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@innerpeacebarbarian
media literacy would automatically go up 100% if people knew how to consume stories without self-inserting themselves into the characters' shoes. "if i were him..." you're NOT. you may relate to his story, his past, his traits, his quirks, his identity but the moment you start treating the story accepting what you feel/think as what the character feels/thinks, you're misunderstanding the story.
Dunno if this is weird comparison but for some reason Ryubei reminds me of MCU Thanos (well I watched W after MCU). I mean other than a goal to eradicate a good portion of humanity to prevent their extinction, they both sacrifice their children by throwing them from heights to further said goal, and also pitting 2 sisters in an intense rivalry where one of them got horribly mistreated.
Huh. I never saw it that way but I guess you're right
And honestly both sets of sisters got treated horribly just in a different sense from each other. One was emotionally neglected despite being the more loyal one and was ultimately discarded; the other was more spoiled/liked but in the end was just a tool to get what they desired
I feel like this is Takahashi's justification for redeeming terrorists left and right in his shows lol.
Although, from a collectivist society's standpoint, I can see why this is a very good lesson to impart as standing out is almost always viewed as a sin sometimes even more looked down upon than the literal taking of a single life.
Does not mean I have to like it.
Hmm... late reply, but I have something to say regarding this (I wrote the summary first above, but there's a more elaborate explanation in the Read More section, though long).
This isn't merely one writer's justification, but a legitimate idea/approach.
I think it's something important to distinguish between the person and the bad deeds.
In opposing injustice, there's a difference between "giving up my claims for personal revenge and retribution" to "stopping them from causing further harm" or "letting justice be done for their wrongdoing". Hating people usually contributes to the former, while hating the sins tends to contribute to the latter two.
Summary:
Hating the person can lead to double standards in evaluating them or their actions based on personal feelings.
One may make excuses for those they like but condemn those they dislike even if both sides have similar misdeeds.
One can hate someone not only for being bad but also for various reasons, such as jealousy or annoyance.
And one can justify atrocities to anyone they hate regardless if they're bad/actually deserving or not.
One can dehumanize bad guys as inhuman 'monsters', separating them from other people or even relatable bad guys.
Everyone has a capacity for evil, even ordinary citizens in the right circumstances, not only the bad guys.
Hating sin but not sinners is about discouraging the act of sin itself, not only to stop bad guys from continuing their crimes but also to prevent anyone from doing the same.
This approach addresses the root causes of evil in anyone (e.g. inequality, economy, vices) regardless of who they are.
Not being out for blood against bad guys ≠ condoning them. Fighting crime is more complex than 'just punish harsher'. Punitive approaches don't necessarily build empathy.
It's still necessary to apply force to them, even a lethal one, but the primary aim is to neutralize them, not catharsis.
Ruby being just as bad as the villains for Tyrian's tail baffles me. The whole "You're too good to kill me, the main villain who would literally do everybody a favor by dropping dead" trope has been maligned for damn good reason. There are still Avatar fans who dislike Aang's ultimate decision bein not exactly but still similar to said trope. Yet NOW it's being embraced with open arms just to take the mickey out of RWBY?
They really don't have standards, do they?
Yup, its been rightly considered bullshit for a long, looong time, but RWDE will one hundred percent embraces the dumbest of dumb tropes if it means they have an excuse to insult the show.
Honestly at least with Aang it could be said to be fairly well set up, IE his belief system and culture with him being the last member of that belief system and culture making it all the more integral he hold onto it. And that's without considering he's like 13.
It could have been done better, but it at least was coherent.
It honestly shows that they don’t understand the context or circumstances of either.
For Ruby, regardless of whether or not she would be adverse to taking human lives, isn’t someone who would just let the bad guys get away with hurting innocents or the people she cared about.
Hell, Aang, while he wouldn’t kill his opponents, would still actually FIGHT to protect people.
Even Bruce Wayne BATMAN (when he isn’t being written by a nutcase), who has a “no killing” rule, DOES NOT allow criminals or villains to get away with their crimes or deeds.
I don't understand why compassion here is viewed as contradictory stuff to one's fighting or capabilities.
Even those who praise them or similar characters as "willing to get the job done" describes it as "knows when to be kind/nice and when to be 'ruthless'"..... why isn't it being kind too to prevent innocents being hurt and protect them smh.
