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put dick on a team and trust he will make sure they can perform as an acrobat troop

Part of being a Dick Grayson stan is acknowledging the fact that if in a bad mood he can be the meanest person in the universe, and if you push him past his unknowable threshold of patience he will zero in on the worst experience of your life that you have never forgiven yourself for and will always hate yourself for and he will (very eloquently) rip it from your chest to hold it bloody and raw for all to see.

kiragecko

Original Teen Titans and how they're mean:

Dick Grayson - will bring up the most vulnerable things about you, that you TRUSTED him with, to hurt you when he's mad. Often, he isn't even mad at you!

Donna Troy - will shame you for not getting over trauma quickly enough. Will also throw you through walls if your pain makes you say mean things, but, frankly, that's usually Dick and he kinda deserves it.

Roy Harper - from what I've seen, he gets surprisingly raw and vulnerable when angry. Lets you hurt him and then looks at you like you've failed him. But I'm realizing I don't actually know these guys well enough to be sure.

Also. Migraine.

worldsmallest

Batboys + their temper ╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭

biwing

The batfam: yeah Dick is our most stable and emotionally mature family member

The og titans who have seen his many many breakdowns:

bitimdrake

batfam: and he’s so emotionally open and expressive compared to the rest of us too <3

the og titans, who regularly mock dick for being a repressed, secretive, mission-focused, cold bastard:

pluckyredhead

Let’s talk about Roy’s abandonment issues!

So this is a thing I come back to over and over again when I’m writing Roy, and for me it’s a super crucial aspect of his character, and one of his biggest stumbling blocks in relationships.

Roy is a Good Little Extrovert, right? He’s charming and flirty and very very good at faking being okay, so it’s easy to miss the ways in which he falls into his own unhealthy patterns. (Especially because he tends to fall into them with people who have a vested interest in believing him when he lies and says he’s okay.)

You can trace Roy’s abandonment issues pretty clearly and consistently through his canon from “Snowbirds Don’t Fly” on, but there are three moments in particular that for me, really inform how he reacts to feeling abandoned, and why: the detox flashback in the Arsenal miniseries, his breakup with Donna in Titans ‘99, and his breakup with Jason in RH/A.

So! Arsenal #1!

This is the only time Roy ever says the inside thoughts out loud, and naturally it’s when he’s at his lowest possible point. (We do not speak of Cry for Justice or Rise of Arsenal in this space.) And yes, he’s a teenager, and yes, he’s detoxing, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true, and that doesn’t mean the feelings will ever fully go away. There’s a part of Roy that will always believe that he is fundamentally unlovable and deserves to be left. That no one will ever stay, because no one ever has. (It probably doesn’t help that not only did both of his fathers die, they did so by charging in to meet death head-first - Ollie specifically after Roy asked him not to.)

Keep reading

dailyjasontodd

Throwback to the time Clark helped a woman deliver a baby and then suggested she named him Jason, after Jason Todd (who had recently died)

Batman & Superman: World’s Finest #7 (1999)

thetinysmallbird

here are some panels of bruce dealing with the aftermath of jason’s death bc im a sucker for angst skjsksn

samiralula01

it's okay, we're all suckers, so here are some more panels:

forestlingincorporated

...So, are the Drakes criminals?

One thing that comes up in a lot of Catlad/Stray/Kitten AUs feat. Tim Drake is the idea that the Drakes are lowkey thieves. Specifically, that they steal artifacts from their archeological digs. Makes sense for the AU, but is there any validity to that in canon?

Um… yeah. Actually.

So, at first, I thought that Drake Industries did something with archeology? Like, they were an archeological… company? But while going through the Batman comics of the time period and early Robin comics with a fine tooth comb to write the initial DI entry on DC Database, I found that Drake Industries seems to have NOTHING to do with archeology. The only thing DI is specifically said to specialize in is medical equipment.

Tim describes both his parents “trotting the globe digging up ancient civilizations,” despite archeology not seeming to be Drake Industries’ business. It appears to be a hobby both parents partook in.

So, that’s… fine? I think? I… think you can volunteer on a dig as an enthusiast.

But then I noticed this panel from Cry of the Huntress when Tim and Jack are newly moved in next door to Bruce, because…

Well, I recognize that statue. I took an art history class in college, and that is definitively a Venus figurine, a la “the Venus of Willendorf,” from Paleolithic Europe.

