âWhile [Thrawn] likes art and studies it, he doesnât really have an appreciation or understanding for the emotional value of it, for what probably drives the creation of art, whatâs inside the minds of these people. Heâs just a manipulator. I donât think art is something that he would really aspire to himself. He appropriates things. He takes them and uses them, often against the very people that made the art or the statement.â
â Dave Filoni, episode commentary on Star Wars Rebels, Season 4 Episode 10, âJedi Nightâ (via glompcat)
Well, something definitely changes between Botajef and Lothal, thatâs for sure.
Art was always a way for him to demonstrate his superiority. Even in Legends, he loved art, but it wasnât about the society that created it, it was about the pretentious analysis and how intelligent it made him feel.
#heâs a fanboy mansplainer
lmao - savage but not entirely wrong
Interesting view to say the least. But both Legends as Rebels never say he doesnât like art. Heâs a tactician who knows what to use to manipulate a civilisation and heâs not wrong. Culture, religion⊠are all sensitive subjects in our world. If you make their God say theyâd surrender, they will. If they have a weakness theyâll express that in folklore and Thrawn knew. He is more than intrigued, so he cares about art! More so, his art is warfare. Art leaves a mark on a culture and war is his paintbrush. Thrawn loves art in a way to make the world his canvas. War as art! Art is expression! He is the one who replaces other art with his own! Therefor he cares, but only what he creates. -just a fangirl who read âthe thrawn trilogyâ and beyond
Art is used to as a celebration, a criticism. We look at art and we try to find meaning both within the artistâs message and our own lives. Thrawn does not reflect. Instead he uses the art as a means to an end, even worse, he uses these peopleâs expressions and celebrationsâŠ. Their cries for acknowledgement and help to subdue, to shackle, to erradicate the creators. (ah, the beauty of imperialism)
Yes, I agree a bit with what you are saying. I believe he thinks heâs an artist, but his canvas is people. What Thrawn is too arrogant to understand is that war is not an art form. Yes, there is perhaps an artistry in strategy, in the performance of a perfect manuever. I believe he thinks he is creating some sort of warriorsâ version of minimalism. But letâs be honest, War is bloodshed and pain. It is thousands and millions of lives lost because of the intent of the few. While he so called âappreciatesâ art it is only to silence the voices of the downtrodden. Another way he does this is through the mentoring and manipulation of the people around him, subtly bending their wills to his own in order to furnish his pygmalionesque fantasies. He may think he is an artist, but he creates nothing. He only destroys.
I feel like thatâs not right. Thrawn is consistently trying to minimise casualties in his strategies. To him, the best plan is one in which he or his men donât need to fight or be sacrificed at all. To this end, he joins the Empire, so that Chiss lives might be spared.Â
We see this in the Thrawn novel as well. He doesnât kill innocents if he doesnât have to, he goes out of his way to come up with roundabout plans instead of charging in head first because he doesnât want to murder everyone. He went down and talked to Nightswan personally so he wouldnât have to kill anyone. He feels regret in the extract above that he couldnât understand a people sooner and had to destroy them. In the excerpt below, Thrawn is mentally mourning the loss of these reefs before he even destroys them. He appreciates art and its value in all forms.
In the Thrawn novel, he returns a ship full of art stolen by Governor Quesl to Botajef and simply takes digital copies. Heâs not a destroyer but he can be. And in the Heir to the Empire series, that is what he becomes because the alternative is destruction by the Yuuzhan Vong, which indeed wipes out half the galaxy later on.Â
Thrawnâs art of war is strategy and tactical analysis and requires a truckload of empathy to interpret different species, their art, their culture and yet enough pragmatism and discipline to follow through on even the most difficult decisions. This is what sets Thrawn apart as a military leader. He understands his enemy, their thoughts, their emotions, but he isnât affected by them. If he has any sympathy or compassion, they are secondary to his one true goal - total victory. Because winning isnât winning if you lose all your men, resources and assets which is why the Rebel Alliance had such trouble pinning him down. Theyâre all about the big shows of bravery and self sacrifice but you canât do that to a man that doesnât want direct confrontation.Â
Thrawn never engaged Luke Skywalker, Leia or Han directly because he knew that was a bad idea. He kept Câbaoth around because he ensured the safety of the Imperial Remnant in combat despite the risk. He used ambush tactics when fighting the New Republic. Swooping in, taking what he needed and vanishing without a trace. He used intimidation as a tool but never as a crutch. Heâs not a bloodthirsty war mongerer but thatâs also what makes him so dangerous. He will never approach you directly like in Rebels unless he has the upper hand (i.e. ysalamiri or an army at his back). Thrawn summoning Ezra to his office alone. Thrawn going down to Atollon personally during a battle. These are mischaracterisations made by Dave Filoni and are part of the reason the finale is so hollow and unconvincing to me.
I suppose I am a consequentialist, and while I understand that his intent might be one thing, but that his actions speak for who he is (the road to hell and whatnot). One of the themes in the new Thrawn novels is intention versus action/decisions. And ultimately he is, and chooses to be, an Imperial.
I do agree that whatever sympathy and compassion he has, and I do think he has it, but as @cystemic said, it takes a backseat to his goal, and I also think, his ego.
