Legends EU

Co-owned SW discourse blog

[aurora1040]

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[eu-legends]

This is the same blog that made our banner and icon! - mod purple

[thesecondbatgirl]

Today in Star Wars fanon vs canon: Fanon: Clone troopers were decommissioned for basically anything Canon: There is literally a space station hospital for clone troopers and as far as I am aware the only sent back to Kamino thing is in the case of Tup and his malfunctioning chip Fanon: Proper procedures were not followed for Obi-Wan resulting in his being sent to Bandomeer/nobody else was aware he was being sent to Bandomeer/it was a manipulation by Yoda who deliberately sent both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon there Canon: Obi-Wan’s crechemaster gave him the assignment, Obi-Wan was told before he was sent that he would be sent to the agricorps if he didn’t find a master. Both Mace and Yoda were aware of where Obi-Wan was being sent and *Yoda* argued that Obi-Wan should have more time/not be sent away. Mace argued against it. (This is frankly the worst portrayal of Mace and I am still mad about it.) Also Qui-Gon was sent to Bandommer on the request of the senate, so unless Yoda is manipulating the senate (and please, let’s not do “the secretive religion is secretly controlling the politicians” thing again) it was not a manipulation on Yoda’s part. Fanon: Jedi are repressed and never acknowledge feelings Canon: “Stretch out with your feelings, Luke.” Literally. The first freaking lesson that Obi-Wan gives Luke. Fanon: Jedi are all touched starved and never hug Canon: Do I need to bring back the Obi-Wan hugs Dex gif? I mean I will because Obi-Wan clearly gives excellent hugs Fanon: The Jedi attacked the Mandos on Galidraan unprovoked Canon:

Fanon: Jango cared about the clones Canon:

Listen if you want to use fanon go ahead, just… please stop using it in arguments to “prove” the Jedi are bad and maybe acknowledge that its fanon in your fics, thank you. I am so tired of things that are tagged canon compliant and then use the Bandomeer argument or the Galidraan one.

[the-cybersmith]

@eu-legends this might be of interest to you?

[eu-legends]

1. Not entirely false but also not entirely true that's going by legends canon. Clones who don't follow orders were basically executed or put in comas for example Dooku told Jango to hunt a rogue clone because he wanted a life outside kamino.

2. True it was the will of the Force though it's not entirely great either for any would be parent.

3. Eh mix of the two your not allowed to Love or be attached to anyone and no I don't mean mean unhealthy attachments. I mean can't love someone or it'll be selfish. Jedi can sleep with whoever they want but not love them. This was the case for a lot of stuff even critized by Luke at one point

4. That's completely fanon the no hugs that fair but as George once said Jedi are not celibate just not attachment.

5. Eh Jedi were not even supposed to be there the mandalorians we're doing their thing and not killing anyone that wasn't involved or in death watch. And were about to be arrested for crimes they did not commit.

6. That's Disney canon yet at the same time legends is not much better. The problem is that their is a bit of wackiness with Jango Fett. In Legends he is a loving father to Boba who deeply cared about him and trained him and also trained multiple arc troopers to the point he prioritized his orders over even the Jedi if I remember correctly. It's a bit more complicated than he not liking them or caring about them. For example Jango after being sold to slavery changed quite a bit from his experiences and was no longer leading the mandalorians because he was so broken so that might have played a factor. Yet at the same time if he did not care so much why live in kamino, train multiple arc troopers,spend a lot of time in it with his son when he has plenty of money to go elsewhere etc. I can't say Jango loved his clones but I also can't say he hated them or did not care about them.

I understand where you are coming from and agreed the Jedi aren't bad but your framing it incorrectly in some ways. For example that's not the only cases for anti Jedi stuff I personally want to bring up the Kaleesh and Huk war that sure as hell was not great for the Jedi. Not only was it nearly unjustifiable due to them fighting for the slavers team they also were the ones who pushed back the Kaleesh back into the homeworld but also allowed the Senate to screw over the planet by basically having to starve, poverty and defenseless and arguably turn a blind eye as the Huk abused them again. That is one thing that makes the Jedi a little questionable for such a huge injustice. And I won't even get into the whole baby being taken without the mother's consent. Before anyone cries out "but that's Legends" don't care as far as I am aware that's closer to whatever Disney's producing. To be clear this is not an attack on Anakin, Obi-wan, Qui-gon, Plo or even Mace it's just in general and in a way against Yoda because he was most likely in charge of these situations - A

[eu-legends]

Hot take Anyone who argues Darth Vader is stronger than Anakin either has not seen the films in a long time or inflates Vader's opinion on himself. Darth Vader has not done anything to ever prove he is the superior combatant to his former self not in his feats or accolades. Specifically because Vader is only stated to be stronger in the dark side which is just like me saying Dooku is stronger than Anakin in the dark side or Asajj Ventress is stronger in the dark side. It doesn't really mean much because Anakin's raw power and light side abilities vastly outstrip the dark side. Anyone who disagrees can fight me on it-A

[eu-legends]

Its not FTL speed if its foresight

It is NOT faster than light speed if it is foresight.

~ Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

For context people constantly mention that about Jedi and purple has had it- Mod A

[eu-legends]

Its not FTL speed if its foresight

It is NOT faster than light speed if it is foresight.

~ Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

Filoni was a disney agent from the start, change my mind

-Purple

[the-cybersmith]

Oh, I see, you are paranoid.

Filoni had been a Star Wars enthusiast for years befor George Lucas asked him to work for Lucasfilm. He’d previously worked on many animated properties, particularly for Nickelodeon.

You’re engaging in absolutely baseless speculation here, and you are talking about an actual human being. We aren’t just discussing art, or disagreeing over the themes of a piece of fiction, that’s a real person you’ve just accused of having an ulterior motive.

[eu-legends]

1. Yeah I think purple went a little overboard with that claim lol

2. I think I remember I did tell she started off too strong. I definitely don’t think that he was but I kind of feel a bit frustrated when he gets a bit too much attention. Or Disney plays favoritism to his work compared to the movies. If you like I can give you a few examples if you want to.

-A

Lol, yes, i worded it strongly. That was because it was the first discourse post and I wanted to make it absolutely clear that we wanted to have active discourse interaction.

That said, I am fully aware that Filoni is a human person. But so is George Lucas, and Star Wars is his creation. He authored it and allowed us into his universe. And what I say is not baseless, I just deliberately left it open ended to recieve engagement.

Also, i am HORRIBLE at finding the sources, which is why Mod A is here. He knows SW legends and disney canon inside and out and is a master at finding quotes, clips, etc. Im just good at writing hot takes and doing deep dives into the psychological aspects of SW.

What I can say is that I find it incredibly fishy that Filoni got on the TCW project first, undermining a LOT of Legends Canon behind Lucas’ back, and then when Lucas signed over his child to Disney, they immediately kick Lucas out of the loop but keep Filoni on board who only further violated Legends canon- and now he has how many shows he is directing for Disney? Im sorry, but if it werent for the undermining of Lucas, Disney would never had a foothold to buy Lucas Films in the first place.

~ Mod Purple

[the-cybersmith]

>a LOT of Legends Canon behind Lucas’ back Here is where I take issue. For one thing, George Lucas watched TCW. If he didn’t like what was done in season 2, he could have cancelled season 3. We’ll never know exactly how much he directly intervened at a creative level, but we do know that he elected to keep funding six seasons of content. That doesn’t really seem to match with “going behind his back”. I would also point out that a lot of the legends EU wasn’t really treated as sacred by George Lucas himself. For one thing, the Mon Calamari and the Quarren? According to books published between ROTJ and the Prequels, they weren’t discovered until the Empire. They literally lived in isolation from the galaxy, without spaceflight, until the Empire found their world. Then George Lucas puts a Mon Calamari in a background scene of the prequels… just because he wanted to. That forced some rewrites to legends. What Disney did was cordon Legends off, and say “what we do in canon doesn’t affect this”. Essentially, they reserved the right to the same creative freedom George Lucas had, but made sure that they wouldn’t damage Legends by exercising it. Far from “violat[ing] Legends”, the Canon/Legends split preserved it. It ensured that Legends COULDN’T be violated, because the flow of influence was almost totally one-way. Legends could influence Canon, but Canon (outside of a few things like cross-hilt lightsabres being added to the Old Republic period) wouldn’t influence Legends. I also don’t think your last statement holds up: > if it werent for the undermining of Lucas, Disney would never had a foothold to buy Lucas Films in the first place Lucas wasn’t undermined, and they didn’t have a “foothold”. Their acquisition was never a hostile takeover, George Lucas sold the franchise to them. We can debate his reasons for doing so, but I really don’t think there’s any evidence that Filoni’s work was part of his decision to sell. Yes, Filoni stayed on… as did many other creatives, like Doug Chiang and John Williams. Were they undermining George Lucas for the benefit of Disney?

[eu-legends]

1. True but he also could have just been in a state of “All right all right due it” not really caring much. For example he acted way more strict with everything else up until TCW.

2. Well it’s complicated there was a lot things that were different and weren’t as consistent in legends before the prequels. For example Timothy Zhan wrote the clone wars was a clone conspiracy even though I am pretty sure he wasn’t allowed to talk about it. There is also examples of George supporting the EU I could bring up examples where George went out of his way to do things and make sure things that he liked stayed and what he didn’t like he removed.

