“It's a meme. It's all a meme...
Mother forgive me."
Laura. I like comics, and shows about existential vampires. Shipping Romanogers in this desolate post-aou world is an art form.
I sometimes run jeangreyclub
I finished watching Manifest a few weeks ago, so my opinions are probably old but here it is. It’s not a bad ending by any means — but if the original idea was for them to go back to the day the plane was supoosed to land but make the right choices then why develop all of those relationships if it wasn’t going to mean much of anything in the finale. It’s like they wanted to give the audience everything and nothing for the last season at the same time. And outdid so much growth. It sucks.
The first thing, if they wanted Zeke x Mick to be endgame since the start, why not actually make Jared fall in love with Drea like genuinely instead of relinking his relationship with Mick and making them be happy all of Season 4 but then forcing a Drea pregnancy and ultimately get Michaela to send him away to her? I feel like Drea deserved for Jared to choose her on his own and not because Michaela push him to it. It was lame to give them a one episode endgame that didn’t feel earned when they could’ve build to that on Season 3/Season 4. I get Mick needed to be with Jared to give herself the chance but could’ve been better.
I never cared about TJ and Olive. It was weird that TJ was 18 and Olive was 12 when they first saw each other. I know they managed to make their relationship less creepy after the time jump since Olive was a little older and TJ was “mentally still 18” but it didn’t make it less inappropriate. I didn’t care when he left and didn’t care when he came back but I get it since he was an OG passenger but the writers were obsessed with giving Olive a love interest when most of it didn’t add anything to the plot. Can't forget that one college dude they made her date for not reason. And at the finale, it was clear that her relationship with TJ isn’t even happening (at least for a long time) since Olive needs to be a child, as it was meant to be and in the finale they made it seem like TJ and Violet (Adult Cal!first date) might be a future thing. So, was their romance on Season 4 even necessary?
And then there’s the Saanvi and Ben thing.
Since the very start of the series they had a lot of chemistry. And I don’t know if that was the idea or it was just the actors but they got in each other’s personal space real quick. And then they hinted at Saanvi’s romantic feelings for Ben in one of her therapy sessions — but I was still okay with them never crossing that line and keeping it platonic. Then, Grace dies and they still didn’t go there so at that point I thought they were going to keep it platonic but then they did made it canon and emphasized on how strong their connection is to the point they don’t feel it with anyone else — and a strong physical attraction they themselves are very aware of. And not just them but Mick’s made aware of it too. And they act on that attraction. Saanvi is Ben’s intellectual soulmate and best friend in canon. He’d trust her with his life in a heartbeat and vice versa. For about 6 years, they were each other’s confidants and were willing to risk each other’s life for the other. And so, the show makes it canon but then backtracks and goes “but they still love their other partners and would go back to them” and that would be fine since it’s fair but here’s the thing with all that:
In the finale, they landed the day they were all supposed to land but now with some different perspective and experiences to make certain choices about their lives. They [the passengers] got to have and remember those experiences, not the people in their life. Ben, Saanvi and Mick are canonically different people from what they were — which is not true for the people in their life. Ben and Grace were at the verge of divorce before the plane went missing — so magically that’s gonna be resolved now since Ben got to live a life where he loses her but she doesn’t even remember? The issues in Grace and Ben’s marriage won’t exist now that Ben knows Cal will be cured? Okay. Will Alex truly leave her husband and committ to an exclusive relationship with Saanvi? Because that was their issue as well prior to the plane situation.
And you want to tell me neither of those women will notice that there’s this connection between Ben and Saanvi that seems way too deep for two people that just met on a 4 hour flight? I don’t know about Alex but will Grace not feel threatened by this inexplicable bond and would they ever be able to fully be happy with their partners if they aren’t honest about all the experiences they shared together and some that would even count as emotional cheating? Like, we saw during the finale how Ben was so not ready to lose Saanvi. And it’s not like Saanvi will be away from their new life, she will be Cal’s doctor and will be in their life the same way she was in their old life. Grace and Ben were able to fix their relationship before because the callings were affecting Cal but now Cal doesn’t remember it. Then, she got pregnant and that gave their relationship a new propose but now nothing guarantees that their relationship will turn out the same way without those circumstances. I’d like to think both Saanvi and Ben needed the chance to be with them the way it was supposed to be and see if it’s actually going to work out but I don’t think it will because Grace and Alex are still their 2018 selves while Ben and Saanvi are not.
