Going Hollow

Looking at minor details in Fromsoft Games and asking questions the devs never had in mind.

[goinghollowds]

Greetings

Fellow cursed undead, I have created this blog to put all my ramblings, overanalysis, minor observations, and baseless speculation of Fromsoftware's Dark Souls Trilogy and beyond.

As I was replaying Dark Souls 3 I thought to myself "has anyone talked about the flora in this game?". Me, being NOT a botanist decided to catalogue them and put them in a blog, but then- why stop there? Why not point out every small detail I can find? What was this room used for? Why is this enemy here? Does this make sense? And other stuff.

I will try to be professional in my commentary but I am a very unserious person so we'll see.

-GH

[katyspersonal]

I just realised that White Bow, which is a thing of Shrine of Storms, having two strings mirrors their hawks having two pairs of wings. This is so cool

[val-of-the-north]

Damn, I never noticed Reah's Hollow form was very blue. It resembles that of the Crystal Hollows found all around the Duke's Archives.

I guess it implies they started experimenting on her right away and that she didn't just go Hollow from being captured... poor girl :(

[goinghollowds]

DS Over-Analysis Lorethrough #1: Character Creation

Too much lore? Too many plotpoints to follow? Three games is a lot, and with each having some inconsistencies it can lead to a mess of thoughts. So let’s wipe the slate clean and take a dive through the first game with a fine tooth comb!

Today I will be going through and over-analyzing every bit of lore revealed through the progression of the game. Only going by what we know when we find it.

And we will also be ignoring the existence of the sequels entirely. Not even interview statements or translation errors, only everything that’s in the game we play! Though I may include what new info we can gain by looking outside at another date.

I put more than 30 images so I can't post it to here without trimming a bunch so I'll just be posting a google doc of it. So let’s get into it!

DS Over-Analysis Lorethrough #1: Character Creation

Too much lore? Too many plotpoints to follow? Three games is a lot, and with each having some inconsistencies it can lead to a mess of thoug

TL:DR

What have we learned?

It is a fantasy setting with knights and sorcerers and earldoms, along with some more advanced tech such as binoculars.

There are at least 6 nations and 4 geographical locations. Our starting classes are from one of them.

[Astora]

[Carim]

[Catarina]

[Thorolund]

[Vinheim]

[Zena]

[The Fivefinger Delta]

[The Great Swamp]

[North Catarina]

[The Far East]

And that there are 3 types of magic

[Sorcery]

[Pyromancy]

[Miracles] 

And lastly something about Humanity…

All before even starting the game! And don’t forget the Opening Cutscene that will loredump a LOT of info!

-GH

[val-of-the-north]

Most of the "lesser" Nightlords are creatures who think differently from humans, with the clear exception of Fulghor, Libra and Caligo.

Among the three, Fulghor is the odd one out, as he is a warrior and champion of an ancient age who lacks the inquisitiveness of the other two. He is there to fight on behalf of the ancient gods he worshipped, and I am not sure if he is on the side of the Night or if like Adel he has simply found himself in this position due to his sheer power allowing him to claim the title. He did gain a new arm out of it, but he is also not the "Champion of Night" but the "Champion of Nightglow", in stark contrast to everyone else. He even wields a "sacred form of the Night's power", which is interesting since the true Nightlord and Gladius, his personal companion, are both really weak to sacred power... he is also the only Nightlord visibly affected by the Night's power, as his skin features blueish spots all over it. Perhaps he isn't as willing as the others to see the world vanish, but he is too prideful to side with the people who replaced his pantheon. After all, it seems the Nightfarers are drawing from the power of Grace left behind by the dominant culture of the time. Maybe he could have been an ally, but he couldn't forgive the changing of the ages.

This leaves us with Caligo and Libra, who are both very intelligent beings with a wealth of knowledge, acquired for vastly different reasons. Caligo seeks to know and remember, observing history and committing everything to memory, while Libra seeks to reach balance and enlightenment, walking a thin line between blessing and madness. Both also have the ability to pretend to be human, but while we see it for Libra, it is only implied for Caligo, since she is an Ancient Dragon, judging from her appearance, and they could all shape-shift into a more humanoid form if they wanted. However, I believe they are kind of opposites in the way they operate.

