Azula told Ursa about Azulon's hit on Zuko, giving Ursa the means to save Zuko's life. Azula gave Zuko's prince life back to him. Azula warned Zuko to be more careful when speaking with Iroh privately. Azula gets all somber and insecure over her view of herself as a monster. Azula was truly hurt and confused over Mai and Ty Lee's defection, in contrast with Ozai, who just laughs it off and zaps the traitor out of existence. Azula did not punish Mai for disobeying her orders back in the drill. Azula desires no power for herself, just to do what she was raised to believe was right. Other villains, more heinous than Azula, reformed for less.
Friendly reminder that, back while the show was airing, there was literally an official book published which literally said "Zuko tracked and tried to kill Azula because he saw her as an obstacle between him and what he wanted."
And what's characteristic is that both Iroh and Ursa only supported this line. Seriously, the more I think about what place Azula occupied in this family, the more I see her and not Zuko as the ugly duckling. Damn Zuko had both a mother figure - Ursa and a father figure - Iroh in his life. And what did Azula have? "Sir, yes, sir" Ozai?
especially funny considering zuko whines about azula getting "everything handed to her" or whatever it is he says.............meanwhile in their literal introductions we see:
zuko crying and bitching about having to practice firebending fundamentals under the generous encouragement of his friendly mentor uncle and saying he shouldn't have to do any practice & he should just get to do cool flips whenever he wants bc he's already awesome by birth
azula practicing the fundamentals without complaint & in fact dismissing the reassurance/compliments of the only 2 people who care about her bc she has impossibly high standards for herself & she doesn't think she's good enough to justify those compliments
When they performed in front of their grandfather, what did they get respectively?
Azula, having perfectly shown all prodigious skills which was combination of her talents and hard work: being displayed like an object for Ozai to win over his father, Ursa could not care to give a shit.
Zuko, who made a fool of himself in front of everyone: Ursa rushed over and told him omg my baby boy you did so great I love watching you. Bear in mind that she did it in front of Ozai and Azulon when supposedly Zuko’s foolish action just made the situation quite precarious, yeah another proof of the blatant comic recton lmao.
This scene has always been what struck me the most from Zuko Alone and oh let me tell you as a Chinese female there is so much to resonate.
Azula breaks out of prison and everyone is scrambling to find her, witness reports see her terrorising seemingly random shopkeepers, florists, dress makers, a beautician. Sokka, being the groups only Thinker goes to see if any significant dates were coming up instead of blindly searching every short girl in every town she could be in. He finds that the day of her father's execution was exactly one year before the next day, and finds her sitting next to her father's tomb in the Hall of the Dead in the Royal Palace the morning of his anniversary, right under Zuko's nose, whispering to her father so the patrolling guard doesn't find her.
He can't just leave her there, obviously, but he doesn't want to interrupt and destroy what might be the time she ever gets to talk to him, so he just waits by the entrance, shooing away anyone who might try to enter, telling them about massive rat-hogs that are infesting the catacombs.
I still can't believe that Ursa wrote Ozai a letter saying Zuko wasn't actually his son.
Ursa wrote the abusive genocidal monarchist eugenicist a letter that one of his heirs was illegitimate, which will clearly piss him off and make him hate Zuko even more. Just to check to see if Ozai would read it.
The truth of the statement is entirely irrelevant honestly, it's such a cruel setup. She willingly put Zuko in much more danger and put a bigger target on his back just to get a rise out of Ozai, out of... short-sighted pettiness? As though the life of the only child she cared about was a bargaining chip?
It’s such an irrationally stupid thing to do that it’s baffling how anyone could defend this and cry victim blaming. Stupid is as stupid does. Just even a whiff of adultery could’ve led for her, her children (both Zuko and Azula), Ikem and maybe her whole village to be put to the sword.
“Oh wow, I’m Ursa and really don’t like being in this arranged marriage and away from my family. It’s very isolating and stressful, due in no small part to the fact that my husband is absolutely insane and everyone knows it. Like this mfer isn’t even shy about the fact he hates me, he hates our son, he hates his brother and he hates his father.
You know what would really be a fun way to shake things up? If I faked a letter to my boring ass childhood sweetheart that my son who everyone already thinks isn’t the strongest is actually his illegitimate child! Oh no, don’t worry, Ikem will never get the letter, I’m going to make sure that my CLEARLY UNSTABLE AND VOLATILE HUSBAND WHO BREATHES LIGHTNING will find it instead!
That’ll sure teach him for reading my letters! There’s no way this can end poorly, right?”
It could be interesting if there was any desire in the comics or novels or other materials to portray Ursa as heavily flawed. As a woman who was so pushed to the brink that she made an irrational, dangerous, and selfish choice. One that could’ve cost Zuko and Ursa, and perhaps even Azula, their lives.
But no. The narrative framing wants us to see Ursa as an innocent victim swept up by the tide. She has no agency and so therefore she cannot be blamed.
It’s ridiculous and such a far cry from the woman who was willing to assassinate a Fire Lord to protect her child.
But hey! Anything to not empathize with Azula, right? Even baby Azula.
The fandom hates Azula more for saving Zuko’s life in a mean way than they criticize Ursa for risking Zuko’s life in a weepy passive aggressive way.
do you azula stans have any other hobbies except shitting on zuko 24/7 and pretending your fave is some poor innocent victim who did nothing
Yea, someone talked about liking to knit once? So we killed them for not being focused enough on propagandising. We run a pretty tight ship around here so there's no time for that kind of stuff.
My issue with Zuko is…well, part of it IS the character. But a lot of it has to do with the writing, ESPECIALLY in the comics.