The situation is different for Mick because neither Jared or Zeke have memories of what went down — she’s the only one that got to have a future with both of them and decide which one she wanted. Jared and Zeke are not affected, only Mick. That whole journey allowed her to understand that Jared and her might want different things from life and they’d only get marry to fill a void — and she knows there’s other people that will align more with what they’d want for the future. It makes sense that she didn’t went back to what she was going to do before the plane dissapear. So, it doesn’t make sense for Ben or Saanvi to go back to their old life without thinking there won’t be any changes with their entire dynamic.
This analysis is so unequivocally on point that I genuinely accept this as the canon implication.
Manifest is another tried case of writers folding at the last minute and leaving the viewer to pick up the pieces—but they lasted longer than most, I’ll give them that.
If they didn’t want the audience thinking it, then using the amount of screen time they did to show Ben staring at Saanvi longingly right after getting his wife back is just clownery. Initially? Sure. But they dragged the scene out and had Grace clearly note their connection, making a point to ask about her. Ben would never be able to see Saanvi as just their son’s paediatrician moving forward after everything that transpired—nor Saanvi see him as just the father of another patient. The survivors get a much earned do-over, but it doesn’t mean they’ll live normal lives. The ending is still an alternate timeline where the characters will make choices with lived spiritual experience they wouldn’t have had, that no one else can understand. Not to mention the reaping of the passengers who faced judgement still creates a new 828 mystery (and compromises the previously established lifeboat stakes, but I won’t die on that hill.) But yeah, what’s the point of returning with the memories at all if only to make the exact same choices?
It’s definitely not a bad ending, even if I do feel it’s a weak cop out to not leave the characters standing with more conviction. For that reason I can respect the Mich and Jared thing, even if it reads as tragic given the level of quantum entanglement they had, and essentially makes Zeke’s catalyst death in s4 feel pointless. What gets me here is that Michaela had a calling that led her unambiguously toward Zeke, and the show takes a clear stance on that. But Ben also had a calling leading him to Saanvi. The divine clearly believes they’re destined to some degree, so the audience is forced to at least wager the possibility that they would eventually end up together, even in the new timeline. At least in that potential scenario it’s an active choice, not merely a result of love lost.
Anyway, we live in this world of so many botched endgames, I was genuinely at least surprised they didn’t choke on the slow burn with this one.
I'm Amal, a mother of three children, living under the weight of the genocide taking place in Gaza. 🍉
The Israeli occupation forces launched drone strikes on my husband, Fayez, and my son, Mohammad.
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Hello Amal. I’m so sorry to hear about this devastation against your family, and appreciate the strength it takes to share your story like this. I only wish I happened to be more active on tumblr at the time that you sent this. I pray your son is doing okay. Sharing this publicly in the hopes that many more will see this if you are still collecting donations.
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I still can’t believe marvel had Steve tell Natasha he could only really see himself with someone with ‘shared life experience’ (5 seconds after they literally kissed) and then had the two of them practically glued together for literal years (in this movie and in every other movie after it), only to not even seem to consider them as a potential couple/love story
Dear AMC, what’s your next move? – signed, concerned Carylers
The showrunner of The Book of Carol (TBOC) just said he had no intention of making Caryl canon, and he had every intention of exploring the romance between Daryl and Isabelle.
This will be a long post; sit down and get a cuppa tea.
Let’s start with the most important note. TBOC’s core audience consists of Carylers (people who ship Carol and Daryl), Carol fans, and Daryl fans. There is a massive overlap in the audiences, and Carylers comprise most of the core group. Many have been around since the show's beginning; some joined halfway through, and some joined late, but everyone is holding out for Caryl because they finally have a chance at a bright future.
