this can also apply to the fandom overall not just shippers
Alastor is treated similar to how a lot people treat woman in fiction and real life.
I want to start this post with a bit of context before getting into specific ships and how shippers tend to depict Alastor. I’ve never really liked most Alastor ships. I’m very attached to him as a character, and anything that feels too out of character immediately loses me. To me, almost all Alastor ships especially when they’re framed as mutually romantic or sexual feel like mischaracterization.
That said, there’s been something else bothering me beyond just “this feels OOC.” While watching how Alastor is depicted in certain ships and how people interpret him, I kept feeling unsettled in a way I couldn’t fully articulate. I couldn’t quite put my finger on what, specifically, I disliked. It took me about 2 years (since season 1) to finally understand it and it turns out it wasn’t just mischaracterization that made these ships uncomfortable to me.
A lot of Alastor shipping content doesn’t engage with him as a subject. Instead, he becomes:
A status symbol (“look who I paired him with”)
A reward
A moral trophy
Or an aesthetic (voice, smile, suit, power)
These are accessory treatment.
In fiction, this has historically happened to women:
Their inner lives are irrelevant unless they serve a romance
Their trauma is “flavor”
Their boundaries are ignored because desire overrides consent
Their personality is flattened to traits that please the viewer
With Alastor, you see the same mechanic on how the fandom treats him:
His canon aversion to intimacy is dismissed as “fixable” or a kind of obstacles to work around
His autonomy is overwritten so a ship can function
His trauma is romanticized instead of respected
His violence and control issues are aestheticized rather than interrogated
He stops being a character and becomes a thing to be used for emotional payoff.
He’s objectified like how many women in fiction are because of his demeanor (I believe that’s way), it's actually really interesting to watch. Alastor’s gentleman-like behavior mirrors a set of expectations that have historically been imposed on women in fiction: perfection in every way
Women in fiction are often expected to be:
Polite
Composed
Emotionally contained
Aesthetically pleasing even in distress
Alastor performs that exact thing:
Constant smile
Controlled speech
Impeccable manners
Emotional restraint even under pressure
Alastor can not have any real uglyness to him that isn't visually pleasing to the audience I’ve seem this with how people constantly compare “pilot” Alastor to “show” Alastor (they're the same person to me) where people often expression how they don't like how “show” Alastor shows more of himself and “pilot” was far more contained and it was harder to truly see his emotions. “Pilot Alastor is praised by some people for being more energetic and enthusiastic even thought in the show they make it known that Alastor is getting more and more tired of working at the hotel, he isn't allowed to actually express that in anyway “We can know that he's annoyed but they shouldn't show that too much, it's unpleasant”.
Because he performs flawless composure, audiences subconsciously assume:
> “He exists to be looked at, not listened to.”
That’s the same expectations female characters fall into.
Moral containment
Women are often expected to be “good victims”:
Suffer quietly
Remain likable
Be redeemable and nurturing despite trauma
Alastor gets shoved into a warped version of this:
His darkness is acceptable only if it’s “cool”
His boundaries are ignored because he’s “charming”
His refusal of romance is framed as denial, not choice
Alastor is not allow to verbally express any real discomfort he feels
His gentlemanliness makes people feel entitled to him.
Emotional labor projection
Another parallel:
Women are often expected to regulate others’ emotions.
With Alastor:
People sometimes project emotional softness onto him
They expect him to “eventually open up”
People expect Alastor to open up without any real justification, as if his comfort and vulnerability are things others are entitled to. He’s expected to feel safe and emotionally available on command, even when he’s given no reason to trust or soften.
*Mind you this is the scene right after Vox forced Alastor to watch him and Val have sex
They want him to be the stable, controlled one in relationships
And humbling him and expecting him to effortlessly take care of himself and others all at the same time
But canon Alastor does not exist to soothe others.
That expectation is imposed on him just like it is on women, but why does this happens specifically to Alastor?