We can all agree that Book 3 was rushed and has its problems. Like it or not, Zuko’s redemption arc was one of the casualties. He never really had time to unlearn much of the stuff he had been indoctrinated with and was still envious of Azula right up until the end (which is a character flaw that Ozai exploited). As he stands right now, I’d consider his redemption arc half finished. He’s working with the heroes now, but he hasn’t exactly fully dealt with his issues by the end of the show. It was only exacerbated in the comics since the writers felt the half finished redemption arc was good enough.
I’m sorry, but I never got around to seeing Zuko fully redeeming himself. He’s getting there, but he’s not there yet. That’s my issue.
This sort of goes into my second and arguably bigger reason a lot of us Azula fans are so hard on him: he’s been lionized by the fandom and the writers. He’s given traits such as knowing more about the Air Nomads than Aang or being right in saying that Azula is lazy when that isn’t the case. We see it in the comics where basically everyone else aside from him is butchered. We see it in the fandom where there’s a tendency to prop him up while tearing Aang, Azula, and Mai down. All the while, they ignore all of his flaws and pretend he was perfect from day one.
Which is a full misunderstanding of a character that’s supposed to go on a redemption arc. And like it or not, his treatment of Azula is directly tied in with that redemption arc. Think about it. His willingness to one up her or “reclaim” his birthright from her drove a lot of his villainous actions. And he wasn’t immune to it in the Last Agni Kai where he taunts her into shooting lightning at him. Him failing to recognize that she was a victim like he was is a major character flaw that actively cripples his redemption. Like, how is he supposed to be a benevolent Fire Lord when he doesn’t even understand how they were indoctrinated? How is he supposed to lead them to a new future without realizing that his own sister was screwed up like he was? That’s the equivalent of Luke giving into his hatred and striking down Vader. It’s not exactly a positive character arc when the character in question can’t move past their own flaws.
Zuko forgiving Azula means that he gets that much closer to becoming a better person and makes his arc that much more believable. Yet he never does and actively abused her in the comics. THAT’s why we’re so hard on him. You can’t say Zuko redeemed himself when he’s still acting on a grudge that brings out the worst in him.
Does that mean we go too far sometimes? Yes. Some of us do. But if you’re going to come at us with stuff like that, then we’re going to bring up stuff you did. And we certainly don’t make 1 hour long YouTube videos about how much Zuko is a sociopath.
#that's the problem#yes azula wasn't innocent#but it doesn't erase that zuko was cruel and a very dangerous and problematic person#the only thing was he wasn't as competent when trying to capture aang#people romanticized him possible due to his sad backstory#yet ignore that a sad backstory doesn't excuse his actions/ behavior#compared to how most treat azula to the point it reaks of ableism and sexism and just any dehumanized language#being the issue here#atla fandom criticism#issues with zuko's redemption arc
do you azula stans have any other hobbies except shitting on zuko 24/7 and pretending your fave is some poor innocent victim who did nothing
Yea, someone talked about liking to knit once? So we killed them for not being focused enough on propagandising. We run a pretty tight ship around here so there's no time for that kind of stuff.
My issue with Zuko is…well, part of it IS the character. But a lot of it has to do with the writing, ESPECIALLY in the comics.
We can all agree that Book 3 was rushed and has its problems. Like it or not, Zuko’s redemption arc was one of the casualties. He never really had time to unlearn much of the stuff he had been indoctrinated with and was still envious of Azula right up until the end (which is a character flaw that Ozai exploited). As he stands right now, I’d consider his redemption arc half finished. He’s working with the heroes now, but he hasn’t exactly fully dealt with his issues by the end of the show. It was only exacerbated in the comics since the writers felt the half finished redemption arc was good enough.
I’m sorry, but I never got around to seeing Zuko fully redeeming himself. He’s getting there, but he’s not there yet. That’s my issue.
This sort of goes into my second and arguably bigger reason a lot of us Azula fans are so hard on him: he’s been lionized by the fandom and the writers. He’s given traits such as knowing more about the Air Nomads than Aang or being right in saying that Azula is lazy when that isn’t the case. We see it in the comics where basically everyone else aside from him is butchered. We see it in the fandom where there’s a tendency to prop him up while tearing Aang, Azula, and Mai down. All the while, they ignore all of his flaws and pretend he was perfect from day one.
Which is a full misunderstanding of a character that’s supposed to go on a redemption arc. And like it or not, his treatment of Azula is directly tied in with that redemption arc. Think about it. His willingness to one up her or “reclaim” his birthright from her drove a lot of his villainous actions. And he wasn’t immune to it in the Last Agni Kai where he taunts her into shooting lightning at him. Him failing to recognize that she was a victim like he was is a major character flaw that actively cripples his redemption. Like, how is he supposed to be a benevolent Fire Lord when he doesn’t even understand how they were indoctrinated? How is he supposed to lead them to a new future without realizing that his own sister was screwed up like he was? That’s the equivalent of Luke giving into his hatred and striking down Vader. It’s not exactly a positive character arc when the character in question can’t move past their own flaws.
Zuko forgiving Azula means that he gets that much closer to becoming a better person and makes his arc that much more believable. Yet he never does and actively abused her in the comics. THAT’s why we’re so hard on him. You can’t say Zuko redeemed himself when he’s still acting on a grudge that brings out the worst in him.
Does that mean we go too far sometimes? Yes. Some of us do. But if you’re going to come at us with stuff like that, then we’re going to bring up stuff you did. And we certainly don’t make 1 hour long YouTube videos about how much Zuko is a sociopath.