3. Except when they grabbed multiple uninspired ideas from legends even grab legends exclusive characters.

4. Actually the cross guard existed before Disney canon. Also except for the part that they kept tcw in both timelines for some reason. Which contradicts some of the EU and changed so many characters they are unrecognizable which is shown multiple times by videos of people talking about how different they are.

5. I wouldn’t quite agree with what purple but it’s kind of frustrating TCW is used more of a main source over the prequel movies. I could name dozens of examples of TCW affecting Disney much more than the prequels. For example Anakin is 99% TCW or Vader while his prequel self is rarely shown besides flashbacks I could show a lot of examples of his version of Anakin being prioritized such as whenever the clone wars is shown. Not to mention Dave Filoni was able to do season 7 of the clone wars, had 4 seasons for star wars Rebels, his maul storyline was adapted to a comic book, had Ahsoka’s storyline adapted to a novel, had a Quinlan Vos novel, has bad batch season 1 and 2, the mandalorian he was able to direct a few episodes, has tales of the Jedi coming up and probably more. Not really fair treatment on how much he does.

-A

[the-cybersmith]

1: If he was in such a state, and had essentially become apathetic (I don’t know if there is any specific evidence for this)… that in no way reflects badly upon Filoni. It’s utterly unreasonable to expect a creative to constrain himself to the hypothetical wishes of a man who no longer expressed those wishes. You can’t reasonably demand that someone follow the rules which hypothetically might be written if the rulemaker were interested in writing them. Even if George Lucas HAD entered an apathetic state, we really don’t know what he might have otherwise done. We can’t speculate about what someone we haven’t met MIGHT have done if his psychology had been vastly different. I will point out that he was funding TCW, most people aren’t apathetic about massive sums of money.

2: so George would sometimes infringe on/overwrite Legends, and sometimes he wouldn’t? The Disney Canon, by explicitly separating itself from Legends, makes sure to NEVER overwrite it. This means post-Purchase Lucasfilm is being more consistently fair to Legends than George Was, by putting it in its own protected bubble of continuity, which it won’t interfere with!

3: That seems somewhat tautological. By definition, if a character appears in both Legends and Canon… that character is not Legends-Exclusive. This goes back to my earlier point, the legends/canon split is one-way, and it is one-way IN FAVOUR OF LEGENDS. Legends stories, themes, and characters have a chance to affect canon, but it doesn’t happen the other way around! This deal isn’t a bad one for Legends, it enshrines the things it did, without killing off their potential to grow! The only thing Legends can’t do is CONSTRAIN canon.

4: the only source for that I can find are very different from the “vented” design of Kylo Ren. They kept TCW in both because TCW was already a part of Legends, way before Disney acquired it. Remember, the TCW film came out in 2008, YEARS before Disney even began discussing a purchase. It wasn’t a question of putting it into Legends, all except the seventh season were Legends before they had a chance to change it. Whether that’s right or wrong, it was a decision made pre-Disney.

5: If you want more Prequels Anakin, I would  REALLY recommend watching the Kenobi show. I don’t want to spoil it, but it very much is in the spirit of Prequels portrayal (CW for drug use, violence, and threats against a child).

Yes, Filoni has put in a lot of work for Lucasfilm. He’s also more tightly constrained. The Lucasfilm Story group has limited what he can do in a few occasions, and he also discusses with other writers (like Timothy Zahn) when writing for characters they made. Also, his characters are now being written, increasingly, by other people. He very well might NOT be the next person to write for Ezra, a character he created. He is bound by the same rules and restrictions as other creatives. Part of this is that he’s a full-time Lucasfilm employee. Unlike many of the other creatives, he isn’t normally going off to work on projects outside of Lucasfilm. So yes, it makes sense  he has more total creative input than, say, Bryce Dallas Howard.

[eu-legends]

1. True but he also could have just been in a state of “All right, all right, do it!” not really caring much. For example, he acted way more strict with everything else up until TCW.

"So George would sometimes infringe on/overwrite Legends, and sometimes he wouldn’t? The Disney Canon, by explicitly separating itself from Legends, makes sure to NEVER overwrite it. This means post-Purchase Lucasfilm is being more consistently fair to Legends than George Was, by putting it in its own protected bubble of continuity, which it won’t interfere with!"

2. But it doesn't help because it's basically dead in the water and not really managing it or controlling it. No one has added to it besides one mmo and one comic that's it for the last 10 years. And TCW existing is also a big amount of damage to legends by being part of it instead of being separate which makes no sense considering they can change and remove everything but that.

3. Except when they rebranded them and acted like they're totally different. I don't see how legends getting some references is somehow good. Legends is not continuing almost at all since Disney bought it. What do you mean potential to grow? It didn't conclude at all so many stories were left unfinished before they could continue.

4. Still a cross guard without much of a difference. TCW could have been removed. Infact, a lot of people I know encouraged it being removed.

5. In a 6 episode miniseries where they retcon a lot... Cool

6. Oh yeah tightly constrained on a few occasions meanwhile Filoni's interpretation of characters are forever glorified by everything Disney for who no how long. Also, he discussed about characters he didn't make maybe a few times except when it's convenient like Grievous, Darth Bane,Asajj, Quinlan Vos etc. Also for them being written by other people they are mostly in character and are basically used as the clone wars version for example Maul is TCW all the way. Well everything you just said doesn't change his influence in Disney is gigantic and widespread everywhere.

-Mod A.

Initially, I was going to let Mod A answer this himself since he is much more equipped to refute with specific quotes and instances than I am, but I felt it was really important to bring up the Lengends Canon tier list. I think a lot of the confusion between Disney and Legends fans is that Im not sure if Disney's fans are aware that there is a canon heirarchy put in place to address any potential discrepancies within the EU.

Below is the canon heirarchy tier list that Legends fans regularly use.

The quote beneqth it is from 2001 expressing the SW franchise's goal to minimize discrepancies to whatever extent possible. That is around 7 years prior to the TCW that Filoni directed. Before Filoni's TCW, there was minimal conflict within the canon and, when it was conflicted, it was easy for EU fans to determine what was and was not canon based on this established tier list.

Filoni's TCW destroyed a sigNIFICANT amount of harmony that was in the established canon heirarchy in 2008, when his version of TCW came out.

This is including but not limited to characters that George Lucas either never wanted to be brought back to life (Maul), killing off characters he never wanted to die in the first place, involving character types he never wanted in the first place and then refusing to kill off the characters he permitted for only a temporary time period (Lucas did not initially want Anakin to have a Padawan, and then only accepted her on the condition of her being killed off....which didnt end up happening), and of course, wildly OOC depictions of fully established characters.

To explain more fully why EU fans do not agree with TCW nor the way Filoni handled the show im the first place, please take a look at this archive of quotes from many of those who had a major hand in creating various parts of the EU. It is quite a stark contrast to anything Filoni has said or done and is also showing a stark contrast in how much Lucas was involved with TCW vs the EU.

~Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

To be clear, there I'm interested to see what else you post here, even if I disagree. There are interesting discussions to be had about the different ways Legends and Canon handled specific topics. But I don't think it's true to say that Filoni or other Canon creatives are somehow acting in bad faith.

And we welcome that! We are a discourse blog and i personally tend to provide hot takes. No one is obligated to agree with either of us. In fact, Mod A. has made it a point more than once to mention that he doesnt even fully agree with me on some points (specifically about Filoni) and he's the co-owner of this blog.

Its good to have followers who dont always agree because thats how discussions open up and as long as we all remain civil, then the discourse will be enjoyable for everyone involved. We look forward to further interesting discussions with you and all of our followers 😁

~ Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

Filoni was a disney agent from the start, change my mind

-Purple

[the-cybersmith]

Oh, I see, you are paranoid.

Filoni had been a Star Wars enthusiast for years befor George Lucas asked him to work for Lucasfilm. He’d previously worked on many animated properties, particularly for Nickelodeon.

You’re engaging in absolutely baseless speculation here, and you are talking about an actual human being. We aren’t just discussing art, or disagreeing over the themes of a piece of fiction, that’s a real person you’ve just accused of having an ulterior motive.

[eu-legends]

1. Yeah I think purple went a little overboard with that claim lol

2. I think I remember I did tell she started off too strong. I definitely don’t think that he was but I kind of feel a bit frustrated when he gets a bit too much attention. Or Disney plays favoritism to his work compared to the movies. If you like I can give you a few examples if you want to.

-A

Lol, yes, i worded it strongly. That was because it was the first discourse post and I wanted to make it absolutely clear that we wanted to have active discourse interaction.

That said, I am fully aware that Filoni is a human person. But so is George Lucas, and Star Wars is his creation. He authored it and allowed us into his universe. And what I say is not baseless, I just deliberately left it open ended to recieve engagement.

Also, i am HORRIBLE at finding the sources, which is why Mod A is here. He knows SW legends and disney canon inside and out and is a master at finding quotes, clips, etc. Im just good at writing hot takes and doing deep dives into the psychological aspects of SW.

What I can say is that I find it incredibly fishy that Filoni got on the TCW project first, undermining a LOT of Legends Canon behind Lucas’ back, and then when Lucas signed over his child to Disney, they immediately kick Lucas out of the loop but keep Filoni on board who only further violated Legends canon- and now he has how many shows he is directing for Disney? Im sorry, but if it werent for the undermining of Lucas, Disney would never had a foothold to buy Lucas Films in the first place.