Libra, as the Baphomet-inspired creature that he is, gives me the vibe of someone who was there for many points of history, and maybe even interacted with some of the more important people when they meant nothing yet. I can imagine him knocking at Midra's door or meeting a young Marika before she is pulled away by one of her elders who knows the guy is bad news lol. However, he does not seem to be on board with the whole "Lord of Frenzied Flame" thing. He is just as susceptible to madness himself, and something like that would tip the scales on one side rather than the other, which goes against his desire for true balance. Libra's choice to peer into madness is simply a way to reach enlightenment, as it brings you closer to the concept of the One Great.

I think Libra is a force that tips the scales in favor of whatever power is lacking at the moment in an attempt to reach balance. So in an Age where Frenzy is at its lowest, he'd stir up chaos and madness, while in one where Frenzy rules and begins melting the world away, he'd show people the boons of gold and order. He wouldn't necessarily be the one who shapes the course of history, but rather someone who can guess based on his calculations, simply "nudging" others towards the direction he thinks would be best for achieving true equilibrium, which he finally found in the Night that he views as the equalizer of all things. He basically wants a world of unity but without individuality being destroyed, believing balance can exist in the current state of the world without having to renounce it. Quite an insane thing to aim for, but it's respectable in its own right, especially since he did manage to marry order and chaos into his own form of alchemy.

Meanwhile, Caligo is a watchful eye that has probably been around since time immemorial, possibly even being a contemporary to Metyr, or someone born very soon after her arrival on their world. She has observed history and sometimes shows up for its most important events so that she may remember them. In stark contrast to Libra, who feels like he'd be considered a mythological figure, historians would know of Caligo and her importance. And again, unlike him, she would show up when events are already in motion and worth memorizing. She could even show up in her human form to converse with the current world leaders, hear their side and maybe even impart wisdom if they choose to listen to her words. But maybe her years of witnessing cycles upon cycles have made her detached, which just leads her to make either cold or sardonic remarks on certain things she knows for a fact will happen, and they often do just as she predicted. Because she has learned the pattern of history and can correctly identify how things will go.

Maybe in endings that aren't the Age of Fracture, Stars or the Lord of Frenzied Flame, the Tarnished protagonist would be visited by her, curious of the new developments. Maybe she even paid a visit during the Shattering, if only to laugh at how predictable the civil war between Demigods was. The Night, however, seems to be something new and worth investigating, which is no doubt a source of great relief for someone who must have been growing weary of the stagnant nature of Marika's reign.

-

Now I am wondering if Gideon Ofnir looked for either of them in his quest to be all-knowing... he seems smart enough to have found a way to peer into the mind of Marika and discover the truth of the Fingers, so he could have communed with either Caligo, or Libra, or both in an attempt to expand his own knowledge. Cool to think about.

[val-of-the-north]

Nightreign is fun. I love the Nightlords too.

Reupload because I've made an incredibly stupid oversight the first time due to lack of sleep (I wanna kms lol)

[wanderingmausoleum]

pondering……………

[ztarhaven]

Darktale 2 was my favorite

[arnaerr]

The Night of Black Knives prints ✦ patreon    

[zetzo27]

when rummaging through the swamps and boggy areas of liurnia, you may find one of these waypoints (the first picture).

taken together, the waypoints guide travelers along a partially submerged road, connecting the north and south shorelines of the lake, even passing through the sunken academy gate town. i always wondered what this road would look like on the in-game map, so i decided to make it myself. the second picture shows the map with green highlights at each waypoint i could find.

and then the final picture has a red line playing connect-the-dots with these markers, sketching out this road on the map. i think it looks pretty cool!

[miirshroom]

Elden Ring - Belurat Gaol

Took some time the other day to contemplate Belurat Gaol. It's a well-paced dungeon with some neat environmental storytelling to be found.

So right away with this gaol I'm looking at where landmarks on the surface are located compared to the underground. It turns out that the marker is at the cave mouth and the actual site of grace and teleport point is quite a bit further into the city.