Again, his appreciation of art, even in that panel, seems to me to be about an intellectual appreciation, furthering his intellectual understanding rather than an emotional appreciation. In the 2017 novel he wants to save livesâŠ. What he refers to as assets. (Iâm not convinced that the loss of lives is the sole thing that bothers him. It could be that the loss of lives mars his âartistic visionâ. Like he didnât do his job, or missed the high score on some game rather than the lives themselves.) He likes artâŠ. Which is about expression, but at the same time wants to silence voices (when talking to Nightswan he speaks of how too many cause chaos and if that isnât antithetical to artistic vision, I donât know what is).
Basically heâs a walking mess. (He pretty much is going through an ethical crisis throughout the entire book culminating in the throne room scene.) But thatâs why we love him.
I think we have very different interpretations of this character. Thrawn never questions his goals, motivations or methods. His journal entries are succinct and written as if stating truth. There are some considerations but he rarely questions his own actions. Even when facing the Chiss Admiralty, he knows their decision, he knows the outcome and he goes willingly. He accepts that he is to become Imperial way before he leaves Chiss Space. He may even suspect what he will eventually become but that doesnât stop him. He does not waver from his convictions, even in death.Â
âIt was so artistically doneâŠâ He regrets only that he could not finish his masterpiece - the fall of the New Republic, the unity of the galaxy and the defeat of the Yuuzhan Vong, cut short by Jedi meddling on Honoghr.Â
Thrawn is as far away from âa walking messâ as can possibly be. His entire life has been calculated down to the millisecond, he foresees the Death Starâs inability to contain unrest in the galaxy. The only question in Thrawnâs mind is whether the Emperor plans to use this weapon against his people. He is prepared for even the most minute of situations and if weâre talking about ego? He let himself be exiled and lived on an uninhabited planet for months without complaint. He let three punks beat him up at the Academy and didnât seek retribution, instead expanding their horizons. He endured years of racism and classicism on Coruscant and in the Imperial hierarchy and didnât talk back, didnât give in to anger, ego or vanity. He did what had to be done.Â
Filoniâs version of Thrawn has us believe he enjoys taking what belongs to other people, manipulating and scheming and toying with the rebels, particularly Hera, with a sadistic joy. He leaves Pryce in charge when she has repeatedly betrayed him and proven her incompetence. If you donât read the novel, you would think Thrawn is responsible for the gigantic death toll on Baton. He even takes Ezra up to his office alone despite all the warnings from Palpatine and what he knows of Anakin Skywalker. He treats art like a prize, like a collector. When in HttE, Thrawn basically just had holograms of everything. And logically, where would he keep it when Imperial ships are so chock full of weapons and ships?
In the Thrawn novel, his only possessions are pieces of Clone Wars tech, which he restores to function and gets complained about. Any references to art, he views on his datapad or through Imperial databases. Weâre never told that heâs been to a museum. And the incident on Botajef was a prime opportunity to steal some art and get away with it. He didnât. He didnât silence the Governorâs voice either but let him reveal his own hypocrisy.Â
In every situation, Thrawn predicts what is coming or a variant of it. His analysis of art has to be on some level an emotional one. A man devoid of empathy would just see chicken scratch with no value and destroy it. The Cyphari even point out that this is the case of most Imperials. They donât ever stop to consider the people, the histories or the culture of other planets. Thrawn could not do this without empathy, along with intellectual analysis.
We are reminded through his conversations with Eli that Thrawn is always thinking about his next move, making assumptions and plans for the future. He isnât having an existential crisis. Not even Filoniâs Thrawn second-guessed himself. He always confident, pragmatic and calm. The absolute anti-thesis of âa walking messâ lol. Bitch, he flawless, just trying to save a galaxy that donât want his help :(
Yes. We definitely have different interpretations. I see a character falling further and further from grace/his goals with every decision he makes. With the culmination of taking that Grand Admiralâs plaque in the throne room and further loss in the new book. (Pragmatic and calm (on the outside)⊠ConfidentâŠ. Not so much). And as the Zahn novels progress I think heâs turning into the character Filoni portrayed him as. His moment of second guessing⊠Well, thatâs what that moment with the Bendu was all about. But, both of these interpretations are canon so somehow there has to be some continuity. (And honestly I prefer Filoniâs season 3 drama queen to Zahnâs talk softly Thrawn, and his journals come off as a bit melodramatic to me. Like some person trying really hard to be a philosopher, when theyâve only read a little bit of Nietzsche.).
Then again, Iâm a sucker for a tragic hero/anti-hero/villain
Also, ego is perhaps not the right word? Or I have a different connotation (this happens a lot). The people at the academy donât matter. They are just a learning exercise. He tends to push his weight around a bit with people who do matter. Itâs subtle, but he does it. He also makes judgements on people and has a tendency to manipulate others to where he wants them. Yes, itâs strategic, but also to do this takes a certain sense of superiority. He chooses Eliâs life path for him. (Also heâs giving advice about being a warrior and leader? Dude has probably been in 0 wars.)
Thrawn discource is the best. I like how we can have two totally different opinions of him. đđđ Mine just drinks on the job⊠Lol.
