494

Doesn't really matter

[mxtxfanatic]

I think it's actually a very important distinction that Mianmian isn’t called a "servant’s (家仆) daughter" by Jiang Cheng but a domestic slave’s (家奴) daughter, actually. I think words mean things, actually, and that Chinese isn't just a bunch of made-up ink splotches and sounds that we can "Interpret" any way we want to.

[mxtxfanatic]

1) Yes Mianmian truly is a slave's daughter, Jiang Cheng isn't just insulting her.

2) There are actually other characters described as "domestic slaves" or the daughters of one in the story, too: Mo Xuanyu's mother (daughter) and Wang Lingjiao. Wang Lingjiao also calls Madam Yu's two servants "slaves" when admonishing them, to which Madam Yu corrects that they are servants and Wei Wuxian muses snarkily that a domestic slave is using the term to insult others like she isn't one, herself.

3) There seems to be a mistranslation from both exr and 7seas about how Wang Lingjiao became Wen Chao's mistress. Exr says that Wen Chao's wife sanctioned Wang Lingjiao becoming a mistress after seeing how beautiful she was, while 7seas corrects this to Wang Lingjiao exchanging (flirtatious) glances with Wen Chao before falling into bed with him, but then 7seas decides to add this line of "with the inadvertent aid from her mistress," which exists nowhere in the raws. I also can't find where the sentence, "Hardly a noteworthy name, and yet, thanks to its masters, one that could not be ignored" appears in any of version of my raws.

[mxtxfanatic]

For another Chinese fan has started combing through the 7seas translation on weibo and cross-posted to twitter for English-speaking fans to see:

But for those with neither weibo nor twitter, here are the screenshots:

[mxtxfanatic]

[mxtxfanatic]

(34-39 are all related to drunken shenanigans #3, which we’ve already established 7seas tool from the unedited version of mdzs.)

[chai-chahiye-yr]

34-39 made my blood boil. It was multiple paragraphs of Wangxian being sweet and showing the steps of WWX’s thought process and being so fond of LWJ. And Suika just slaps all the actions together into 2 paragraphs, deletes entire lines and moves on.

The way she translated all the scenes of drunken 3 has me convinced that she actually doesn’t like Wangxian. And using ‘sinister’ and ‘evil’ to falsely describe some of WWX’s actions and smiles, constantly having characters call him annoying and making LWJ ‘chide’ WWX as if he doesn’t like him being playful, or making LWJ seem overly strict and even hypocritical in his words and actions makes me feel like she doesn’t like WWX or LWJ either.

Like this is so blatant

And frankly there should be a tally for how many times JC was described as ‘upset’, a mild word to invoke pity and sympathy then the actual negative word to describe him 🙄

[wittytrixter]

Every time I see these, I get irritated at 7 seas all over again.

[mxtxfanatic]

Apparently reddit has been having a field day with these cause someone’s mad lmao, but looking through the list again, while I can say that I would have definitely made the same translation choices as suika for some of them, the difference between me and suika is that I am NOT an official translator, I do NOT claim to be an expert in Chinese culture and literature, and I do NOT shop myself for official projects as such. Thus, our quality of work should be nowhere near the same. That it apparently is should be shameful!

[chai-chahiye-yr]

What gets me each time about the ‘break your legs’ threat is Jin Ling’s reaction to it.

Because he doesn’t react.

Jiang Cheng is about 32-33 when the novel opens and Jin Ling is 14. So when we first read this line, Jin Ling is 14 years old and he doesn’t react to the violence in it all. Which means at 14, he’s used to an adult man screaming at him in public about breaking legs. He’s used to it. So how old was he when it first happened? 12? 13? Younger? He doesn’t react to Jiang Cheng’s other insults either.

And it’s not as if Jin Ling isn’t afraid of this threat and thinks it’s a joke or a bunch of hot air. No, the reason he was in Yi City in the first place and got involved was because he was genuinely afraid that this time, Jiang Cheng really would break his legs. He ran away specifically because he was afraid Jiang Cheng would truly hurt him.

