secretblstash

a memorial of my current hyperfixations ♡ mostly novels (Turning, Debut or Die, gsgw, thgll, sctir...)

[gailmirus]

Chapter 1421-1422 Thoughts

Help me 😫😫, Kuyu has been edging us these past two chapters about the reveal of Yuder being Hellem's potential grandson. To think that Kishiar was trying to ease into this conversation knowing that both Hellem and Yuder would probably react somewhat sensitively to any kind new information and I'm over here clenching my fists in anguish because Kuyu wants to put us through the edging wringer 😩😩.

There's too little information regarding Pasca's (Hellem's son) little family, including his wife and child. Hellem didn't even get into Yuder's potential parents' appearances, but I was leaning towards Yuder being more similar to his mom. Not only was she an orphan, but she was a commoner as well. She rose to a position in both the Pearl Tower and even transferred over to the Royal Court Wizards through her own capabilities. There's no way she's not Yuder's mom. Their stories are too similar.

Though there was another baby involved in the list of villagers who had died who could potentially have been Yuder, that wouldn't provide enough information on Yuder's magic sensitivity. Though magical potential isn't entirely reliant on genetics, it is greatly influenced by it.

To know that Hellem remembers every single building, animal, and individual who were involved in the incident, down to the exact numbers, down to the last detail, really shows how much she regrets and mourns over her son's death. Her pride as a noble and wizard prevented her from properly maintaining her relationship with her son, and as an extension, her daughter in law and grandson. As a person who practically helped raise Kishiar from his teenage years to adulthood, her openness to Yuder being Kishiar's love interest had been surprising. Listening to this part of her story really shows how willingly Hellem accepted Kishiar's love for Yuder, seeing as her opposition against her son's relationship had been the demise of their connection. Both Yuder and his potential mother had been commoners, orphans, and of questionable reputation, but the difference in how Hellem handled each parallel shows her growth as a person as well as her immense regret.

In the scenario that Yuder is Hellem's grandson, I feel like she would have so many questions about Yuder's background. So far, Yuder had never been clear about how he grew up or who raised him to the large majority of the people in the story because his background doesn't align with his capabilities. He had been allowed to be vague about his background with some individuals such as Gino and Nathan who would typically pry for safety reasons. Hellem herself had been able to notice how similarly Yuder functions with Kishiar.

It's as if, in ways Kishiar wouldn’t, Yuder handled things in a Kishiar-like manner. If Hellem had seen Yuder elsewhere first, she might have suspected Kishiar had picked him up somewhere and secretly taught him. (Chp. 945)

So far, only Kishiar and Enon know about Yuder's time traveling and his main objective. In the scenario where Hellem would even question what had happened to Yuder and if Yuder is even willing to share (this is a very big IF), Hellem's knowledge regarding monsters would be extremely helpful in further delving into the nature of the world, the nature of the red stone, and in turn, the nature of Yuder's time traveling.

[cyrellinate]

smthg abt kishiar who, prereveal, is aware that yuder has some kind of secret but chooses to love and support him anyway, reassuring him of his trustworthiness and loveability regardless of any secrets he has, and then later finding out the true weight of the secret that intertwines uncomfortably deeply with himself and his core.

[yudrein]

kishiar when yuder dropped to his knees in the carriage:

[cluelessgeometry]

Can you blame him?

[cyrellinate]

Would you fuck your own clone? ft. some Turning manhwa cast

[cyrellinate]

👀

Tell me more pretty please? 🥺 (letters, asking from main)

👀👀👀 ok this is gonna be long but basically from my pov it's how 1tl kishiar's actions and intent do not exist in a vacuum and examining how it affects and the implications it brings on his relationship with yuder is a really interesting point that i just microwave over and over again. it's how it's easy to say that yes kishiar's intent wasn't at all to manipulate or power abuse yudrein and how it did come from a genuine yearning and love but it doesn't mean that the inherent power dynamic of commoner/royalty, subordinate/commander, 20/29 doesnt affect that relationship, that it doesnt fuck it up a lot too. 1tl kishiyu was not at all on equal terms lmao and i think that it's okay (and fun!) to put that into discussion when talking abt 1tl kishiar

CONTENT WARNING: Discussions of and allusions to sexual coercion, dubious consent, and nonconsent

DISCLAIMER: first of all, i want to say that i understand where the fandom's reluctance on discussing this and the discomfort around this topic comes from, esp for a beloved character like kishiar. it can feel like condemnation, because a lot of people for some reason think that liking a character means endorsing everything that they do. however, i do believe that there is merit in discussing this aspect to their relationship as it not only provides depth from a narrative standpoint but also that engaging with fictional media with awareness of what it can entail is an important mindset to have, and that it shouldn't always have to reflect on what your personal beliefs are. saying this just in case, but this post is not made to condemn kishiar as a character nor anyone liking him (if you know me im like Big Kishiar Fan guy here) nor will i appreciate anyone using this post in that way. please be aware of your own comfort levels.

ramble ahead >>

in your (letters) og post, you brought up the dubious consent nature of 1tl kishiyu, and i agree! it's interesting because i agree that kishiar is not at all someone who'd force himself onto another (ESPECIALLY yuder) if the other had said no, but that's the catch. on top of their power gap, we don't know how and in what state yudrein had agreed to the whole fuckbuddies thing, and frankly it's kinda hard to imagine he was enthusiastic about it considering the Incident. one would argue that yuder isn't one to bow down on nobility and would've outwardly refused if he Truly didn't want to, but I beg to differ, and I come bringing evidences. Perhaps if it was other nobles, but kishiar is evidently different in context, and we HAVE actually seen 1tl yuder being reluctant to talk back to kishiar (chap 540):

both yuder and yudrein had also always subconsciously held kishiar in a pedestal. that's why even if yuder had outwardly said yes to the whole fuckbuddies thing, i would argue that, at least from our current information, it didn't seem like an enthusiastic or healthy one to warrant saying that it was perfectly consensual. ntm the flashback scene of the fuckbuddies proposition, which while not elaborated in the novel, the manhwa made it look like it was made not long after the incident (novel 37 and manhwa 25)

which add onto the dubious pile because yuder didn't seem like he was in the position to clearly think about it, had he agreed at that moment. and i would even argue that even after that too, considering he never realized his feelings for kishiar.