With a previous Belurat post I noticed that the marker for the gaol is positioned under the courtyard where the weeping tree can be found. Standing exactly on top of the site of grace gives a good view of the 4th pedestal in the sequence around the tree. The first two horned lions are looking towards the courtyard entry, the third is broken off at the feet and lying shattered on the ground, and the 4th pedestal is vacant.

Appreciate that the embedded metal grating serves no purpose except to make the cave mouth look like an actual closing mouth.

Spatial map of the dungeon, starting from the first glimpse of the interior that comes just before the site of grace.

1. Entrance

The first view of the dungeon is this great framed shot where two columns are illuminated in the distance. These rectangular portals are fairly typical throughout the dungeon. The first event is that one of the shadow undead rushes out of this side chamber in ambush. Within the room is a hornsent corpse holding 6x Frozen Maggot and another shadow undead bodily covering another Frozen Maggot. multiple sizes of jars in the room. Also bear traps and hanging cages.

Walking a little further and the path crumbles underfoot, dropping down into an area with 3 shadowmen and 3 more Frozen Maggots. Another side room with various sizes of cages. A shadow undead is looking at a corpse holding 1x Silver Horn Tender, and there is a second shadow undead in the room waiting in ambush.

2. Rock Bridge

There's a rock bridge here with two Shadow Undead patrolling the end. This is the first instance of a closed metal door looking off into the northwest, which is the direction of Enir-Ilim.

There's a body here draped over the cliffside (holding 4x Frozen Maggot), and the view from this location offers the first glimpse of Jar Innards out in the open at the end of the bridge below. Outside the entrance to the next chamber is the first instance of a rack holding restraints.

In this chamber there is one Shadow Undead cowering behind a jar, and another around the corner hunched over more Frozen Maggots. The exit to this room is via a wall grating that has been bent outwards into the next chamber. Again in this next chamber there are two more Shadow Undead over Frozen Maggots. There's a grate in the floor, which was also a trend in the previous 2 chambers.

In the connecting chamber there are 3 Shadow Undead sitting at 2 tables (one off screen to the right), and a Hornsent corpse on the ground between 2 other tables. The corpse holds a Broken Rune and reaching it is the trigger for the Shadowmen to stand up and attack.

Outside the next door and to the right there is a corpse climbing up the cliff in the direction of a bear trap in a box and holding 1x Thawfrost Boluses. This is the first setpiece drawing attention to the giant pot behind the altar in the distance.

3. Jar Descent

This segment starts with a short corridor containing a distressed Spirit NPC cowering in front of some ice stalagmites:

"Oh please. Not the jar... Anything but that! I promise. I won't ever do it again! I swear - a living saint I'll surely be! Please... you must forgive me. Forgive me, please."

Through the doorway there is one Shadow man patrolling and two kneeling in the distance. Note for now that both are positioned so that looking straight through the doorway they are bisected by chains. There is also a jar suspended over the chasm with two of its three attachment points broken.

Around the big pit is where it really pays off to pay attention to the Frozen Maggot locations. Because they call attention to these two beautifully poetic shots.

From the Frozen Maggots to the right of the door there is an optical illusion where the left-hand Shadow is tethered by a dark chain descending from the sky, while the right-hand Shadow is enclosed in a cage of silver chains.

From the Frozen Maggots to the left of the door both Shadows are now obscured by a suspended jar. From this angle the pot which was used to suggest a cage is illuminated, drawing attention to its use as a path downwards. From this angle a side chamber can be seen across the chasm, with a lit brazier just outside its entrance. Also a rare observation that in shadow up towards the top left there is a small suspended jar with the bottom broken out of it.

A little further to the left and there is an unlit brazier - the caged Shadow seems to be looking in this direction and also now the suspended jar that was blocking the Shadows is instead blocking the door to that side chamber across the chasm.