(KR Geats) Suggestion to keep Sara's role but more concise
Main post | Geats cast moments
Using 2 whole episodes for her role as a beacon (ep. 34-35). Like Jamashin Buffa's Rider hunting outside to the main cast being done only in ep. 33 (I thought his Rider hunting will last for some time for his prominence as a winning antagonist)
Then have her killed in next episode (ep. 36). The following just show how the main 2's final form is obtained (ep. 37). While trying to keep things mostly intact (to test how much can be cut, so no stuff like removing Daichi entirely), it'd be like:
Looking forward for these in KR Geats if it has more/enough time
Main post | Sara's role
Mainly about Yearning arc onwards due to the padding there.
In general, more time to add more interactions and dynamics, as there's feelings of the cast being still disconnected at the end. When it happened, there were good chemistries (e.g. core trio in ep. 22), but it being shown more towards the end can likely give less impression of them "never getting along" or "growing out of Rider infighting" or such.
KR Geats' production conflict
There are some who said that the final quarter of the show feels cramped/rushed, and I was also worried when Geats is ending, not due to wanting it stay or have "season 2" or such, but because it never gave me the feeling that the series is almost done wrapped even at ep. 38 (so extended series after ending/"season 2" won't work on this either).
Well, I know dwelling on it won't do anything, but I guess I've found the likely reason that it feels that way, so at least there's closure for me. The reason seem to be this decision (from this link):
Takebe wanting to Sara's screentime as the beacon of light, which primarily affects how pushed forth Keiwa's heel turn was, which Takahashi planned earlier. But I think the series as a whole got slowed down in the middle for this, in Yearning arc that focuses on Sara's stint as Hakubi in DR, and the first few episodes of Genesis arc.
So overall, ep. 34-40 of the series (it's said too above Keiwa's heel turn is pushed to forties). May also explain why the primary Rider (by extension the others) gets final form really late compared to usual.
The series did get concluded without being left hanging much, thanks to Ace's powers despite the stakes, and the cast do get closure, which dispelled some of my worries, but there are handful moments I want to see in the series listed in link below:
Looking forward for these in KR Geats if it has more/enough time
Though after all of this, don't get me wrong, this isn't a hate for Sara. Reject Kekera's view of her as an expendable story element instead of a person, and fans who wished the same "for Keiwa's sake" (e.g. going dark for his "success").
By filling in Sara about the DGP (as Hakubi), she did become a beacon to raise the morale of the conflicted Keiwa and Neon, fighting for the latter's happiness to encourage her believing in her fans and her authenticity as a person. I think this'd be some of my suggestions to keep her role but not taking too long in middle:
(KR Geats) Suggestion to keep Sara's role but more concise
Though dunno if the initial plan will still have Yearning DR created or not, but to instead kill Sara off at the end of JGP. There are required plot progression done in Yearning arc like Ace and the DGP team figuring out the Goddess. Keiwa's next schemes and Bujin Sword debut also needs Tsumuri's role to be known, as his means to the end, his "shortcut".
Here shows Da-Paan with Nadge-Sparrow, the latter actually making an appearence as early as ep. 3.
Hello @innerpeacebarbarian. I'm responding to you in a separate untagged post. Forewarning, I may misinterpret some of your points to be different, English is not my first language so there might be things lost in translation.
People prefer straightforward answers, hence they love to take things at face value.
Going by your logic, almost all Kamen Riders and Super Sentai teams are anti-heroes? A lot of the Riders and Sentai kill, their Rider kicks and their respective finishing moves have been known to kill people, evil people, but are still people.
It is in the name after all "Finishing Move."
Best example is Kamen Rider Drive. Some Rider fans have classified, albeit jokingly sometimes, that Drive is a criminal because of the amount of Roidmudes he has killed without following due process. Is he an Anti-Villain now?
To me, anti-villain feels like a new term that came up so as not to categorize their favorite character as an outright villain. The distinction between hero and anti-hero is important because the anti-hero does all the dirty work while a normal hero has squeaky-clean hands.
A distinction between villain and anti-villain seems redundant as a lot of villains have some good intentions, or have extremely good intention, almost always quoting the words "for the greater good" to justify their actions.
How do you classify Ace, then? Is he a hero? an anti-hero? a villain? an anti-villain?
Earlier you put more emphasis on a character's good intentions and how they can be categorized based on those good intentions and actions.
Tell me, how would you classify one Ace Ukiyo then?