yuder's impression of the fuckbuddies situationship was also never good, even after he had gotten together with kishiar 2tl. even if he did had feelings for kishiar that he didn't know of, i think it shouldn't negate the bad experience either. it'd make the dynamic of 1tl kishiyu more interesting imo with the dubious angle on top of its already tragic nature. the fact that 2tl yuder got a sense of liberty over having a semblance of choice over his sexual activities also say a lot about the unhealthy nature of 1tl kishiyu, me thinks (ch 459)

so in conclusion my take on the fuckbuddies consent situation is that it was dubious as hell. even if yudrein had secretly liked it and yearned for kishiar's affections, i still think that it doesn't at all negate the dubious nature of it, plus the power imbalance it sits on really doesn't help. sure one can argue that expression of consent in writing can be dynamic (like, narratively speaking, sometimes having that scene of a healthy verbal discussions of consent in smut can break the flow of smexy and come off as therapytalk), but considering circumstancial evidence i really do find it hard to believe that yuder would be enthusiastic about this arrangement.

next, abt the power dynamics. i've already said it but there IS inherently a power gap with 1tl kishiyu, multiple ones in fact (age gap, status gap, mentor/student, subordinate/boss) that it really is such a cherry on top to the already noncommunicative nature of 1tl kishiyu. taking from letters' og post abt it too, kishiar was also the sole source of information and mentorship yudrein received, in which information that flows is controlled by kishiar. kishiar has power over yudrein in a lot of ways, and whether kishiar truly realizes the full scope of that or not is tbh anyone's guess. and kishiar was absolutely using yudrein for his own goals, was aware of it, felt guilty of it, and continued to do it (hence the stone pieces scene). he felt fit to entrust yudrein with a huge responsibility despite their mutual noncon tragedy. they were never on equal grounds, and power imbalance is like toxic relationship 101.

and here comes my favorite part: Kishiar, specifically. because this all looks bad on paper, but we know kishiar. we know that he never intended any malicious intent and that it all rooted on desperation and love, plus his own spiraling mental health. and my take is that both of these can coexist and is also simultaenously the cause of it. this is why i said kishiar's intent and actions do not exist in a vacuum, because said actions still bore consequences despite his intent. it's Tragedy in the way that he held so much love and yearning, but in his quest to quench it he had exerted power and hurt over the very person he loved with all his being. the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and good intentions alone won't undo the harm it causes. this is exactly the point that gets me so crazy abt 1tl kishiar because??? wow his fuckbuddy situationship (that HE started) is dubious as fuck and his power imbalance (which, in kuyu's qna where kuyu said 1tl kishiar was very aware of the age gap, id assume hed know too to some extent) is dubious as fuck and hes being intentionally cruel too a lot of times, damaging yuder's sense of self-worth thoroughly and irreversibly changed him while also simulatenously holding such deep and painfully yearnful love. his extreme self-awareness and guilt about it too is so deliciously gutwrenching for me, like fuckk i eat that up so good. i speculate too that another reason why he never revealed his love overtly other than the fact that he's dying is that hed think it rlly would be insulting. imagine if your whole life got uprooted and youre being pushed and pulled around (heh) by your superior seemingly on a whim, then you were told that it was done out of love. i'd be on the news. maybe thats why 1tl kishiar never bothered with apologies either; because he thinks that it couldn't and shouldn't be forgiven, even if he desperately wants to. 1tl kishiar is contradictory especially with his genuine love and intentional cruelty. and it's exactly that side of him that scared 2tl kishiar the most (one of it, tbf) when it comes to facing the white gloves, because kishiar is self-aware and he's made fully aware that he has the capabilities of all that. that's why i truly do find takes on kishiar in regarding to the power he holds to be real interesting. ive seen a post here somewhere too pointing out that kishiar's way of playing and manipulating with people can be terrifying, because it depends on who he deems it to be deserving or not. kishiar is not malicious in nature, but perhaps its that intentionality paired with his proficiency in influencing people when he deems it necessary enough that can be scary when dealing with him.

AND NOW WE'RE BACK TO YUDER because character agency is very important here too and it's also what cements kishiyu as Very Insane to me. i've listed down the dubious nature of 1tl kishiyu's relationship, and yuder would have PLENTY of reasons to truly resent kishiar. it would be VERY valid of yuder too if he were to not accept kishiar back in his life, because despite all the reasons and love and yearning, the harm is still done, and kishiar is painfully aware of this too. but he did. yuder accepted kishiar again and even loves him even deeper. he chose to look forward despite all the trauma and hurt and embraced kishiar again, chose to understand him deeper still despite everything. this is why kishiar is so reverent almost to the point of worship. this is why kishiar felt like as if yuder was his god who gave him everything. because in his view, he really did. yuder gave kishiar everything kishiar had ever yearned for despite literally everything that happened. this is why i and you all do not condemn kishiar for what he did; because yuder didn't. that's why i think it's important to acknowledge and discuss the true scope of problems in 1tl kishiyu because it really does make yuder's growth and decision regarding his relationship with kishiar even more meaningful. that's why too i really need yuder himself to also acknowledge that instead of automatically thinking that it's his fault for not understanding 1tl kishiar enough or the like :((

so tldr, i think the dubious nature of 1tl kishiyu is important because it makes 2tl kishiyu even more meaningful and Insane (and because i feed off this kind of angst So good)

[yudrein-aile]

LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS!! Will add from chapter 926, a passage that has haunted me:

The hands that would silently retreat as if even a lingering gaze was too much to bear.