Their interactions don’t just include verbal threats promising potential violence either. Jiang Cheng has actually hit Jin Ling multiple times. The hit is hard enough each time that Jin Ling is thrown to the floor. And again, Jin Ling doesn’t react with shock or horror or disbelief. He doesn’t act like the act of being slapped so hard that he hits the ground is something new. He’s 14. How old was he when Jiang Cheng, an adult cultivator, beat him?

It’s undeniable that Jiang Cheng loves Jin Ling and would protect him from life threatening danger, he would 100%. But there is something to be said that Jin Ling’s protector is also the one who raised him with such violence and made it so common that in the present time, Jin Ling cannot handle a simple hug or open words of affection and pride at all.

And what of the future? When Jin Ling is older and realizes, like he started to after meeting the Juniors and Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji, that his upbringing was very different. A very painful realisation about his childhood. About possibly having a child of his own one day and realising how young he was when he was first hit, first screamed at, first felt fear at the sight of his uncle and flinched.

There is a reckoning in the future about how Jiang Cheng treated Jin Ling as a child and whether their relationship survives depends heavily on how Jiang Cheng reacts to these facts. Whether Jiang Cheng is willing to reflect, to realize the impact of his actions, to acknowledge his wrongs and finally, for once, let go of his pride and genuinely apologise to someone ‘lower’ then him in a social hierarchy. How many adults truly apologise to children after all?

If he can then their relationship will survive with hopefully a healthier better future. If not? Then like many other children and their guardians, they will drift apart.

[lavender-phoenix-flames]

Gotta appreciate jin ling, a 13/14 y/o an orphan who grew up with two toxic uncles who lied to him and was never shown verbal or physical affection but was abused by jc and on a level isolated by jin guangyao despite this grew up to be more mature and understanding than jc himself could even imagine to be. He let go of his hatred and understood the situation wei wuxian was in. Truly at the end of the day jin ling is his mother's child.

[darksynkka]

Hence why Jin Ling grew on me while Jiang Cheng is a Get Off My Screen character. Jin Ling started off as an unpleasant character but he grew up a lot while Jiang Cheng is the same unlikeable dick from start to finish. He is a character defined by his unwillingness to examine his own behaviour.

[chai-chahiye-yr]

‘WWX and JC reconciliation’ is such a trash gutter concept if you think about it for more then one second.

What Wei Wuxian did was help the people he owed a debt to, people who risked their lives to save him and JC and put everything on the line simply because helping WWX and JC was the right thing to do. They were Wen! Wen Ruohan was winning! Capturing and presenting the Jiang Heir would’ve given them prestige and riches like no other! And instead they risk everything to save them.

And when time passed and they were the ones who needed help, JC refused and WWX acted with honour. He saved the lives of people because it was the right thing to do. Because a 1year old toddler isn’t evil, a grandma isn’t evil and a bunch of people born with the name ‘Wen’ doesn’t mean they’re evil.

And then Jiang Cheng takes part in the murder of these people. No he leads the charge to massacre the people Wei Wuxian gave everything to protect. He is there when they slaughter them all and dump their bodies in a blood pool and lie to the world about it. He upholds those lies and is famous for ending the Villainous Yiling Laozu. Wei Wuxian believes that A-Yuan is dead because he knows that even a child won’t be spared!

And then after Wei Wuxian comes back, it just never stops. From being whipped and being almost killed again to having a dog set on him, to outright homophobia. Jiang Cheng’s constantly saying slurs against the body of Mo Xuanyu and trying to slutshame Lan Wangji until it gets so bad that Wei Wuxian qi deviates.

Wei Wuxian is so furious that the man he loves is being degraded and humiliated that he spits up blood and collapses. He asks Lan Wangji to take him away from Lotus Pier and never wants to return. He just takes in the ranting and raving of JC to forever be his subordinate and serve under him quietly and apologises but has no intention of anything else.

