It's a late night, and there are many things in my head that I'd like to speak about as a longtime fan whose special interest has been WC. With that being said, I really do hope this post gets the traction it needs because there are multiple different issues I've seen in the fandom that I don't like, and I will speak on every one of them, whether it's about the fandom or in book context.Ā
Here are some potential warnings for anyone who might need them.Ā
CW:// talks of rape, sexual assault, abuse, grooming, pedophilia, self-harm, and suicidal ideations.Ā
read more beneath the picture
I would also like to preface and state that I am a long-term survivor of rape and CSA and have struggled for many years with suicide and self-harm. So these topics and how fandom people handle them especially bother and irk me.
The first issue in fandom I'd like to talk about is the unwillingness to acknowledge the sexual themes that take place in Warrior Cats, whether it is consensual or not. I get theyāre feral cats, and speaking of them in that manner is uncomfortable, but frankly that is a poor excuse for you to ignore the things that take place in these books. They may be feral, but they are heavily anthropomorphic with their own clans, religious systems and beliefs, and way of life. The books being so humanized also leaves room for many concepts, such as sex (again, whether it is consensual or not), to exist. Sex, in fact, does exist; it has in these books. Just because itās not on screen doesn't mean itās not there.Ā
There are plenty of references to this act when the queens state, āI am expecting kits" and āIām having your kits.ā āThese kits were gathered by [blank]"; sentencing along these lines all implies that sexual acts exist within these books. Crowfeather outright states, āI shouldāve never mated her!ā When talking about Nightcloud. (Which, yikes, a deadbeat and a womanizing ass.) That being said, rape and the poor representation of it are rampant issues within the books and even within the fandom. There are many instances of canonical allusions to rape and allegories of it, and Iāll be going over them.
And with many people in the fandom being young now, it is also likely to explain the different forms of rape before we actually get into the topics themselves. This is very important to me, and Iād like to be as thorough as I can.Ā
The act of rape isnāt always the act of forcible penetration, or forcing oral sex, or any other kind of act. Rape manifests in many ways, such as coercion, date rape, marital rape, stealthing, substance rape, acquaintance rape, incest, and those that occur when a partner takes back consent and the other continues anyway.Ā
> Cocieron otherwise known as pressured rape is a form of rape that takes place when the victim is manipulated or threatened into giving up consent in a non physical or violent manor.Ā
> Date rape is when rape occurs between two people that couldāve potentially had a romantic or sexual relationship.Ā
> acquaintance rape is rape that takes place between two people that know eachother but who werenāt envolved romanically or sexually.Ā Ā
> martial rape is rape that happens between a married couple where one spouse rejects intercourse or is otherwise unable to give proper consent or is unable to enforce proper boundariesĀ
> stealthing is when someone removes their condom during intercourse or damages the protection before sex. (While in this topic baby trapping is a form of rape where the person stops taking birth control or removes their protection in order to trap the person.)