And we certainly don’t make another twenty minute video in a desperate attempt to justify hatred towards Azula and to relish in her suffering, talking about how “Azula’s ending is not only a condemnation of her sins but **more importantly** elevates Zuko’s character development”, going on and on about how people should not sympathize with Azula cuz she is just a narrative tool while babying and projecting onto Zuko, saying self-contradictory nonsense such as “once a character serves their narrative purpose, it makes no difference whether the character is locked up in a prison cell for the rest of the life, or lives happily ever after”. Like come on you honestly have such a strong feeling towards this character who you said 5 minutes ago was a mere narrative tool whom the audience should not perceive as a 14-year-old child nor sympathise. Your opinion is strong enough that it seems to me you will scratch your scalp hard if she doesn’t end up “locked up in a prison cell for the rest of her life” LMAO.
And we certainly don’t have to make a video to deliberately distort what a child-friendly comic book is about, saying “I like Azula in the Spirit Temple cuz it shows Azula is utterly irredeemable as she turned down the opportunity herself”🤣
Honestly if you wanna project onto or baby Zuko do whatever you want like, feel free to go all the way imagining you receiving all the support and love and opportunities, rising to the top and besting the b*tch who dared to be better than you all you like (which is unfortunately not what Zuko’s character is essentially about , unfortunately, but rather a lot of people’s self-insert version of him), it’s non of my business. I couldn’t care less about him or his fans, I only care about the character I like. What honestly baffles me is how much people who like other certain character and don’t like Azula at all have to talk about Azula all the time, conjuring up non-existent, self-conflicting nonsense and broken logic to justify their hatred towards Azula, and they have to lecture the whole fandom about how you should perceive Azula the character, like honey you don’t need to be this insecure x
Insane to me that people take a scene of ZUKO throwing shit at a turtle-duck and their only take away is that Azula is an animal abuser like come on, please, just a CRUMB of literacy
My first thought when I saw that scene was ''Azula must be bad at feeding turtleducks and Zuko was so overexcited about the fact that he was better than her at something that he didn't think about the consequences of replicating her humiliation."
I don't think I had a clearly articulated thought process at the time, but my reasoning boils down to the fact that Zuko's behavior resembles mockery more than moral condemnation. People do not usually express "this person is cruel" by replicating their actions. When you think something is wrong and immoral you do not usually want to behave that way yourself. However, it is very normal to mimic someone's behavior in an exaggerated manner when you think what they did was silly or stupid.
By calling out "Hey mom, do you want to see how Azula feeds turtleducks?" Zuko was signalling that he was starting a performance and inviting Ursa in on a joke at Azula's expense. It is a joke because he thinks that how Azula feeds turtleducks is incorrect in some way and that he and Ursa, who feed turtleducks correctly, should now laugh at her failure. This is the behavior modeled to him in a family largely made up of bullies. The childish logic at play here is "Azula always treats me like this when I fail at bending, so why shouldn't I make fun of her when she fails at feeding turtleducks?"
At the same time, his willingness to replicate the event suggests that he considered it more entertaining than immoral. Once Zuko hits the turtleduck, he seems genuinely surprised to realize he had hurt it. He is shocked and confused when it attacked him, demanding to know why it would do that. This is important because it shows that Zuko didn't understand that his actions would cause the turtleduck to lash out in distress, which suggests that he didn't consider Azula's actions to be harmful either. His only take away was how funny it was too see Azula mess up at something as simple as throwing bread in a pond.
Zuko's specific confusion at the turtleduck's biting him is also telling because it suggests that the last turtleduck hadn't attacked Azula. We can't say why this is for sure. Maybe she hit the mum rather than the baby and it didn't feel the need to go on the defense, or maybe she didn't hit the turtleduck at all and just made a huge splash when she threw the bread too hard. Perhaps she was told to "throw the bread into the water" and she threw it like she was taught in combat training, making a commotion but not actually hitting the turtleduck. Whatever she might have done, the fact that she wasn't attacked suggests that her actions only disgruntled the turtleducks rather than make them feel threatened the way that Zuko did.
And if Azula hadn't made the turtleducks feel threatened, it is probably because she wasn't trying to (intimidation is one thing we know she is good at). She was probably trying to feed turtleducks as people normally do and messed it up in someway that Zuko found funny. In trying to replicate her mistake for the sake of humor, Zuko chose to intentionally aim at the turtleduck itself without thinking of what the consequences of that would be.
This is mockery. He isn't judging Azula on the grounds that her actions were wrong, he is making fun of her because he thinks what she did was embarrassing. The sentiment he is trying to share with Ursa is "Azula cannot feed turtleducks normally, how do you mess up something so simple? It looks ridiculous!" His inability to predict the events that followed (hurting the turtleducks, being attacked back) suggests that those things hadn't happened the first time.
I do not think that either child was trying to hurt any of the animals. However, after years of constantly falling behind his little sister and having her make fun of him for it, it makes total sense to me that Zuko would jump at the chance to make fun of Azula for something that she is bad it without thinking about what he was doing.
I don't think people believe Zuko was trying to condemn her, it's a lot sillier than that. They say Azula is bad because they make her responsible for both her own actions and Zuko's. They know Zuko just thought it was funny, but they then blame her for being a bad influence on the older sibling. Basically they believe Azula at 8 is completely responsible for her own actions and any influence she received doesn't matter, but if Zuko at 10 does something bad then he's just misguided and it doesn't reflect on his person and it's actually Azula's fault.
It's not new information that the ATLA comics mischaracterised everyone. This is about Azula. You know that "no she's crazy and she needs to go down" line. It's like the writers took it and ran with it for Azula's character in the search.
She had a stress induced psychotic episode in the finale. This led to her bending being sloppy and for her to be much physically weaker, getting spent quickly in her Agni Kai with Zuko. She kept her sharp mind and quick thinking as she uses the environment (Katara) to her advantage in order to beat Zuko. She can somehow use lightning despite it being stated that one needs peace of mind or whatever but bending philosophy is not consistent anyways.