Now, that doesn’t mean it’s stolen from a dig. It could be purchased legitimately! However… I don’t know, the comics where pretty clear what the Drakes’ spending range was for art.

A Lonely Place of Dying has this interesting but out-of-place interaction with Tim during his first visit to the Wayne Manor. He notes Bruce’s Erte statue, and comments on how his dad purchased a lithograph the year before… but he appears impressed that Bruce owns a statue.

This is important to NOTHING in this plot, but it establishes the Drakes’ level of wealth vs Bruce’s level of wealth. Lithographs are generally speaking more affordable than serigraphs, of which Erte produced both, due to how they are made (though, limited editions can change the value of the piece) which suggests that the Drakes are buying on the cheaper end of the high art print spectrum.

Now, I can’t tell you how much this particular statue is worth, because I can’t tell if this particular statue is meant to be a particular Erte; I can’t find a match. I’ve seen Erte statues listed for $1,800 at auction, and I’ve seen them listed for $13,000. There are certainly lithos more expensive than some statues, however I’ve seen some Erte lithos only price in the hundreds, and I’ve never seen a statue price that low. The implication is that the Drakes don’t have as much cash to spend on having nice Things as Bruce does. I suspect most of their money goes towards funding their lavish lifestyle: travel, multiple homes, fancy boarding schools, etc. Still filthy rich, but they’re not cracking the thousands on art.

And artifacts at auction? Are not cheap.

That said, it could simply be a replica, which can be very affordable for the average archeology nerd. There’s still no evidence of wrong-doing.

Or… there was no evidence, until…

In the Robin 80-Page Giant, we see Jack on a dig, where he officially describes himself as an amateur archaeologist.

On this dig he finds an artifact of unknown provenance and just… takes it home. Gives it to his fiancé as a wedding present.

Archaeologists do not keep the objects they excavate, in today’s day and age, since the remains generally belong to the country in which they are found. Like, an actual archeologist can correct me, but it shouldn’t matter that the professional Jack is working under seems to think it’s “costume jewelry,” it’s still part of the dig.

Jack is just so cavalier about taking it home, too, it just seems like something he’s done before. Like, I’m pretty sure he’s just casually commiting a crime and his archeologist friend is, like, enabling him.

So, that’s why I’m convinced the Drakes, or at least Jack, are lowkey treasure hunters and tomb robbers. Like, again, super not an expert, but I’m like 75% sure this is illegal as hell.

samiralula01

Things Bruce Wayne Never Did Again After Jason’s Murder

I was just thinking about how drastically different Bruce became after Jason died. Like, this man just stopped doing so much, especially when it came to his familial bonds and relationships.

Correct me if I’m wrong, (because I’m just spitballing here and maybe I just haven’t read a comic where it did happen) but there’s a couple things I’ve never seen Bruce do with the other kids in the comics after Jason died.

Being (emotionally) close with his children:

I’ve noticed Bruce point this out from time to time in his thought boxes; that letting people get close to him, by admitting that he cares about them, is what gets them killed. Or at least the fear of that doesn’t allow him to form attachments anymore.

Which I find interesting, because Bruce was so terrified of losing Jason during his run as Robin. Like, it was actually concerning to me how often this man would hallucinate or dream about Jason getting hurt or dying in the eighties…? Heck, Bruce’s mind on fear gas still went to Jason even after his death. But that didn’t prevent him from creating a bond with Jason during his child years (as you’ll notice his name wasn’t mentioned with the others above).

So I’m wondering if his murder was the point where this became a realised fear for Bruce and made him push people away because it came true.

Being easy with physical affection:

Bruce is always so stiff these days when it comes to patting his kids on their shoulders or head, or heaven forbid, giving them hugs if they look traumatised enough. He is just a very awkward man. Like, what happened to that other guy? The one who was always ruffling his son’s hair and tucking him under his arm like it was the only natural thing to do.

Being playful with his kids:

This one hurts. Like Bruce could be so fun with his first two kids. He teased and wrestled with them, played video games, took them out to movies and games and racetracks, and it was 90% completely non-mission related. Heck, he even made puns himself sometimes. He enjoyed spending time with them and put effort into doing just that.

After Jason was murdered, I never saw that again. Tim was always doing his solo thing, and didn’t really spend time with Bruce outside of cowl; (of course, he wasn’t exactly his son then like his predecessors were, so that might have come off as weird); Bruce and Cass have a very mission-focused (obsessive) relationship and Damian…oh, Damian. Yeah, Bruce wasn’t taking him out to the zoo or anything on weekends.