~ Mod Purple

[the-cybersmith]

>a LOT of Legends Canon behind Lucas’ back Here is where I take issue. For one thing, George Lucas watched TCW. If he didn’t like what was done in season 2, he could have cancelled season 3. We’ll never know exactly how much he directly intervened at a creative level, but we do know that he elected to keep funding six seasons of content. That doesn’t really seem to match with “going behind his back”. I would also point out that a lot of the legends EU wasn’t really treated as sacred by George Lucas himself. For one thing, the Mon Calamari and the Quarren? According to books published between ROTJ and the Prequels, they weren’t discovered until the Empire. They literally lived in isolation from the galaxy, without spaceflight, until the Empire found their world. Then George Lucas puts a Mon Calamari in a background scene of the prequels… just because he wanted to. That forced some rewrites to legends. What Disney did was cordon Legends off, and say “what we do in canon doesn’t affect this”. Essentially, they reserved the right to the same creative freedom George Lucas had, but made sure that they wouldn’t damage Legends by exercising it. Far from “violat[ing] Legends”, the Canon/Legends split preserved it. It ensured that Legends COULDN’T be violated, because the flow of influence was almost totally one-way. Legends could influence Canon, but Canon (outside of a few things like cross-hilt lightsabres being added to the Old Republic period) wouldn’t influence Legends. I also don’t think your last statement holds up: > if it werent for the undermining of Lucas, Disney would never had a foothold to buy Lucas Films in the first place Lucas wasn’t undermined, and they didn’t have a “foothold”. Their acquisition was never a hostile takeover, George Lucas sold the franchise to them. We can debate his reasons for doing so, but I really don’t think there’s any evidence that Filoni’s work was part of his decision to sell. Yes, Filoni stayed on… as did many other creatives, like Doug Chiang and John Williams. Were they undermining George Lucas for the benefit of Disney?

[eu-legends]

1. True but he also could have just been in a state of "All right all right due it" not really caring much. For example he acted way more strict with everything else up until TCW.

2. Well it's complicated there was a lot things that were different and weren't as consistent in legends before the prequels. For example Timothy Zhan wrote the clone wars was a clone conspiracy even though I am pretty sure he wasn't allowed to talk about it. There is also examples of George supporting the EU I could bring up examples where George went out of his way to do things and make sure things that he liked stayed and what he didn't like he removed.

3. Except when they grabbed multiple uninspired ideas from legends even grab legends exclusive characters.

4. Actually the cross guard existed before Disney canon. Also except for the part that they kept tcw in both timelines for some reason. Which contradicts some of the EU and changed so many characters they are unrecognizable which is shown multiple times by videos of people talking about how different they are.

5. I wouldn't quite agree with what purple but it's kind of frustrating TCW is used more of a main source over the prequel movies. I could name dozens of examples of TCW affecting Disney much more than the prequels. For example Anakin is 99% TCW or Vader while his prequel self is rarely shown besides flashbacks I could show a lot of examples of his version of Anakin being prioritized such as whenever the clone wars is shown. Not to mention Dave Filoni was able to do season 7 of the clone wars, had 4 seasons for star wars Rebels, his maul storyline was adapted to a comic book, had Ahsoka's storyline adapted to a novel, had a Quinlan Vos novel, has bad batch season 1 and 2, the mandalorian he was able to direct a few episodes, has tales of the Jedi coming up and probably more. Not really fair treatment on how much he does.

-A

[eu-legends]

What legends got RIGHT- and that TCW got wrong:

Clones.

Like. Dont even come at me if you dont know what the definition of the word clone even is. Clones are not twins. They aren't even IDENTICAL twins, they are CLONES.

With that bit out of the way, I would like to dive deeper into lore and WHY the change was a BAD IDEA.

Clones are manufactured in a lab.

This one isnt even lore. This is reality. All clones are lab grown. No, seriously. Thats what they are IRL.

Star Wars Legends Canon has been and always will be a SCI-FI film, based on REAL, ACTUAL SCIENCE. Because it was made by a science nerd, expanded on by science and sci-fi nerds. As such, one can reasonably assume that the resulting clones are ALSO lab grown.

...Which... they are. Its... its right there.... in the prequels...

Clones are canonically manufactured by Kaminoans. A species that SPECIALIZES in creating, not just clones, but specifically, clone ARMIES. These beings are not just using existing cloning technology we see in our science labs, they are in a sci-fi universe. They are leagues ahead of the existing science of the time. They are leading geneticists. They modify the clones they manufacture to a high degree in order to ensure absolute customer satisfaction.

If you are dealing with soldiers in war, dissent is not acceptable. Individuality is not approved. In fact, conformity and uniform and absolute obedience within the rank is not just expect, but DEMANDED with penalty of death. Thats just basic military function regardless of what country they fight for. This is BASIC KNOWLEDGE. And THESE are the kinds of products the Kaminoans are GUARANTEEING their customers. They are, in fact, guarunteeing a more reliable set of soldiers than can be gathered in any other circumstance precisely because these are CLONES who have been genetically modified to remove any form of dissent or disobedience whatsoever. They literally bred individuality OUT. That was literally the POINT.

Which is why when it came to arc troopers, where the Kaminoans were EXPERIMENTING with individuality for the sake of decision making and tactical advice in rare instances required, they had the arc troopers in COMAS and tried to REFUSE to allow anyone to wake them because they were TOO free thinking for the Kaminoan's product standards.

All of this aside, we also have the whole nature vs nurture argument that everyone just loves to throw out there to defend clone individuality. Which would be an excellent point..........if the nurture was different for every clone....... which they werent.... because they grew up in a lab.... by the same people.... being taught the same things.... by people with the same accent and vocabulary........

Basically, in scientific terms, they ARE the control group. NOTHING is varied.

So now lets go back to the fact of what clones are. It is an EXACT copy of the original. Which would be.... Jango Fett. Keep in mind, this lab isnt a sperm bank, its a clone manufacturer. They arent creating unique individuals, they are recreating the original and THEN modifying the genes to program out the natural impulses to do what they want so that they can be good little obedient soldiers. And then these modified copies of Jango Fett are TRAINED by Jango Fett himself. So every single one of these clones are gonna look, act, fight, and talk just like Jango Fett.... but without free will. And so when the CLONES begin to teach NEW clones that are ALSO exactly like them, once again, they just as well be learning from the original Jango Fett himself with preprogrammed loyalty- a loyalty that is programmed straight into their DNA sequence. Because if it wasnt.... the Kaminoans wouldnt sell the clones to anyone in the first place and we wouldnt have the Star Wars franchise as we know it today.

Now this is not to say that Clones are not individuals, because they are. Their unique experiences ON THE BATTLEFIELD, WITH THE JEDI AND OTHER SOLDIERS can and does impact the clone. This is where the NURTURE finally begins to make itself known.

But by the time the clones get to experience anything UNIQUE from the other clones, their personality is already hardwired and any variation is going to be minimal at most. And their voice and accent most CERTAINLY would not change anymore than you can expect a full grown New Yorker trying to speak like a southern gramma. It can be forced, but it wont stay that way for long.

Annd.... I think by now you can probably guess where Im gonna say TCW got it wrong.

Clones should not be recognizable outside of arc troopers versus regular clones....due to their armor. Clones would be uniformed. They will have the same taste because they are COPIES of JANGO FETT. They will sound exactly the same. TCW should not have even TOLD the voice actor which clone he was voicing. Maybe for script writers a specific word could be used to identify, but for the voice actor to do an actually convincing clone voice for the many clones OF JANGO FETT, he should not have even known how many clones he was scripting. For all he knew, it could have (should have) been just one clone throughout the entire series.

TCW completely ignored the GENETIC MODIFICATION that the clones went through that GUARUNTEED one outcome: obedient, reliable, efficient soldiers the republic could depend upon.

What's worse, is that TCW straight up ignores the very definition of the word clone and treats the clones as if they are twins instead. If the clones were more like twins, then they would have had to have been raised and trained by completely different people of completely different accents in completely different environments. And TCW doesnt justify the so called individuality of the CLONES with this kind of caveat whatsoever.

They also make the REGULAR clones far too individual and daring in voicing their own opinions. The Kaminoans would have never let that fly. They would have euthanized the clones and started over to get an absolutely perfect product production because, like it or not, thats what they are in Star Wars: A product for nations to buy for the sake of war. And yet, somehow, TCW thinks its completely fine and normal to have clones being capable of advancing rank. They CANT advance rank when free will and individual thinking IS MISSING FROM THEIR DNA. Like. Thats literally a selling feature. Filoni does know this........right.....?

And speaking of rank, lets return to the arc troopers, for a minute. These ARE special and unique, by design. Because Arc troopers are specially trained to be able to take on unique roles that regular clones cannot, and to be CAPABLE of making decision and giving advice- But even then, they ultimately have no free will aside from following orders. By DESIGN. Obedience and strict loyalty is STILL programmed genetically into them and once again, i would like to point out how the republic had to INSIST that the Kaminoans even SELL their experimental arc troopers.... because the Kaminoans still considered them TOO UNIQUE and therefore TOO HIGH A RISK to their reputation of being a reliable clone army manufacturer.