The Search has her put in an insane asylum in order to extend her psychosis. In the finale, her delusions were focused on betrayal because her entire philosophy crunbled and everyone she loved was against her anyways. Ursa was there because she was the first person to have ever betrayed her. In the comics, it's suddenly so that Ursa is the sole focus of her delusions and she's the one who turned everyone against her.
And ya know, interesting idea. Ursa emulates everything Azula was trying to be the opposite of. So her becoming the main symbol of her persecutory delusions makes some sense. Too bad the writers ain't gonna do shit with that.
Remember how Azula still had her tact? Well here, she makes impulsive decisions so the plot can move forward. You know who was still impulsive by the end? Zuko. He didn't learn jack when he burnt Toph. Take the finale. He goads Azula into using her most deadly attack. He doesn't take into account his surroundings (Katara) and so loses epicly when he had the advantage. It's a common problem that redemption arc means cool character become boring. So the writers kept Zuko's arrogance, short temper and impulsivity so he wouldn't be too different. But nooooooo, Azula bad, Zuko good.
Remember how Azula was weaker in the finale because her mind wasn't all there? Well despite being restrained frequently for the past...months? Year? She somehow has tons of physical prowess and raw bending power. Because Zuko is apparently right, Azula has never worked a day in her life for anything and gets handed everything on a silver platter.
It reminds me of the egregiously bad Cell Saga in Dragon Ball Z. Everyone gets hit with the stupid stick so the plot happens but especially Vegeta. He was shown as quite the schemer in the previous arc but not here. Toriyama admitted he was useful to get the plot going. Then Cell somehow regenerates from a single drop of semen he ejaculated on the ground while the Z fighters weren't looking. This somehow makes him come back at over 100% power too so he looks like a threat.
The Search is just the start of Azula's horrific comic writing. Her entire character being centred on her psychotic break starts here. And oh boy, oh boy, it's awful.
Preach. The writers making Azula's character being about her mental state post canon is so bad, especially with the way how they wrote it. Like, she had one mental breakdown. Which seemed to be caused by stress and other factors. That doesn't automatically mean "omg she's crazy lock her away forever and toss out the key!" If that were the case, then Aang having hallucinations due to lack of sleep and Zuko having a metamorphosis fever dream, or whatever the fuck you want to call it, just because he freed Appa, should have been treated the exact same way, and yet it wasn't. It's so stupid.
Also "Then Cell somehow regenerates from a single drop of semen he ejaculated on the ground while the Z fighters weren't looking."
"Not everyone can be saved" when it is the indoctrinated 14-year-old girl,
Yeah, precisely.
"Not everyone can be saved" doesn't mean someone doesn't/shouldn't get a chance. It means they may not even be willing to take that chance in the first place.
I dont like how everyone just glosses over irohs war crimes either, but at least we know he was willing to repent. Mind you, zuko was always bad asf and still managed to change. However, it was still a struggle for him in the beginning. From a narrative sense, I just think it'd be more emotionally impactful to see a reflection of iroh and ozai in azula and zuko. The tragedy of two siblings dragged through the same shit circumstances but one was able to rise above despite all that, and one wasn't.
Also, azula stans love to bring up her age as if she hasn't been showing psychopathic tendencies since age four. Sometimes kids are just shitty people, that happens.
Tell me you don’t view Azula as her character on her own but as a narrative accessory to elevate Zuko’s character, and “if Azula got redemption arc Zuko’s would be less special🥺” without saying them explicitly. So some character’s glory has to be built on the other character’s pain and misery, the more miserable the more desperate the latter is, the more glorified the former is? Got you, so you shut down a 14-year-old’s future while giving a pass to a man who was at least 50 who changed his course cuz he suffered a personal loss in the invasion he waged, all these so that your precious the best of all time redemption arc is more glorified. Let’s all forget about how Azula was been born the prodigy, had no adult to actually make her feel she can be loved unconditionally so that she could only crave for her father’s appreciation, and that her chance of reflecting on her course came at the end of the show.
And psychopathic tendencies at the age of 4 LMAO please try harder hiding your predisposition and bias towards azula the next time. Burning a wooden toy by accident when your firebending ability got unlocked the first time didn’t sound “psychopathic” (whatever this ableist word meant by you) to me. All her later behaviors do not look out of the line of a spoiled mean-spirited kid who had been picked and groomed by her father and influenced by the fire nation values oh and mind you she is also the princess worshipped by everyone.
Lmfao, where exactly does that post suggest anything about elevating zukos character? The whole point is one sibling gets redeemed and one sibling doesn't, zuko is already redeemed, unfortunately for you, so I guess that leaves azula (who yes has always been messed up, just read the fire academy comic) getting stuck with being the bad guy. Tough shit.
Sorry, we can't go back in time and rewrite the entire show so that azula stans can feel better 😂 you cant talk about bias when you immediately jump on to hate every character connected to azula because "they make her look bad" instead of just accepting that shes a bad person and theyre not.
… read the original post mate, “not everyone can be saved”, “from a narrative sense, I think it is more impactful… through the same circumstances and one was able do that despite all these, and one did not” - which are all clearly saying that for the OP Azula’s narrative purpose is to stay the way the show finishes at so that “not everyone can be saved” >> “the one saved is the special case and you can see the contrast there”.
Since when I jumped on character “who makes azula look bad”. Meanwhile there is a certain fraction in the fandom who believes Azula should stay the way she was at the end of the show in misery and pain devoid of hope for the rest of her life despite the comics clearly implying otherwise, perhaps out of the intention that Azula makes some other character look bad/less special?