Whether you’re still holding on to hope, you’ve lost it altogether, or you’re trying to hold on for Melissa’s sake – we see you.
For what it’s worth, this is where Nine Lives Two Mics stands. The Games Radar article itself might be chucked in the traffic-inducing drivel category by many fans, and the writer may have taken quotes specifically to make it sound anti-Caryl, but
"The obvious thing to do, and the easier thing to do would be, 'Okay, now they're falling in love and they're a couple.' But I always felt like that would be a mistake because it would feel like you were going into the TV book of tricks,"
Which is as clear as it gets in showing David Zabel’s intentions regarding Caryl's future. You can interpret the rest how you want to because it’s deliberately ambiguous to drive the conversation and clicks and, most importantly, create a divide in the fandom.
But a direct quote is a direct quote.
The showrunner decided to wake up one day, alienate his core audience, and validate the part of the fandom that had never intended to tune into the show in the first place. At best, this is ignorance; at worst, this is intentional. Neither is good for the franchise's future.
Let’s address some of the biggest takes we noticed on social media today.
“But the article writer is an anti-Caryler, and they’ve misrepresented facts before. Don’t fall for it!”
The article is indeed written to piss off Carylers because that is a great way of driving traffic. The headline is written to grab attention. The sub-headline hooks you further, and the body of the article validates the claim made in the headlines. But something that a writer – any writer – cannot do is misrepresent or misquote someone. They can paraphrase a quote, share their understanding, and even embellish if they want to (which this writer has done). But when quotations are added, they do it to signal to you that it’s a quote directly shared by the source. It helps increase the validity of articles.
Misrepresenting/ misquoting a major showrunner of a TV series can get you in legal trouble. The power dynamic leans in favour of the showrunner in this instance. He’s at the helm of a TV show, being interviewed by a writer whose name we didn’t even know until we looked it up. Who do you think is more at risk of getting in legal trouble?
“Trust in Norman and Melissa. Melissa would never return to a show that would tarnish Carol’s character.”
This has been the most popular take today. We agree with all of that. We still trust Melissa’s judgement. If she returned, she wanted what was best for Carol and her fans.
Let’s take a quick look at the hierarchy behind the scenes of a TV show for a second.
“The Showrunner is the individual that has the final say in all aspects of the series. Some showrunners are the show's original creator, while others are brought in by a studio or network to take on the duties…. While the producers, story editors, script coordinators, and staff writers (more on that below) do much of the leg work, the Showrunner calls the shots and makes the final decisions.” (source)
“Showrunner vs. executive producer
The term showrunner denotes which of the multiple executive producers is in charge of the others. This differentiation also indicates that the showrunner has overarching artistic license for the project and therefore usually makes more of the artistic decisions than other executive producers (such as writing, hiring, storyline decisions, etc.).” (source)
Melissa McBride is not the showrunner (we wish). Neither is Norman Reedus. They’re executive producers.
Why do we continue to say we want Melissa and Norman to have more creative input on the show in almost every podcast episode? Why do we keep saying we value their input? Because we want AMC to capitalize on the goldmine and wealth of experience Norman and Melissa have. Besides the showrunner, the network has the final say in the final product we will see on our screens. We want them to give Melissa and Norman what they want for the show.
“But David Zabel said pro-Caryl stuff. He also mentioned not wanting a romance at all.”
Zabel has also mentioned his intentions to ship bait a few times. The Daryl and Isabelle dynamic from S1 is an excellent example of how serious he is about his intentions. The chemistry between Daryl and Isabelle is forced — plain and simple. Daryl wants to go home, but she “insists” that he stay using “her feminine wiles.” It's deeply misogynistic writing that paints “the other woman” as the villain. When in reality, the ire should be directed at the man who wrote that woman into existence.
A showrunner’s responsibility in the promo circuit is to hype the show and their vision for it. Refuting a major ship — especially one that is heavily marketed by the network’s promo campaign — sabotages the PR strategy and puts the show’s future in turmoil.
Outright saying that you don’t intend to make Caryl canon when most of your audience, your leads/EPs, and the network are promoting the heck out of it? That is a bad move. Implying that you want to keep the ambiguity of a 14+ year relationship intact to explore a dynamic less than two months old? That just shows how little you know the characters you’re writing for.