Arc troopers are SUPPOSED to be the smarter, quirkier, unique clones. But at the end of the day, EVEN WITH modified nurture to accommodate the unique roles arc troopers must fill, they are still COPIES OF JANGO FETT, TAUGHT BY JANGO FETT. Their differences are not gonna be that remarkable!

And yet-!! And yet, TCW ignores all of this and tries to claim it is SOMEHOW canon with the prequels.

Ok. Ok, lets talk about the other bantha in the room.

Order 66.

Before we even get started, lets go back to how real world militia units work.

If a soldier gets a command and fails to execute it, he is killed by whoever catches him refusing to do the order. This is standard procedure in every militia group in history. Ask any veteran in any nation and they will confirm this as fact.

What if the soldier's commanding officer is commiting treason and someone next on the ladder tells the soldier to execute his commanding officer? Again, standard procedure demands that the soldier kills the commanding officer or the soldier, too, will be killed for compliamce in a treasonous act.

THIS IS WHAT ORDER 66 IS AND ALWAYS WAS: A STANDARD FAIL SAFE MILITARY PROCEDURE THAT EVERY MILITARY GROUP HAS.

THIS is why order 66 was devestatingly effective in Legends. THIS is why legends didnt need any prior excuse for the clones to 'betray' the Jedi. Because acting on order 66 is an act of explicit loyalty to the republic by executing their treasonous commanding officers, the Jedi. The programming for such obedience ALREADY EXISTS IN THEIR DNA. The programming already exists in STANDARD MILITARY TRAINING. This is knowledge George Lucas expected his audience to come to the table with because this is STANDARD even in our world.

TCW spits in the face of anyone who has been in a militia group of any sort. TCW suggests that the clones and soldiers could never kill their jedi commanders unless they had a computer chip?!? hidden in their brain that SOMEHOW medical personel (especially JEDI medical personel) would just.......not notice? If they cant trust the clones to execute a basic fail safe miltary command for their nation, then they are not fit to be soldiers and should never have made it out of the Kaminoan factory in the first place.

And im not even gonna try to unpack the whole issue the chips bring up on top of it all.

so tl;dr? The title says it all. Legends got the clones right and Filoni's TCW did not.

~ Mod Purple

Hey, cutting in for Purple. Let's not even get into a regular clone some how commiting treason or another soldier walking away from the path of a soldier. Those two should be probably the biggest anomaly's ever and the first one should alarm every Jedi ever because they were told that a clone turning traitor is basically impossible. This would basically nearly cripple the Republic and order 66 because who is going to trust a clone when one went AWOL almost immediately after ATOC? Like I personally like TCW clones don't get me wrong but only if they didn't exist in SW or weren't actual clones or were maybe their own thing. I could probably accept it but it's so weird and random and doesn't even fit in the movies (just like most of TCW).

Also, a solution to this to make people more attached to clones: Make it the more independent clones like arc troopers, commandos, or commanders (Cody and such), or give regular clones small personality quirks, like one talks in a lower tone a bit, or one cleans his weapon often. One clone came out looking a bit older than the rest but is still good enough to be accepted by the Kaminoans because he was still skilled etc. They could have done so much more that would be rewarding to viewers. For example, one funny personality trait that Cody has is being more positive on things.

~ Mod A.

[the-cybersmith]

Either you are seriously cherry-picking legends, or you are seriously overstating how much individual variance the clones were given in TCW. Heck, the Republic Commando novels were legends (as were all but one season of TCW) and that had clones displaying individuality, as well as in some cases defecting.

The Kaminoans aren’t omnipotent, and they weren’t able to completely override human nature. Your claim that every militia in history has been 100% obedient is just... factually inaccurate on its face. Think about it, if orders were always followed to the letter, the entire field of psychological warfare would be redundant. Soldiers would never flee the field unless ordered to do so.

Every military in history has had to deal with some degree of disobedience, some degree of rebellion. The idea that the Kaminoans would have failed if even 1% of clones started exhibiting independent thought is just farcical. Clones as shown in TCW are still vastly more loyal and obedient than most historical armies have been (think of how many times in Roman history the army ended up fighting itself).

Finally, Star Wars has ALWAYS centred these themes. The importance and primacy of individual intuition and choice over unfeeling logic. The failure of regimented, organised military machinery against messy, free, organic human decision-making. What TCW did with the clones was consistent with themes that had been in the franchise ever since Luke blew up the Death Star.

[eu-legends]

1. You mean the arc troopers and the commandos who were anything but run of the mill? Those soldiers are extremely unique compared to any other clones.

2. True but me and purple both mention clones were basically engineered to follow every order so even our real world it wouldn't really apply. Also kaminoans are literally scientist they would be studying on the clones to make sure no independent thoughts unless they are arc troopers or commandos or a commander.

3. Right which is why as dark as it sounds they euthanized the clones that do act rebellious or come out wrong. Individuality is not something that never happens but the circumstances of them having individuality is low to say the least (see the nature vs nurture thing.) Also I know about the Romans it's probably one of my favorite parts in history because how many times they went too civil war lolol.

4. I agree that those themes are important but I would also argue it adds to how the Republic failed. Because they did a lot of mistakes one was allowing the clones to not have much individuality. Again I don't mind individuality but I feel it should have taken a bit longer. Thanks for the reply though.

-A.

Hello, and thank you for replying and giving us our first discourse interaction on this blog! We wanted to open up dialogue between Legend Stans and Disney Canon lovers to help people understand why long time SW fans gave TCW and Disney Canon so much backlash.

I also would like to clarify that you are absolutely 100% correct: no completely obedient militia has ever existed in human history. That was actually part of the point I was making and I apologize for not having made it more clear. My point was, militias demand complete obedience and loyalty from their soldiers. And if a soldier dissents or fails to follow orders, they are punished by death at the hands of a more loyal and obedient soldier. This is a standard military procedure in order to enhance the probablity of winning wars. This is what Order 66 was all about, establishing a standard fail safe procedure. This is also why in legends, Kaminoans would euthanize any clone that was not up to production standards. They make mistakes, but they eliminate those mistakes immediately during Quality Assurance process (a standard manufacturing procedure in any manufacturer plant).

~ Mod Purple

[the-cybersmith]

1. Not just them! Corr, for instance, was a normal clone assigned to munitions work, He ultimately ended up following a similar path to the commandos. These notions weren’t introduced by Filoni.

2. You’ve identified Kamino itself as being something of a control group, which is precisely the problem. It’s hard to detect independence or nonconformity in an environment like that. Take one of the clones introduced by Filoni, Cut Lawquane. He ultimately ended up deserting after his entire platoon was killed. He married, and became a humble farmer. There was no way the Kaminoans could have detected that, because he was never exposed to that kind of stimulus... he couldn’t have been. He had never experienced loss of any kind, certainly not loss on that scale before. Kamino is a sterile laboratory, and I think George Lucas was being very purposeful when he designed it to look like one. The trouble is, experiments in a laboratory don’t always behave the same way as ones outside. Trauma, experience, loss, connection... all these things affect us, they alter our perspectives, allow us new ways of thinking. Kamino is too controlled an environment to make any reliable assumptions about the nature of the people inside of it.

3. This is where the Kaminoans limited timescale works against them. The war cannot be delayed indefinitely, and even with growth acceleration, a dead clone takes years to replace. If a clone aged 8 years old (so, biologically speaking, 16), starts to act rebellious, and they kill him, that’s 8 years of time they can’t get back. They must have had some maximum limit of rebelliousness they were willing to accept, particularly as its human nature to grow more independent as we age. Their ability to euthanise clones is limited by their need to deliver a complete army. As with (and this will sound very callous) any product that is being mass produced, some level of flaw is always acceptable. It has to be, if you restarted the whole supply line for every tiny problem, you’d never get anything done on time. However, as I discussed in point 2, they were limited by the environment they were raising their clones in. Finally, i’ll point out that the exact words of the Kaminoan Prime Minister, Lama Su in episode 3 were “Less Independent than the original host”. That’s... a pretty low bar (or high bar, I suppose). Jango Fett was a bounty hunter who worked alone, never married, and travelled the galaxy working for the highest bidder. MOST PEOPLE are less independent than that! IMO, this justifies the chips. They knew some fraction, even if just a few percent, would refuse order 66, but they couldn’t know which clones specifically... so they added the chips in to all of them, just to be sure.

4. Oh, definitely. The Republic was well on its way to becoming the Empire, and what it permitted to be done in its name was immoral. However, I’d say that the failure of the Kaminoans to fully control the clones is a theme that has ALWAYS been present in Lucas’s work (right back to his earliest films, THX and American Graffitti, the former of which featured humans rebelling even when raised in a very controlled, authoritarian environment), and is still present in Star Wars today (The sequel trilogy is a tale of renegades, for better or worse; Kylo rejecting his upbrining and going to the dark, Finn denying his indoctrination as a stormtrooper, Rey abandoning her birth family’s legacy, Poe the son of heroes who became a spice runner, and then a chronically insubordinate pilot...). A major recurring theme is that human dignity, the innate will to be free, CANNOT be supressed, and any attempt to do so is going to fail. Less authoritarian systems will always be more successful in GL’s worldview.