But I mean your take from the ashes of the academy, one about indoctrination and societal influence is that “azula who has always been messed up”…
Well, I have to say the original post reminds me of Hello Future Me, a youtuber who diagnosed Azula with a bunch of mental problems using DSM-5 manual, even though he had no degree in psychology🤣. Apart from this absurd video, he also uploaded another one last year titled "Unnecessary Redemption Arcs and the Rise of Character Laundering". For those who dislike Azula, his viewpoint should be quite representative.
I'm not coming here to spread hatred, but still, it would be nice for everyone to hear his perspective:
…I know this is going to be hurt, but characters are not people, they are tools, they are narrative representations of people, we can use them to say other things. Characters can exist as foils to others as symbolic representations of other ideas, their failures as morality tales, their actions and fates as important pieces of a greatest story being told. That can be the point they serve. Unlike us they don't exist in isolation free of overarching narrative following the bits and bobs of free will. They are not individuals but pieces of tapestry carefully woven together by the author to explore something else.
Azula's story isn't about a 14-year-old girl defeated by her brother Zuko for the throne, that's the plot. Azula is Zuko's character foil where she is ruthless and practical, Zuko is empathetic and emotional; where Azula is a prodiay, Zuko has to work painstakingly hard to achieve a fraction of her power and her flaws highlight Zuko's new strengths he discovers throughout the series, and vice versa Azula's fall is a reflection of how different parenting styles can affect a child. Ozai's
affection was something exchanged for being useful, something Azula will go on to do to her friends, whereas Iroh's affection came as something freely given with patience for imperfection and failure, traits which Zuko adopts. And crucially where Azula's ultimate fall comes from her cruelty and pride and rejection of friends and allies, it is Zuko's humility and kindness and friendship that ultimately wins the day. Him sacrificing his life for Katara, Katara bring Azula down and then her healing him. Azula ending up alone imprisoned isn't something happening to a real person, it is a deliberate narrative choice by the author to say something about how people like this isolate themselves and end up alone.
As far as I know, Atla is not a fable. The main purpose of its creation was not to preach. Contrast is a common technique in literary works, but Azula and Zuko is not a case of contrast. To merely interpret Azura as the foil of Zuko is a gross distortion. I have never seen a perfect work where the redemption of a good character necessarily comes at the expense of another character's irredeemability, or a good person must use a bad person to back up their noble qualities and highlight their good traits. This would only make me feel like the character portrayal is shallow and flat. If Azula must fall into the quagmire and never be able to rise again to highlight Zuko's glory, then his redemption arc might not be so powerful.
We're not here to play a zero-sum game, are we? I'm not quite interested in discussing the issue of double standards, but unfortunately, I often come across it in the atla fandom. Just getting a bit annoyed.
"Not everyone can be saved" when it is the indoctrinated 14-year-old girl,
Yeah, precisely.
"Not everyone can be saved" doesn't mean someone doesn't/shouldn't get a chance. It means they may not even be willing to take that chance in the first place.
I dont like how everyone just glosses over irohs war crimes either, but at least we know he was willing to repent. Mind you, zuko was always bad asf and still managed to change. However, it was still a struggle for him in the beginning. From a narrative sense, I just think it'd be more emotionally impactful to see a reflection of iroh and ozai in azula and zuko. The tragedy of two siblings dragged through the same shit circumstances but one was able to rise above despite all that, and one wasn't.
Also, azula stans love to bring up her age as if she hasn't been showing psychopathic tendencies since age four. Sometimes kids are just shitty people, that happens.
Tell me you don’t view Azula as her character on her own but as a narrative accessory to elevate Zuko’s character, and “if Azula got redemption arc Zuko’s would be less special🥺” without saying them explicitly. So some character’s glory has to be built on the other character’s pain and misery, the more miserable the more desperate the latter is, the more glorified the former is? Got you, so you shut down a 14-year-old’s future while giving a pass to a man who was at least 50 who changed his course cuz he suffered a personal loss in the invasion he waged, all these so that your precious the best of all time redemption arc is more glorified. Let’s all forget about how Azula was been born the prodigy, had no adult to actually make her feel she can be loved unconditionally so that she could only crave for her father’s appreciation, and that her chance of reflecting on her course came at the end of the show.
And psychopathic tendencies at the age of 4 LMAO please try harder hiding your predisposition and bias towards azula the next time. Burning a wooden toy by accident when your firebending ability got unlocked the first time didn’t sound “psychopathic” (whatever this ableist word meant by you) to me. All her later behaviors do not look out of the line of a spoiled mean-spirited kid who had been picked and groomed by her father and influenced by the fire nation values oh and mind you she is also the princess worshipped by everyone.
Lmfao, where exactly does that post suggest anything about elevating zukos character? The whole point is one sibling gets redeemed and one sibling doesn't, zuko is already redeemed, unfortunately for you, so I guess that leaves azula (who yes has always been messed up, just read the fire academy comic) getting stuck with being the bad guy. Tough shit.
Sorry, we can't go back in time and rewrite the entire show so that azula stans can feel better 😂 you cant talk about bias when you immediately jump on to hate every character connected to azula because "they make her look bad" instead of just accepting that shes a bad person and theyre not.
… read the original post mate, “not everyone can be saved”, “from a narrative sense, I think it is more impactful… through the same circumstances and one was able do that despite all these, and one did not” - which are all clearly saying that for the OP Azula’s narrative purpose is to stay the way the show finishes at so that “not everyone can be saved” >> “the one saved is the special case and you can see the contrast there”.
Since when I jumped on character “who makes azula look bad”. Meanwhile there is a certain fraction in the fandom who believes Azula should stay the way she was at the end of the show in misery and pain devoid of hope for the rest of her life despite the comics clearly implying otherwise, perhaps out of the intention that Azula makes some other character look bad/less special?