> substance rape is rape that happens when one person is under the influence whether itās hard drugs or alcohol.Ā
> incest is a form of rape and sexual abuse. It is not taboo like many of you think. No sane person engages in incest. To say that they do is disheartening. Cases of Csa aside there are many reasons that may lead to why some people develop incestuous thoughts or get into incestuous relationships. The cause for why this happens isnāt always outright rape done by adults. Sometimes it manifest as Cocsa (child on child sexual abuse/assault) sometimes it can exist when parents and caregivers strip us our of bodily anatomy and donāt give us privacy. Stating that our bodies belong to them because they birthed us or because we are the same sex. I am speaking form this on experience as someone who free up a particularly strange environment and incestuous thoughts as a fleeting moment of intrusive thoughts for me.Ā
> revovoking of consent. That Rape is what happens when someone takes back consent is when a partner states that theyād like to stop and trh other continues. This one was pretty self explanatory.Ā
With all of this being said and explained, I ask that you please don't use any of what's being explained for your shitty ass antiship vs. proshipper discourse. I am exhausted of constantly seeing victims' trauma being used as bargaining chips to prove which side is worse.Ā
Now to actually move onto the topics that need to be discussed. Starting with DOTC (Dawn of the Clans), the first allusions of rape are when Turtle Tail returns back to the forest; she is pregnant and expecting kits with Tom after she went to live with him and Bumble. Turtle Tail explains how her relationship with Tom started off nice and that he was friendly but refused to make plans with her for the sake of their kits' future. Turtle Tail also explained how uncomfortable Bumble was around him, and Bumble later revealed how Tom explicitly told her to not tell Turtle Tail that the twolegs would take her kits. At face value there doesnāt seem to be anything wrong with their relationship. If you understand the many ways of allusions and allegories for rape, then you can see past the lines.Ā
To explain the passage as if they were humans, Tom is a man who befriended a woman for the sake of using her body for his own sexual pleasures and gratification. To befriend women for motives and desires behind developing a meaningful bond or relationship is a form of nonviolent date rape. You are essentially leading the woman (or person) through a process of desensitization, manipulation, and coercion. You desensitize the woman by pretending to be a stand-up human being, someone whoās caring and looks out for others while slowly introducing your toxic and abusive traits. You snap once, and the woman believes you're simply having a bad day, that she upset you, or that something else upset you and that you need space.Ā
You snap again, and the woman again blames herself because you didnāt always start out that way. You snap again a third time with more anger and violence because you know she will blame herself again because she doesnāt believe that you'd purposely perpetuate harmful behaviours because that isnāt how she met you. That isnāt what you used to do. Things are all things that Tom does, so it is essentially date rape, it is also marital rape, and it is a premeditated rape. Tom misled Turtletail under the false pretence that he was a caring tomcat, only to change his facade when he finally got sex out of her and was able to trap her with kittens.Ā
The book itself later confirms the details of what Iām saying: Turtle Tail is firm on excluding that Tom is a parent to her kittens. And firmly states that she will be the only one present in their lives when speaking to Tall Shadow. After Turtle Tail leaves the twolegs, Bumble later comes into the forest and says that Tom has been pushing her around and hurting her, and when Tall Shadow asks why heād do that, Grey Wing disgustingly assumes that Bumble is victim-blaming Turtle Tail when the only thing that Bumble responds with is that Tom was upset that Turtle Tail left. When Tom later arrives in the forest, he states that he missed Turtle Tail and how he missed their āplay fights," to which Turtle Tail responds that Tom was the only one who was playing. While Bumble outright says that Tom has been hurting her, Turtle Tail is more hesitant to actually say that, this text alludes to physical abuse and assault. Tom later goes on to describe their children as being his, his belongings, and his property. His matter-of-fact statement that these children belong to him would also be an allusion to rape, and given the fact that Turtle Tail states that she had to make plans for their future while he refused and slacked in doing so. They obviously donāt have birth control to prevent pregnancy, but it sounds as if this was an unplanned reality for Turtletail.Ā
Tom held power over both Bumble and Turtle Tail with physical stature, manipulation, and physical and emotional abuse, as well as planning to use their children as ways to control Turtle Tail and prevent her from having autonomy over herself.Ā
Turtle Tail soon acknowledges that Tom is abusive and a bully who physically assaults her. When Thunder meets Tom, Tom speaks of her as if she means little, bashing her for taking away their kittens and claiming that she "stole them." He thinks little of his children as only pawns in his possession and control over his wife.
I understand that the authors do a poor job at properly representing issues of rape and sexual assault, especially, but I feel that these hints were too on the nose about what was happening in their relationship. It is not a stretch to say that rape happens in this book series. Another common argument I see to dismiss these topics is that āit makes this series too darkā and that "it's for kids," which firstlyĀ
The series is already dark enough as it with its murder plots, genocide, torture, and maiming of cats and the amount of child death and child murder.
