realisation that Findis (Finwë + Indis) was not Finwe’s only suburban mum type naming moment lolol. He did it again with Nolofinwe. His name is Finwe Nol(doran). Nol. Finwë. Nolofinwë.
he just didn’t involve Indis for this one.
Of course Fëanor felt threatened by his baby brother being named that way… there’s a note on him worrying about his position as heir because Finwë initially named all three of his sons Finwion (later adding Curu- Nolo- Ara-), which especially makes sense when you know that “Finwë” basically functioned as a title for “King” later on (which is why Fingolfin adds a ‘fin’ when he claims Kingship).
But pasting together a name that is made up out of the elements of his own name + title Noldoran (which actually means king of all Noldor) in much the same way as Findis is Finwe Indis…. Nolofinwë.
What exactly was Finwë thinking because it might not have been the intent at all but…how else was Fëanor supposed to take it? The Noldor make fairly subtle changes in pronunciation into a political issue, naming your son from your new, improved, Valar-blessed marriage for what sounds like your own name (which often functions as a title) + the word for wisdom which just so happens to sound like the start of your official title…
This is how I would name a second child if I wanted them to fight so the strongest contender for the throne would survive lmao, which does not seem to have been the intent.
people talk about russian men the way they talk about arab men and people talk about russian women the way they talk about east asian women. does this make any sense
It does, it really really does.
Men are rendered as big and sexually animalistic and obviously subhumanly ‘backwards’, culturally, but like in a hot way(rooted in western anxieties around white masculinity and the need to ‘protect’ white women, it is intended to frame the subjects as sexual threats, jut now reinterpreted for a fetishistic western audience.) and the women are pretty, servile, sexually available and would do anything for a buck(reflective of the history of sex tourism, trafficking and exploitation that followed imperialist intervention and economic hardship in their region)
It’s not always clear-cut and binary though, one thing we can infer from things like the “his eyes have a sadness you only see in Eastern European gay porn” jokes and the theming of certain gay porn websites where the kayfabe is primarily a fantasy of financial sexual coercion of passively unwilling young former-Soviet men and how that parallels the real, historical sexual exploitation of young men(and women) by western pornographers after the illegal dissolution of the USSR(more on that), and the way muscular or otherwise gender-nonconforming women are talked about especially in primarily queer western spaces, it’s very clear that the sexually dominant/violent brute archetype and the sexually submissive/servile sexworker archetype aren’t gender-locked, especially not when you stray from the heterosexual context.
So yes, it does very much make sense. And also at least prior to WWII, East Asian men were also hypersexualised as dangerous, sexually-menacing civilisational threats(Yellow peril) before desexualized emasculation became the primary role they occupied in the western imagination, and Arab women are also often reduced to a very similar stereotype to East Asian and Russian women, so at certain points in history, it was all even more similar across the board.
The only conclusion to extract from all that is that Russophobia is simply orientalist racism applied to a Russian context, and that orientalism functions in very similar ways even when applied to different contexts.
Maekar who admires his eldest brother and really looks up to him because he is literally The embodiment of perfect heir, while Baelor totally adores his youngest brother because he bonds with Maekar more than he does with his other siblings.
Baelor physically was taller and broader than Maekar until Maekar hit puberty. But to everyone’s amusement Maekar represents as an omega while Baelor, as expected from the King’s favorite heir, represents as an alpha.
Though he is an omega, Maekar is a skilled combatant and a very confident warrior in his own prowess, more than Baelor himself. Maekar keeps beating his ass off during sparring much to their mother’s disapproval.
Myriah is visibly shameful of her youngest (because high born omegas are meant to be graceful and gentle and not the opposite) and tries everything to marry Maekar off to any lords.
So to appease his mother, Maekar requests his father to hold a tourney where any man who can defeat him in combat, may have his hand in marriage. Baelor, who is betrothed to Lady Jena of Dondarrion at that time, is opposed to this yet say nothing to Maekar since no one else can have his brother unless they have his permission.