But I mean your take from the ashes of the academy, one about indoctrination and societal influence is that “azula who has always been messed up”…
I wanted to add on to this analysis of Zuko "feeding" the turtle-ducks because I think that Ursa's behavior in this scene is just as interesting as Zuko's. This scene is the first time that we ever meet Ursa. This sweet scene between mother and son is our baseline for understanding for what she is like as a person and I think it provides essential context for what we see of her later on.
Almost as soon as the scene begins, Zuko decides to make fun of his sister by mimicking her failure to feed turtle-ducks correctly. As part of the "joke" Zuko decides to physically throw food at a baby animal. Ursa is, unsurprisingly, disturbed by this. However, I think her response is outstanding.
Ursa begins by immediately asking "Zuko, why would you do that?" By using Zuko's name, she addresses him directly and invites him to respond. Although she does not demand a verbal answer, phrasing her admonishment as a question encourages Zuko to reflect on his behavior and why it has upset his mother. The pause in the conversation gives him a chance to explain himself if he wants to.
In choosing to ask why Zuko would do such a thing, Ursa also demonstrates that she understands that he must have had a reason even if she can't immediately comprehend it. Even if he doesn't respond verbally, she still expects there to be an answer that can be understood and therefore addressed. This is something that Zuko did and something that he can stop doing.
When the turtle-duck attacked him, Ursa quickly pulled it away from him without hesitation. She is disappointed, but she doesn't want him to get hurt. Even when Zuko doubles down on his behavior, fails to apologize, and begins insulting the turtle-duck for doing the same thing to him that he had just done to it, Ursa remains gentle. She speaks to Zuko softly and slowly lowers herself to sit beside him, so that she isn't looming over him or shouting in such a way that might be intimidating to child raised in an abusive environment.
When Zuko asks why the turtle-duck attacked him, Ursa's response is incredible. "Oh Zuko, that's what moms are like. If you mess with their babies [chomp] they're gonna bite you back!"
Here, Ursa repeats his name more softly than she had used it before, signalling that she is no longer upset. This helps relieve the likely anxiety Zuko is feeling about being in trouble after years of living with Ozai. Then, rather than simply admonishing Zuko, Ursa explains the cause and effect of his behavior; he messed with the turtle-ducks, so the turtle-duck bit him. In this moment, she isn't just telling him that his actions were wrong, but teaching to think about the consequences of them.
Ursa also compares the turtle-ducks he had been terrorizing to herself, someone who Zuko already loves and cares about. This allows Zuko a chance to view the turtle-duck in a new light. Rather than a group dumb animals who act without reason, it is a mother and her babies who he has just hurt. The compassion and sympathy he naturally feels for his mom is transferred to the animals.
But even more brilliantly, is the way that Ursa compares herself to the turtle-ducks. Not only does she explain that the turtle-duck had been protecting its babies, she tells Zuko plainly she would act in exactly the same way if he was hurt, because she is his mom. That is what moms are like. Even while expressing disapproval and explaining why his actions were harmful, Ursa continues to affirm that Zuko is safe with her. She will protect him. She will fight for him. She will never hurt him.
All of this is done as she begins playfully mimicking a turtle-duck coming to bite him once again. This hammers her point home while also cheering Zuko up. They both end the interaction laughing. Holding each on to each other in a warm hug that clearly shows their shared love and affection.
In a single interaction, she simultaneously acknowledges his wrong doing and encourages empathy for the turtle-ducks, all the while reaffirming her unconditional love for him.
In this scene, Ursa clearly demonstrates that she is capable of being an outstanding mother. Kind, empathic, patient. She is incredibly emotionally intelligent in a way that allows her to make her son feel safe, even as she admonishes him for his bad behavior and guides him into becoming more compassionate. The bond between Ursa and Zuko does not exist because he is incapable of cruelty, but because she is willing to sit by his side and care for him even when does terribly cruel things.
This is unfortunately never how we see Ursa treat Azula.
If we were to apply this strategy of dealing with Zuko’s cruel behavior to Azula’s callousness later in the episode, then she would have started by saying “Azula, why would you say such a thing?” She would likely approach Azula slowly and search for a way to help Azula understand death without scaring her about the reality of it. Perhaps she might have asked the same question Zuko did (having clearly learned from Ursa herself earlier the same day), before reaffirming to her daughter that no one in the family is going to die because they all look out for each other (even if they annoy each other). If she is really paying attention, she might even promise to talk to Iroh about his future gifts. They could both laugh together about how silly he is.
This is not what we see Ursa do.
Instead, her response to Azula's callous words is consistently cold and blunt. “Azula! We do not speak that way. It would be awful if uncle Iroh didn’t return.”
Here, the use of Azula’s name does not invite a response. Ursa’s tone is far sharper than it had been with Zuko and what follows isn't a question, but a command. This is Ursa telling Azula what she must do, rather than inviting an explanation of what she is actually thinking. There is no pause in the conversation where Azula is able to consider why what she had said might have caused anyone distress, and Ursa never encourages her to do so.
By failing to ask Azula why she is saying these things, Ursa demonstrates that she has no interest in understanding the cause of her daughter’s attitude. She never acknowledges Azula’s thoughts or feelings. Nor does she expect her to have a reason for her behavior. While Zuko is assumed to have some kind of motivation to explain his actions, Azula is automatically condemned as malicious without a second thought.
This is a particularly strange assumption, considering that Zuko’s attack on the turtle-duck didn’t have an inciting incident to justify his cruelty. Meanwhile, Azula’s frustration at Iroh is a clear result of his dismissive and misogynistic “gift.” If Ursa recognized the source of Azula’s frustration at all, she still didn’t acknowledge it or offer any alternative way for her daughter to deal with those difficult feelings. Zuko’s unprompted physical aggression towards an innocent animal is given more benefit of the doubt than Azula’s morbid (but ultimately harmless) question about the line of succession.