“What Norman and Melissa say is all that matters.”
We wish that could be true because all the promos at SDCC would be worth a whole lot more right about now. Norman and Melissa did a great job of leaning into Caryl and supporting their core audience at SDCC. They really showed up for us, and it was a wonderful sight.
What Norman and Melissa say means a lot for the show’s PR strategy because they’re the face of the show. What they share in interviews directly impacts the show’s viewership. But David Zabel’s quote undermines all that. It undermines Norman and Melissa's effort to show up nonverbally for Carylers. It undermines the positive promo the network has put out for the last couple of weeks in response to the massive support they received from Carylers. The quote also tries to drag Norman into it when he’s done nothing but show his support for Carol, Caryl, and Melissa in the last few months. He’s vocally made an effort to support the audience.
None of this is Pro-Caryl or Pro-McReedus.
What's next?
David Zabel has clarified that he intends to minimize Caryl’s story to highlight Isabelle and Daryl’s dynamic. Whether we like it or not, this directly impacts how Carol’s story is shown in the narrative because Carol and Daryl are interlinked, and her story is heavily focused on bringing Daryl back home. We can’t have another S11 of the flagship show on our hands — not after everything that happened in the last two years.
Is it possible there are other plans that he's deliberately hiding to misdirect? Maybe. But if we take Norman’s and Melissa's happiness at face value, we also take David Zabel’s quote at face value. We don’t get to pick and choose facts because they won’t give Melissa and Norman a fantastic story for TBOC and beyond.
AMC can do that, though. AMC can make a clear-as-day move to counter what was said in that interview and show us what their priority is going forward.
Melissa McBride and Norman Reedus deserve better, and so do we.
So, AMC, we’ll ask again — what’s your next move?
Do you plan on standing with your core audience – which consistently shows up for TBOC and wants to pay their hard-earned dime to watch a story that honours Caryl, Carol, Daryl, Melissa, and Norman – or will you stand by the showrunner who just told your core audience he has no intention of giving them what they want?
I’m gonna be honest- part of me feels like they killed off Natasha in endgame partially to try and give Steve’s whole leaving everyone behind for Peggy ending any sort of credibility- because as much as I can’t see Steve abandoning everyone to run back to Peggy, I really can’t see him leaving nat
I mean let’s be honest I still don’t think Steve would actually leave everyone behind in the present (I mean he just finally got bucky and sam and everyone else back - esp Bucky after all this time - and then he just leaves??) let alone the fact that he’d suddenly develop a selfish streak and go back and screw up the long happy life that he acknowledged Peggy had without him in catws
Even if you don’t think there was anything romantic between them (even tho I definitely do lol) Steve and Natasha obviously loved each other and were very close and important to each other for a long time - especially after those years on the run and then losing everyone else they were really close to in the snap - I think it’s a shame that endgame seemed to undercut the importance of that relationship (like having him pull that damn compass again out of nowhere while he was talking to nat or implying that he left her to lead the avengers by herself for those five years like everyone else did) to make Steve suddenly being in love with Peggy again seem more plausible
Steve and Natasha were always a pair that shined on screen together and really brought out an intimacy and a humanity in these two characters that can sometimes be swept up in their larger superhero personas - I just wish we got to see more of that after and beyond those two Captain America movies
I got a couple of asks on billing, but as I started writing this post, I realized it'll be longer than a year of hunger, so I have to break it up into separate points/posts.
“Melissa is fine with being second billed after Norman. Suggesting she's not is to say that she's weak.”
Melissa is anything but weak, but she's still subject to the same sexism/misogyny and ageism as other women. She works in a male dominated industry and the sci-fi/fantasy & horror space in particular is difficult for women. There aren't a lot of allies. If you work within that niche, it's very easy to start believing the things you're told (directly or indirectly) about your own worth and talents.