Calling it a kids series to dismiss this is also disingenuous to the point considering there are multiple canon pedophiles,predators and both sexual and nonsexual groomers in these books. With Thistleclaw, Sharpeclaw(?) Nettle, Rain, and Dustpelt all being cats who either hit on kits or young apprentices/ newly made warriors. The canon (nonsexual) groomers in the series would be Mapleshade(v: crookedpaw, tigerpaw), Tigerstar(v: breezepelt, his own sons), Hawkfrost(v: Ivy paw), Darktail(v: violetpaw,needlepaw,sleekpaw) and Ashfur (v: Shadowsight, bristlefrost). And slash being a predator. Slash is a pedophile as well because he harasses fern who I believe is around the age of an apprentice. Slash is described as being a tom sagging with age which means he is significantly older.Ā (V: = abbreviation of victim(s) )
I also find it disingenuous to brush off the topics of rape using the excuse ofĀ āthis is a kids seriesā considering that many children (including myself) have suffered through sexual abuse and rape. As badly as they are written I personally take comfort in reading these stories and seeing canon survivors while also projecting onto characters I take even mild interest in.Ā
Speaking of Slash, moving on, Slash, a past member of One Eye's group, arrives in the forest in search of Star Flower, who is One Eye's daughter, and Star Flower was promised to Slash as a mate. When he approached Clear Sky and Star Flower, he physically restrained her on her back and physically assaulted her, threatening to harm her kits as well. He then grossly sexually assaults her when he lickes her cheeks and left his tongue to linger on her. All while Clear Sky sits and does nothing, by the way.Ā
Another allusion to rape is when Yarrowleaf mentions that sheās having Nettles' kits. Yarrowleaf was the equivalent of a teenager when she joined the kin. This leaves room to speculate that she was being groomed by Nettle, which left the opportunity open for statutory rape to come into place.Ā And again here is a man using a womanās children and a way to control them.
Another example of speculated but slightly implied rape is when the imposter withholds Squirrelflight in this den for many days. With the texting noting that the imposter (Ashfur) is overly affectionate with Squirrelflight. These are all of the allusions to rape that I can remember. If you have anything youād like to share that you felt was implied, then feel free to comment or reblog this with your analysis.Ā
Moving onto the next topic Iād like to discuss is that Iām not very fond of the treatment of Spottedleaf regarding her CSA trauma. Grooming trauma is a far better term, considering itās not outright implied or alluded to that direct sexual abuse took place between the two, but with the many allusions that have previously happened in the books, I truly do believe that somewhere off-screen, Thistleclaw mightāve raped or sexually assaulted Spottedpaw. However, that's not what I wanted to talk about. What I wanted to talk about was the fandomās treatment of her abuse and, by extension, how many of you are treating victims. A lot of you have a very puritan mindset where you want victims to behave or cope in a manner you deem comfortable or acceptable, and that is not okay. How they choose to cope and come to terms with their abuse isnāt your business unless the coping mechanism is directly harming someone. I have seen a Spottedleaf artist being dogpiled on after someone on WC Twitter leaked their Tumblr username because the person was making vent art of Spottedleaf engaging in self-harming behaviour like self-inflicted body wounds. Which is disgusting. Again, they are not hurting anyone; Tumblr has a filtering system where you can filter out mature and explicit posts. It is rare to find those types of posts unless you are actively searching through the recent tab every day. That being said, itās also weird to think that Spottedleaf should never be portrayed in this manner; to only portray her in a light you deem positive is isolating and alienating survivors who deal with their trauma in unhealthy ways. Self-harming, substance abuse, and drinking are all typical things that victims who donāt have strong support systems or resources can and will turn to if itās to mask their suffering.Ā
Most days it's too easy to realize just how much people truly hate Spottedleaf when it comes to the aspect of her being a CSA survivor.Ā