An indeterminate time later, Ursa arrives to inform the children that their father has requested an audience with Fire Lord Azulon. Azula once again makes a callous comment about the possibility of a relative (this time her grandfather) dying. In response, Ursa snaps.
“Young lady! Not another word!”
Here, Ursa doesn’t even use Azula’s name. Instead, she talks down to her, reducing her to her age and gender. The choice to refer to Azula in such a way strips away any familiarity between two of them, drawing dividing lines between mother and daughter. Ursa frames herself as an absolute authority by virtue of her age. She does this in order to, once again, command Azula rather than explain what she did wrong or communicate with her.
(It is also notable that, due to the previous scene, we know that Azula's gender and the expectation that she become the "young lady" Ursa is referencing to is a sore spot for Azula. This might be because Ursa does not understand this part of her daughter, or it might be because she is disturbed by Azula's disinterest in feminine things and is hoping to pressure her back into a more submissive role by reminding Azula of her place.)
In this moment, Ursa doesn’t just fail to reach out to Azula in the same way she had reached out to Zuko, but ends up intimidating her. With a furious expression, Ursa looms over Azula, large and imposing as she blocks the room’s only exit. Every word is sharp and cold, brokering no room for self defense. In an instant, Azula transforms. In five words, her carefree and relaxed demeanor disappears as she flees the room as quickly as possible. Her face is blank, all signs of emotion carefully hidden as she runs away from her own mother.
Later the same day, we see Ursa grab Azula by the arm and physically drag her from the room before either child has a chance to explain what they were fighting about.
(While not inherently abusive in itself, she is still interacting with two children that have lived in an abusive environment their entire lives. Whatever Ursa's intentions might be, they still do not change how the children will interpret her anger.)
For now, as Azula leaves, she overhears her mother ask “what is wrong with that child?”
This is the first question we see Ursa ask of Azula, but it isn’t one that she is supposed to have an answer to. Ursa isn’t speaking to Azula, she is speaking about her. Literally behind her back. Instead of asking “why?” she asks “what?” as if there are no real thoughts or feelings behind Azula’s attitude that Ursa, as her mother, could be trying to understand.
Here, Ursa doesn’t just describe Azula as doing things that are wrong. She says that there is something wrong with her. Not her attitude. Not her behaviour. Not her father’s bad influence. There is something wrong with her.
Zuko’s misbehavior is understood by Ursa as actions that he has taken but that are, ultimately, separate from his person hood. If Zuko does something bad, he must have a reason. Azula's misbehavior is attributed to a fundamental part of her being. Ursa isn’t looking for answers about why Azula says these callous things, because she doesn’t expect Azula to need a reason. She just is.
The fandom often attributes Azula’s bad behavior to Ozai’s influence and her choice to “ignore” Ursa’s lessons. But the truth is that, unlike with Zuko, Ursa never actually tried to encourage Azula to have empathy for others or to think about the consequences of her attitude.
Ursa tells, rather than teaches, Azula what to do. She expects her to be obedient and becomes angry when isn’t, but never actually takes the time to explain why her actions are wrong. The endless patience and sympathy she gives Zuko is simply never granted to Azula. Ursa never reaffirms to her daughter that, no matter how cross she might be, she will still love and protect her because that is what moms do. Only her son receives that kind of unconditional love.
This isn’t because Zuko never did anything wrong as a child. We only understand how deeply loving and supportive Ursa was to him through the context of him throwing things at innocent animals. It isn’t because Ursa lacks the emotional intelligence to balance admonishment with affection. She does this effortlessly for her son… just not her daughter. Even Ozai isn’t standing in her way. He isn’t present for any of these scenes and Ursa is completely free to interact with Azula however she wants.
In the end, it was nothing but Ursa's choices that caused her to treat Azula more harshly than she ever treated Zuko. We don't know, for certain, why this is but we have seen the consequences clearly. Zuko felt loved by his mother, Azula didn't. This isn't because Zuko was simply idealizing his mother too much to see her flaws or because Azula imagined a distance between them that wasn't there. There is a real difference in how Ursa treated her children that cannot simply be explained by "Zuko is pure of heart" and "Azula is a rotten monster."
Neither sibling is wrong or right about their upbringing. There is no fight over Ursa's true nature to be won. Just two very different relationships with the same complex woman.
"Not everyone can be saved" when it is the indoctrinated 14-year-old girl,
Yeah, precisely.
"Not everyone can be saved" doesn't mean someone doesn't/shouldn't get a chance. It means they may not even be willing to take that chance in the first place.
I dont like how everyone just glosses over irohs war crimes either, but at least we know he was willing to repent. Mind you, zuko was always bad asf and still managed to change. However, it was still a struggle for him in the beginning. From a narrative sense, I just think it'd be more emotionally impactful to see a reflection of iroh and ozai in azula and zuko. The tragedy of two siblings dragged through the same shit circumstances but one was able to rise above despite all that, and one wasn't.
Also, azula stans love to bring up her age as if she hasn't been showing psychopathic tendencies since age four. Sometimes kids are just shitty people, that happens.
Tell me you don’t view Azula as her character on her own but as a narrative accessory to elevate Zuko’s character, and “if Azula got redemption arc Zuko’s would be less special🥺” without saying them explicitly. So some character’s glory has to be built on the other character’s pain and misery, the more miserable the more desperate the latter is, the more glorified the former is? Got you, so you shut down a 14-year-old’s future while giving a pass to a man who was at least 50 who changed his course cuz he suffered a personal loss in the invasion he waged, all these so that your precious the best of all time redemption arc is more glorified. Let’s all forget about how Azula was been born the prodigy, had no adult to actually make her feel she can be loved unconditionally so that she could only crave for her father’s appreciation, and that her chance of reflecting on her course came at the end of the show.