Until the next day, Baelor appears among the other possible contenders (and suitors) in his famous Targaryen armor.
Everyone swears that’s the only time Maekar looks like a flustered maiden in public.
I would personally argue that the enduring Elvish political division in the 2nd and 3rd Ages is not "Sindar vs Noldor" but rather "Sirion vs Balar (and, uncomfortably, Amon Ereb)" -- that is, the remnants of the peoples of Beleriand who were largely isolationist vs those who -- by either choice and ability-- were not.
Notably, Sirion is the explicit destination of:
The refugees of Gondolin, an extremely isolationist polity which did not contribute to the Siege of Angband; did not respond to the Dagor Bragollach, despite their proximity to Tol Sirion; did not admit refugees; and only barely joined the Union of Maedhros. I don't give Turgon much credit for this, because as narratively dramatic as an unannounced relief force is, Turgon denied Fingon and Maedhros the opportunity to plan the battle with the addition of his forces. The western front may not have been the best place for them to be!
The refugees of Doriath, a polity which spent nearly the entire span of Morgoth's residence in Beleriand isolated behind the Girdle, and benefited immensely from the safety brought by the Siege of Angband without contributing anything to it. I am inclined to believe that, considering Thingol's stated distrust of the Northern Sindar, his ban on the Noldor entering Doriath, and the explicit notation that the refugees of Nargothrond were allowed to come to Doriath, that he was not opening his borders to anyone except them.
It is also the likeliest destination for many of the refugees of Nargothrond, who fled to Doriath after Glaurung's attack -- and after Orodreth's ascension to the throne, Nargothrond was increasingly secretive and isolationist and did not join the Union of Maedhros even at Fingon's command. After the Nirnaeth they "did not suffer" other elves to cross their lands, and Annael (Tuor's Mithrim foster-father) ends up in Balar so they were likely turning away all refugees -- and this despite Orodreth's wife canonically being Northern Sindar.
Balar, on the other hand, was the explicit destination of:
The Falathrim under Círdan, who were closely connected to both Nargothrond and the Fingolfinian strongholds in Mithrim
The Northern Sindar of Hithlum, who were vassals of Fingolfin and Fingon (under no known singular leader)
And regardless of whether you accept Gil-Galad son of Fingon or Gil-Galad son of Orodreth, it's very likely that as the seat of the High King of the Noldor, Balar was also home to the Noldorin remnants of Fingon's host that didn't (presumably) get swept up into the Fëanorian forces following the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, which at that point would have included the remnants of the Aegnor and Angrod's forces from Dorthonion, Fingolfin's forces, and Fingon's own forces.
Amon Ereb, which I think is broadly aligned with "Balar" on the "Balar vs Sirion" scale, but probably uncomfortably so (especially after the 2nd and 3rd Kinslayings), was of course host to the remnants of the Noldorin and Sindarin forces of Himlad/Himring/Thargelion, plus a large contingent of the Northern Sindar who were outriders in the plains and highlands of the northeast. The Green-elves of Ossiriand were likely split between the two camps or purposefully neutral.
How does this map onto the political landscape of the 2nd / 3rd Ages? The elven realms east of the Misty Mountains (the Greenwood and Lothlorien) are implied to have a distinctly different character from those west of the Misty Mountains (Eregion, Lindon, and Imladris) despite both being noted to have Noldor & Sindar mixing.
IMO the easiest way to reconcile this is to assume that east of the Misty Mountains, "Sirion" prevails-- this is where the "Sindar princes of the Silvan elves" (Celeborn and Oropher->Thranduil) rule, and most Noldor present are largely Gondolidrim or from Nargothrond. Any Green-elves who were incredibly opposed to the rule of the Noldor likely migrated in this direction to their ancestral homes near the Anduin.