[eu-legends]

1. All right was Corr in the war for long? If so I could chalk it up to clones having individuality thanks to the Jedi. I haven't personally read the commando books much but 99% of clones I have seen all act similar with not much independent thoughts until TCW where it made it the norm.

2. It would be hard except seeing simulations to see their reactions. And it also doesn't help they try to surpress individuality as much as possible. And for Cut? Well there was a clone commando who lost his entire platoon you know how he acted? Calm cool collected and finished his assignment. Fordo when he lost many men to Grievous acted calm, cool and collected and remained almost unaffected. And there is one example that I am not sure I can find but it was regular clone who lost his entire platoon and still remained loyal to the Republic and didn't even act rebellious. And you are talking about us acting us as humans and comparing them to clones who the majority have acted unaffected to their experiences by design it's kind of hard to not think that their individuality wasn't suppressed hard.

3. What are you talking about? The kaminoans heavily imply that they were on time and almost never implied much of a struggle. Also replacing one soldier is not hard especially when you have over a hundred thousand replacements and a million to go. Also again with human nature I don't know if you notice but his exact quote was "They are completely obedient to any order without question. We modified their *genetic structure* to make them less independent than their original host." The fact they manipulated their literal genetic structure to be less independent kind of points to the idea that they have done so before this and it's nothing new. Which makes sense since they are known for cloning it be weird if they didn't know how to make clones not independent not to mention that the prime minister treated Jango's clones like their magnum opus which would it make it even weirder if they failed and make them pretty bad cloners. There are exceptions to clones being independent I won't deny that but it's after years upon years of influences. Not to mention that TCW's clones are 90% independent with a few exceptions. And as for Jango Fett? Yeah he is independent but he is also a warrior at heart which kind of would contradict if they didn't emphasize that part of their blood. And no chips makes no sense for many reasons not the least of which are when some of the clones refused or didn't respond to it or were confused by order 66. Hell a lot of them either knew about it and were prepared or acted like it was another mission. So it's kind of weird the chips somehow malfunctioned for all those examples plus it would be weird no one noticed the chips especially a Jedi healer or a medical guy. Like clones get so many head injuries it would be impossible no one sees the chips at one point for a head injury.

4. Yeah though if that were true why write it in the first place? Why emphasize none individuality with stormtroopers most of the time? Why make clones act similar to stormtroopers? Why do most clones act unaffected by trauma up until TCW? Why if an arc troopers who acts no different from a TCW clone is in a coma? Etc.

Overall I disagree but respect your opinion

-A

[eu-legends]

Filoni was a disney agent from the start, change my mind

-Purple

[the-cybersmith]

Oh, I see, you are paranoid.

Filoni had been a Star Wars enthusiast for years befor George Lucas asked him to work for Lucasfilm. He’d previously worked on many animated properties, particularly for Nickelodeon.

You’re engaging in absolutely baseless speculation here, and you are talking about an actual human being. We aren’t just discussing art, or disagreeing over the themes of a piece of fiction, that’s a real person you’ve just accused of having an ulterior motive.

[eu-legends]

1. Yeah I think purple went a little overboard with that claim lol

2. I think I remember I did tell she started off too strong. I definitely don't think that he was but I kind of feel a bit frustrated when he gets a bit too much attention. Or Disney plays favoritism to his work compared to the movies. If you like I can give you a few examples if you want to.

-A

Lol, yes, i worded it strongly. That was because it was the first discourse post and I wanted to make it absolutely clear that we wanted to have active discourse interaction.

That said, I am fully aware that Filoni is a human person. But so is George Lucas, and Star Wars is his creation. He authored it and allowed us into his universe. And what I say is not baseless, I just deliberately left it open ended to recieve engagement.

Also, i am HORRIBLE at finding the sources, which is why Mod A is here. He knows SW legends and disney canon inside and out and is a master at finding quotes, clips, etc. Im just good at writing hot takes and doing deep dives into the psychological aspects of SW.

What I can say is that I find it incredibly fishy that Filoni got on the TCW project first, undermining a LOT of Legends Canon behind Lucas' back, and then when Lucas signed over his child to Disney, they immediately kick Lucas out of the loop but keep Filoni on board who only further violated Legends canon- and now he has how many shows he is directing for Disney? Im sorry, but if it werent for the undermining of Lucas, Disney would never had a foothold to buy Lucas Films in the first place.

~ Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

What legends got RIGHT- and that TCW got wrong:

Clones.

Like. Dont even come at me if you dont know what the definition of the word clone even is. Clones are not twins. They aren't even IDENTICAL twins, they are CLONES.

With that bit out of the way, I would like to dive deeper into lore and WHY the change was a BAD IDEA.

Clones are manufactured in a lab.

This one isnt even lore. This is reality. All clones are lab grown. No, seriously. Thats what they are IRL.

Star Wars Legends Canon has been and always will be a SCI-FI film, based on REAL, ACTUAL SCIENCE. Because it was made by a science nerd, expanded on by science and sci-fi nerds. As such, one can reasonably assume that the resulting clones are ALSO lab grown.

...Which... they are. Its... its right there.... in the prequels...

Clones are canonically manufactured by Kaminoans. A species that SPECIALIZES in creating, not just clones, but specifically, clone ARMIES. These beings are not just using existing cloning technology we see in our science labs, they are in a sci-fi universe. They are leagues ahead of the existing science of the time. They are leading geneticists. They modify the clones they manufacture to a high degree in order to ensure absolute customer satisfaction.

If you are dealing with soldiers in war, dissent is not acceptable. Individuality is not approved. In fact, conformity and uniform and absolute obedience within the rank is not just expect, but DEMANDED with penalty of death. Thats just basic military function regardless of what country they fight for. This is BASIC KNOWLEDGE. And THESE are the kinds of products the Kaminoans are GUARANTEEING their customers. They are, in fact, guarunteeing a more reliable set of soldiers than can be gathered in any other circumstance precisely because these are CLONES who have been genetically modified to remove any form of dissent or disobedience whatsoever. They literally bred individuality OUT. That was literally the POINT.

Which is why when it came to arc troopers, where the Kaminoans were EXPERIMENTING with individuality for the sake of decision making and tactical advice in rare instances required, they had the arc troopers in COMAS and tried to REFUSE to allow anyone to wake them because they were TOO free thinking for the Kaminoan's product standards.

All of this aside, we also have the whole nature vs nurture argument that everyone just loves to throw out there to defend clone individuality. Which would be an excellent point..........if the nurture was different for every clone....... which they werent.... because they grew up in a lab.... by the same people.... being taught the same things.... by people with the same accent and vocabulary........

Basically, in scientific terms, they ARE the control group. NOTHING is varied.

So now lets go back to the fact of what clones are. It is an EXACT copy of the original. Which would be.... Jango Fett. Keep in mind, this lab isnt a sperm bank, its a clone manufacturer. They arent creating unique individuals, they are recreating the original and THEN modifying the genes to program out the natural impulses to do what they want so that they can be good little obedient soldiers. And then these modified copies of Jango Fett are TRAINED by Jango Fett himself. So every single one of these clones are gonna look, act, fight, and talk just like Jango Fett.... but without free will. And so when the CLONES begin to teach NEW clones that are ALSO exactly like them, once again, they just as well be learning from the original Jango Fett himself with preprogrammed loyalty- a loyalty that is programmed straight into their DNA sequence. Because if it wasnt.... the Kaminoans wouldnt sell the clones to anyone in the first place and we wouldnt have the Star Wars franchise as we know it today.

Now this is not to say that Clones are not individuals, because they are. Their unique experiences ON THE BATTLEFIELD, WITH THE JEDI AND OTHER SOLDIERS can and does impact the clone. This is where the NURTURE finally begins to make itself known.

But by the time the clones get to experience anything UNIQUE from the other clones, their personality is already hardwired and any variation is going to be minimal at most. And their voice and accent most CERTAINLY would not change anymore than you can expect a full grown New Yorker trying to speak like a southern gramma. It can be forced, but it wont stay that way for long.

Annd.... I think by now you can probably guess where Im gonna say TCW got it wrong.

Clones should not be recognizable outside of arc troopers versus regular clones....due to their armor. Clones would be uniformed. They will have the same taste because they are COPIES of JANGO FETT. They will sound exactly the same. TCW should not have even TOLD the voice actor which clone he was voicing. Maybe for script writers a specific word could be used to identify, but for the voice actor to do an actually convincing clone voice for the many clones OF JANGO FETT, he should not have even known how many clones he was scripting. For all he knew, it could have (should have) been just one clone throughout the entire series.

TCW completely ignored the GENETIC MODIFICATION that the clones went through that GUARUNTEED one outcome: obedient, reliable, efficient soldiers the republic could depend upon.

What's worse, is that TCW straight up ignores the very definition of the word clone and treats the clones as if they are twins instead. If the clones were more like twins, then they would have had to have been raised and trained by completely different people of completely different accents in completely different environments. And TCW doesnt justify the so called individuality of the CLONES with this kind of caveat whatsoever.

They also make the REGULAR clones far too individual and daring in voicing their own opinions. The Kaminoans would have never let that fly. They would have euthanized the clones and started over to get an absolutely perfect product production because, like it or not, thats what they are in Star Wars: A product for nations to buy for the sake of war. And yet, somehow, TCW thinks its completely fine and normal to have clones being capable of advancing rank. They CANT advance rank when free will and individual thinking IS MISSING FROM THEIR DNA. Like. Thats literally a selling feature. Filoni does know this........right.....?