Yuder had once suspected that the man, being of noble birth, wore gloves because he disliked touching a commoner like Yuder. It was common for nobles to mix with commoner concubines without fully undressing, revealing only parts of their bodies.

Even though the man must have known of Yuder's suspicions, he never explained, leading Yuder to believe it was the truth.

During those numerous nights, Yuder experienced fleeting yet profound misery. With each physical response of pleasure, an inexplicable, clumsy hope grew inside him, one that he couldn't eradicate. The wounds to his pride, stained anew each time that indescribable thing shattered. The realization on those miserable days that the man behind him was the only chest he could lean on and rely upon. Each time, the sprouts of his withering emotions dried up.

Like this is also an incredibly horrific description. Like Yuder at one point seemingly was under the impression that he is, essentially if I'm allowed to exaggerate a little, only slightly more convenient than a sex worker. Someone to fool around with, but not even a fuck buddy in the positive sense of mutual release, more like someone starving for affection and being utilized instead.

[cyrellinate]

AMAZING addition ourgfhgfh because even with the consent issues aside, this physical relationship is just genuinely so miserable for yuder that its only takeaway is the physical pleasure. literally big part of why his sense of self-worth is so fucked up. adding too the quote on the top of my Diabolical Kishiar Lines ranking (chp 400)

intentional cruelty at play again because wow way to convey that their relationship is practically meaningless. comes as he pleases, fucking yuder until unconsciousness, leaving a cold side of the bed for yuder to wake up to, making yuder think that he's only worth a bedwarmer, only to insinuate that their relationship isn't even a grain worth to him.

in kishiar's defense the gloves wasn't part of that cruelty because of his genuine issues with it but what IS cruelty is not communicating abt it!!! 1tl kishiyu is not miscommunication its kishiar deliberately shutting down any form of honest and personal communications!!! all while he keeps fucking yuder until he passes out irregularly. like my guy you know this looks real bad on you right.

[yudrein-aile]

all of this yes! And I find it particularly interesting because it isn't as though Kishiar is unaware of such behavior? In 460 we have

Discerning the sexual desire directed toward him had been such a frequent experience for Kishiar that it was difficult to keep count. Many nobles had looked down upon him as a foolish and dissolute scion of a soon-to-be-extinct imperial family. They treated him as if he were a perishable fruit that must be consumed before it rots away.

Of course, Kishiar was well aware that the world didn't only consist of such sticky desires, and that there was no need to be overly concerned about them. But knowing and feeling are two different things.

Like he has been looked at and treated as a sex object, so I find it fascinating that he is apparently mentally so down at rock bottom - he's dying again, he watched his brother die and his SIL potentially be murdered without being and to stop it - that he still treats Yuder in a way that gives away the exact feeling once directed at him

[cluelessgeometry]

But then is it really only the fact that Kishiar isn't dying in 2nd tl that makes him so much more different and open about his feelings? Yes, some of the causes of the power imbalance have disappeared (less "mental" age gap, Yuder being recognized as a nobility and him being definitely more powerful and all his achievements). But fundamentally, it's still there. So what really makes 1st and 2nd tl Kishiar so different?

This discussion is so important to me cause I love Kishiar with all my heart but yes, the power imbalance between them in 1st tl is something that always made me uncomfortable but now I finally have the words for it 💜

[cyrellinate]

ive always found that question interesting to think of because the answer is that they really are not that different fundamentally. it IS the fact that kishiar isn't dying that made him much more open with his feelings, but his 1tl qualities are still there inside him, and in 1tl, his 2tl qualities have also always existed. it's like the worst of 1tl situations brought out the worst in him; uncommunicative, catastrophizing, and selfish in a way, and you CAN actually see these qualities in 2tl kishiar somewhat appearing in stressful moments (like when he straight up lied and gaslit yuder into thinking that he was just fine when he was actually spending sleepless nights repeating the 1tl reveal games), and his green flag qualities being shadowed by his negative qualities in 1tl due to his highly stressful situation. im pretty sure kishiar realizes this too, hence why he's very uncomfy when faced with his 1tl self, because he knows deep down that it IS him, that he has the capabilities to do all that to yuder, and you can just sense he's fucking scared of that fact. yuder himself have also come to this conclusion that 1tl and 2tl kishiar are fundamentally the same (and chooses to accept the both of them as one, as Kishiar!), so it's definitely the direction that the novel wants to take!

and i think it's a far more interesting take too rather than that he changed simply because his situation got better. his "change" is a different side of him that's brought out, and the actual changes he makes (mainly regarding to emotional vulnerability because despite his friendly appearance, this man is actually very reluctant in laying bare his ACTUAL vulnerabilities) are changes that he actively works on. and ofc yuder's role is very big in this regards too with more experience and communication skills under his belt.

[cyrellinate]

the progression of kishiar's attitude towards yuder's self-sacrificial tendencies being concern -> light scolding -> frustration when it continues to happen (but also refuses to get angry at him knowing the intentions behind it) + feeling worse because yuder would apologize to him afterwards -> reconciliation in return for the assurance that it's yuder's best choice -> helpless acceptance and resolution to support him to minimize damages as much as he can

[evethemenace]

[yudreinbrainrot]

Turning Theory: Luma implanted an order in Yuder to save the world

Warning: contains spoilers for latest chs (1300s)

So there was a line that bothered me. In Ch 786, Yuder had a conversation with Enon where Enon asked:

“Didn’t you want to come back for revenge? You could have rested instead of joining the Cavalry right away. Why didn’t you think of that?”