West of the Misty Mountains, on the other hand, I assume that "Balar" largely prevails-- this is where Gil-Galad rules, and where the Sindar of Hithlum, the Falas, and the northern plains --and the remaining Fingolfinian, Dorthonion, Fëanorion Noldor, and some fraction of the Gondolidrim-- spread out in complex ways between Lindon (which encompasses remnants of both Ossiriand and Thargelion), Eregion, and Imladris. It's likely that Harlindon specifically-- one of the last remmants of Ossiriand-- is home to a large body of Green-elves who will not be parted from their homes, but who may have wildly varying opinions on Noldorin rule and ... the 1st Age in general.
(Side note: I do think this works with Gil-Galad son of Orodreth, by the way. It just requires his mother, a woman of the Northern Sindar, to be uncomfortable with her husband's isolationism and refusal of refugees and leave with her son when he's sent to foster/safety on Balar, and for Gil-Galad to identify more with his mother's people -- and by extension, the Fingolfinian and, more uncomfortably, Fëanorian Noldor with whom they had long relationships-- than Nargothrond).
wait... this post combined with these tags are making me wonder if gil-galad and/or círdan had some sort of under the table (or perhaps brushed under the rug in the new age) alliance or at least understanding with maedhros
like, elrond and elros are sent from maglor to gil-galad, celegorm saved círdan and the falathrim during dagor-nuin-giliath, like op mentioned all the noldor/northern sindar/edain not necessarily sworn to but with close ties to the fëanorians are on balar, not to mention wherever the fuck celebrimbor is at this point (probably not in sirion with the doriathrim tbh!), so there's probably diplomatic ties floating around somewhere in here!
Interesting! It's also Silm canon that a lot of Dorthonion's people ended up in Himring and joined to Maedhros's, iirc. Which would be another potential link, especially if Orodreth's people had a lot of social/kinship ties with Dorthonion rather than Nagrothrond based on geography, before Tol Sirion fell.
i do not get the sense that the guy in contact with multiple russian opposition figures and who was celebrating the maidan coup as a massive business opportunity with all his usamerican friends was a russian agent but sure everything wrong in the united states is this one guy's fault and by extension russia. i suppose blueanon is nothing if not consistent on this
Tonight in sad headcanons: I genuinely don't think the celegorm&huan relationship is reconcilable.
Like, I feel like the Huan side of this is... self-evident. Celegorm has thoroughly and comprehensively betrayed the shared values that presmably brought them together as a team. Celegorm has ceased to be the person that Huan thought he was, and no amount of repentance and groveling can resolve that.
From Celegorm's side... his best friend made a very deliberate choice to aid and abet the people trying to take possession of the work of his father's soul. The work that Celegorm, and his father, and all of his brothers, have functionally staked their own souls against the ability to retrieve. And Huan decided to help a pair of fucking strangers take that work into the impenetrable territory of people who 1) hate Celegorm & brothers and 2) are complicit in Aredhel's presumed captivity. Like, damn. I agree that luthien deserved aid escaping Celegorm, but I don't know that my best friend could do something bad enough for me to aid someone in a way that would damn them to eternal darkness, even if it was ultimately the consequences of their own choices. From celegorm's perspective Huan's choice is an absolute cold-blooded betrayal that helps to fuck over not just Celegorm, but every one of his brothers and his father as well.
I wrote a whole dang novel—as yet unpublished, but I'm working on it—about the consequences of a foolish oath. I think Tolkien was doing exactly what I was doing in my novel: criticizing, or at least exploring the consequences of, the ancient idea of the unbreakable oath. That keeping a foolish, unbreakable oath has tragic consequences, like your best friend betraying you, is kind of the point. No one could stick to their ethics in that situation and win. Celegorm and Huan were both doing what they felt was right. The thing is, Celegorm's oath was stupid.
The Sons of Fëanor took their oath in the name of the very gods who didn't want them to take it. I don't know what Tolkien thinks would happen if they abandoned their oath, but would the Valar or Eru really punish them? If so, then the gods are the problem. But I don't think so. All the Valar want is for the Noldor to repent; and only pride was stopping them. Pride that led to kinslayings and wars and murders and betrayals and your dog leaving you.