There is nothing to ‘reconcile’ because there is nothing there. JC Stans may be okay with someone saying homophobic slurs against their loved one and holding up a banner of ‘why can’t we all get along’ about a man who’d throw you to the wolves to save his own skin and pride, but Wei Wuxian is not, most people are not and people who genuinely like WWX and JC both as characters aren’t either. The only thing in common Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng have is Jin Ling’s well being and thats it.

Wei Wuxian is happy and thriving with his husband, he is finally with people who will stand by him and act with honour; with a partner whose moral compass and beliefs aligns with his own completely and he is surrounded with people who are happy for him and uplift him instead of simmering in snide spite and jealousy. Wei Wuxian is happy to night hunt with his husband and travel the lands and then come back to make a home with his favourite person. He has moved on towards a happy blissful future and that’s all that matters.

[chai-chahiye-yr]

People who keep thinking of Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian as brothers don’t understand classism and social hierarchies, dont understand that Wei Wuxian was specifically brought back to be Jiang Cheng‘s servant and subordinate, don’t understand that Wei Wuxian was raised from that point on to be Jiang Cheng’s subordinate and lesser then him in every way and also refuse to understand that Jiang Cheng never once raises Wei Wuxian’s status in any concrete irrefutable way in the eyes of the world.

Wei Wuxian was never meant to be Jiang Cheng’s equal, and never does Jiang Cheng ever publicly claim Wei Wuxian as such; not by way of being raised in the same sect, not by way of being his direct childhood companion and not by even sworn brotherhood.

Wei Wuxian is not Jiang Cheng’s brother, and Jiang Cheng, because of his own insecurities, selfishness and brittle pride, would never accept Wei Wuxian as anything else. Whatever fondness existed was marred and poisoned long ago, leaving nothing but hatred and insecurities that Jiang Cheng never truly found the courage to face.

And Wei Wuxian knows this, knows it again from the last dying words of Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan, knows it as he lives alone on a corpse mountain with no news of Jiang Cheng speaking up for him and then knows it completely when Jiang Cheng leads an army to murder him.

[optimisticmiraclefest]

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

Hii.

Would you consider Nie Huisang, Wei Wuxian's friend??

No. Not in the slightest.

They occasionally hung out for less than three months at a summer school camp and that's the last we ever hear of them having any kind of significant connection and it doesn't cross Wei Wuxian's mind to think of him any deeper outside of the context of Nie Huaisang being a lot more calculated and driven than any one, including himself, could have expected after the death Nie Huaisang orchestrated against Jin Guangyao.

He works in pragmatism to Wei Wuxian's idealism. I think for him to be a friend he has to have significant and vested interest in Wei Wuxian, which he does not, that was for Jin Guangyao, who betrayed his trust, personally, and morally. Wei Wuxian was a means to an end to help him orchestrate his revenge due to Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji quite literally being the only ones competent and concerned about pursuing the strings he left, nothing more.

I personally don't think Nie Huaisang really ever wanted or needed friendships outside of what he once had with his brother and his brother's friends. And as an adult I think his pragmatics take precedence for him to continue going through life, I don't think he has much interest in the idealism Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji are drawn to.

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

There's an irony when it comes to Jiang Cheng constantly referring to Wen Ning as a loyal dog to Wei Wuxian and dehumanizing the act of loyalty from friendship, as his stans constantly speak on how deep and complicated his own demands of service Wei Wuxian owed him like a loyal animal, not a person, are because they think Jiang Cheng emotionally views Wei Wuxian as a brother. Even when we have Jiang Cheng consistently bring up that Wei Wuxian is not a Jiang, he is not their blood, he reiterates he is a servant first and foremost and he ultimately uses Wei Wuxian's position as a threat to keep try to keep him in line but Wei Wuxian's own morals will not let him stand down from callous cruelty that Jiang Cheng sees no issue with.