And Yuder eventually replies

“I don’t know the reason. It wasn’t anything grand. Maybe it was just the biggest regret of an unfinished task. It’s the same even now.” Yes, it wasn’t a grand reason. The mere thought of having another chance to avert the impending disaster filled him with an involuntary joy. Captivated by that thought, nothing else mattered – not revenge, not emptiness. The newfound opportunity overshadowed everything. “Who asked you to save the world? If nobody believed in you, why go to such lengths?” “...” Well, why indeed? Yuder knew he was not a paragon of virtue. He had used his power for his Commander, for the Empire, for the Cavalry, living without questioning his actions. His sole purpose was what drove and sustained him, and that was no exaggeration. But then, one day, he found himself facing the people crumbling before the disasters striking all over the Empire. During moments when he was engrossed in researching ways to predict and avert these disasters, lost in problems with no apparent solutions. And then, in an almost indescribable sensation, harder even to call instinctual, he felt the onset of destruction amidst those inexplicable disasters. He was seized by an intense feeling, like a tidal wave crashing over him. If there was one single purpose for which his power was meant to be used, he was certain this was it. It was as if a command, etched deep within his heart, had suddenly become clear. This command, its origin unknown, compelled Yuder to rise and move in a direction entirely different from before... That voice... “...Ugh.” Lost in thought, Yuder suddenly furrowed his brow, touching his temple, overwhelmed by a piercing sensation in his head. 'What is this?'

Continuing in the next chapter, it's implied he has a memory he can't recall

"No... Just now, something... I felt like an odd memory I never had was about to surface, but it's gone now." "What was that?" Yuder bit his lip tightly and removed his hand from his head, where the headache had vanished. The strange sensation had surged up naturally the moment he heard Enon's question. The question about why he had strived so hard when no one had asked him to save the world. Yes. There was no such person. Obviously not, but... What was that odd thought that had naturally seeped out of his subconscious?

All this implies there was someone who asked him to save the world. At first I thought it may have been part of his memories with Kishiar that got "pushed" out of him but now it is finally becoming clear who might be behind this memory.

Finally in the latest chapter we learn that Yuder's grandpa was probably possessed by the soul of Luma as he was part of a sect of wizards that were able to receive a "Blessing of the Archmage" where a wizard who dies could be brought back to life miraculously but are implied to be possessed by a diff soul (Luma's). This is an excerpt of a similar accident happening that Kishiar found in historical records:

"Poor Mizere (presumably the name of the wizard who returned from the dead) went completely mad. He said that he knew that he was Mizere, but at the same time, he insisted that he could be someone else, and he said that he knew nothing about it nearly a hundred times a day" - from the diary of the investigator, wizard Anamessimo. Mizere used to talk about magic that he had never heard of before, but they were all magic that was known to have been used by Archmages during the founding era, and in particular, his remarks about 'Space-Linking,' a magic exclusive to Luma, surprised many. This must be why the investigators recorded that he claimed to be an Archmage The investigators at the time seemed to have guessed that the wizard's head had gone blank while he was still breathing (this is how he was described as dead). They used various magics under the pretext of restoring their comrade's memories It is not known exactly, but it seems that several terrible magics that cannot be used now were used. Despite this, the investigators were ultimately unable to find out how the person could have come back to life after death The 'investigation' was concluded after about half a year. That was probably the last time the wizard who had been revived was alive. In the end, the wizards concluded the investigation report by stating that his memories could not be fixed. However, in a personal letter written by a wizard who had investigated the wizard to a friend who became the owner of the Pearl Tower more than 10 years later, there is this sentence: "It's strange, When I think about Mizere, I think that what he was saying might have been true. Is it because it wouldn't be strange if the world were to end soon? If what he said was true, what would another Mizere have done before Mizere? Should we have believed in Mizere and helped him?" The letter's recipient's response was that the world was in disarray these days, so he must be feeling uneasy and should drink and rest. After that, this incident was not mentioned again in the Pearl Tower. However, if it was truly the "Archmage's Blessing" as it was handed down in a certain magic school sect, did the wizard who received the blessing realize something about this world? What did he wish for? Was there another wizard who died and came back to life before? It was an interesting fact that piqued the curiosity of the wizards, but it is now something that cannot be answered (Chapter 1261)

A similar thing happened to Yuder's grandpa who was implied to have died but he miraculously came back to life and saved Yuder and continued to care for Yuder since then.

Since the accident Yuder's grandpa has had weird behaviors such as changed handwriting, jumbled memory, etc similar to the previous case of the "Archmage's Blessing." Kanna even read via his belongings:

“Just like you said, Yuder, it’s someone else. Definitely.” That’s it. “I read someone who is in pain and confusion, who doesn’t remember who they are.” (Chapter 1253)

And notably Yuder remembers his grandpa was always convinced he would do something great. Kishiar thinks it's because Luma may have been able to see into the future and know Yuder would become a powerful awakener - to the point where he specifically prevented Yuder from being a wizard in case that interfered with his awakening:

“Melah Cantinto originally had an excellent eye for magical power. The Royal Magician’s Office selected him based on that ability alone. If that eye had been intact ‘in any situation,’ wouldn’t he have been able to recognize at least one of your potentials as soon as he saw it?” So, perhaps he might have avoided contact with the outside world because he had discovered the extraordinary magical powers that Yuder possessed? Yuder felt quite shocked. It is said that magical powers are almost innate. If there were a wizard around the child who was born, he would be able to immediately see the possibility, but such wizards are not common. Even wizards have different capabilities, so they need to have good eyes to know more clearly, so they needed a certain amount of skill to detect this. However, the grandfather who raised Yuder when he was a baby had this level of eyesight from the beginning. It is said that he never used magic after the acident until he died , but did he really lose all his abilities? If, as Kishiar said, his grandfather's Melah Cantinto's abilities were still intact after the accident, he would have certainly noticed Yuder's magical powers. If that were the case, then it means that he did not tell anyone even though he found out. What is this? It's like... 'It's like he was trying to block my path to becoming a wizard.'