There is a third Frozen Maggots close behind the Shadows. It seems to be depicting the one Shadow preparing to descend down the pit. Something that I noticed is that the Shadow on the left has less HP than the one on the right - being a difference between 1 hit and two hits. From this position the jar that is suspended tenuously from only one of 3 chains is positioned above the entryway to this chamber, echoing the way that it was the first fully visible pot that could be seen when looking through the door. For me this subtly reinforces the stakes, in the sense that once the last chain snaps then gravity ensures a one way trip to a shattered vessel. Dropping down into the pit will be the third "Point of no Return" encountered in this dungeon.

But first there is the side chamber. Because empty chambers are suspicious and I like to have the high ground I head straight up the stack of pots on the right. From the left emerges the first Jar Innards properly encountered in this dungeon, oozing out of a sideways turned pot. This harmonizes with that subtle environmental storytelling where the two chained Shadows were eclipsed by the hanging jar. The corpse on the ground is holding a Shadow Rune [3].

Onwards to the actual descent. There are two alternate routes to the bottom, one of which leads to a wooden platform on the side. There's a corpse positioned on the hanging jar that is the diverging point between the two routes, which was holding 1x glass shard.

At the drop point onto the platform there are two tiny jarbairns that wake up and start attacking. Approaching the treasure chest at the other side of the platform there is a suspicious cracked pot, which explodes to reveal a Jar Innards. The treasure chest contains 1x hefty cracked pot.

The lowest hanging jar is the only one in the platforming sequence to be suspended by two chains instead of three, and I find that any amount of jump will overshoot it so the descent is to be made safely by walking off the jar above. Below there is a Living Jar sitting still and with two Jarbairns running around in circles chasing each other.

At first glance the route ahead seems clear.

Heading to right because I can see the short pots indicating I can get to the high ground for safety. The further away Jar Innards are the first to emerge, I assume because they want to entice you into the trap of triggering the nearer Jar innards at the same time.

And that's where I leave this post at the threshold to the next chamber because I've gotten to the photo limit. Part 2 maybe to follow sometime!

[miirshroom]

Elden Ring - Coded Sword and Ciper Pata

An analysis of these two weapons, in terms of what they seem to symbolically represent.

The script used for the swords is the same as in the Two Fingers Incantation symbol, but straightened instead of circular. The weapons seem to show that words have literal power in the Two Fingers faith. Two Fingers faithful believe that they are fated to see a specific narrative through to the end, thus why prophets are equipped with Two Finger Seals. The Two Fingers Incantations are associated with Deus Ex Machina effects like various types of healing (Heal, Lord's Aid, etc). The narrative defies the laws of physics, as seen by the way that the blades of the Coded Sword and Cipher Pata are able to pass through the physical barrier of a shield. The narrative of the Coded Sword is "set in stone" (as in pre-ordained) which is shown literally by the blade being set into a stone hilt.

Heal // Lord's Aid // Two Finger's Prayerbook

The Two Fingers Incantations are also associated with assassins like the Confessor (Assassin's Approach, Urgent Heal) because sometimes upholding a narrative that is not based in the logic of cause and effect involves a little bit of character assassination. The Cipher Pata are found on the ground floor of the Round Table Hold, across the hall from the Assassin's Prayer book and Crepus' Crossbow, which adds to the evidence that they are a tool of assassins. These blades are not set in stone because the Two Fingers use their assassins as course correction - unpredictable events threaten the narrative and the assassins need to be more flexible in their methods to ensure that the fated path is upheld.

Assassin's Approach // Urgent Heal // Assassin's Prayerbook

Shadows/darkness are also typically associated with the assassination aspect of the Two Fingers (Darkness, Shadow Bait), and this is reinforced by the standard "Pata" weapon being found in the Shadow Lands. The Two Fingers with their language of light are paradoxically associated with Shadows because the narrative being upheld by the Two Fingers is the mythic battle of light & darkness, good & evil, Saviors & Satans. This is in contradiction with the narrative of Elden Ring which demonstrably does not have a dualistic outcome as seen in the way that there are 6 possible endings.