Melissa is bombarded—has been since TWD first gained traction—with the messaging that Norman is the star. He's the one people love, the one the fans show up for. The one people travel for hours to catch a glimpse of on set. She's lucky to be a part of the production, especially since she has social anxiety and the studio is so nice to be this accommodating to her needs. She's not able to promote in the way Norman does, so who is she to expect fair and equal treatment for the work she does put into the storytelling and the acting?
Being second billed in the title credits means that Melissa is less than Norman to the show. Less money, less influence on story direction, less authority on the set. She is the supporting lead, not the star. Even the title tells the audience and anyone working on the show that.
Melissa puts effort into crafting Carol's arc. The things she recently mentioned at Tribeca, about going out to mingle among people to observe their behavior? That's research on the actor's part and a good actor does a lot more than memorize lines. That's part of what I mentioned in a previous post about how 'creatives' (I hate that studio invented word 🙄) put in a lot of unpaid hours of work.
Why should she settle for playing second fiddle to the show's "real star," when she invests at least as many hours of prep into the show as he does, when she carries the bulk of the show's emotional arc and to judge by the coverage of the second season, is responsible for the surge of attention? Isn't she owed equal recognition despite not having a penis or being vocal about her mistreatment?
A woman can't say the things Norman or JDM do. You get labeled 'difficult to work with,' a diva or a bitch. Lauren Cohan's fight with AMC over the pay gap was well-publicized and maybe the GA doesn't understand why she came back to the franchise? I believe there's a comment out there by Kim Dickens about returning, where she basically says that as an actor, you can't afford to bear grudges. What she doesn't say, is that her comment pertains to female actors (and most POC).
As a woman in the industry, you bite your tongue often. You smile when you don't feel like it and you say complimentary things about people you despise simply to be able to keep working. You don't want to be "overreacting," or "too emotional" or "too sensitive" when your 'competition' (aka your coworkers) step all over you, or "make a fuss." You get fired or blacklisted for less than what the TWDU men aren't shy of saying in public.
It's also complicated for Melissa because she likes Norman. He's her friend. She doesn't want to damage their relationship by complaining to the bosses (who may have a 'buddy' relationship with her costar) and like I said above, Melissa believes he is the star of the show. Why wouldn't she? She's been inundated with subliminal messaging for over a decade, along with the usual studio behavior to make sure women stay in line and know their place. That place is always below/after the men.
None of that makes Melissa weak. Quite the contrary. She's kept Carol alive and more than relevant, despite repeatedly being sidelined, which takes a savvy woman. Someone who's talented and smart.
There's a ton of discourse around this already, but I wanted to share my perspective on the matter.
The engagement and buzz generated over the weekend were massive. Purely from a marketing perspective, McReedus + Caryl are a goldmine. They generate buzz effortlessly and hype their audiences to the point of encouraging continued support—continued support guarantees viewership, subscription boost, merchandise sales, and fan art/fiction. If you can hook the fans enough, it can keep the buzz going for much longer.
The surge in engagement was a direct result of Norman and Melissa showing up for Carylers and making us feel seen and valued.
Them. Together. Equally.
As Carylers, we adore Melissa and Norman, and we want them to be happy with the show they’ve crafted together. We see them as equals already, but what about the general media perception?
Equal billing elevates both of them in the media. It amplifies the fact that they're both executive producers and lead actors of their show. It encourages equal coverage, equal treatment in the media and their work environment, and equal standing going forward into the show’s future.
And honestly?
They’ve both earned it. This just looks a lot better and more balanced overall.
I hope AMC has enough time to add both names to one title card, and we see their names together when the show airs on September 29th.
@kryptoniancape and I have more thoughts on the matter, and we plan to delve into them at the top of our next episodic breakdown on the @9lives2mics podcast.
We're taking a mental health break today to recenter ourselves. We cherish the idea of an EP who can deliver a strong story for Daryl & Carol, respect both Norman Reedus & Melissa McBride, and listen to the Caryl fanbase.
What's important to me is that Daryl and Carol stay true to themselves, get to go on adventures together as an established couple, confront their traumas in powerful ways, and help each other heal and grow and get stronger. Those adventures could happen anywhere. I don't care. They just need to be in the right hands.
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