Alastor sits at a crossroads of traits that trigger objectification:
Power without any vulnerability
Elegance without emotional access
Restraint mistaken for consent
Trauma hidden behind competence
When a character refuses to emote on demand, fandom often responds by rewriting them to make them consumable.
That rewriting is gendered even when the character is male.
The irony here is that:
Alastor is one of the few characters whose entire arc is about:
Control
Autonomy
Refusal to be owned
Weaponized politeness
And fandom responds by trying to own him anyway.
When a character:
Is composed
Is desirable
Withholds emotional access
Refuses normative intimacy
They are punished by being objectified.
Now with all this mind
One of the things that makes Alastor such a compelling character is that he withholds from us people wanna know him more. He is polite but not warm, charming but not open, helpful but not selfless. He performs control so well that people forget it is a performance. His smile is constant, his manners are impeccable, his voice never cracks and because of that, audiences often assume he is simple. He looks and acts as if he has everything emotionally together when it far more possible he doesn’t.
Alastor is emotionally blunted, not empty. He feels selectively, inconsistently, and often without clarity. He forms attachments slowly on his own terms, and usually through routine, usefulness, or shared structure rather than intimacy. He values autonomy above almost everything. He does not like being owned, commanded, or morally reframed by others. Even his “kindness” is conditional and deliberate. Nothing about him is accidental.
And yet, despite all of this, fandom consistently treats Alastor as if his interiority is optional.
My comparison to him and how women are treated in fiction becomes unavoidable.
In fiction, women especially composed, polite, emotionally restrained women are often treated less as subjects and more as functions . Their trauma is aesthetic. Their boundaries are negotiable. Their refusal is interpreted as tension rather than a choice. Their restraint is read as availability. They are expected to be perfect, palatable, and ultimately consumable.
Alastor fits that same mold almost too well.
He is gentlemanly. He is controlled. He is aesthetically pleasing. He does not emote “correctly.” He rarely explains himself. And because of that, fandom feels entitled to rewrite him into something more accessible. His lack of interest in romance becomes a challenge. His autonomy becomes something to be overcome. His refusal becomes “he just hasn’t met the right person yet.”
Instead of asking who Alastor is, fandom often asks what he can be used for.
That pattern becomes especially obvious when you look at how he’s handled in ships.
Take Lucifer, for example.
In a lot of radioapple content, Alastor is made subservient emotionally, morally, or literally. He is framed as someone who needs to be put in his place, corrected, commanded, or owned. For a recent example of this the “executioner theory” where Lucifer makes a deal with Alastor that allows him to order Alastor to kill on command, as if Alastor’s entire character arc hasn’t been about resisting ownership and refusing chains. This theory alone full proves my point about how a lot people use and place Alastor in different pairs as a mere accessory. What benefit does Alastor have at all in this scenario and even if there was one can't he just optain it himself especially without being under ownership again.
This dynamic is bizarre on a narrative level, but it’s worse on a thematic one.
Alastor is black, mixed-raced Creole man from the early 1900s. Lucifer is depicted as a white, aristocratic embodiment of old power. When fandom imagines Lucifer commanding Alastor, controlling his violence, or “taming” him, it recreates a racialized power dynamic whether people intend it or not. A powerful Black man’s autonomy is stripped so a white authority figure can be centered as dominant, tragic, or morally superior.
What’s especially telling is that these interpretations often ignore Charlie entirely. A deal where Lucifer controls Alastor’s actions by killing any sinner he commands directly contradicts Charlie’s ideology, her dream, and goes against the overall narrative of Hazbin. But those themes are inconvenient when the goal is a ship, so they’re discarded.
Alastor’s autonomy is sacrificed first.
Instead of Lucifer fans trying to question why Lucifer sees not causing harm as a form of punishment to begin with, they instead jump to trying to fix Lucifers problem cuz “poor him” and instead of taking a moment and wondering why Lucifer has that specific punishment to begin with they come to the conclusion of “Lets use Alastor to fix Lucifers personal “problem””.
With Vox, the treatment shifts but the objectification doesn’t disappear.