Darkness // Shadow Bait // Pata

As someone pointed out on this reddit post, the whetblades have text fragments on them written in this same Two Fingers script. Which means that they can be used as a lexicon to give some insight into what the code and cipher are saying. The text on the Cipher Pata corresponds to "Glintstone" and "Black", which are the blades associated with magic/cold affinity and poison/blood/occult affinities, respectively. The text on the Coded Sword corresponds to the sequence of "RedHot" "Glintstone" "Black" "Sanctified", which is a sequence replicated in the outer ring of the Two Fingers Incantation symbol.

Two further notes are that the standard Whetstone Knife from Gatefront Ruins also uses the sequence "Glintstone" and "Black" but rotated 180 degrees compared to the way that the words are written on the two blades, and also these two blades are translucent.

[the17thmuse]

no lord of forethought

Adan Thief of Fire, an ex-Fire Monk who stole a legendary incantation of Giant's Flame because he wants the real thing and not just meager scraps of a sinister prophecy.

His name bears several meanings—Adn, the base, foundation, pedestal; Adam from adamah, man made of the earth; Aiden from aodhán, the little fire.

But the only thing of note about him is his title: the thief of fire.

And even then, he is no Prometheus and defied no gods, stealing only from fellow men seduced by the ruinous Fell flame, and only for himself.

Still, a random question: did this guy being pursued by Fire Monks into Liurnia sparked more territory infringements that escalated into one of Liurnian Wars?

Did he actually live up to his name after all?

[kira-kui-n]

do we get any farmland or is it all blood swamp

[goinghollowds]

WHAT DOES IT MEAN

[goinghollowds]

I have been informed both 'special circle' and 'higher sphere' are both mistranslations, why they chose Dante's Inferno references is beyond me. Several mentions of "The Heavens" in various Hornsent Item description's are translated correctly. "The Heavens" is a more generic phrase of a higher plane (sometimes literal) and isn't always the Abrahamic Heaven of course. Does make me think, the Hornsent are highly spiritual. Are they trying to reach into the Spirit World or is "The Heavens" a separate thing?

-GH

[sillovain]

War without Grace or Honour

Part 3, some overlooked parts of the Erdtree Crusade. At present, the crusade has fragmented into several groups with conflicting aims. Yet even ignoring that, this is an army that was largely staffed by the Golden Order's undesirables. Are these people a problem to the very society they came from? Also why Crusade timeline is surprisingly solid. lore essay tag -> #treesandbeasts

1.1 Leadership

At the head of this army is a lord so accursed that an insurrection occurs when he reveals his true nature. At present, he hides in a dark tower with his loyal knights who are not found elsewhere.

I think it is wrong to solely blame the insurrection on Messmer being "cursed". Another cursed demigod - Malenia, lives her entire life in the public eye. She too has a following of loyal knights that embody her curse, but the Fire Knights are driven from their homes while Cleanrots become revered soldiers of The Shattering. Malenia enjoys a certain dignity that Messmer was never given.

Why? clearly not all curses are seen as equal. Or it could something he did. Who knows.

see. Fort of Reprimand for the aftermath of the Huw/Andres incident

The crusade's second-in-command is the only politically significant member of an extremely persecuted people. Even as an army commander, he lives outside in a shack behind the castle with one other Albinauric. While we don't know if the status of Albinurics has changed with time, there are no (known) high standing Albinaurics in modern Erdtree society. The manor servant Pidia is (apparently) as good as it gets.

Accompanying the Erdtree forces is a large Carian contingent. The warrior princess that leads them "forsook her birthright", and had to swear loyalty to the Erdtree via. ritual combat. The Carian's senior sorcerer/high priest has in turn gone off to pursue arcane mysteries for personal reasons.

1.2 Common Crusaders

The common soldier of the Crusade is a member of the "Ignoble Penal Battalion" (ie. a prisoner conscript). As for their fighting style? don't ask why it resembles the old banished king, whose people were seen as barbarians.

The Hero starting class; "descendant of Badlands chieftain" has an iron chain around the waist. Which could mean anything.

The common knight of this army is a Crucible Incantation user. This type of magic that is rare in the present day, save for Crucible Knights who seem to have become wandering mercenaries. Meanwhile, most modern knights of the Erdtree follow the Ancient Dragon Cult.

Why is this older knightly religion also shared by the very people targeted by said crusade?