And speaking of rank, lets return to the arc troopers, for a minute. These ARE special and unique, by design. Because Arc troopers are specially trained to be able to take on unique roles that regular clones cannot, and to be CAPABLE of making decision and giving advice- But even then, they ultimately have no free will aside from following orders. By DESIGN. Obedience and strict loyalty is STILL programmed genetically into them and once again, i would like to point out how the republic had to INSIST that the Kaminoans even SELL their experimental arc troopers.... because the Kaminoans still considered them TOO UNIQUE and therefore TOO HIGH A RISK to their reputation of being a reliable clone army manufacturer.

Arc troopers are SUPPOSED to be the smarter, quirkier, unique clones. But at the end of the day, EVEN WITH modified nurture to accommodate the unique roles arc troopers must fill, they are still COPIES OF JANGO FETT, TAUGHT BY JANGO FETT. Their differences are not gonna be that remarkable!

And yet-!! And yet, TCW ignores all of this and tries to claim it is SOMEHOW canon with the prequels.

Ok. Ok, lets talk about the other bantha in the room.

Order 66.

Before we even get started, lets go back to how real world militia units work.

If a soldier gets a command and fails to execute it, he is killed by whoever catches him refusing to do the order. This is standard procedure in every militia group in history. Ask any veteran in any nation and they will confirm this as fact.

What if the soldier's commanding officer is commiting treason and someone next on the ladder tells the soldier to execute his commanding officer? Again, standard procedure demands that the soldier kills the commanding officer or the soldier, too, will be killed for compliamce in a treasonous act.

THIS IS WHAT ORDER 66 IS AND ALWAYS WAS: A STANDARD FAIL SAFE MILITARY PROCEDURE THAT EVERY MILITARY GROUP HAS.

THIS is why order 66 was devestatingly effective in Legends. THIS is why legends didnt need any prior excuse for the clones to 'betray' the Jedi. Because acting on order 66 is an act of explicit loyalty to the republic by executing their treasonous commanding officers, the Jedi. The programming for such obedience ALREADY EXISTS IN THEIR DNA. The programming already exists in STANDARD MILITARY TRAINING. This is knowledge George Lucas expected his audience to come to the table with because this is STANDARD even in our world.

TCW spits in the face of anyone who has been in a militia group of any sort. TCW suggests that the clones and soldiers could never kill their jedi commanders unless they had a computer chip?!? hidden in their brain that SOMEHOW medical personel (especially JEDI medical personel) would just.......not notice? If they cant trust the clones to execute a basic fail safe miltary command for their nation, then they are not fit to be soldiers and should never have made it out of the Kaminoan factory in the first place.

And im not even gonna try to unpack the whole issue the chips bring up on top of it all.

so tl;dr? The title says it all. Legends got the clones right and Filoni's TCW did not.

~ Mod Purple

Hey, cutting in for Purple. Let's not even get into a regular clone some how commiting treason or another soldier walking away from the path of a soldier. Those two should be probably the biggest anomaly's ever and the first one should alarm every Jedi ever because they were told that a clone turning traitor is basically impossible. This would basically nearly cripple the Republic and order 66 because who is going to trust a clone when one went AWOL almost immediately after ATOC? Like I personally like TCW clones don't get me wrong but only if they didn't exist in SW or weren't actual clones or were maybe their own thing. I could probably accept it but it's so weird and random and doesn't even fit in the movies (just like most of TCW).

Also, a solution to this to make people more attached to clones: Make it the more independent clones like arc troopers, commandos, or commanders (Cody and such), or give regular clones small personality quirks, like one talks in a lower tone a bit, or one cleans his weapon often. One clone came out looking a bit older than the rest but is still good enough to be accepted by the Kaminoans because he was still skilled etc. They could have done so much more that would be rewarding to viewers. For example, one funny personality trait that Cody has is being more positive on things.

~ Mod A.

[the-cybersmith]

Either you are seriously cherry-picking legends, or you are seriously overstating how much individual variance the clones were given in TCW. Heck, the Republic Commando novels were legends (as were all but one season of TCW) and that had clones displaying individuality, as well as in some cases defecting.

The Kaminoans aren’t omnipotent, and they weren’t able to completely override human nature. Your claim that every militia in history has been 100% obedient is just... factually inaccurate on its face. Think about it, if orders were always followed to the letter, the entire field of psychological warfare would be redundant. Soldiers would never flee the field unless ordered to do so.

Every military in history has had to deal with some degree of disobedience, some degree of rebellion. The idea that the Kaminoans would have failed if even 1% of clones started exhibiting independent thought is just farcical. Clones as shown in TCW are still vastly more loyal and obedient than most historical armies have been (think of how many times in Roman history the army ended up fighting itself).

Finally, Star Wars has ALWAYS centred these themes. The importance and primacy of individual intuition and choice over unfeeling logic. The failure of regimented, organised military machinery against messy, free, organic human decision-making. What TCW did with the clones was consistent with themes that had been in the franchise ever since Luke blew up the Death Star.

[eu-legends]

1. You mean the arc troopers and the commandos who were anything but run of the mill? Those soldiers are extremely unique compared to any other clones.

2. True but me and purple both mention clones were basically engineered to follow every order so even our real world it wouldn't really apply. Also kaminoans are literally scientist they would be studying on the clones to make sure no independent thoughts unless they are arc troopers or commandos or a commander.

3. Right which is why as dark as it sounds they euthanized the clones that do act rebellious or come out wrong. Individuality is not something that never happens but the circumstances of them having individuality is low to say the least (see the nature vs nurture thing.) Also I know about the Romans it's probably one of my favorite parts in history because how many times they went too civil war lolol.

4. I agree that those themes are important but I would also argue it adds to how the Republic failed. Because they did a lot of mistakes one was allowing the clones to not have much individuality. Again I don't mind individuality but I feel it should have taken a bit longer. Thanks for the reply though.

-A.

Hello, and thank you for replying and giving us our first discourse interaction on this blog! We wanted to open up dialogue between Legend Stans and Disney Canon lovers to help people understand why long time SW fans gave TCW and Disney Canon so much backlash.

I also would like to clarify that you are absolutely 100% correct: no completely obedient militia has ever existed in human history. That was actually part of the point I was making and I apologize for not having made it more clear. My point was, militias demand complete obedience and loyalty from their soldiers. And if a soldier dissents or fails to follow orders, they are punished by death at the hands of a more loyal and obedient soldier. This is a standard military procedure in order to enhance the probablity of winning wars. This is what Order 66 was all about, establishing a standard fail safe procedure. This is also why in legends, Kaminoans would euthanize any clone that was not up to production standards. They make mistakes, but they eliminate those mistakes immediately during Quality Assurance process (a standard manufacturing procedure in any manufacturer plant).

~ Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

Review by Purple and A.

A: Ok the video I am watching already gives me red flags. You know when videos show definitions of words sometimes in like an essay?

Purple: ...oh no. They didn't. What words?

A: Tragedy

Purple: ...

A:

[ Picture ID: Tragedy- definition 1A: A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or an inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances. End ID.]

Purple: well.... i mean.

they arent wrong.... but.

it does show that they intend to, more than likely, focus on anakin's failings rather than the circumstances around him.

A: Yeah like I am willing to bet they are going to say stuff like "We didn't see what caused Anakin's conflict against the order" or stuff like that.

Purple: 🙄

A: Going by the movies alone. Everyone in the first movie is looking at Anakin with judging eyes since he was 9 and it's implied it never got better that alone would probably make a lot of people uncomfortable.

And oh God he really just said "Now you know I am not really big prequel fan".

That automatically eliminated all "objective" thoughts you may have because you are biased.

Purple: yup.

A: It's so weird when people do that.

Purple: Like, why would you make a comparison between two items and straight up admit you are being biased? It makes no sense. If you want to convince people that TCW (or anything else) 'saved' the franchise, you really need to come at us from a neutral standpoint. Otherwise half your points are going to be moot.

A: Exactly.

Also I am not nearly as biased because first of all I essentially started with TCW and liked them. (I only) disliked (them) after seeing the flaws.

Purple: Yeah, you came in with good faith and wanted more content. It was only after getting into the Legends EU that you realized the disservice TCW was to the original works.

A: Ok he started of sort of strong by talking about what the movies got right on Anakin like his "instability" and how the movies set up that Padme was Anakin's anchor.

Then he face planted by saying we are not shown she is his anchor.

Purple: lol

i have a feeling you have more than enough examples of proof that she was, in fact, shown to be Anakin's anchor in the original movies?

A: Well the fact that in the first movie Padme is there to comfort Anakin when they leave his home planet and his mother behind.

The fact that she again comforted him after his mother died.

Anakin also holds her immeadeately after not seeing her months in what could only be described as a desperate embrace.

She also is someone he constantly talks to when he has frustrations with Obi-wan.

Should I go on?

Purple: lol, i think the point was made XD

A: Oh great he has a second video talking about how we're the clones were saved too

Purple: oh no he doesnt

A:

Purple: oh no. Not another one who doesnt seem to get the point of the word clone instead of twin. Sigh.... another one to add to the list, i suppose.