Driving the kids to school:

Well, Cassandra never really received any formal education as a child in a public school setting type-a-way, but I don’t believe Bruce has ever driven Tim or Damian to school. It was always Alfred who chauffeured them. I wondered if the thought bothered Bruce. Hence, I’m putting it down on the list of things Bruce stopped doing after Jason.

Calls the kids by nicknames:

I’ve never seen Bruce refer to Tim, Cass or Damian by any sort of nickname, despite the fact that he always seemed to be affectionately calling Dick and Jason some form of “chum,” “lad,” or “sport,” while they were Robin. Heck, I think Bruce might have even used “Jay,” more than Jason’s actual name when he was a kid.

Allowing the Robins to wear their uniforms upstairs.

This one was a three A.M thought to me. I know for a fact that Dick and Jason used to chill in the Manor in full or partial uniform during their runs and even kept their uniforms in their bedroom closets, but then when Tim became Robin, Bruce all of a sudden strictly implemented the rule of ‘no uniforms upstairs.’

Part of me wonders if he was trying to separate “Robin” from the family home aspect as a grieving thing. Like he needed to keep the two separate after Jason.

Celebrate Holidays

So apparently, “holidays aren’t a thing,” anymore during Tim’s era according to the Bat-scrooge. Which is actually kinda funny, considering he would put up a full-on Christmas tree in the cave only a few years prior or at least make some effort so that his kids could have a jolly christmas despite unhappy circumstances.

However, I must note that although they (especially Bruce,) never celebrated in the Manor, the other Bats did attempt to have the holidays together on their own which is really cute. And good for them! Who cares about that scrooge Bruce?

princedrewwrites

so I’m reading death in the family for the first time ever and

does. does jason own land. is that land his now. is there just some random patch of land in virginia amongst all the other wayne properties that bruce was too embarrassed to tell jason was his. i know nothing about property law in the us but like. isn’t that his now. someone please. tell me.

samiralula01

No, I'm not lying awake at night thinking about the fact that Bruce never confessed to Jason what his greatest fear was because it eventually came true...

(Detective Comics #571 - Fear for $ale)

I'm just thinking about the fact that death didn't change Bruce's fear at all.

(Batman #496 – Die Laughing)

supersonicsidekick

Deadman: Dead Again #2 - The Death of Jason Todd Revisited

Green Arrow Vol 3 #7 - Jason Todd In Heaven

Man, these panels make me so emotional. I mean, I knew that Jason still tried to save his mom even after he betrayed her, but knowing it and seeing it in action is truly heartbreaking. And then “… she betrayed me to the Joker, got us both blow up– But I’m not mad at her.”

And Deadman. I love how he’s known Jason for less than five minutes, and he’s ready to fight Batman for not finding Jason in time. And Jason stops him, because he doesn’t blame Bruce. He thinks it’s all his fault, even though it really, really isn’t.

And that tear, when his mom says he was a good kid. The small “thanks mom.”

And then he get’s to go to Heaven and be happy. At least for six months—till he’s brought back in the most brutal way possible only to find out that he’s unavenged.

samiralula01

Y'all can joke about the Jason Todd memorial duck pond, but I'll just stay crying about Bruce funding and sponsoring educational programs after his son died as a way to cope with losing him.

-- (Batman #450 - Wildcard!)

And he doesn't just throw money around for school trips and leaves it like that either. He's very involved in supporting education and sponsors kids from Crime Alley personally. (Wonder why there, hm?)

In Batman #465 - "Debut", Batman and Robin come across two of these such kids on patrol attempting to rob a store before Tim decides to just scare them off, seeing as they were just nervous and new to being would-be-criminals anyway.

Batman is visibly upset by this upon recognising them and Tim, who is still new to the whole gig, thinks he did something wrong himself at first before Bruce corrects him and says that he knows the boys.

So while Tim is off biting his tongue about that, Bruce cuts patrol early and drives down to Crime Alley. (Though I guess he learnt his lesson since then about leaving a car parked around that area since he brought a driver this time 😆...😢)

It's not difficult to see why Bruce wanted to sponsor these kids personally especially after he had Jason give him a rude awakening about what it's like to live in such a hopeless place like that. Not that he's around to do that anymore for him...