The post was a reaction to a myriad of posts pinning a lot of things to Keiwa's actions, like the kidnapping of Neon, or the death of his parents the second time around, or even the myriad of property damage that happened when the gang riders were wreaking havoc in the city.
It was not about how "not killing" makes Keiwa "still a good person" but rather by enumerating the actual crimes Keiwa has committed, it'd debunk some of the more outrageous crimes they pin on Keiwa, like the breaking out of the inmates.
Redemption arcs start out that way, they start with someone sympathizing with the villain hence the post "trying so hard to redeem" of course that hasn't materialized thus not being redeemed, however, the same way they did with Azuma, and Isuzu, it started out with one of the main four sympathizing with them Ace with Azuma, and Neon and Ace with Isuzu.
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Reading all your replies, I am getting the gist that you're so, hellbent on properly categorizing each character into neat boxes. The main moral the writers are trying to instill in children, in relation to their society, is how they shouldn't condemn the person but condemn the sin, they are a collectivist society.
It's better for anyone's mental health not to do as you run the risk of labeling their actions as black and white, pure and impure, clean and dirty and the like.
A character's actions are done with a lot of context behind it. The character's mental state, the character's emotional state, what was their recent experience prior to taking that course of action.
Simply saying "actions are more important than words" and "actions are more important than intentions" is leaving out the context behind the actions.
For example, we know stealing is bad, stealing anything is bad. There are siblings who were so hungry so he stole food from a local shop and ran for it. Is the thief a bad person, they did steal?
But the intention was to feed their other siblings so they could survive another day.
By how you replied, you have stated that no matter his intentions were, he still stole some food and should be labeled as a "bad person"
Again, I may have misinterpreted your words due in large part that English isn't my first language.
@tokudocu
Going by your logic, almost all Kamen Riders and Super Sentai teams are anti-heroes? A lot of the Riders and Sentai kill, their Rider kicks and their respective finishing moves have been known to kill people, evil people, but are still people
Nah, just because a hero has killed, doesn't mean that they're anti-heroes. The difference between murder and kill. Heroes can kill, but not willingly, as a last resort when it’s necessary. They usually aim to not take this measure, and if they do, they are usually remorseful. Typically superpowered villains leave them no choice but to kill them though (necessary variant), in defense of themselves and/or others, unlike normal humans.
Character/people should be looked as a whole of their good deeds/traits vs their bad deeds/traits (and taking into account of context, intent and situation, e.g. for killing, was it in cold-blood or out of self defense?), not cherry pick certain ones.
Morality is more complex than "[...] is bad so everyone who does [...] is bad". No one is morally perfect, but someone who stumble and fail to adhere to their morals once in a while doesn’t necessarily make them anti-heroes (e.g. if they’re forced by situation to not adhere to their principles, like forced to kill in self-defense/defense of others), they’re still outright heroes if they try to better/not repeat otherwise, and even better if they show remorse for it.
Anti-heroes would be those who embrace those dark, unheroic qualities - while still overall good person, they keep performing these moments of moral failure (e.g. they keep only doing selective justice to only protect their loved ones but leave others to their fate - different from not being able to save someone in time) repeatedly, not just once or few times, and having little remorse/no attempt to avoid that or become better. Thus their dark traits are prominent part of their characters too, not only something that comes up once in a while.
People's alignment can change, and can change more than once too. But alignment isn't changed solely by single/few actions that differ from their usual characterization, it's something recurring and consistent. If they were genuinely good before turning into a bad person, then it's a case of heel turn. But they'd be straight up villainous from the beginning when they just did good deeds to maintain a two-faced facade before revealing their true colors.
I’m not refering to Ace, but just character/people in general that yes, there are well-intentioned extremists that quote the word “for the greater good”
I’m not actually refering to Ace here (more below), but following above, people’s alignment can change. He was anti-heroic in the beginning cuz he’s genuinely good and helpful to people but has no qualms being underhanded to achieve his goals, to the point of endangering someone. But later he changed to be straight hero cuz he stops pulling those tactics, especially when aiming to making literally everyone happy.
To me, anti-villain feels like a new term that came up so as not to categorize their favorite character as an outright villain.
A distinction between villain and anti-villain seems redundant as a lot of villains have some good intentions, or have extremely good intention, almost always quoting the words “for the greater good” to justify their actions.