And psychopathic tendencies at the age of 4 LMAO please try harder hiding your predisposition and bias towards azula the next time. Burning a wooden toy by accident when your firebending ability got unlocked the first time didn’t sound “psychopathic” (whatever this ableist word meant by you) to me. All her later behaviors do not look out of the line of a spoiled mean-spirited kid who had been picked and groomed by her father and influenced by the fire nation values oh and mind you she is also the princess worshipped by everyone.
Every time I watch The Beach episode and it gets to the part where Zuko burns the family portrait, I always think about how Azula felt when he does that.
We see Zuko's facial expression as this is going on, which is anger
Although he was pretty much angry about everything at this point, so it may not have had anything to do with burning the photo at all. But what about Azula? How did she feel about this? We know that the family beach house holds painful memories for her too, as shown when she immediately knew where to find Zuko after the party.
She sees that being there is bringing Zuko down, so she tells him to come down to the beach with her, and then she turns around and begins walking away while saying "this place is depressing". Which means that, much like Zuko, she has feelings about that place too. But as per usual, the writers just made everything that had to do with their family about Zuko, instead of the both of them. That was Azula's family too, not just Zuko's. Really wish that we got scenes of what Azula thought about these things.
So this is kind of fascinating in a way that I'm pretty sure was completely unintended by the writers. Let's look at that portrait a bit closer. We see Ursa's gaze seeming pointed towards Zuko. Ozai's hand is resting somewhat gently on Zuko's shoulder, given the slight upturn of the lips on Zuko's face in the closeup of the portrait.
Azula is sitting in proper seiza staring straight ahead, just...kinda there.
If we had nothing else, and were told that one of those children were favored? That portrait looks like the favored child is Zuko, because he's the only one getting any kind of parental affection (from Ozai, nonetheless!)
Obviously, that doesn't seem right.
Let's then consider Azula's reactions to him burning this family portrait. A family portrait she is in. Or rather, her non-reaction. Adding that to Zuko's memories of Ember Island that don't seem to include her at all, him burning the portrait almost reads like just another moment where she's the outsider looking in on the family. That, against all logic, Azula is the forgotten one until Zuko wasn't really there.
And other than the snazzy new ship, which she got instead of the kind of rundown ship Zuko did when he was the banished prince-in-exile...what privileges, really, did Azula get as "favored" that Zuko did not when he was in the same position? (I'm not talking about "meeting Ozai's insane expectations" btw. I'm talking about the things Zuko would think he deserves and is owed.)
Again, this is really weird. Zuko is supposed to be the disfavored son. That's his narrative arc. But also, in a way, it also makes sense. There's a reading here that Azula got a little bit of attention and suddenly Zuko is omg neglected forever.
It's actually a psychological and sociological phenomenon. There have been multiple studies showing how perception of female participation is skewed to be much greater than it actually is. To the point where when there is parity between male and female, people often perceive that women are dominating the conversation. And it's not just in conversations. A 2015 study surveyed people asking 1800 executives to estimate the number of female CEOs in the largest corporations. Average male answer was 25%. Average female answer was 21%.
Actual answer: 8%.
More relevantly to us here, there was a study done that found that the average crowd in G-rated movies was only 17% female.
So there's this completely unintended implication here, which is really interesting to think about as the message the show is sending. Because when you put the framing of the show alongside actual sociological and media research, you might end up with the question of if Azula's original sin against Zuko isn't that she took all of Ozai's attention.
Had some more thoughts about the letter Ursa wrote to Ikem about her only comfort in her marriage to Ozai is her and Ikem's son, Zuko. And I realized something. I know that a lot of people in the fandom say that the reason why she didn't include Azula in that letter is because Azula reminded her too much of Ozai, and other stuff like that. But there's just one problem. When Ursa writes that letter? This is how old both Zuko and Azula are:
Zuko looks like he can be either 3 or 4 years old, and Azula is a baby. So you're telling me that she reminds Ursa of Ozai at....one years old? At best? Yeah, no. It's just more bad writing and Yang not understanding the characters to the point where he thinks that this actually makes Ursa more sympathetic. Which, it does, if you don't really think all to much about it. But in reality, all it does is make her look worse and worse as a mother. And again, that's fine. Character flaws are good. It makes the characters more interesting. You know what's not interesting? Never having the character own up to said flaws and writing it as if it were a good thing, and pretending that they did nothing wrong. And acting like the people who rightfully have issues with that character because of these flaws are in the wrong and crazy.
...you want to know why Aang was a good character?
Because he had issues. Deep down, he had demons that he wrangled with. He struggled with the Avatar State because he was afraid he'd go berserk and kill everyone. He struggled with what it means to be the Avatar. He struggled with being the last of his kind and honoring their legacy.
Yet he dealt with each and every one of them and came out stronger for it.
So why am I bringing this up? Well, let's consider Ursa for a moment. She has been getting progressively worse with each comic. First she was abandoned her children to Ozai. Sure, she recognized it as a bad thing, but then she didn't do anything during the Kemurikage incident despite knowing Azula was there. And then she tried to shift blame off of herself in Ashes of the Academy. Yet she's considered to be the moral center of the Royal Family just like Aang is for the Gaang?
You want to know what the difference is? Ursa never deals with her issues. She hands it off to somebody else so it can be taken care of for her. She'll lament about how bad things have gotten, but she'll never do anything to actually FIX things on her end. She's not admirable. She's not even a character. She's just a tragic victim we're supposed to feel sorry for.
Aang was a character who came to grips with his issues. Ursa is an object of pity despite having squandered every last amount of sympathy she was afforded. That's what Yang and Bryke have reduced her to. Just a thing to coddle their bastardization of Zuko.