(chapter 1264)

In the end Kishiar concludes:

“As we already know, the Archmage Luma was worried about the disasters that would come repeatedly in the future. In order to prevent that, he tried to find a way to leave a warning that would not be erased for future generations. If the Archmage’s Blessing was part of that method, and if it was true that your grandfather appeared as a result, then so be it.” Kishiar’s voice continued. Yuder couldn’t take his eyes off of the voice as if he was being sucked in. “In the end, he may have accomplished what he wanted. He saved the young hero, who was given new powers like the magic of the old days, and protected him from other dangers until he became an adult.” [...] “I just had a thought. If the Great Wizard Luma tried to break free of the constraints of time and space to warn and help future generations, what would he have done when the magic succeeded?” “…….” “He didn’t try to save the world again himself. That’s clear even from the journal. Those who received the Archmage’s Blessing may have recovered from death, but they didn’t gain any strength. So who would he have found, and how would he have tried to help them?” “…….” “We heard that your grandfather once said that his grandson would become a great person. If that was a passing remark because he already knew your potential, then it wouldn’t be wrong to guess that the reason he raised you there was based on the ‘help for future generations’ that I just mentioned.” Kishiar glanced at the paper that Yuder was holding. “We don’t know if he already knew the information about the future or not. However, even someone who doesn’t remember could judge how chaotic and dangerous the present era is by looking at the way the world is going.” It’s not a good world for a child with so much potential to grow up alone. A faint bitterness appeared in his voice and then disappeared. “If you think about it, Grand Wizard Luma lived through the first time wizards appeared in the world. Who else would know better than him what happens when the world is about to end and when a new power is born? He himself was born as a new wizard hero who will prevent the end.”

(Chapter 1265)

So basically Luma took care of Yuder so that he would later save the world, and possibly implanted an order to do so. It wasn't completely to use Yuder as a world-saving tool though as Kanna has read from Melah's belongings that he loved Yuder. Similar to how Enon was also a tool to protect the walls but also loved and cared for. (I love the parallels they really are brothers lmao)

I figure the order is something similar to an oath that Yuder is bound by.

I really do hope we meet Luma again and find out more about it. I feel we definitely will get a flashback of Luma telling Yuder he needs to protect the world...

(also note i just used novelingua TL for ch 786 but the other TLs are mine based on MTL and consulting KR speaking friends who have never read turning so take it all w a grain of salt !!)

[cluelessgeometry]

OMG I had the same thought 💜

Post by @cluelessgeometry · 5 images

💬 2  🔁 3  ❤️ 25 · So, I'm chapter 1218 (that's one crazy thing to say) of Turning. And it's theory time ig So, Luma. Mel. Meluma? Yes, the

[thunderon]

first base is martyrdom. second base is raising the other from the dead. third base is eye contact

[chronicexhaustion]

That one chapter where Kishiar visited Yuders house

[cyrellinate]

👀

Tell me more pretty please? 🥺 (letters, asking from main)

👀👀👀 ok this is gonna be long but basically from my pov it's how 1tl kishiar's actions and intent do not exist in a vacuum and examining how it affects and the implications it brings on his relationship with yuder is a really interesting point that i just microwave over and over again. it's how it's easy to say that yes kishiar's intent wasn't at all to manipulate or power abuse yudrein and how it did come from a genuine yearning and love but it doesn't mean that the inherent power dynamic of commoner/royalty, subordinate/commander, 20/29 doesnt affect that relationship, that it doesnt fuck it up a lot too. 1tl kishiyu was not at all on equal terms lmao and i think that it's okay (and fun!) to put that into discussion when talking abt 1tl kishiar

CONTENT WARNING: Discussions of and allusions to sexual coercion, dubious consent, and nonconsent

DISCLAIMER: first of all, i want to say that i understand where the fandom's reluctance on discussing this and the discomfort around this topic comes from, esp for a beloved character like kishiar. it can feel like condemnation, because a lot of people for some reason think that liking a character means endorsing everything that they do. however, i do believe that there is merit in discussing this aspect to their relationship as it not only provides depth from a narrative standpoint but also that engaging with fictional media with awareness of what it can entail is an important mindset to have, and that it shouldn't always have to reflect on what your personal beliefs are. saying this just in case, but this post is not made to condemn kishiar as a character nor anyone liking him (if you know me im like Big Kishiar Fan guy here) nor will i appreciate anyone using this post in that way. please be aware of your own comfort levels.

ramble ahead >>

in your (letters) og post, you brought up the dubious consent nature of 1tl kishiyu, and i agree! it's interesting because i agree that kishiar is not at all someone who'd force himself onto another (ESPECIALLY yuder) if the other had said no, but that's the catch. on top of their power gap, we don't know how and in what state yudrein had agreed to the whole fuckbuddies thing, and frankly it's kinda hard to imagine he was enthusiastic about it considering the Incident. one would argue that yuder isn't one to bow down on nobility and would've outwardly refused if he Truly didn't want to, but I beg to differ, and I come bringing evidences. Perhaps if it was other nobles, but kishiar is evidently different in context, and we HAVE actually seen 1tl yuder being reluctant to talk back to kishiar (chap 540):

both yuder and yudrein had also always subconsciously held kishiar in a pedestal. that's why even if yuder had outwardly said yes to the whole fuckbuddies thing, i would argue that, at least from our current information, it didn't seem like an enthusiastic or healthy one to warrant saying that it was perfectly consensual. ntm the flashback scene of the fuckbuddies proposition, which while not elaborated in the novel, the manhwa made it look like it was made not long after the incident (novel 37 and manhwa 25)

which add onto the dubious pile because yuder didn't seem like he was in the position to clearly think about it, had he agreed at that moment. and i would even argue that even after that too, considering he never realized his feelings for kishiar.