In Radiosilence (the one-sided dynamic), Alastor often becomes the unattainable prize. His lack of interest isn’t respected as a boundary; it’s framed as an obstacle. Vox’s obsession is explored, centered, indulged while Alastor’s subjectivity fades into the background. He exists to be wanted. Even tho Alastor presents and how he feels about Vox is the prime reason for the existence of this specific kind of ship Ive only seen few people actually dive into how Alastor would feel or behave in this scenario (even tho its canon now) it is almost always focused on how Vox feels.
In Radiostatic, the problem becomes even clearer. Alastor is frequently aestheticized to the point of abstraction. His femininity stays in this one which for some reason is quite rare as people often remove this trait from Alastor within some ships of him, but they sometimes strip his agency. He’s depicted as something Vox has a status symbol, a beautiful possession, emotional jewelry. In many cases, some radiostatic fans have even admitted to not even liking Alastor at all even tho they full ship this ship. He’s there to make Vox happy, to complete Vox’s narrative, to serve Vox’s emotional arc.
Alastor is no longer a person. He is an accessory.
This mirrors exactly how women in fiction are often treated in shipping spaces: valued for what they provide to another characters rather than who they are themselves.
Alastor’s entire character is built around resisting this exact thing. He does not give emotional access freely because he knows what happens when he does.
In some cases people will excuse Vox’s behaviour even if it's not for a ship by saying “Alastor actually enjoys being stalked he enjoys the harrassment, the assault” this very similar how people would blame and try to excuse similar behave made towards woman not even just in fiction.
And fandom responds to this by forcing access anyways, by rewriting his resistance as desire, reframing his boundaries as a kind of denial, and turning his control into compliance.
It’s honestly a shame, because there are so many thoughtful and interesting ways to explore a character like Alastor, yet so many people default to shallow or outright harmful depictions instead. I’ve seen people dismiss the exploration of (queer)platonic dynamics as boring and even when they don’t say it outright, it often feels like they simply don’t know how to engage with a character like Alastor unless romance or sex is involved.
His identity his refusal of intimacy, his control, his emotional distance could be incredibly fun and challenging to work with, but instead fandom keeps forcing him into amatonormative frameworks that flatten him. Rather than asking what kind of connections Alastor would choose, people focus on reshaping him into something easier to consume. And that, more than anything, feels like such a waste.
I also can’t help but notice that some people pride themselves in their understanding of complex issues like representation, ethics, or specific dynamics making analysis after analysis but when the opportunity arises and if they’re not faced with anything that they personally can not relate to or can not view as surface level, they shut down. They skim the surface, dismiss concerns, or talk over people actually trying to engage, because confronting the topic might force them to confront their own perception. It’s easier to stay comfortable, keep everything flat, and avoid thinking too deeply but doing that only guarantees the same problems keep repeating. The reaction people gave when the conversation of Alastor experiencing racism while alive and how people in this fandom would much rather fight hard to dismiss this idea rather look at how that would effect him and his relationships with others characters was telling, on how they are either ignorant and/or uncomfortable with digging deep into such topic
The fact that this is happening to a male character was actually very confusing to me at first I constantly wondered “what is it about character that makes people treat him like this”. There is more I wish to expand on but Alastor is non-normatively masculine, he's feminine in how he carries himself but he visually masculine enough where his popularity isn't diminished, his racially identity, emotionally restrained, and uninterested in traditional romance. Those are the same traits that have historically made women easier to objectify in fiction.
So, Why is Alastor’s autonomy always the first thing to go?
There something about Alastor that doesn't give him the same amount of privilege that other male character get and i do believe it has to do with even more things than just him having a lot of womanly attributes and once I notice it, I started to notice it everywhere and its very obvious that people are completely unaware of these implications when addressing Alastor but then that would have to bring up another conversation as to why these kinds of interpretation of him is the “default” and and why people don't immediately notice the implications of these depictions.