In regard to people hating that aspect about her, I've seen way too many people who, as far as I know, aren't even victims of grooming and CSA attempt to shame those who portray Spottedleaf as a miserable and depressed old woman who engaged in unhealthy and harmful coping mechanisms such as self-harm and substance abuse. I've seen this on two separate occasions where many people bullied those who portrayed her like this, and the thing is, both the people creating these works make it obvious that the art is also comfort projections. Regardless, if it wasn't there, there isn't anything wrong with portraying her that way. And the excuse that the fandom is "filled with minors" for why they shouldn't be posting that stuff is utter bullshit. The fandom being filled with minors doesn't stop the fact that there are grown adults running around leasing witch hunts on minors on twt for having differing opinions on fictional cats.Ā
That fact doesn't stop adults from being creeps. And in general it's just a terrible and half-assed excuse because there are many underage people in the fandom who have been in this situation, such as myself. To use minors as an excuse for why someone cannot explore those themes with Spottedleaf is disingenuous of actual victims and shows you don't care. Even people being mad at Spottedleaf being portrayed as a creep is iffy to me. It virtually depends on how you're going about it, but to say it's unrealistic is annoying and also disrespectful of victims and the reality of what can happen if someoneās trauma spirals to the point theyāre repeating a cycle. I am sorry to tell you this, but people who specifically have unchecked trauma in regard to sexual abuse and rape and who don't have access to the help they need are at risk of either perpetrating the cycle again or ending up in situations as adults that leave them vulnerable for them to be sexually assaulted or raped as adults. Or it will lead to engaging in self-destructive behaviours that will cause further harm in the long run.Ā
I developed POCD, which is basically the fear of becoming a pedophile or repeating the cycle of abuse. It's also important to note that people with this disorder are the least likely to offend against any child or any person, for that matter. I'm sorry, but I love Spottedleaf in every portrayal of her when it comes to iffy and uncomfortable subjects. Seeing depictions where the abused become the abuser is an amazing representation if done correctly because it can be used as a way to help others prevent themselves from going down that same pipeline. I have seen people admit that sometimes they create art of characters where the character becomes an abuse, using it as an extension to deal with their own trauma. So, they don't fall down that same path of abuse. And I found that concept amazing.
I don't think she's canonically a predator. However, she is a little creepy; they've (the Erins) done that on purpose for reasons I will never understand. I really hate how people treat most depictions of Spottedleaf. I enjoy them all; they touch me on a deeper level as someone who has struggled for years with this trauma and is only now receiving help for it. Not all art is supposed to be comforting. If you are a victim who is disturbed, then you need to curate your own space. Nobody will do that for you. So do not go out of your way to shake and harass other victims. Donāt even harass those who arenāt victims because even then, when you arenāt a victim, sexual assault and rape are hard topics to discuss or acknowledge. Itās cruel and unjust. Itās suffering to endure it.Ā
Another point (and my last) I would like to make is how a lot of you are so unwilling to listen to victims when they give their explicit opinions and analysis on why they believe a character is abusive or harbours abusive tendencies, and no, this isnāt a welcome invitation to come start discourse in my comments or reblogs. Shut the fuck up. If you have any issues, you can personally come to my DMs and complain, and Iāll put you in your place. I primarily see these arguments where people are overly cruel to victims, either directly calling them stupid to their face or making fun of them on different social media platforms where WC's is popular. Iāve primarily seen these discourses when people who explain that their victims talk about why Bramblestar, Mapleshade, Palebird, Raggedstar, Sharpclaw, and Lizardstripe are abusive either in their relationships or in raising their children. Whether the analysis on the abuse mentions if the abuse is intentional or not.Ā
Palebird is particularly one Iām iffy about; a lot of times people are unintentionally misogynistic about her, though I definitely can understand why people wouldnāt like her given her actions. Two opinions can coexist: itās okay to sympathize with Palebird having postpartum, and the opinion that Palebird is a bad mother can also coexist. A lot of you forget that there are many neglected children who have mothers that unthinkably neglected or failed to care for them while having PPD. They cannot help how they feel. And to shame them for that is gross. This is only an issue because the person is being misogynistic and completely misunderstanding what postpartum can do to you.
