You made it clear torture is not an efficient way to get information. I wonder, does that apply to people who have been trained to endure it, like soldiers? If I go by my personal example, even the mere threat of mutiliation would make me tell even things they didn't ask for...
OKthe kind of thought experiment you just conducted has been used toargue torture can be effective and is ‘justified’ for centuries.
It’snot that your logic is faulty. The process of trying to imagine thesituation and think about what you’d do is very natural and human.But this is a perfect example of how people can approach the topic oftorture with good intentions and little knowledge and walk away withconclusions that are a long way from the reality.
Basicallythe state of mind you’re in now (which I am presuming is reasonablycontent and not in immediate terrible pain) is a long way fromtorture. If you haven’t been tortured or in an analogous state ofextreme pain it’s extremely difficult to imagine how you wouldactually respond or what it would be like.
We’reparticularly bad at imagining the effects on our memories, logicalthinking and ability to process information. We imagine that inextreme pain we’ll still be capableof remembering things we can remember easily now.
You’reassuming that you’d be able to remember things in that state.You’re also assuming you’d know something relevant in the firstplace. Both are highly unlikely.
Peoplesaying ‘anything’ is part of the problem.It’s part of whytorture can never work. Because most of the people who are brought indon’t know shitand some of them will alsosay ‘anything’ to try and make the pain stop.
Torturers(and humans generally) are terrible at telling when people are lying.So they can not tell the difference.
Allof these are points I’ve covered before. They’re in this old poston why torture doesn’t work, this one on effective methods ofinvestigation, this one on what torture actually does tointerrogation and this one on the effects torture has on victims. Ohand this one on the effect torture has on memory.
Ifyou’ve read my previous Masterposts then I’d suggest moving on toRejali who covers all of this verythoroughly, or O’Mara who wrote less of a doorstep and concentratedon the biological reasons why torture can’t work.
Torture‘training’ does not appear to have any effect on a person’sability to resist torture. Resistance to torture appears to be commonand innate.
Essentiallythe factors that combine to mean torture can not ‘work’ are to dowith how we process pain and how our brains are wired. No amount oftraining changes that.
Howevertraining that’s supposed to help soldiers resist torture has beenlinked to soldiers torturing people.
Torture‘training’ does not appear to do anything to make soldiers more‘resistant’ because as human beings with human brains they arelikely already incredibly resistant to torture. The structure oftheir brains means that torture and abuse are never going to beeffective ways to get information from those brains.
Buttorture ‘training’ doesshow soldiers how torture is conducted. It gives them a standardisedintroduction in causing other people pain.
Andsome of them go on to use that to harm others.
Ona tangentially related note- whyis the idea of mutilation so terrible? Why is the idea of livingdisabled or disfigured so frightening? The WHO estimates that about athirdof people have some kind of disability or life long medicalcondition.
Tryanother thought experiment with me. Think of that mutilation you’reafraid of, whether it’s losing your hands or your legs or yournose. Now look up how people who actually have that condition liveand what they say about their condition. Look up mobility aids andprosthetics and surgical procedures and recovery times.
Lookat what disabled people outside the paralympics have achieved. It’sa long list.
WhatI’m aiming at here is this: becoming disabled is a real possibilityfor everyone.That prospect is a lot less scary if you know what you can doin that eventuality.
IfI ever lose a hand I’m getting the krukenberg procedure and somehooks because I have a lot of respect for heat proof limbs heldtogether by rubber bands. And suddenly the ‘nightmare’ scenario Ithought of as a budding teenage artist, losing my hands, istoothless.
Ifyou’re struggling to get your head around the idea that torture isuseless as well as immoral- I’m not surprised. There’s a lotof background information in our global culture justifying torture.
But-If you’ve read my Masterposts and you don’t get it then theproblem isn’t you, it’sme.The way I’m explaining it isn’t working for you.
That’ssomething I’m going to have to work on, being clearer and beingaccessible to everyone.
Butit probably means that right now? I’m not going to be able toexplain this in a way that will help.
Whichmeans I think the best thing you can do is go to my sources. Youcan find O’Mara’s book here.Youcan find Rejali here.For the love of everything holy do not buy Rejali in hardback, it’shuge enough already.
Youshould also consider reading what survivors have said about theirexperiences. Alleg’smemoir can be found here.Searle’saccount of his time as a POW is available here.Fela Kuti’s Coffinfor a Head of Stateand UnknownSoldierare on youtube and spotify.
Don’ttake my word for it. Look at the research. Read what survivors say.
That’swhy I have a sources page and why I try to cite as much as Ipractically can.
Don’tjust wonder about it. Do the reading. Get informed and get angry.
Anddo not blame yourself if I have failed as a teacher.