yuder's impression of the fuckbuddies situationship was also never good, even after he had gotten together with kishiar 2tl. even if he did had feelings for kishiar that he didn't know of, i think it shouldn't negate the bad experience either. it'd make the dynamic of 1tl kishiyu more interesting imo with the dubious angle on top of its already tragic nature. the fact that 2tl yuder got a sense of liberty over having a semblance of choice over his sexual activities also say a lot about the unhealthy nature of 1tl kishiyu, me thinks (ch 459)

so in conclusion my take on the fuckbuddies consent situation is that it was dubious as hell. even if yudrein had secretly liked it and yearned for kishiar's affections, i still think that it doesn't at all negate the dubious nature of it, plus the power imbalance it sits on really doesn't help. sure one can argue that expression of consent in writing can be dynamic (like, narratively speaking, sometimes having that scene of a healthy verbal discussions of consent in smut can break the flow of smexy and come off as therapytalk), but considering circumstancial evidence i really do find it hard to believe that yuder would be enthusiastic about this arrangement.

next, abt the power dynamics. i've already said it but there IS inherently a power gap with 1tl kishiyu, multiple ones in fact (age gap, status gap, mentor/student, subordinate/boss) that it really is such a cherry on top to the already noncommunicative nature of 1tl kishiyu. taking from letters' og post abt it too, kishiar was also the sole source of information and mentorship yudrein received, in which information that flows is controlled by kishiar. kishiar has power over yudrein in a lot of ways, and whether kishiar truly realizes the full scope of that or not is tbh anyone's guess. and kishiar was absolutely using yudrein for his own goals, was aware of it, felt guilty of it, and continued to do it (hence the stone pieces scene). he felt fit to entrust yudrein with a huge responsibility despite their mutual noncon tragedy. they were never on equal grounds, and power imbalance is like toxic relationship 101.

and here comes my favorite part: Kishiar, specifically. because this all looks bad on paper, but we know kishiar. we know that he never intended any malicious intent and that it all rooted on desperation and love, plus his own spiraling mental health. and my take is that both of these can coexist and is also simultaenously the cause of it. this is why i said kishiar's intent and actions do not exist in a vacuum, because said actions still bore consequences despite his intent. it's Tragedy in the way that he held so much love and yearning, but in his quest to quench it he had exerted power and hurt over the very person he loved with all his being. the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and good intentions alone won't undo the harm it causes. this is exactly the point that gets me so crazy abt 1tl kishiar because??? wow his fuckbuddy situationship (that HE started) is dubious as fuck and his power imbalance (which, in kuyu's qna where kuyu said 1tl kishiar was very aware of the age gap, id assume hed know too to some extent) is dubious as fuck and hes being intentionally cruel too a lot of times, damaging yuder's sense of self-worth thoroughly and irreversibly changed him while also simulatenously holding such deep and painfully yearnful love. his extreme self-awareness and guilt about it too is so deliciously gutwrenching for me, like fuckk i eat that up so good. i speculate too that another reason why he never revealed his love overtly other than the fact that he's dying is that hed think it rlly would be insulting. imagine if your whole life got uprooted and youre being pushed and pulled around (heh) by your superior seemingly on a whim, then you were told that it was done out of love. i'd be on the news. maybe thats why 1tl kishiar never bothered with apologies either; because he thinks that it couldn't and shouldn't be forgiven, even if he desperately wants to. 1tl kishiar is contradictory especially with his genuine love and intentional cruelty. and it's exactly that side of him that scared 2tl kishiar the most (one of it, tbf) when it comes to facing the white gloves, because kishiar is self-aware and he's made fully aware that he has the capabilities of all that. that's why i truly do find takes on kishiar in regarding to the power he holds to be real interesting. ive seen a post here somewhere too pointing out that kishiar's way of playing and manipulating with people can be terrifying, because it depends on who he deems it to be deserving or not. kishiar is not malicious in nature, but perhaps its that intentionality paired with his proficiency in influencing people when he deems it necessary enough that can be scary when dealing with him.

AND NOW WE'RE BACK TO YUDER because character agency is very important here too and it's also what cements kishiyu as Very Insane to me. i've listed down the dubious nature of 1tl kishiyu's relationship, and yuder would have PLENTY of reasons to truly resent kishiar. it would be VERY valid of yuder too if he were to not accept kishiar back in his life, because despite all the reasons and love and yearning, the harm is still done, and kishiar is painfully aware of this too. but he did. yuder accepted kishiar again and even loves him even deeper. he chose to look forward despite all the trauma and hurt and embraced kishiar again, chose to understand him deeper still despite everything. this is why kishiar is so reverent almost to the point of worship. this is why kishiar felt like as if yuder was his god who gave him everything. because in his view, he really did. yuder gave kishiar everything kishiar had ever yearned for despite literally everything that happened. this is why i and you all do not condemn kishiar for what he did; because yuder didn't. that's why i think it's important to acknowledge and discuss the true scope of problems in 1tl kishiyu because it really does make yuder's growth and decision regarding his relationship with kishiar even more meaningful. that's why too i really need yuder himself to also acknowledge that instead of automatically thinking that it's his fault for not understanding 1tl kishiar enough or the like :((

so tldr, i think the dubious nature of 1tl kishiyu is important because it makes 2tl kishiyu even more meaningful and Insane (and because i feed off this kind of angst So good)

[yudrein-aile]

LOVE LOVE LOVE THIS!! Will add from chapter 926, a passage that has haunted me:

The hands that would silently retreat as if even a lingering gaze was too much to bear.

Yuder had once suspected that the man, being of noble birth, wore gloves because he disliked touching a commoner like Yuder. It was common for nobles to mix with commoner concubines without fully undressing, revealing only parts of their bodies.

Even though the man must have known of Yuder's suspicions, he never explained, leading Yuder to believe it was the truth.

During those numerous nights, Yuder experienced fleeting yet profound misery. With each physical response of pleasure, an inexplicable, clumsy hope grew inside him, one that he couldn't eradicate. The wounds to his pride, stained anew each time that indescribable thing shattered. The realization on those miserable days that the man behind him was the only chest he could lean on and rely upon. Each time, the sprouts of his withering emotions dried up.