-- (Batman #408 - Did Robin die tonight?)

So yeah, I'll stay crying. Pre-Jason Bruce used to only go to Crime Alley once a year, and now he stops by as often as he can to help the kids in the neighbourhood go to school and support themselves. Tell me he's not doing it for his son.

bitimdrake

I liked the post and lost the post, so I can’t remember which of you talked in tags about the pit’s influence on Jason having nothing to do with anger and being more about a blunting of his compassion–

But upon skimming back through Lost Days I am pretty sure that is not only a valid interpretation but also, like, literally exactly what we are supposed to understand to be true.

There’s nothing in the stories around Jason’s return to indicate he’s experiencing any uncontrollable anger–or even uncharacteristic anger at all–let alone some kind of green-out “pit rage”. The way he acts on his anger is extreme and uncharacteristic of the kid he used to be, but the sources of his anger and the moments it gets triggered are all…pretty reasonable for someone in his situation? (Feeling like he’s been replaced, been forgotten, hating that Joker is alive, etc.) Maybe not all are fair, but the emotions are totally understandable.

On the other hand, there are a number of moments in Lost Days where it’s mentioned–by Talia in particular–that Jason IS uncharacteristically uncaring. The vast majority of his revenge planning is done not with wild bursts of anger but with this very cold, calculated focus.

And I’d argue we keep seeing that pattern, if from a more external pov, in UtRH and similar stories. Red Hood Jason hates all the same things Robin Jason hated, and he’s mad about all the things a traumatized kid would be mad about…but, unlike Robin Jason, he also doesn’t really care who gets hurt in the pursuit of his plans.

And that is the concerning behavior.

(We also do see brief moments where that old compassion cracks the surface: Jason going out of his way to not just kill child traffickers in Lost Days #3, but also help the kids after the violence is done. Jason being totally ready to blow Bruce up, and then unable to go through with it when actually he sees Bruce in person. And I imagine if we’d ever gotten a good redemption arc, instead of the new 52 reboot just kinda jumping past it, it would be about focusing on those moments where he still managed to care about something, and drawing them out, and redeveloping his compassion even though it is hard and scary and sometimes painful.)

dick-nightwing-grayson

I hate Bruce's "I don't kill because once I start, I wouldn't be able to stop"

Like I simply do not buy it. Murder is not a potato chip Bruce. I think he is full of shit and a messy bitch who lives for the drama. I am certain Bruce has some kind of valid reason for not killing, but I don't believe that this is it.

frostbittenbucky

No no let’s dig into this. And let’s not go into the obvious of, “murders bad” or “he’d feel guilty” like let’s try to find another reason to why this bitch man doesn’t kill anyone, including his son’s murderer

fantastic-nonsense

So there are generally around 5-6 "big reasons" traditionally given for why Bruce doesn't kill his villains, many of which have been explored in comics and others of which have been discussed and debated ad nauseum around the internet. Here's the four I tend to find most compelling:

Bruce's moral code that prohibits killing is ultimately what separates him from those he fights against. He follows a very strict deontological viewpoint of "killing is wrong, regardless of intentions or consequences." Jason, by contrast, has a "ends justify the means" consequentialist mentality of "if you kill a criminal, you prevent more crime, so the killing is justified." The ethical dilemma surrounding this issue is that who are you, random quasi-legal vigilante on a self-imposed quest to end crime, to decide when you are or aren't preventing "more killing/crime" by killing a criminal? What makes Bruce qualified to determine who should get to live and die? He doesn't think he is, so he's simply said "I don't have that right. I'll instead work to save everyone, regardless of who they are/what they've done (to me or anyone else)."

Bruce's "if I start killing, I don't think I'd be able to stop" is less "murder is a potato chip" and more about the rationalization it would take to take that first step off the edge. Essentially, if he kills Joker, why not kill Two-Face? What makes killing Joker fundamentally different from killing Two-Face? From killing Penguin? From killing Harley, Ivy, Killer Croc, etc? Why is killing the Joker okay but killing say....Victor Zzasz isn't? When does a villain commit enough illegal and morally reprehensible acts that extrajudicial murder is an acceptable solution?