Overall my point is that you people need to be more sensitive with how you treat victims and these topics as well as how you choose to represent them in your media, whether itās writing or drawings or animatics and maps.Ā
If you are familiar with the animated animal series genre on YouTube then you may or probably have never heard of this lion series called my pride. It was basically a show about a disabled lioness called ānothingā like literally the word, and she is thrown into the cruel reality of the world and the consequences surrounding pride law. I could rant about all the issues this show has but that would be incredibly wrong. One of the biggest issues with this show is its fandom, even though itās not as big anymore. There are many people that would passionately defend the abuse and toxicity of the characters to the end. There was multiple issues that went down in the discord server but what Iām about to show you occurred recently.
I will post more screenshots in the next post since thereās a limit on tumblr.
Is the clouded moon team actually hiring sagutoyas to animate for them or is it just speculation?
It hasn't been confirmed, but come on. Seeing how much the entire team has crawled over the mud to defend this groomer, I think it's obvious they want to hire/collab with her in exchange for them defending her.
Remember that Sally's main fandom was Warrior cats, she's no longer welcome there and Clouded Moon is a Warriors ripoff.
I know this is primarily a Cats the musical account but I need people to remain wary of a popular Warrior cats animator named Sagutoyas as well as other artists by the name of TIGERTWINED , TennelleFlowers and Captain Snapdragon.
Sagutoyas groomed a 15 year old up until they were 17 (Sagutoyas was an adult and was around 21 at the time of these actions) + had a group chat with 11-13 year olds where Sagutoyas would share explicit nsfw content.
Sagutoyas was kicked out of the community in 2023 when these actions were brought to light but is attempting to come back with the help of their partner, Aspenshadow and her friends TIGERTWINED, Captain Snapdragon and Tennelle Flowers.
^ the three individuals are doubling down and attempting to make the return of a literal child groomer okay because they value Sagutoyasā art / profits over victims.
If you see anyone on tumblr defend Sagutoyas, itās likely because they are going to Twitter as well in order to suck up to these disgusting people. Block and report these people if possible
not the āiām too good for warrior cats ocs so let me blatantly rip it off and make it its own bookā fandom going to bat for an actual documented pedophile
This is a reminder not to support @tennelleflowers ā¬. They are happily welcoming back Sagatoyas. This is wrongā¬ and if you donāt know the situation, please look it up because it discusses awful and triggering topics that I do not want to discuss here. Itās unfortunate that so many animators that I looked up to are turning into terrible people. :(
Tennelle also said āSome of you are scarily easily convinced that abuse is okay if "your victim deserves it."ā While I do know that twitter mob mentality can sometimes be a bit much, this isnāt one of those cases. Wanting a groomer (Sagutoyas) or her supporters (such as himself) to take some accountability for once and recognize the harm of their actions is not abuse, be so for real. but yeah, seems like heās playing the victim card for either himself or sally, canāt tell which.
Itās especially heartbreaking because I also read a statement from the victim about how much this has affected their life and mental health all these years. Itās clear as day who is the true victim of everything that has happened. Itās infuriating to see Tennelle flip the narrative and play the victim card like that, such a disrespectful thing for them to say.
More like, some people are scarily easily convinced that abusers can be forgiven if they personally consider "they've been rehabilitated".
Tenelle is willing to suck Sally's boots in Bluesky and Twitter, but god forbid you try to spread their own words on their YT channel, where most of their fans are! That's abuse towards an innocent groomer supporter!/ sarcasm
I have read that statement too, and it fucking breaks my heart. Nobody deserves to be treated like that by someone they trusted, much less at such a young age. I hope the victim knows that Sally's supporters are rotting pieces of scum that don't deserve space on their* mind.
*I cannot find this person's pronouns for some reason. Using "they/them" as neutral. Sorry!
This is a great new video about the sagutoyas situation and more people need to know about this, we cannot let these disgusting people in the fandom to have a platform like this. Please boost this and share this around. š
Tenelleflowers recently posted a new animation on his YouTube channel and heās pretending like nothing happened lol.