A: Lol

Uuuuuuugh

He just started telling us how we should feel but don't feel

Purple: ....

A: He is pointing out how there is memes on the movies, Even though every movie and show has memes.

Purple: dont you just hate it when people assume the feelings of all the viewers?

A: Yes

Purple: We are human people with opinions not a monolith of hiveminded ants. lol

A: Also could you name me a famous good movie that doesn't have memes?

I can think of very few.

Especially if they are famous.

Purple: no. lol

They have memes about isaac newton paintings, i somehow doubt a movie exists out there without one.

A: Marvel movies millions praise all the time yet those have memes upon memes.

Purple: well Marvel and DC are an entirely different debate when it comes to cinematic value, but your point still stands. good or bad, there is a meme out there somewhere for it. and the more popular it is (like the SW franchise), the more memes of all sorts there will be.

A: Yeah I am not saying either or it's just lots of people are like "These movies are objectively good"

But don't say the same for the prequels. By saying the prequels have memes Or made people laugh with memes.

I laugh all the time when I see this meme but this is a serious moment.

Purple: yeah, its a hole in his logic. it just doesnt make any sense to try using memeage as a point in either direction.

A: Also this guy started critizing the movie by saying the romance was cringy

Even though it was supposed to be uncomfortable the romance in terms of flirting

Purple: What does he expect? lol

A: Those 2 have literally no experience

Purple: Anakin was a slave, became a Jedi who is forbidden to have any attachments at all, so its not like he had anyone to learn from, and Padme couldnt exactly date him either, she's a politician and has an image to maintain. lol

A: Padme's last boyfriend was when she was 12

Purple: good point.

which is basically the same as having no experience.

A: Imagine any introvert trying to flirt with a girl with no experience

Purple: lol

i mean, sure, there some who can but its unlikely. XD

A: This dude wanted James bond

Purple: ooof

yeah no, thats not the kind of movie OR character this guy is gonna get. this isnt some spy action film for adults, lol

Its meant to be family friendly and a saga on how war is bad on all fronts. Romance was just a side point XD

A: Also this guy was complaining about how we don't feel the tragedy of Anakin and Obi-wan because they both are arguing and having a difficult time with each other. Which I am like "Those moments have context and the clone wars is when those two actually start bonding fully". The problem with anakin and Obi-wan is lack of communication a character flaw not a plot hole.

Purple: yes. this. there is a difference there, and the two grow through their flaws. The tragedy isnt their friendship, its the way their friendship ended almost all at once. Over yet another misunderstanding. One that was too big to be mended.

A: George Lucas wanted to make a relationship that was not built on love immeadeately. And one that had flaws in it.

Purple: And he does a beautiful job portraying real human relationships. Showing that no friendship or romance is perfect. And yet showing how beautiful and strong they can be despite those flaws.

[eu-legends]

We did, in fact, watch the video on the clones- after we wrote this post. And the clone post covers pretty much all our thoughts on the 8 minute clone video anyways. thats 43 minutes we'll never get back. lol

~ Mod Purple

[eu-legends]

Review by Purple and A.

A: Ok the video I am watching already gives me red flags. You know when videos show definitions of words sometimes in like an essay?

Purple: ...oh no. They didn't. What words?

A: Tragedy

Purple: ...

A:

[ Picture ID: Tragedy- definition 1A: A drama or literary work in which the main character is brought to ruin or suffers extreme sorrow, especially as a consequence of a tragic flaw, moral weakness, or an inability to cope with unfavorable circumstances. End ID.]

Purple: well.... i mean.

they arent wrong.... but.

it does show that they intend to, more than likely, focus on anakin's failings rather than the circumstances around him.

A: Yeah like I am willing to bet they are going to say stuff like "We didn't see what caused Anakin's conflict against the order" or stuff like that.

Purple: 🙄

A: Going by the movies alone. Everyone in the first movie is looking at Anakin with judging eyes since he was 9 and it's implied it never got better that alone would probably make a lot of people uncomfortable.

And oh God he really just said "Now you know I am not really big prequel fan".

That automatically eliminated all "objective" thoughts you may have because you are biased.

Purple: yup.

A: It's so weird when people do that.

Purple: Like, why would you make a comparison between two items and straight up admit you are being biased? It makes no sense. If you want to convince people that TCW (or anything else) 'saved' the franchise, you really need to come at us from a neutral standpoint. Otherwise half your points are going to be moot.

A: Exactly.

Also I am not nearly as biased because first of all I essentially started with TCW and liked them. (I only) disliked (them) after seeing the flaws.

Purple: Yeah, you came in with good faith and wanted more content. It was only after getting into the Legends EU that you realized the disservice TCW was to the original works.

A: Ok he started of sort of strong by talking about what the movies got right on Anakin like his "instability" and how the movies set up that Padme was Anakin's anchor.

Then he face planted by saying we are not shown she is his anchor.

Purple: lol

i have a feeling you have more than enough examples of proof that she was, in fact, shown to be Anakin's anchor in the original movies?

A: Well the fact that in the first movie Padme is there to comfort Anakin when they leave his home planet and his mother behind.

The fact that she again comforted him after his mother died.

Anakin also holds her immeadeately after not seeing her months in what could only be described as a desperate embrace.

She also is someone he constantly talks to when he has frustrations with Obi-wan.

Should I go on?

Purple: lol, i think the point was made XD

A: Oh great he has a second video talking about how we're the clones were saved too

Purple: oh no he doesnt

A:

Purple: oh no. Not another one who doesnt seem to get the point of the word clone instead of twin. Sigh.... another one to add to the list, i suppose.

A: Lol

Uuuuuuugh

He just started telling us how we should feel but don't feel

Purple: ....

A: He is pointing out how there is memes on the movies, Even though every movie and show has memes.

Purple: dont you just hate it when people assume the feelings of all the viewers?

A: Yes

Purple: We are human people with opinions not a monolith of hiveminded ants. lol

A: Also could you name me a famous good movie that doesn't have memes?

I can think of very few.

Especially if they are famous.

Purple: no. lol

They have memes about isaac newton paintings, i somehow doubt a movie exists out there without one.

A: Marvel movies millions praise all the time yet those have memes upon memes.

Purple: well Marvel and DC are an entirely different debate when it comes to cinematic value, but your point still stands. good or bad, there is a meme out there somewhere for it. and the more popular it is (like the SW franchise), the more memes of all sorts there will be.

A: Yeah I am not saying either or it's just lots of people are like "These movies are objectively good"

But don't say the same for the prequels. By saying the prequels have memes Or made people laugh with memes.

I laugh all the time when I see this meme but this is a serious moment.

Purple: yeah, its a hole in his logic. it just doesnt make any sense to try using memeage as a point in either direction.

A: Also this guy started critizing the movie by saying the romance was cringy

Even though it was supposed to be uncomfortable the romance in terms of flirting

Purple: What does he expect? lol

A: Those 2 have literally no experience

Purple: Anakin was a slave, became a Jedi who is forbidden to have any attachments at all, so its not like he had anyone to learn from, and Padme couldnt exactly date him either, she's a politician and has an image to maintain. lol

A: Padme's last boyfriend was when she was 12

Purple: good point.

which is basically the same as having no experience.

A: Imagine any introvert trying to flirt with a girl with no experience

Purple: lol

i mean, sure, there some who can but its unlikely. XD

A: This dude wanted James bond

Purple: ooof

yeah no, thats not the kind of movie OR character this guy is gonna get. this isnt some spy action film for adults, lol

Its meant to be family friendly and a saga on how war is bad on all fronts. Romance was just a side point XD

A: Also this guy was complaining about how we don't feel the tragedy of Anakin and Obi-wan because they both are arguing and having a difficult time with each other. Which I am like "Those moments have context and the clone wars is when those two actually start bonding fully". The problem with anakin and Obi-wan is lack of communication a character flaw not a plot hole.

Purple: yes. this. there is a difference there, and the two grow through their flaws. The tragedy isnt their friendship, its the way their friendship ended almost all at once. Over yet another misunderstanding. One that was too big to be mended.

A: George Lucas wanted to make a relationship that was not built on love immeadeately. And one that had flaws in it.

Purple: And he does a beautiful job portraying real human relationships. Showing that no friendship or romance is perfect. And yet showing how beautiful and strong they can be despite those flaws.

[eu-legends]

What legends got RIGHT- and that TCW got wrong:

Clones.

Like. Dont even come at me if you dont know what the definition of the word clone even is. Clones are not twins. They aren't even IDENTICAL twins, they are CLONES.

With that bit out of the way, I would like to dive deeper into lore and WHY the change was a BAD IDEA.

Clones are manufactured in a lab.

This one isnt even lore. This is reality. All clones are lab grown. No, seriously. Thats what they are IRL.

Star Wars Legends Canon has been and always will be a SCI-FI film, based on REAL, ACTUAL SCIENCE. Because it was made by a science nerd, expanded on by science and sci-fi nerds. As such, one can reasonably assume that the resulting clones are ALSO lab grown.

...Which... they are. Its... its right there.... in the prequels...