1.3 Schisms

The elite Fire Knights are the disowned children of Leyndell nobility, its explicit that Messmer's reputation predates the crusade (see. Fire Knight Helmet). Among these elite crusaders, each one seems to have gone off to pursue some personal agenda in the present day. Shadow Keep's western gate is blocked by a rogue Fire Knight, who refused orders to the burn the ancient ruins beyond. His mentor was in turn left alone in a flooded cathedral, apparently practicing some sort of necromancy.

Across Shadow Keep, every depiction of their god (save for one) has been defaced. The flooded section of the keep is specifically: The Cathedral District. Also, its stated that some of the crusaders have either forsaken incantations entirely (see. Scadutree spells only found in Shadow Keep) or have secretly adopted local beliefs (see. Spiraltree Seal).

Why is Hilde enshrined atop the storehouse? think about it.

2.1 The "Long Crusade" Rant

I am just going to keep repeating that there is a canon timeline window to when the Crusade happens (its a Marika-Radagon Era event). Its also to say theories about how "the crusade put Marika on the throne" or "nobody knows about Messmer because he has born in the Land of Shadow and never left" are really baffling to me.

Messmer recognizes the player as Tarnished, he is aware of Godfrey's exile.

Ritual duels are seen as foreign to the crusaders (see. Thrusting Sheild), arenas have been closed topside. The Marika-Godfrey age is over

Shadow Keep has minor Erdtrees growing on its grounds, something that only came about after the Age of Plenty ended.

Messmer and his loyal knights were banished from Leyndell. The Fire Knights were specifically from well respected elite families, this obviously requires for there to be an Erdtree noble class with deep history.

Troops such as Perfumers and Tree Sentinels require the Erdtree religion to already exist.

At Fort of Reprimand, you can find Abductor Virgins, Rykard already has his job as inquisitor. There's also Omen Killers, hence the Omen curse cannot be a result of the crusade (the base game already states where said curse originates).

Then, you have the entire Carian contingent and specifically Commander Gaius, who was Radahn's sparring partner. Radahn is also said to have looked up to Messmer as a mentor figure. The Liurnia Wars are long over, Rennala and Radagon have adult children at this point.

Romina acquires the discarded "wings of the rot goddess", Malenia has been born and her rot has been suppressed.

Some have tried to argue for a "Long Crusade", claiming that this war has spanned the entirety of The Golden Order's history, hence the above evidence being invalid. A few reasons why I think this idea is bad. For one, there is nothing that points to the crusade being ancient history (so why argue for it be in first place?).

Next, the veil over the Land of Shadow already exists during the crusade, Enir-Ilim is protected from burning (you can see the fire's limit in the trailer, also in-game).

What's the point of hiding the Land of Shadow if soldiers across the ages have been freely marching in and out of it?

The "Long Crusade" idea also creates this bizarre scenario where the city of Belurat is somehow tougher to conquer than all Fire Giants, Ancient Dragons and nations of The Lands Between. Note that Belurat does not even have a standing army, you are attacked by civilians and priests in the city, the only arms bearing members of this society are a few Sculpted Keepers. There's is no evidence that something like a Belurat common soldier even exists.

Think about why this society had to repurpose Divine Dancers and free Curseblades from jail to fight.

The kicker is that there are "Shadow Ghosts" that preserve a record of people who died in the Land of Shadow. If there were ever an older generation of crusader or armies of Hornsent common soldiers, they have left zero evidence of their existence.

You could point to the ghosts in Shadow Keep, but its unknown what they represent.

Closing Thoughts

Messmer's Crusade is known as "war without grace or honour". It is not celebrated nor is it even remembered, all participants (both friend and foe) are abandoned and forgotten. Contrast this with the Giant's War, where Godfrey and co. are remembered as heroes for exterminating the Fire Giants, so I don't think genocide is a factor here.

I think it's important to note that the very society that started the crusade does not want to discuss it. This war is different. Why? I don't have an good answer. I just want more people to think about this part of the lore.

~ Thanks for reading

[goinghollowds]

WHAT DOES IT MEAN