to push but fails to follow through on (i.e. rehabilitating villains. Also ironically, something Jason tried to teach Bruce about back as Robin with Penguin when the Mob boss was just a jewel thief) (Also is reminiscence of “I'm not talking about killing Cobblepot and Scarecrow or Clayface. Not Riddler or Dent... I'm talking about [Joker]” Jason still believes those rouges can be rehabilitated, but the joker is one of the exceptions that too far gone)
Also funnily, both of these factors, Bruce having no idea who he is without Batman and his rehabilitation of villains, play into each other. If Bruce helps these people become better and it doesn’t work then he’s philosophy’s wrong--he’s wrong--and he wasted all this time believe everyone can be “fixed”(in his own image of what is “correct”), seen so much death, to just be wrong. Or he does manage to rehabilitate the rouges, he manages to actually fix the city’s crime issue through lots of funding and elbow grease, and...it works. No more need for batman, no more need for him. And that scares Bruce because he’s been doing this for so long that he knows no normal outside of “the pursuit for justice.” Bruce is too paralyzed by his own fear to actually follow through on his own morals because either he’s wrong and that hurts both his ego & literally destroys the man he is or he can do what he started out wanting to do and then “the man is actually the mask” becomes obsolete. Batman--the man Bruce says he truly is--dies and who is he if he’s dead? Bruce’s weapon of choice has become his undoing. His paranoia only feeds his need for control which further push his lifelines(his family and friends, the real presence keeping him sane, not his no kill rule(see how he hasn’t killed anyone, but, in rebirth, how obsessive, destructive and ruthless he is when no family is around him)) away which further damages the city, sinking Gotham further into a crisis-ridden police state.
Parallel Bruce’s fear with Jason who scoff at the notion of fear. He finds fear unsustainable because what do you do when the most pressing group of terrorizers aren’t afraid of you? Jason, from living a life in survivor's mode, understands fear is a fundamentally flawed concept of ruling because if all you’re backing on is “people are too afraid to commit crime” that forgets about the population of people pushed into the life, no matter if their afraid or not, as they have to to survive.
At this point, I believe Bruce can’t actually step away from his “mission” as he doesn’t know who he is without it. (another interesting parallel Bruce shares with the rest of Jason’s parental figures: There’s always something more than Jason that they put in front of him. In this case, Bruce cares more about the job rather than his family and friends). But what truly can be extrapolated from all of this is that, in the beginning, Bruce had a choice, Jason did not. Bruce didn’t have to put on the cowl, he doesn’t even have to keep putting on the cowl (especially if he was given like...extensive therapy). Jason was forced to see the shit that shaped him as a child. They were always bound to butt heads in some manner over these issues (maybe not as violently) as their upbringings naturally will, and should, lead them to see the world in very different manners.
AND ALSO!!!!!!!!!
The final confrontation of UTH takes place in Crime Alley. Where Bruce met Jason, and where Bruce's parents died. So Jason saying shoot and kill your own son right here if you want to save his murderer is already Alot. But then you add in aditf.and the gun Sheila pointed at Jason.. and hes telling Bruce to point a gun at him. uth final confrontation you were doing it all...
He needed to feel trust again. He needed to feel that a parent, that Bruce, would choose Jason over the Joker. Let Jason help instead of doing their own plan for themselves and the Joker. And despite it all despite recreating the circumstances of his death to test, to prove. He wants to see it better this time. So badly. He wants Bruce to win. Hes trying to rig it because instead of just putting Bruce in the role of Sheila hes adding elements of Batman's defining moment. Shoot and kill your own son right here in crime alley.. more than not killing, Bruce would never, ever, do that.
A character trait/dynamic that I'm endlessly compelled by is someone dealing with (or, like, failing to) being the child of people who were too busy being good people to have the time and attention to be good parents. This can be anywhere from 'was a public defender who gave a shit working 60 hour weeks with basically no vacations' to 'left their family behind to join the revolution/war effort and is now a universally beloved martyr-hero who saved/remade the world with their final breath' on the groundedness spectrum. The important thing is a viscerally felt but confused and ugly mess of longing, resentment, and guilt about feeling the resentment.
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#the idea that someone can simultaneously be a bad parent and a good person is one that seems to escape a LOT of people#I see far too many people who insist that if someone is a bad parent they're also a bad person#because being a bad parent MAKES them a bad person#“well they never should have had kids if they were going to be bad at it!” cool cool so I don't know if you know this but#not everyone is able to see how things will play out before they happen#also someone may be a GREAT parent for one kid but a mediocre one for another kid#because (and I know this is another pretty alien idea to a lot of tumblr) everyone is different#what one child needs is not necessarily the same as what another child needs#anyway#it's much more fun to explore this concept in fiction than in reality#when it happens IRL at least one real person gets screwed over; in fiction it's an interesting story to explore
So fucking true
I know people who are great as friends for example, but they shouldn't be parents.
my crops are so dry. he needs to be a faggot again
he was a Theater Kid, Denied. jason you need to go back to that. remember how we used to run
i wanna believe some of his rage at tim is cuz he was supposed to be the fruity one and tim stole tbag shit TOO and now jason’s pissed at the absolute off the charts levels of stolen goddamn valor tim has under his belt
batman & the cycle of violence - batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: legends of the dark knight (1989) #6 // batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: legends of the dark knight (1989) #7 // batman: legends of the dark knight (1989) #9 // batman: legends of the dark knight (1989) #9 // batman: shadow of the bat (1994) #0 // batman: the dark knight (2011) #10 // batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: fortunate son (2000) #1 // batman: shadow of the bat (1994) #2 // batman (1940) #603 // batman (1940) #603 // batman: the ultimate evil (1995) #2 // detective comics (1937) #982 // batgirl (2000) #24 // batman: dark age (2024) #1 // batman: dark age (2024) #1 // batman: dark age (2024) #1 // batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: the ten cent adventure (2002) #1 // batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: the ultimate evil (1995) #1 // gotham knights (2000) #1 // batman: war on crime (1999) #1 // year one: batman/scarecrow (2005) #1 // batman: ego (2000) #1 // batman: night cries (1992) #1 // batman: war on crime (1999) #1
it's always intrigued me how bruce's past experiences with violence (and sometimes abuse) isn't emphasized more when people talk about what influences his actions & identity as batman, especially because of how much it adds to the emphasis that he puts on protecting children but also in working to rehabilitate villains or criminals and (as bruce wayne, provide them the resources to do so) because of his genuine and unwavering belief in redemption, and allowing them the chance to grow and get over their own past (and past mistakes)!! much to think about...