It’s not a new term. Anti-villain is the opposite of anti-hero (just like villain to hero). Anti-hero means heroes with unheroic qualities. Anti-villain means villains with redeeming qualities. Anti-villain is still a subcategory of villain, their actions shouldn’t be downplayed. But they’re, morality-wise, lesser evil compared to the worst scumbags due to those redeeming traits. They obviously can cause more damage than outright villains though, but it’s more of power/capabilities talk.
Earlier you put more emphasis on a character’s good intentions and how they can be categorized based on those good intentions and actions.
Where? The anti-villain one? It’s only in comparison to outright villains (but there can be other redeeming traits for anti-villain than good intentions). And no I put more actions than intentions, I’m saying that someone that has good intentions but bad actions/methods are anti-villains, I’m saying that those are still bad guys cuz anti-villain is a subcategory of villain. My point here is that good intentions don’t necessarily make one good person, but I’m NOT refering to Ace, but to your Obito example there, the difference being that Ace actually did good while Obito did bad things to achieve it.
There are siblings who were so hungry so he stole food from a local shop and ran for it. Is the thief a bad person, they did steal?
But the intention was to feed their other siblings so they could survive another day.
By how you replied, you have stated that no matter his intentions were, he still stole some food and should be labeled as a “bad person
Looking for this action alone (as you don’t talk about how’s that thief as a person as a whole), this is an anti-villain example. They did something bad to steal, but it’s done for good intentions to feed their siblings.
This is the reason though why someone shouldn’t immediately kill anyone on the “bad side” (but still acknowledge this as bad action), there are other methods to deal with someone bad than finishing them off (particularly if the thief is normal human), like for this case, he might be try to be reasoned, suggesting better solution to look for better methods to take care of their siblings (because ofc, stealing isn’t the only way to feed them) or they should try to improve their situation so that he won’t resort into this again.
It’s better for anyone’s mental health not to do as you run the risk of labeling their actions as black and white, pure and impure, clean and dirty and the like.
A character’s actions are done with a lot of context behind it. The character’s mental state, the character’s emotional state, what was their recent experience prior to taking that course of action.
I fully know that the world isn’t all black and white, but I think every spectrum of morality exists. White, grey, and black all exist, AND also many shades of grey. Even if one leans more into grey category, they can still fit into good or bad, based on which traits outweigh. I think anti-hero and anti-villain term is important regarding these distinction, and yeah there are many shades of grey, there can be sliding scale of anti-heroes and anti-villains, more mild and severe variants each. There can be many variants of either too.
A but different from other Riders, Keiwa doesnt seem to be the type forgive and forget.
I feel that actually, it's something more common than you think, for main Rider-type of characters displaying anger and intimidation towards someone else, if you'd think Keiwa being upset to Daichi making him this example. Like, Shinji has been angry to every single Riders before. Though at least, Yuya has made other non-forgive and forget type in how Emu reacted to Kuroto and Aruto reacted to Gai (the only good part of his "redemption").
opinions on the Geats cast now and what are your hopes for the endgame.
I'd think that Ace is a good example of how making someone mysterious while being also an active player in the story. His mystery is compelling and personally is a good hook to the story, though the series starts to really get into that midway, with early on his presence isn't felt by some, thinking that other Riders feel more like main.
Personality wise, I think he's an example of being arrogant without looking down on others, unlike people such as Tendou or Tsukasa, though he can still seem insufferable. Thought at first he's more Sento or Haruto type, until ep. 8 of which it's shown that he's more ruthless type like Tendou and Tsukasa, not that it's not unexpected.
His abilities are showcased well and entertaning, in his battle capabilities and skills in battlefield, or his abilities to turn things into his favor without feeling out of place, as everything is nicely set up, like the "asspull" of Boost Mark II from his previous reincarnation's wishes, though I personally not a fan of his ep. 1 fight much of charging with guns.
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Some of the boy scout type of characters have the writing only focusing on them being good to others alone, but at least for Keiwa, it's addressed as something problematic that he lacks aspirations, which is something to look forward in how he can grow from that. It actually can causes him to be unwittingly inconsiderate on what's good for others in their lives, and the show actually addressed that as something faulty for him.
Eventually he developed into understanding that everyone has a right to make their own wishes and cling into it in how important it can be, while he has more clear goal but doesn't mean straying away from his helpful nature, reviving the Riders who died in the game due to not liking seeing them dying.
He's a tanuki and thus he should be a trickster, like Ace. And it eventually happened in the show when he tricked Girori into exposing himself and I'm glad for that. But I also would want to see more of that, becoming something more consistent of him (but not underhanded) particularly when the show sets him up as Daichi the schemer's main enemy.
