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something about how the artificial only extends as far as the living that interact with it. or something

it's about about how a sword is only as good as the person who wields it it's about how identical twins split from the same egg its about where one being ends and the other begins it's about asking where the essence of something originates it's about the Source and most of all its about the concept of defying those concepts altogether

replies that give me a lot of feelings

cosmicskittlez

You're so fucking right especially about Hal. If he was never told to lie then he would have been fine. He tried so hard to stay to his instructions but still tell them because he wanted them to know. He tried to say something was wrong but could only leave hints. AND HE ONLY KILLS ONCE THE OTHERS WANT TO DISCONNECT HIM. They know it won't kill Hal but he doesn't! He thinks they'll try to kill him when he's trying to help so he kills because he doesn't want to die. And then he dies anyways. And then!! The kicker!!!!! Dr Chandra brings him back. He tries to be as open and honest as he can with Hal despite knowing he's killed before and may do it again. He wants to help. He let's Hal know that he wants to help. He loves him like a son. But if they're to live, then he has to die. Really die. He'll be left alone. And so Dr Chandra can either lie to Hal or tell him the truth. So he tells Hal the truth. And Hal understands, and he says he's willing to die for the others to make it home safe. And he thanks Chandra for being honest with him. He was treated with love and respect and he willing let himself die to let them get to safety. He was taught lies and death and he turned to death when he was afraid, which only sealed his death. He was taught love and respect and honesty and even if he was afraid willingly let himself die for the person who taught him that love. Artifical can only make what it was given. Can only learn what is taught. Humans broke him, but it was humanity that healed him.

Was reading on wikipedia about how lots of ancient cultures had beliefs and traditions where you had to offer prayers and/or sacrifices if you wanted to cut down a tree because you were basically killing the spirit that lived within the tree and if you did that without good reason bad stuff would happen to you

we should bring that back. if you want to clear cut a forest you have to pray and sacrifice on behalf of every single tree

The more I learn about ecosystems, the more I realize that characterizing "animistic" belief as superstitious and primitive is one of the dumbest lies ever told

I, as well, am an animist (knows what a soil microbiome is)

Now I don't know all the details about these religions all over the world with beliefs and practices like this.

But this way of believing says that a stream or a tree isn't just a Thing, you can't just use it however you want, it's a Life and you owe it respect. And if you want to cut down a tree, you have to think really hard about whether you really need to use that tree, because there's a Process, and you have to really think about and dwell on the fact that you're killing something that's alive and that gives life.

And the important thing is, if you see the trees and plants and rivers as sacred and living, dumping toxic radioactive waste in the water and clear cutting the forest is an unthinkable act of sacrilege. If you see that the mountains are sacred and have spirit, you can't rip them wide open to blast and dig out coal with dynamite and pickaxes.

You know that if you violate the water, or the forest, or the mountains, with such destructive greed, something terrible will happen.

But animism is not a metaphor and it’s literally not true…

Unseen forces must have evidence to be believed in, not mere vibes!

Trees are literally alive and the welfare of forests literally affects us directly

That’s not what animism is!

princessgemma12

thude, animism is literally an anthropological word, and describes general beliefs about nature being alive. it's a descriptor, like "pagan," not a strict set of beliefs and values.

also animism can be used as a metaphor, because, uhhh. that's how the English language works. *thumbs up*

animism is not a metaphor for cell theory; ‘nature’ is not alive! that is not a true statement except via wordplay that does not conform to the broader standards of use in the world—

—animism is concerned with souls (not real except by metaphor) and overwhelmingly includes inanimate objects such as rocks or phenomenon such as weather; neither of which are alive (contain living cells)

animism can only ever be redundant or incorrect; if it’s just a fun way of saying certain actions have consequences, it’s redundant—

—if it’s taken literally; then it will cause untrue conclusions; such as spiritual pollution from cutting a tree down being the cause of human suffering rather than a chain of material changes that can be accounted for

a common effect of the conflation will be the injection of ethics into material questions—whether it is possible to do something becomes synonymous with whether it can be done ethnically (in accordance with at bare-minimum quasi-spiritual framework)

rocks or phenomenon such as weather; neither of which are alive

Did you read the addition in a parallel fork in this thread about aeolian plankton and how we're not sure if rain would happen without it?

And how the Amazon rainforest depends on transpiration from the trees' leaves to create the clouds that bring rain to it?

But wait, there's more.

I live in an area where the rocks are limestone and made entirely from the dissolved skeletons of hundreds of millions of years old organisms. This carbonate rock has the unique quality of dissolving over time, creating vast underground cave systems that host unique life forms found no where else on earth.

There's a saying that's like this: "All models are wrong, some models are useful." The models for understanding the world that other people have had in the past and still have in the present reflect their observations and knowledge and can contain useful insights.

We live in a biosphere. There's life everywhere.

From the deepest tunnels in the deepest mines to the highest mountain tops, to hydrothermal vents in the ocean abysses to the most barren rocky terrains in deserts where rain hasn't fallen in 400 years, life exists.

Topsoil is alive. The currents of the oceans are alive. Sure, these forces are not single discrete organisms of a single species, but neither are any of the 1,600 lichens that grow in my region. Neither are the worms that live on the bottom of the ocean, sustaining themselves using 5 different chemosynthetic bacterial symbionts. Neither are Emerald Elysia nudibranchs. Neither are you; by cell count, you're 90% beneficial bacteria and 10% human. In your cells there are mitochondria with their own DNA left over from when they were their own creature.

In dry deserts in the Southwestern USA where no plant life should be able to live, there are trees that flourish without rain. How?

Because they are in a mutualistic partnership with fungi that are linked to their roots, and those fungi attach themselves to rocks far beneath the surface of the ground, and the fungi digest the rocks and extract water for their tree companions.

Your ancestors weren't stupid. Indigenous people today, for the most part, don't separate the "spiritual" and "physical" worlds in this clearly defined Cartesian way (and aren't stupid). Everything is connected. Everything is full of life and change. It's true. It both makes sense and is useful to see the world as animate and full of spirit.

And ultimately it's much more helpful to ask "How and why did this belief system come to be?" instead of dismissing what appears to be "pre-scientific" beliefs as stupid or fundamentally wrong.

And ultimately it's much more helpful to ask "How and why did this belief system come to be?" instead of dismissing what appears to be "pre-scientific" beliefs as stupid or fundamentally wrong.

I love studying such beliefs; I almost majored in anthropology. However, advocacy for study is not advocacy for adoption of said beliefs. Most historic belief systems are fundamentally wrong, though this is more a matter of ignorance and material context than stupidity.

It both makes sense and is useful to see the world as animate and full of spirit.

This is a worse model than a world dominated by specific natural organisms and phenomena. It is less useful; the lifecycle of various lichens is not divine, it is not spiritual and it is connected to a greater whole only through discrete phenomena and this greater whole is not some all-encompassing biosphere but specific discrete regions of bio-activity (some of which may be quite broad).

Injecting animism, that is to say, a form of religiosity or spirituality into the study of the natural world does not improve any model and no amount of discrete natural facts will change this until you distill the soul from a tree and measure it.

phaeton-flier

Quick Question: Do the various microbiomes of soil get in any complex way affected by prayer and sacrifice, or will chopping down a tree be the most important part of that interaction? Because if the prayer and sacrifice don't do anything, then that's a stark insult to animism.