I could make a second part of this and going into more as to why this happens more maybe
This could probably be seen as a fandom critique post but I get scared posting anything that has critique and Hazbin in it cuz I dont wanna attract certain kind of people 😭, but this has got to be something that is my biggest problem with being in this fandom as it melts down into a lot of issues like, racism, misygony, a/arophobia, and even ableism if I wanted to go even deeper into things, obviously not ever shipper is doing this (I feel that should be common sense)
so while ago I made crack theory of how Roo is Alastor dad and then I went on about how Charlie and Alastor might be half-sibling this was original a crack theory of mine but I am now kinda believing it a legitimate theory now
So this is fully flesh out explaintion of this theory a lot my analysis is coming from this post that help me but this together more smoothly
Okay I’m going to start with Charlie first since that theory is the most popular and I’ll do my best to reexplain it Now a lot people believe that Lilith having a child couldn’t be possible as sinners aren’t able to have children, so how is it possible for Lilith to have Charlie, A lot people think Lucifer cheated but I don’t personally believe that Lucifer would cheat on his wife the amount of times Viv and people working on this show have said time and time again about how Lucifer lovesss his wife and he’s “wife guy” yada yada they’ve also been described to be like Morticia and Gomez from the Addams Family so yeah as much of horrible father he can be and I know he’s already not a good person (yeah the devil isn’t a good person lmao) I just don’t believe he’d do something like cheat on Lilith
So I think what happened here is that for them to get Charlie they had a surrogate mother in place
This mother possibly being Roo due to Charlie and Roo similarities, this is popular theory already so information about it is easy to find.
The stripes on their eyes and even her nose (I actually didn’t notice that until now)
But also in this video link the fact that Viv can’t explicitly mention if Lucifer and Lilith are Charlie’s real parent
I think she already kinda answered the question lmao
But clearly there’s some complicated family drama that’s gonna happen in season 3 and I assume this will be brought up or revealed cuz during Vel streams during Charlie second interview on tv some sinners point out the lack of Lilith features on Charlie
Now with Alastor this part gets detailed so lock in!!!
In Zoophobia Alastor was the child of one single parent called Malvada which literally means evil, they were the embodiment of evil itself
Malvada was then merged into Alastor character along with another character called Jex who looks similar to Roo’s design
Unfortunately Zoophobia lore and any media relating to it is lost media but there are some scraps that can be found if you search hard enough
Alastor is also said by Viv to be her most consistent character and not much about him has changed
the Structure of Hell, and Why Alastor Could Be Roo’s Child
This theory is built on the idea that Roo is not just another demon or antagonist waiting to be revealed, but something far more foundational to the Hazbin universe. Rather than treating Roo as a character who rules Hell, this framework views her as the underlying force that allows Hell to exist in the form we see it. From that perspective, Alastor’s unusual power, Charlie’s suppressed darkness, and Hell’s recurring imagery all begin to connect in a way that feels intentional rather than coincidental.
Roo is the foundation of Hell itself
Roo’s title, “The Root of All Evil,” A root is not something that commands or gives orders. It exists underneath everything else, feeding and sustaining what grows above it. This framing suggests that Roo is not a demon who chooses evil, but a conceptual source that makes corruption, suffering, and sin possible in the first place.
For anyone confused I don't think Roo has a gender same as how Malvada in Zoohpobia didn't either, despite looking more feminine and referred to that way and I think Roo is the closest being to a God-like being in Hazbin same as their counterpart we see in Season 1
The Seven Deadly Sins represent emotional expressions of evil. Lucifer represents pride. Overlords represent accumulated power. Roo, however, represents the condition that allows all of those things to develop. Evil does not begin with wrath, pride, or lust it begins when harm, obsession, and imbalance are able to take root.
That is why I think Roo is rarely, if ever, depicted as acting directly. Instead, her influence appears embedded into Hell itself: watching eyes in walls and shadows, environments that feel alive, and a sense that Hell is not merely a place but something that observes and responds. Roo does not need to rule Hell because Hell is build on them.