This is further spotlighted when Wen Ning himself tries to bow to Wei Wuxian (out of perceived failures) and Wei Wuxian literally puts himself of the same level of Wen Ning in the share of the consequences of their choices, putting no more blame on Wen Ning then he does himself. Loyalty for Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning is rooted in understanding and empathy. Jiang Cheng does not know how to extend empathy towards others and belittles that in others with the expectations of being entitled to empathy given to his misfortunes.

Jiang Cheng very much is a classist man as he views a clanless Wen Ning like an animal, Wei Wuxian as a disloyal man who doesn't respect social station, and Jin Guangyao as someone yearning for a position he can not be good enough for due to his birth mother's status as a prostitute.

A man who views others in such a way would not think of Wei Wuxian as a brother in spite of their differences in class status. He is the type to believe class status is to remain as such and his is a birthright to be unquestioned, even when his morals are cruel and lackluster. He is willing to hold the line of social boundaries because it he acknowledged anything more, he would have no way to comfort himself that despite all of Wei Wuxian's talents and morals, he is only a lesser man in the eyes of society compared to Jiang Cheng's blood nobility. His sense of self is reliant on dehumanizing those that he views as socially beneath his status.

[halenhusky309]

The reason we have to deal with so many "Morally Grey Wei Wuxian" takes because Western fans and writers treat "character development" as the "default" good writing advice or dynamic characters as the only right way to build a new character.

I encountered plenty static characters who stayed the same pretty much throughout the story and they were still interested and nuance. People should understand that static character deal isn't about becoming better or worse. It's about how they maneuver the environments and circumstances to maintain their principles, beliefs and who they are as a person.

Wei Wuxian pretty much remained the same person throughout the novel. He still maintained his principles and values. He still had this cheerful and optimistic personality to him. He still followed his mother's advice to pay no mind to the debts others own him. He would still protect innocent folks and showed zero mercy to evil bitches (Based as fuck). He's not someone who held grudge and would never spend his whole life obsessed over folks who wronged him hard (Because if Wei Wuxian was vengeful like certain people claimed him to be, Jiang Cheng would be the first person he would be after for the smoke and then the rest of the Cultivation World)

[greatnesswithoutenvies]

#He's a static character#He doesn't need any character development

Wei Wuxian's character development is his gay awaking. Which he would have seen coming if not for his tendency to rationalize his emotions.

[halenhusky309]

This is the only appropriate character development for Wei Ying. His Gay Awakening, or I should say HWJ Awakening...😌😌😌

[madtomedgar]

The contrast in the body language and overall demeanor of the serving women in Jinlintai between when Jin Guangshan was in charge and when Jin Guangyao is in charge is so stark. In the earlier timeline, they are tense, fearful, looking down, bent at the waist to emphasize their servant status. In the present, they are standing straight, they look professional but relaxed, they're smiling a little. Just. Oof.

[chai-chahiye-yr]

Yeah because he murders the ones who know something is wrong.

In what universe is mass murderer of women and rapist and man who married his own sister to protect his status Jin Guangyao being turned into some champion of women.

[mxtxfanatic]

Anyways, reminded of when Wei Wuxian disappears for 3 months and Jiang Cheng asks where tf he’s been and he’s like “hell on earth” and Jiang Cheng just shrugs it off because he didn’t actually care since what he cared about was that he was left alone not what Wei Wuxian suffered while gone, and how this shows another massive hole in the already riddled “friendship” between the two.

And how a similar thing happens in tgcf where Xie Lian keeps disappearing because he’s being held hostage and tortured and he tries to confide in Feng Xin about it, but Feng Xin only pretends to believe him to his face while going behind his back to tell Xie Lian’s parents what he thinks is the problem—that poverty has driven Xie Lian crazy and he’s not “actually” being stalked, kidnapped, and tortured—because he believes that Xie Lian “losing his morals” (attempting robbery) is a sign of insanity that overshadows any actual signs of trauma that he would be forced to support and find solutions for as a friend since Xie Lian is not his friend in his mind but his god.