Part of the point and purpose of Bruce being Batman in addition to Bruce Wayne, CEO of Wayne Enterprises, is the flexibility he has in pursuing justice, rehabilitation, and re-education. The entire point of Batman is preventing the Wayne Family Tragedy™ from happening to anyone else. Bruce's entire mission in life is creating a world where "no more children lose their parents to some punk with a gun." Batman is supposed to prevent more children from becoming orphans, more wives from becoming widows, more husbands from becoming widowers, more parents from losing their children. What does killing do except perpetuate that cycle of violence and undermine his core mission?

How is Batman any different from the cops if he kills? Batman can't be a figure to inspire reform in the criminal justice system (and specifically the GCPD) if he kills, because how does that make Batman any better than the corrupt system he claims to want to make better? Batman killing doesn't inspire hope that there is a better way; it would just be an extension of how Gotham's "justice system" works anyway. By refusing to cross that line Batman as a symbol encourages Gotham to be better than they are.

As an expansion of #2, you could very reasonably make the point that "but it's the Joker! He's different!" But is he? Is he really? He's certainly done more permanent personal harm to the Batfamily than most other villains (Babs and Jason specifically), but what about Two-Face smashing Dick to pieces with a baseball bat in Robin: Year One? What about Black Mask torturing Steph to death during War Games? What about Shiva killing Cass in Batgirl (even if she brought her back)? What about Ra's nearly killing Tim in Red Robin? What about Talia murdering Damian by proxy (via Heretic) in Batman Inc.? What about Bane murdering Alfred in City of Bane? Where's the line?

Bruce has seen 3-4 people he's either legally or nominally responsible for die on his watch, the other 3 tortured to near-death conditions on multiple occasions, 1 permanently injured, and had a villain murder the man who raised him and leave his body for Bruce to find, and yet the only thing anyone really ever talks about re: Bruce killing is Jason and the Joker. If the line is torturing one of his kids (or those flying under his banner) half to death, by all rights he should have killed Two-Face and Black Mask for what they did to Dick and Steph. If it's killing a 'family' member, he should have killed Joker, Black Mask, Bane, and Talia (also Lex Luthor and...technically Jacob Kane, considering everyone thought Tim was dead).

It's not just the Joker at stake here: if we start saying "Batman should kill the Joker because of what he did to Jason [and everyone else]," you start getting into really thorny questions about well...a lot of Bruce's villains have done some ridiculously morally reprehensible stuff, including mass murder and irreparable personal harm to someone he considers family. What makes the Joker's mass murder different from Ivy's mass murder (and yes, canonically they are both mass murderers) that justifies the Joker's death but not Ivy's?

You can of course justify that by saying "but Ivy's not unredeemable! She can be reasoned with and rehabilitated!" but...what if Bruce had made the decision that she was unredeemable and worthy of death before her No Man's Land-era redemption arc kicked off? It loops back around to #1, that Bruce doesn't feel personally qualified to make that moral and ethical decision about who gets to live or die, because he thinks everyone has the personal capacity to change (and what right does he have to take that possibility away from someone?)

....also personally I think "they deserve to die" and "I deserve to kill them/let them die" aren't morally/ethically equivalent statements and Bruce can certainly think Joker deserves to die without also thinking he is morally allowed to kill him (or morally allowed to let someone else kill him when he has the ability to stop them).

queen-lance

Green Arrow V2 #21 // Batman Plus Arsenal V1 #1 // ❔ // Green Arrow V3 #21 // The Flash V5 Annual #4

Just a few panels of Ollie and Roy calling each other father and son that I had at hand

'Cause guess what? They are father and son and they do love each other

There are many more besides these, plus looots of moments of Roy calling Ollie "old man", Ollie calling Roy "my kid"/"my boy" or just... The two of them loving each other. Surprising huh?

binghelovebot

By the way if you're going to bring up this quote from Winnick? I think the context of this being an interview of Winnick when he was hired to do the last two Jason issues for Morrison's incredibly ooc Jason run is important.

This is not Winnick talking about Under the Red Hood, specifically.

And I think that's pretty important context. Even in the middle of probably Jason's most outright villainous moments in the comics, Winnick was still openly saying Jason doesn't want to kill everyone and Jason believes this is justice.

Additionally, yes Winnick did say he loves writing about Jason's hypocrisy. He also said he loves writing about Oliver Queen's hypocrisy. Winnick just likes looking at characters and seeing where he can pull them apart and make them contradict themselves, it's not a Jason specific trait.

I'm a pretty big "i don't care about the author" person but if you're going to use this interview when talking about UTRH for your meta but not mention the actual context? Hm.

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mae