Hell’s Hierarchy Exists Above Roo
One of the strongest pieces of evidence for this theory is how Hazbin portrays Hell’s hierarchy. Lucifer is clearly meant to be the king, the Sins rule their respective rings, and Overlords dominate the social and political landscape of the pride ring. Yet none of these positions explain why Hell is structured around endless cycles of suffering and escalation rather than stability.
Hell feeds on emotional extremity. Violence creates more violence. Trauma creates obsession. Obsession creates power imbalances. These are not traits enforced by a ruler they are traits of an environment designed to already nurture corruption. That environment makes much more sense if Hell itself is rooted in something that passively encourages those conditions rather than actively commanding them.
Roo’s role is not political it's more ecological. They are the soil in which Hell grows from.
Satan, Wrath, and the cult on earth
Martha’s cult chant “Satan!, we return your filthy creatures back to the pits of hell, may The Root of All Evil remained honoured as we continue thy work” is one of the clearest indicators that Roo and Satan are not the same entity. They are invoked together, but separately, implying they work beside each other. And I have to make an assumption that Roo was on earth and started a cult or a cult started around them rather than them doing it themselves.
HELLUVA BOSS - Murder Family // S1: Episode 1 (10:03)
I do believe Satan has some kind of connection and relationship with Roo but I don’t really know how much influence he has but my theory is that most evil actions can be fueled by wrath which is something Roo feeds on thus working with Satan is beneficial
Satan’s canonical role as the King of Wrath: Wrath is the sin most likely to create immediate, tangible harm. It is reactive, explosive, and self-perpetuating. In a system built on Roo’s influence, wrath would be the most efficient way for corruption to spread.
This suggests a functional relationship: Roo provides the underlying influence, wrath acts as the fastest-growing expression of that influence, and Satan governs how that expression manifests. Tho pride(Lucifer) could also work her I doubt Lucifer would work with Roo but someone like Satan who seems to want Lucifer position is more likely to work with a person like Roo at least with what we have both Roo and Satan have been mention together making me believe they work together.
This connection also explains why cult behavior tied to Roo often involves violence, sacrifice, and more. Those actions are not random; they are wrath-driven attempting to feed something that thrives on suffering.
Roo’s Influence Does Not Eliminate Choice
This theory is rejecting the idea that Roo controls individuals. Instead, Roo’s influence operates through amplification. They do not create emotions from nothing; they strengthens the emotions that already exist, particularly those tied to fixation and resentment.
This is why Roo-associated imagery tends to appear at moments of emotional intensity or moral collapse. Their presence is strongest where people cling to their anger, justify their cruelty, or refuse to let go of pain. Roo does not force anyone to act they create conditions where acting on darker impulses feels natural, even rewarding.
Okay with that analysis of Roo
I don't think Roo’s influence was only limited to Hell alone. Earth is where souls are formed in the first place. It’s not hard to imagine Roo spending time on Earth, not as a ruler or obvious god, but quietly, blending in with humanity and creating a cult possible (Helluva Boss)
Taking the form of a man would be the easiest way to do this. It allows them to move through human society unnoticed if this is taking place and have children across different places and times. Especially during the 1800-1900s if Roo took the form of a woman during that they'd be watch more closely than a man would, “lock that woman up now!! she looked at me weird!?!?” I just feel that Roo benefits a lot on Earth if they took the form of a man due to y’know the obvious, and if they were a man and was trying to spread their influence by having children permanently marking themselves into humanity, a man would be the most efficient, man have tons of kids with different people effortlessly all the time.
Most of those children probably didn’t survive very long tho. A godlike entity having children with humans would almost definitely result in instability, physically, mentally, or socially. Early deaths wouldn’t be surprising. But Roo wouldn’t need most of them to succeed just one good one would probably be enough.