Sure? I mean, you and I clearly have very different perspectives on the noldor-valar relationship, but that's not actually relevant to the angle I was considering.
Everything you said can be correct AND ALSO Huan's actions still reflect on Huan. That depth of disloyalty in a dog makes for a dog that, quite frankly, I would be leery of letting around children. There's Huan-as-character and there's Huan-as-epitome-of-Dog, and fandom on the whole leans really fucking hard on that second aspect without ever reckoning with the fact that, in every sense but the literal, Huan turned around and viciously bit his boy/co-worker/partner.
Part of what we, as a culture/society/humans, want and value in a dog is loyalty. Your parents may neglect you and your spouse may cheat on you and your friends may abandon you but you can trust your dog.
And the plain fact is that you can't say that about Huan. And part of that is the domino effect of the oath, and part of it is Celegorm being a piece of shit! But that doesn't mean that Huan-as-character or Huan-as-dog is excused from the bare fact of his betrayal.
And only his death prevents anyone from actually confronting that.
Because, really. Do you think Beren is going to hold baby Dior in his arms, and look at a dog who savagely (if understandably) betrayed his partner of hundreds of years... and trust that dog around his child??
Jumping off the last post in this thread to spare poor OP:
@slashmarks: utilizes the Valarin thing where words directly evoke concepts to give you the feeling of somebody hammering directly next to your ear, etc etc etc
Thank you now I have found the one (1) scenario where I can see Maedhros surrendering to Aman's forces after the War of Wrath and submitting to Tial by Valar: in a situation where he can apply what Feanor taught him of Valarin with his knowledge of black speech to give every single fucking vala the migraine of Age of Arda
#tolkien#just. sheer petty bitch nonsense.#and then he still finds a way to off himself and deny the call of mandos cuz#c'mon#what “guest” of morgoth is ever going to accept imprisonment by ainu willingly?
I think he should offer to testify about Sauron's works of evil to the Aratari, since Eonwe fucking let him go. Get them to agree and convene everybody to listen to him recite vocabulary lists that make your ears really bleed.
Tulkas Yavanna etc fucking shouting, and he's blinking serenely like, "I'm not a third of the way through the list and this isn't an hour of what I endured for years, and frankly I got off lightly because I was useful. No." and keeps going.
#tolkien#won't hear the prayers of you constituents? well bitch we saved up the worst for you here have a taste#don't worry this is just the warmup i'm sure some former thralls will be ready to testify to the really gruesome stuff in time
#The thought of Maedhros agreeing to testify in his own defense solely because he knows an honest account of Angband et al#will traumatize everyone and he's actually still pissed off#is honestly very funny before you bring in “let me recite the work I was forced to do for Sauron on the Black Speech”#fandom#tolkien#he is NOT trying to defend himself - he's not really interested in defending himself#but he IS aiming to take down the entire amanyarin power establishment w/ him if he can#one way or another
@shrikeseams replied to your post “remind me to elaborate on my maedhros-as-tyr...”:
But I am going to guess a little--Maedhros as the distraction, lulling Morgoth into false security and buying time for Fingolfin to get into position? And, of course, losing his hand in the bargain?
actually no, not quite! oh god this is long.
okay Nerd Time. the conception of Týr (and the related Old English Tīw and Old High German Ziu, all derived from the Proto-Germanic *Tīwaz) as a war-god is based on three main pieces of evidence: the conflation (under interpretatio romana) of Týr with Mars, who was a war god among other things. Second, a mention from our good friend Snorri Sturluson, who says he was a war god. Snorri's interpretation (and remember that Snorri is a Christian writing a few centuries after these gods were no longer worshiped) might be based on a comment in Lokasenna, where Loki says that Týr "cannot carry well with two;" Snorri interprets that as meaning that Týr can't make peace between two men, ie, is a war god. It could also, however, mean that Týr can't carry things well with two hands. because he only has one hand. Finally, Skáldskaparmál, listing kennings for various things, lists Týr as (among other things) a battle-god and a feeder of the wolf. That last one might also be a reference to his hand and not necessarily anything else, though "feeding [ravens/wolves/etc]" does also reference death in battle.