Like this is also an incredibly horrific description. Like Yuder at one point seemingly was under the impression that he is, essentially if I'm allowed to exaggerate a little, only slightly more convenient than a sex worker. Someone to fool around with, but not even a fuck buddy in the positive sense of mutual release, more like someone starving for affection and being utilized instead.

[cyrellinate]

AMAZING addition ourgfhgfh because even with the consent issues aside, this physical relationship is just genuinely so miserable for yuder that its only takeaway is the physical pleasure. literally big part of why his sense of self-worth is so fucked up. adding too the quote on the top of my Diabolical Kishiar Lines ranking (chp 400)

intentional cruelty at play again because wow way to convey that their relationship is practically meaningless. comes as he pleases, fucking yuder until unconsciousness, leaving a cold side of the bed for yuder to wake up to, making yuder think that he's only worth a bedwarmer, only to insinuate that their relationship isn't even a grain worth to him.

in kishiar's defense the gloves wasn't part of that cruelty because of his genuine issues with it but what IS cruelty is not communicating abt it!!! 1tl kishiyu is not miscommunication its kishiar deliberately shutting down any form of honest and personal communications!!! all while he keeps fucking yuder until he passes out irregularly. like my guy you know this looks real bad on you right.

[yudrein-aile]

all of this yes! And I find it particularly interesting because it isn't as though Kishiar is unaware of such behavior? In 460 we have

Discerning the sexual desire directed toward him had been such a frequent experience for Kishiar that it was difficult to keep count. Many nobles had looked down upon him as a foolish and dissolute scion of a soon-to-be-extinct imperial family. They treated him as if he were a perishable fruit that must be consumed before it rots away.

Of course, Kishiar was well aware that the world didn't only consist of such sticky desires, and that there was no need to be overly concerned about them. But knowing and feeling are two different things.

Like he has been looked at and treated as a sex object, so I find it fascinating that he is apparently mentally so down at rock bottom - he's dying again, he watched his brother die and his SIL potentially be murdered without being and to stop it - that he still treats Yuder in a way that gives away the exact feeling once directed at him

[cluelessgeometry]

But then is it really only the fact that Kishiar isn't dying in 2nd tl that makes him so much more different and open about his feelings? Yes, some of the causes of the power imbalance have disappeared (less "mental" age gap, Yuder being recognized as a nobility and him being definitely more powerful and all his achievements). But fundamentally, it's still there. So what really makes 1st and 2nd tl Kishiar so different?

This discussion is so important to me cause I love Kishiar with all my heart but yes, the power imbalance between them in 1st tl is something that always made me uncomfortable but now I finally have the words for it 💜

[milkbreadtoast]

Not to pit 2 queens against each other, there's no point in this poll at all, but just for funsies...🫣🤭

Who did the homoerotic choking scene better

joongdok (orv)

HJYJ (msch)

Voting ended onJul 29, 2025

(edit: added more pics to refresh on the scenes😮‍💨)

bonus:

(can they stop actually... 😭😭😭 ENOUGH-

[sclassreader]

Gonna be toxic because I know for a fact if ORV wins it’s out of popularity and not homoeroticism. Notice how there’s at least three different scenes of HJYJ from My S-Class Hunters choking, but there’s only one from ORV. You can’t even say quality over quantity because look at them. Look. That blond guy WANTS that twink. “But Yoo Joonghyuk wants Kim Dokja too!” I know that guy’s Gay Yearner Pro Max, but we’re talking about homoeroticism, not homosadness. Vote for HJYJ. Whatever they’re doing right now I guarantee you it’s 100x worse in the novel.

[gobwinning]

"i know [yoo joonghyuk] is gay yearner pro max, but we're talking about homoeroticism, not homosadness." 😭😭😭

this is true because when i was reading the orv light novel i had to stop myself from crawling into my car and veering off the highway at 4951mph, and i when i was reading the msch light novel i had to stop myself from checking if i was accidentally reading fanfiction for the 1225th time.

[ddream1010]

[cluelessgeometry]

I'm reading the tyrant wants to be good on webtoon (waiting for more turning chapters to pile up but with the hiatus.. anyway) and as someone who grew up abused by my mother, I relate to Dorothy so much! The "My parents don't love me => I'm not lovable => I must be a bad kid => I'm rotten to my core => let's do everything to appear good => developing a strong sense of justice / fairness and obsessing over what it means to be a good person / daughter / friend / etc... => but does it really matter since I'm still evil inside and doomed to hell*" mentality is explored in really deep and wonderful ways through Dorothy, Ethan and Ray (i cried like a baby last night because of these three). It's been a while since I've had such a deep rofan read ^^

Ethan in particular is interesting ^^ You can't hate him despite his red flag-ish behavior because he's still a kid (for now) and was dealed such shitty hand in life! Dorothy was also a real tyrant in her past life. I keep trying to tell my self "she couldn't be thaaaaat bad" and expecting the author to tone down her cruelty but she was selfish and blinded by her greed and even though she was sometimes regretful (crying when she killed Ray for example) she never stopped to think how it was affecting the people around her. I want to say that for someone who never had anyone think of her, that's to be expected but still. She was always chasing after something (her shitty father's love, recognition and acknowledgement from everyone around her, Theon's love) that it's only when she stopped running could she reflect on her behavior and really change. But it was all too late. I know Ethan and her are end game so I'm really curious how their relationship will develop and if they'll ever be good together and for each other. Cause I don't understand Ethan's abandoning Dorothy in her past life at all. He loved her to the point of obsession and I can get behind the "if I can't have you, no-one can" agenda (in understanding it, not condoning it) but i imagine he would try to lock her up instead of letting her die. Unless... that magical rock has to do something with her reincarnation?

The siblings' relationship is so interesting too. Dorothy is inflexible in her rejection of Ray, despite not hating him (let's be honest, she doesn't really) and he's inflexible in trying to shower her with love and affection. And she can't accept it. Not only because she killed him in her past life (she killed her knight too and he's like a parental / big brother figure for her in this life) but because he loves her but can't understand his privileges (going to school or having meals with their sperm donor just because he has light power) and how it's unfair for her. Okay, he's a kid too and he's a dummy (said affectionately) so he probably can't do much but he's not even *aware*. And yeah Dorothy could talk and tell him but again she's emotionally constipated and too proud to show any weakness so I get it.