Clones are canonically manufactured by Kaminoans. A species that SPECIALIZES in creating, not just clones, but specifically, clone ARMIES. These beings are not just using existing cloning technology we see in our science labs, they are in a sci-fi universe. They are leagues ahead of the existing science of the time. They are leading geneticists. They modify the clones they manufacture to a high degree in order to ensure absolute customer satisfaction.

If you are dealing with soldiers in war, dissent is not acceptable. Individuality is not approved. In fact, conformity and uniform and absolute obedience within the rank is not just expect, but DEMANDED with penalty of death. Thats just basic military function regardless of what country they fight for. This is BASIC KNOWLEDGE. And THESE are the kinds of products the Kaminoans are GUARANTEEING their customers. They are, in fact, guarunteeing a more reliable set of soldiers than can be gathered in any other circumstance precisely because these are CLONES who have been genetically modified to remove any form of dissent or disobedience whatsoever. They literally bred individuality OUT. That was literally the POINT.

Which is why when it came to arc troopers, where the Kaminoans were EXPERIMENTING with individuality for the sake of decision making and tactical advice in rare instances required, they had the arc troopers in COMAS and tried to REFUSE to allow anyone to wake them because they were TOO free thinking for the Kaminoan's product standards.

All of this aside, we also have the whole nature vs nurture argument that everyone just loves to throw out there to defend clone individuality. Which would be an excellent point..........if the nurture was different for every clone....... which they werent.... because they grew up in a lab.... by the same people.... being taught the same things.... by people with the same accent and vocabulary........

Basically, in scientific terms, they ARE the control group. NOTHING is varied.

So now lets go back to the fact of what clones are. It is an EXACT copy of the original. Which would be.... Jango Fett. Keep in mind, this lab isnt a sperm bank, its a clone manufacturer. They arent creating unique individuals, they are recreating the original and THEN modifying the genes to program out the natural impulses to do what they want so that they can be good little obedient soldiers. And then these modified copies of Jango Fett are TRAINED by Jango Fett himself. So every single one of these clones are gonna look, act, fight, and talk just like Jango Fett.... but without free will. And so when the CLONES begin to teach NEW clones that are ALSO exactly like them, once again, they just as well be learning from the original Jango Fett himself with preprogrammed loyalty- a loyalty that is programmed straight into their DNA sequence. Because if it wasnt.... the Kaminoans wouldnt sell the clones to anyone in the first place and we wouldnt have the Star Wars franchise as we know it today.

Now this is not to say that Clones are not individuals, because they are. Their unique experiences ON THE BATTLEFIELD, WITH THE JEDI AND OTHER SOLDIERS can and does impact the clone. This is where the NURTURE finally begins to make itself known.

But by the time the clones get to experience anything UNIQUE from the other clones, their personality is already hardwired and any variation is going to be minimal at most. And their voice and accent most CERTAINLY would not change anymore than you can expect a full grown New Yorker trying to speak like a southern gramma. It can be forced, but it wont stay that way for long.

Annd.... I think by now you can probably guess where Im gonna say TCW got it wrong.

Clones should not be recognizable outside of arc troopers versus regular clones....due to their armor. Clones would be uniformed. They will have the same taste because they are COPIES of JANGO FETT. They will sound exactly the same. TCW should not have even TOLD the voice actor which clone he was voicing. Maybe for script writers a specific word could be used to identify, but for the voice actor to do an actually convincing clone voice for the many clones OF JANGO FETT, he should not have even known how many clones he was scripting. For all he knew, it could have (should have) been just one clone throughout the entire series.

TCW completely ignored the GENETIC MODIFICATION that the clones went through that GUARUNTEED one outcome: obedient, reliable, efficient soldiers the republic could depend upon.

What's worse, is that TCW straight up ignores the very definition of the word clone and treats the clones as if they are twins instead. If the clones were more like twins, then they would have had to have been raised and trained by completely different people of completely different accents in completely different environments. And TCW doesnt justify the so called individuality of the CLONES with this kind of caveat whatsoever.

They also make the REGULAR clones far too individual and daring in voicing their own opinions. The Kaminoans would have never let that fly. They would have euthanized the clones and started over to get an absolutely perfect product production because, like it or not, thats what they are in Star Wars: A product for nations to buy for the sake of war. And yet, somehow, TCW thinks its completely fine and normal to have clones being capable of advancing rank. They CANT advance rank when free will and individual thinking IS MISSING FROM THEIR DNA. Like. Thats literally a selling feature. Filoni does know this........right.....?

And speaking of rank, lets return to the arc troopers, for a minute. These ARE special and unique, by design. Because Arc troopers are specially trained to be able to take on unique roles that regular clones cannot, and to be CAPABLE of making decision and giving advice- But even then, they ultimately have no free will aside from following orders. By DESIGN. Obedience and strict loyalty is STILL programmed genetically into them and once again, i would like to point out how the republic had to INSIST that the Kaminoans even SELL their experimental arc troopers.... because the Kaminoans still considered them TOO UNIQUE and therefore TOO HIGH A RISK to their reputation of being a reliable clone army manufacturer.

Arc troopers are SUPPOSED to be the smarter, quirkier, unique clones. But at the end of the day, EVEN WITH modified nurture to accommodate the unique roles arc troopers must fill, they are still COPIES OF JANGO FETT, TAUGHT BY JANGO FETT. Their differences are not gonna be that remarkable!

And yet-!! And yet, TCW ignores all of this and tries to claim it is SOMEHOW canon with the prequels.

Ok. Ok, lets talk about the other bantha in the room.

Order 66.

Before we even get started, lets go back to how real world militia units work.

If a soldier gets a command and fails to execute it, he is killed by whoever catches him refusing to do the order. This is standard procedure in every militia group in history. Ask any veteran in any nation and they will confirm this as fact.

What if the soldier's commanding officer is commiting treason and someone next on the ladder tells the soldier to execute his commanding officer? Again, standard procedure demands that the soldier kills the commanding officer or the soldier, too, will be killed for compliamce in a treasonous act.

THIS IS WHAT ORDER 66 IS AND ALWAYS WAS: A STANDARD FAIL SAFE MILITARY PROCEDURE THAT EVERY MILITARY GROUP HAS.

THIS is why order 66 was devestatingly effective in Legends. THIS is why legends didnt need any prior excuse for the clones to 'betray' the Jedi. Because acting on order 66 is an act of explicit loyalty to the republic by executing their treasonous commanding officers, the Jedi. The programming for such obedience ALREADY EXISTS IN THEIR DNA. The programming already exists in STANDARD MILITARY TRAINING. This is knowledge George Lucas expected his audience to come to the table with because this is STANDARD even in our world.

TCW spits in the face of anyone who has been in a militia group of any sort. TCW suggests that the clones and soldiers could never kill their jedi commanders unless they had a computer chip?!? hidden in their brain that SOMEHOW medical personel (especially JEDI medical personel) would just.......not notice? If they cant trust the clones to execute a basic fail safe miltary command for their nation, then they are not fit to be soldiers and should never have made it out of the Kaminoan factory in the first place.

And im not even gonna try to unpack the whole issue the chips bring up on top of it all.

so tl;dr? The title says it all. Legends got the clones right and Filoni's TCW did not.

~ Mod Purple

Hey, cutting in for Purple. Let's not even get into a regular clone some how commiting treason or another soldier walking away from the path of a soldier. Those two should be probably the biggest anomaly's ever and the first one should alarm every Jedi ever because they were told that a clone turning traitor is basically impossible. This would basically nearly cripple the Republic and order 66 because who is going to trust a clone when one went AWOL almost immediately after ATOC? Like I personally like TCW clones don't get me wrong but only if they didn't exist in SW or weren't actual clones or were maybe their own thing. I could probably accept it but it's so weird and random and doesn't even fit in the movies (just like most of TCW).

Also, a solution to this to make people more attached to clones: Make it the more independent clones like arc troopers, commandos, or commanders (Cody and such), or give regular clones small personality quirks, like one talks in a lower tone a bit, or one cleans his weapon often. One clone came out looking a bit older than the rest but is still good enough to be accepted by the Kaminoans because he was still skilled etc. They could have done so much more that would be rewarding to viewers. For example, one funny personality trait that Cody has is being more positive on things.

~ Mod A.

[eu-legends]

If you think that Prequel Anakin was not acting like a noble hero with a bit of a darkside to him.... then maybe its because prequel Anakin never FELT like a noble hero in the first place. Prequel Anakin was Authentic, not a hero. The sooner people realize he was just a teenager trying to figure himself out the sooner you will actually appreciate what Lucas did in those films.

[eu-legends]

George Lucas did not have 'too much control' over anything after Clone Wars. He had too little say, too little respect, was undermined, and on the cusp of giving up his life's work altogether after fandom and Filoni harassed him to absolutely no end as if its mot the AUTHORS RIGHT to decide what will or wont happen.

Do not ever forget that Star Wars is HIS universe and he simply ALLOWED people to add to it. He had the RIGHT to make the rules in which HIS UNIVERSE was used.

[eu-legends]

The prequels in legends canon is not stilted nor a cinematic flop.

It is underrated by people who put more stock value in people with loud voices (the movie critics) than in the sum of SW franchise fanbase.

If it were a cinematic failure, then Star wars wouldnt be such a gigantic cultural phenomenon that spans of entire generations of people. Our generation is just spoiled with online fandom spaces where the fanbase can completely drown out the movie critics.