That's nothing compared to what they're saying on Twitter and other platforms. This post was deleted, BTW, but the screenshot is veridic.
Transcript at the end of the post.
And yet, they're using the same Warriors account to promote their Warriors rippoff, so they're still dealing with a young audience of Warrior Cats kids. The same public account where anyone can see him following, supporting and defending a child groomer from that exact fandom.
Oh, but when a fan sucks his boots about how he was their inspiration to start art school, I'm sure they do care. They puff up like a moldy apple.
Another person who doesn't know that social media is supposed to be public, colour me shocked! I guess they've never unfollowed anyone after checking up their followers list. And I guess asking someone to be an adult and not introduce the children to a groomer is too much for the tortured artist.
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Also. One of their main arguments for supporting Sagutoyas is that they believe in "rehabilitation". I'm not going to pretend that I know about how criminal rehabilitation works, because I don't, but I need you to remember a couple of things.
First, there's nothing saying that Sagutoyas has suffered any consequence, legal or not, for her actions against children. She just spent a couple of years without using her main accounts. Tenelle has no reason to believe she will not reoffend sooner or later. Wich is also why he's deleting comments about it on his YT channel, to cover up his ass.
Second, even if Sally was going through a legal process of rehabilitation, giving her back an inch of the influence she had over the exact social group she hurt in the first place is shooting yourself in the foot. You're giving the person charged for reckless driving the steering wheel of a bus.
Third, I can't confirm it, but I'm pretty sure Tenelle hasn't studied law or worked in prisons. So they're pulling shit out of his ass.
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Well, here's the best portrait you're ever going to get of TenelleFlowers, people. An adult parasite roaming on children's spaces who feeds on them as consumers while he publicly supports a groomer. Can't wait for them to pull out the disabled/queer card to defend themselves, honestly.
And don't worry, we'll get to the other pests of StarCats Studio. They have their own shit to cover.
Transcript of the tweet by Tenelle: Haven't been in the Warriors's fandom for years. Who I follow online is nobody's business. And your disappointment means nothing to me. I don't know you.
Your parasocial behaviour is not a healthy mindset to find towards any creators. And I am not a babysitter for children online.
Tennelle also said āSome of you are scarily easily convinced that abuse is okay if "your victim deserves it."ā While I do know that twitter mob mentality can sometimes be a bit much, this isnāt one of those cases. Wanting a groomer (Sagutoyas) or her supporters (such as himself) to take some accountability for once and recognize the harm of their actions is not abuse, be so for real. but yeah, seems like heās playing the victim card for either himself or sally, canāt tell which.
Itās especially heartbreaking because I also read a statement from the victim about how much this has affected their life and mental health all these years. Itās clear as day who is the true victim of everything that has happened. Itās infuriating to see Tennelle flip the narrative and play the victim card like that, such a disrespectful thing for them to say.
More like, some people are scarily easily convinced that abusers can be forgiven if they personally consider "they've been rehabilitated".
Tenelle is willing to suck Sally's boots in Bluesky and Twitter, but god forbid you try to spread their own words on their YT channel, where most of their fans are! That's abuse towards an innocent groomer supporter!/ sarcasm
I have read that statement too, and it fucking breaks my heart. Nobody deserves to be treated like that by someone they trusted, much less at such a young age. I hope the victim knows that Sally's supporters are rotting pieces of scum that don't deserve space on their* mind.
*I cannot find this person's pronouns for some reason. Using "they/them" as neutral. Sorry!
I feel compelled to warn you guys about this, since WC is the fandom I'm most involved in. Some of you may know "Sagutoyas" (You can find he
leaving this post here. PLEASE spread around. i dont engage with this hellhole of a fandom anymore but im sick of seeing groomers wiggle their way back onto the internet like nothing happened.
also important to know, artists like Tennelle Flowers, Snapdragon and TIGERTWINED are in full support of her return and are blocking everyone who condemn them for supporting her
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