I think svsss is the only novel where a character doesn’t downplay another character’s stint into a hellscape (Shen Qingqiu with Luo Binghe’s abyss run), but then again, that novel is about how Shen Qingqiu (MC 1) is the one who pushed Luo Binghe (MC 2) into hell and Luo Binghe is the one owed reparations that Shen Qingqiu does, in fact, want to pay for the betrayal, whereas in the other novels, the betrayals are with side characters who simply have their friendships with the main character shattered for their inability to see the main character’s torture as not simply a personal inconvenience to them, the side character who would be nothing without the main character whose torture they want to downplay.

[halenhusky309]

I remembered that one time, I wanted to point out how both Jiang Cheng and Jin Guangyao ruined Jin Ling by turning him a rotten, cruel kid, a JC stan jumped me and called me name for condemning a teenager rotten and cruel...

Like callously letting the people got stucked in spiritual nets at night to become preys for the supernatural creatures is now just "boys will be boys" moment??? Like you don't find that act cruel?

Seem like they couldn't accept the canon reality that Jiang Cheng was not a good parental figure because "good" jiu-jiu bullshit is just better slop for them to enjoy. It's just so lame.

[halenhusky309]

"Wei Ying indirectly caused the fall of Lotus Pier"... Okay, victim blamer, tell me what should Wei Ying do in that case to save people "without" offending the oppressors, so that they would totally leave the Jiang clan alone?

[lavender-phoenix-flames]

No, the problem ain't being a jiang cheng stan, the problem is you pretending he didn't do the things he did and making him into a character he is not.

"Oh if I was jc, I would been worse" that either tells me you don't understand what he does or you endorse what he does, which is wen remnants GENOCIDE you fucking idiots! Not just that, it's him been a elitist classist asshole, selfish, abusive and homophobic too.

Yall need to see your faves for the loser assholes they are, or just stop stanning characters who are losers assholes if you're gonna makes them into something else anyways...

" I like the character because they are complex!" and the "complex" is being an asshole cuz for you good and kind characters can't be complex, they have to be "morally grey" smh. And then you're gonna act like this "complex" character is actually kind and we are the ones who don't understand them. Yall are insufferable people fr.

[mxtxfanatic]

Starting to notice that a lot of “cultural explanation” metas for mxtx novel plots and characters are completely off the mark when applied to the novels in question because the meta writers keep trying to fit each novel into some sort of historical/literary lineage when mxtx has said over and over again that her novels are neither historically accurate nor genre-adherent. Can’t even say that I haven’t done this, cause I had a whole tangent about how the gods of tgcf ascend and why, just to find an author’s note a month later where mxtx clearly states not to overthink it because her characters ascend “because I said so.”

This is why I always stress turning to the text first to figure out the logic of the story, cause if you turn to secondary sources as your “primary source” for understanding the text, you’re bound to just completely fuck up things that the real primary source—the novel—makes explicitly clear.

[chai-chahiye-yr]

I still think a lot of ‘Lan Wangji needed to unlearn the rules of his sect and break free and learn what true righteousness is etc’ not only comes from CQL, it actually comes from one of the most well known Wangxian scenes

This is one of these scenes that truly stick as Wei Wuxian rescues the Wen remnants and is caught by Lan Wangji. After a verbal dispute, Lan Wangji is left shaken about the events and what is truly right/wrong and lets Wei Wuxian go. At this point, CQL Lan Wangji is very clearly shown to be questioning everything and not stopping Wei Wuxian is the most he can bear to do.

The problem is that after reading the book, Lan Wangji doesn’t actually fit the scene at all. And the scene doesn’t exist in the book for good reason.