Anyway turns out i has a loooooot to say about this after all ^^ it's a good read =]

* yeah being abused wasn't enough, I had a sprinkle of religious trauma with my beatings too haha

[drawulan]

How it ended in the first game

[sorasan000]

I think with this and that being revealed about Yuder lately, we need to revisit this staff:

While Kishiar, Yuder, and Nathan were rummaging through the secret warehouse in Tainu, Yuder discovered the very magic stone that had been part of the staff that was granted to Yudrein in the previous life. From there we learned that magic stones are not used in a way that magic tools are. They hold magic but they are unrefined, meaning that anybody who isn't a mage likely can't use them. For the Commander of the organization made up of Awakeners, a man who was an Awakener himself, it was useless to him in everything but a symbolic reminder of what he was willing to sacrifice to protect them.

As it turns out, Yuder might have had an affinity for magic all that time. It also stayed by him nearly constantly for a decade. Do we know what kind of magic was stored in it, exactly? We don't even know where it came from.

I don't have any concrete guesses about it right now. I'm just wondering if it perhaps had anything at all to do with how powerful he was, how he wielded his power, and if it had anything to do with his regression.

[annelucia]

Moments in novel I want to read again:

60- "beast trying to make itself small"

63-Kiolle! Yuder pretending to not know him

66-Meet Enon

95- Kiolle! contract with Yuder

100- Devran and Gakane get to know about Yuder's hand

101-healing Yuder's hand(faints after)

119- Parade

122- Meet Revlin

128- Meet Lusan

134- Rescue from Apeto

152- Kiolle! helping Yuder with Apeto's second son murder

154- manifesting as Omega

162- Kishiar recalls how Yuder looked like during manifestation(fear)

172- Meet Ejain

175- "you are the only one who can command me"

179- Red Stone's energy transfering

182--Nathan is suspicious of Yuder, Alik becomes awakened

187- "make him mine"

194- Yuder and Kishiar outing

200- first kiss

208- Yuder smilling bc Revlin compliments Kishiar( Apeto trial)

211- Yuder&Nathan talks abot Kishiar

222- find 10 ways to clean ashes with your power

224- Kishiar visits Yuder's room, Yuder's uses Red Stone

230- Yuder vs Kiolle (1st after oath)

238- meeting Ejain 2nd time, saves him

247- Ejain and Yuder have a talk about power

251- Yuder's smile melts heart of mage Lorna

258- Yuder's weakness

261- Yuder convinces Micalin to cooperate

264-Ejain's "be my friend", Yuder's left behind

267- Kishiar and Ejain talk about Yuder

276- Ejain awakening

283- Penpen vs Yuder

285- aftermath of fight

299- Connection's first appearance

296- Kishiar feeding Yuder

300- Yuder initiating kiss

301- Yuder's tells everyone of his weakness

307- Yuder's and Kishiar night stroll forest date

310- Yuder's healing from venom

317- Kishiat meet Nahan

321- Yuder's no. 1

326- Smut but not all the way

335- Enon isn't human

342- Elle!

350- Yuder intimidates commander in prison

362- Yuder's going to prison

374- Kishiar kisses back of Yuder's hand

375- Shuden, Hellem

384- "did you chew on reaper's grass" swollen lips

385- Kiolle(just existing)

396- Nathan being worried about Yuder

397- Yuder's taking Enon's experimantal pill to fight southeners

401- Kishiar's death flashback

417- Nathan vs Nahan

419- Kishiar trolling nobles

422- Yuder jumping into Kishiar's embrace

430- 1st Duke Tain's laboratory

434- Enon- hyung !

438- Kanna&Yuder talk about Yuder's fear

443- Enon tells Kishiar about himself

445- "Yudrain" and connection talk

453- Kanna knows!

458- Yuder's confession, Kishiar blushing

460- Smut

467- Kishiar's emperor sword mark

470- Yuder, Kishiar& Emperor meal

480- Kiolle(meeting in tailor shop)

486- learning to dance

494- Gakane worring about Yuder's dance

495- Yuder heals Hosanna

499- Dance

501- Wine gift

507- Yuder&Gakane dance/ Gakane's past

513- Drunk Yuder

517- Kanna talks with Yuder about why she's avoiding him

521- Yuder, Kishiar & Empress meal

534- Examining Emperor

539- Yuder&Kishiar use connection forcefully

550- Emperor's healing

560- Jealous Kishiar

563- Kishiar dreams of Yuder's death

566- Yuder knows that Kanna knows!

567- Yuder&Nathan talks about Kishiar

569- Yuder tells Kishiar truth

574- Kishiar cries after Yuder tells him truth

579- " only one who can command me"/ Imperial family dinner

586- Kiolle!( talks with Yuder)

590- Kishiar interogates Hosanna

592- Emperor visits Cavalry

600- East& West 2nd Cabvalry recruitment

601- Yuder&Nathan talks about Kishiar

604- Gloe

606- Yuder tells Kishiar that he killed him

609- Prisoner's second gender manifestation accident

613- Yuder's heat(past and present life)

622- Commander inauguration

630- Marin

640- First Duke Tain's monster research

647- Southern's Cavalry base

655- Undercover mission(Akit, Yudrain)

662-Elpkins

663- Reneve

709- Yuder and Nathan on mission together

713- Yuder pissed off bc southener crushed his candies

718- Nathan about Kishiar and Yuder's relationship

728- First cracks in the south

[anrisimps]

HOLY SHIT, THESE TWO ARE GOING TO BE THE DEATH OF ME

AND IF THIS WASNT ENOUGH

"YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN COMMAND ME ,COMMANDER"