however, there is another interpretation. Týr as he exists in surviving literature really doesn't come up much, and most of the long-form sources seem to treat the gods more as personalities than as beings with particular domains; Thor's connection with thunder, for example, is mostly his name (which comes from a root meaning thunder) and the name of his hammer (which comes from a root meaning lightning). So we absolutely don't have a clear attestation, from the period, saying something like "Týr is a god of X." That would be very convenient. What we do have attested is the following:
Týr being associated with Mars pretty widely and at times by people who worshiped him, including as Mars Thingsus, Mars of the Thing, probably using a slightly-Romanized Germanic title, something like *Þingsaz, which is also maybe the root of weekday-names like German Dienstag.
the saga Hymiskviða, which stops having Týr in it midway through with no explanation, and which really seems like it might have originally been Loki instead of Týr
the saga Sigrdrífumál, which mentions Týr very briefly in passing
the saga Lokasenna, which gives us an interesting insult from Loki that Týr cannot be the right hand of justice among the people (because he's missing his right hand) as well as the comment that Týr cannot carry well with two
Gylfaginning, in the Prose Edda, which tells the story of Týr losing his hand to Fenrir and mentions that Týr was brave and clever, and that it's good for men of action to pray to him. This is also where we get Snorri's comment that Týr can't make peace between men, immediately after he talks about how Týr has one hand.
Skáldskaparmál, as mentioned, has a bunch of kennings for Týr. Most of them reference him having one hand.
probably a couple others I'm not thinking of right now. pls forgive me.
There is another angle to interpret Týr: as an oath-god. Mars had many aspects in addition to being a war god: agriculture, Rome itself, fertility, hunting (particularly in Celtic regions); more broadly, we might say he was a god of masculinity. He was a farmer-soldier, the ideal Roman man. Mars (as Mars Quirinus) was also a guarantor of treaties and a protector of the civilian population of Rome, and generally guardian of the Roman state in its various forms. (Mars Quirinus was also associated with the deified Romulus, for the record. super important, super connected with the city and state and concept of Rome.)
Crucially to this hypothesis, soldiers would often swear oaths invoking the name Mars Gradivus, as did other people, invoking various other names of Mars. If Germanic warriors did similar, swearing oaths in the name of Týr (well, *Tīwaz, but we're going with the recognizable name), that would support an interpretation, reported back to Rome by these soldiers, where Týr and Mars were the same god.
Mars Thingsus, Mars of the Thing, is therefore not that much different from attested roles of Mars among the Romans as guardian and patron of the state; and so if Týr is Mars Thingsus, that supports the idea that Týr is more of an oath-god, law-god, justice-god, god of social institution and government and not being a lying asshole who breaks his word, than a god primarily of war. He probably did have war and battle under his bailiwick—it doesn't come out of nowhere—but so did a lot of the Aesir.
This would mean that Loki's insult that Týr cannot be the right hand of justice among the people because he's missing a hand has a lot more sting—being a god of oaths and treaties and justice is part of his domain! It also fits very neatly into the Fenrir story: Týr's hand is the sign of faith between the gods and Fenrir, which is fitting for a god whose domain includes oaths.
Unfortunately, the lacunae of history are long, and we know so little about actual, everyday, on-the-ground worship of pre-Christian Germanic gods that we can't prove anything. This whole interpretation rests on an if: if warriors made oaths invoking Týr…but we don't have evidence that they did or that they didn't. It fits with how Týr is talked about, it fits with his association with Mars, it fits with the story about Fenrir and gives it deeper significance.
uhhhhh anyway Maedhros loses a hand and has a prominent oath that he very famously keeps No Matter What. ergo: Týr.