Lan Wangji in the book is not some naive, spoiled youth blindly led by rules, or someone questioning what is right or wrong at a base level. Instead there is an entire extra detailing how even as a teenager he would go out and help people even if it meant sacrificing what he quietly wanted because his sense of responsibility means he will try to help where he can. We also know how even as a young child and his mother dead, he refused to move, defying every person, even Lan Qiren, waiting in the snow so he could see his mother one more time. He was called Hanguang-Jun by the people because he travels the lands and would go and help even if it was just a minor case and ignored by larger clans because it gave no benefits to them.

Nothing about Lan Wangji, Hanguang-Jun speaks of a man confused at witnessing cruelty, or human prejudice, discrimination or people fleeing from tyranny. The man just went through a war! He saw his sect attacked! And yet, in The Untamed, Lan Wangji is shown to be completely lost at being questioned by Wei Wuxian, when the truth is that if Lan Wangji had witnessed the camp and been with Wei Wuxian, he would’ve done the same with him. He would not have just stepped aside and dramatically stood in the rain as Wei Wuxian risked everything to save innocents. He would’ve gone with him.

And that is precisely why this scene does not exist in the book because it just doesn’t fit Lan Wangji’s established character, but just like with Wei Wuxian and so many others, The Untamed changed some core details of the original characters which has lead to a growing divide between established book facts and CQL headcanons. And this has lead to an even more divide between fans as CQL watchers and fanfic readers who never really read the book as its own entity, created a nonexistent character arc for Lan Wangji where he ‘learned’ to be moral and righteous only after meeting Wei Wuxian and would’ve blindly followed his sect’s rules, when in reality Wei Wuxian is attracted to Lan Wangji even as a teenager because of his rare moral core and steadfast beliefs that already existed.

[bichensuibian1633]

I hate the narrative that Jiang Cheng sacrificed his golden core for Wei Wuxian. He didn’t.

Jiang Cheng tried to distract the soldiers so WWX could escape. He didn’t think about the consequences, and he never offered his core.

Wei Wuxian did.

WWX walked to the forest knowing exactly what he was going to do. He lay there for hours while his core was removed with no pain relief, knowing he would never be whole again. He endured years of scrutiny from the cultivation world, letting them paint him as a villain to protect Jiang Cheng.

Jiang Cheng made a split-second decision hoping he could escape. He couldn’t, and he lost his core.

Wei Wuxian willingly gave his up. He arranged the extraction himself. And immediately after, he was thrown into the Burial Mounds, where he had to learn to live without a core in the darkest pits of hell.

He never truly recovered. He came back a dead man

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

I don't think I'll ever get over Suika just making it up on twitter . com that Wei Wuxian was adopted by Madam Yu and Jiang Fengmian and that's why he was able to attend summer school classes instead of being yet another disciple as are the other attendees there that are also part of Yunmeng Jiang.

Which in itself is such an out of pocket thing to even try to imply when Wei Wuxian very adamantly says he doesn't want to be assigned to other people's parents when he had his own he deeply loves and honors. For as much as he feels gratitude to the Jiang parents they are not his family. Debt does not make family.

This is in contrast to Lan Sizhui who was raised as a an inner family Lan so his safety cannot ever be rescinded. Lan Xichen directly asks Lan Wangji if he is certain he wants to have the boy raised as an inner family Lan, and Lan Wangji does make sure Lan Sizhui is never made to believe he is not a part of the heritage he was raised within especially when his own was decimated. He was not raised to think less of himself despite the unknowns of his origins.

Wei Wuxian was raised by the Jiangs to be a servant. Despite all the love Jiang Yanli held for him even she was made to keep her distance and mocked for loving him more than what should be a servant's place. She was mocked by her own mother for this, Jiang Cheng mocked the fact that Jiang Yanli didn't treat him as just a servant and the Jins tried to mock that as well. Wei Wuxian also knew what societal boundaries were for their relationship and appreciated what small things she was able to do to try standing up for him.

[halenhusky309]

I will always refer Suika as a hack of unprofessionalism and disingenuous loser that let her own bias towards the certain characters stop her from doing a good job with the translations.

And I will despise the fans that defended Suika's sloppy works as if she wasn't paid to do her damn job.