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In the first episode Neon seems similar to victim of the week, though ofc promoted as a Rider, but I began to feel that there's an effort in writing her for her first 2 parter in ep. 3-4, in how her home life is depicted and shot in the series. I like that her development in that episode stays consistent that she stays a capable fighter, though it's less prevalent nowadays as her along with Keiwa lacks upgrades for now.
Not a bad thing, but her arc later also resembles some of the KR franchise's staples, like her learning the circumstances between how she's made into a Rider being a pawn for others (nepotism, and unknowingly Kousei wants to have her marry future people), and how she has an existensial crisis over her origins (which happens to many other major girl characters in KR franchise). Something I like though is that, her depression doesn't immediately end after Beroba's doxxing, she's still processing through it.
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I like how in the series, Michinaga's attitude is portrayed as a shortcoming, with him actually being held back from it, for something like, being a hostile loner or a buffalo who makes rash decisions and is stubborn, with other characters also calling him out for it. I'd also rather if Beroba gets more credit in his victory over the JGP too.
I also think his character has been consistent, in how his callousness steers him, where he's established as thriving over Riders' predicaments and deaths, and not giving a damn about civilians, of which him having more standards as a DGP player isn't done due to caring for them, but to not make himself similar to the Riders who left Toru for dead (albeit he has been hypocritical), and later when needed, he'd have no qualms attacking or murdering Riders, or even some civilians, it's not him being corrupted by Jamato Buckle or such. He just didn't care, and if he has good intentions, it's solely end justifies the means type.
I'd also think that his sense of honor play contrasts Ace, of which while a dirty player, Ace looks out for people more and is genuine in helping them. Michinaga has a code of honor, and will punish the Riders whose cruelty, like his views towards them, is clear in his eyes like Morio and Daichi, but it only diminishes his cruelty like, "I'd want to dispose someone in upfront way, not in backstabbing way", and he oftentimes still doesn't act to stop that cruelty, leaving them be, like when Beroba doxxes Neon.
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I thought Tsumuri has rather small screentime and presence, outside of the 2nd DGP, kinda like... Sophia in Saber, though it doesn't damage the series, and that she's getting more recently. Even moreso for Sara, who obviously, gets more recently as Hakubi.
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Niram is an interesting and charismatic higher up with his antics and worldview, by contrast Girori feels wooden and he lacks foresight in his actions. Chirami is even worse with him being utterly dumb though it's an intentional part of the story rather than unnoticed. Win is a fun adversary, though he feels less competent than he lets on IMO, and has tragic parts, dunno how they're taking his direction now. Samas has the worst lack of presence IMO, only revolving around Niram.
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The supporters are all screwed up due to how future life is, though they get believable development, with Ziin learning the value of life, and Kyuun learning to vocalize his feelings. Not yet for Kekera now. Beroba is an effective and competent villain who is used well to be threatening, and she's not kidding in how much she wants to see misery.
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There are perhaps wasted extra Riders with how easily they're dying. Would say for eariler villains Kanato serves as a good contrast for Neon, and Morio moves Keiwa and Michinaga's characters forward. Ittetsu's character is all about his age, including in the reason he protects people. Sae feels like bringing girls rule boys drool though her last moments with Neon is nice. Daichi feels wasted though despite his extended screentime, him joining the Jamato is useless though he had a successful plan, and his demise is just a repeat of Morio's.
Was this scene early on in the series an indicator that Keiwa can be eventually as crafty as Ace? Fitting tanuki motif.
Keeping your boots on the bed won’t help your case, Tokime. Even Philip still took off his at episode 1.
Casuality Celica for Kamen Rider Kiva’s 1st fight :(
Unpopular opinion but every single ‘anti hero’ is fucking annoying and all they do is go around killing for the funnzies and make unfunny jokes. Eg. Harley Quinn and dead pool
But Harley Quinn isn’t even an anti-hero, she’s just a villain. You like many people misunderstand what anti-hero means. They’re heroes (so they must do good deeds) with more unheroic qualities (like selfishness or violent) than traditional heroes. Example is Wolverine.
Ouja suddenly forget how he got his guard vent, against one of his most hated enemy no less!
you know when people are so obsessed with making a villain seem not as villainous (because they love the character) that they actually interpret the character as being way more boring than in canon?