Also the idea of Roo have a ton of baby mamas is really funny to me
But I believe that Alastor would be one of these kids. with how Alastor is designed and how his powers works I swear he atleast has some connection to Roo and not only that this video of Viv talking about what Alastor is exactly
Source: HAZBIN HOTEL Animation Cleanup pt. 6 ft Edward Bosco, Micheal Kovach and Vivziepop (1:30:09)
Now.. If Alastor was just some plain old sinner deer overlord I think she'd just say that but for some reason there's something about Alastor genetically that she can't give out at the moment. >:)
So if Alastor is Roo’s child it also kinda of explain how when he broke free of Rosie he didn't lose any power that was supposedly given to him, Hell simply gives him an environment where what’s already inside him can fully express itself. (I feel like I could of worded that differently but you get the idea). Alastor already naturally works in hell seamlessly.
Charlie and Alastor are two character that Viv for some reason can explicitly reveal too much about who they are exactly these question feel simply and the only other reason I believe she isn't answering is cuz they very important and is gonna contribute to a big reveal.
Alastor is a very wrathful person he's vengeful and hold grudges fuel primarily by the unfortunately time period he was born in he's a pretty angry guy despite how he carries himself, Charlie when she become enraged she shows more of her demon form, that has a lot similarities to Roo so wrath has some part to play when it comes to Roo
So with all of thisbeing said I think it's possible that Charlie and Alastor are half-sibling by Roo
Additionally note:
I would like to believe that Alastor hardly knows about most of this and Rosie is fully aware but she hasn't told Alastor all this information (if this theory is true), I think Alastor is somewhat aware of Rosie’s plan, whatever that plan is but he might not know the full extant of it or the background details maybe, obviously I assume Charlie knows not a damn thing. I thought this would be more interesting cuz then both Charlie and Alastor would both be surprised by this information if revealed.
I hate complaining online but ima do it anyways LMAO
So about Vox and what not
So recently at a con apparently it was explicitly said that “Vox put himself over others and sacrifice anyone to get what he wants and manipulate how things are viewed by others”
Idk why this is shock to anyone, that should have already been known but apparently some people seem to be really surprised by this
Idk why the guy that’s meant to represent the evilness of capitalism is surprising people that he takes advantage of others, Like???
And yes it is mostly Vox fans which is a little odd to me cuz I have very little problems with Alastor having evil traits my irritation usually comes when ppl deny his nuance and that he’s morally grey much like the entire main cast
And very very little ppl have a problem with Alastor being evil I’ll even say that most ppl like him that way
I like him cuz he’s morally grey and it confuses ppl and that’s fun to watch, ppl often see things in black and white in shows and never think of nuance in characters
But to continue I keep seeing ppl use Charlie next to Vox and that Vox is gonna be the one to warn her about being used by Alastor or He’s gonna like save her from being betrayed/abandoned by Alastor…..
First of all
IN WHAT WORLD DOES ONE TRULY BELIEVE VOX GIVES TWO NICKELS AND DIME ABT CHARLIE THAT MUCH
Are we serious like genuinely and again it’s mostly Vox fans saying this and victimizing Vox to a certain degree and for some reason Alastor is always included like clockwork
And how in the beginning (I’ma say the end of Season 1) ppl kept making Vox out to be a victim in their fallout by saying theres a possibility of Alastor rejecting him in anyway cuz saying “no” to someone is the greatest crime a person can commit for some reason
That’s a whole different conversation to get into that bugs me and if I dwell on it too much it won’t be something I can laugh off anymore
And Second of all
I’ma say this if you can not accept that Vox is just evil if you can’t accept he has very very horrible qualities as a person you are not a Vox fan, there's only so much of a character you can remove to be liked in your image to a point it’s not even the same character anymore, ppl need to accept Vox as he is if you can't especially as a fan of his you need to let that man go
Idk who that guy you keep talking abt but it ain’t Vox, I think he has the same name from this one guy from Hazbin Hotel a show I watched but that ain't the same guy
And in all honesty I genuinely struggle to even think of a good character quality Vox has, the only thing I can come up with is “he cares about the Vees” And we can even debate that tbh LMAO
in the playbill he doesn’t even sound like he cares for them from Valentinos pov and with the ““““new”””” info abt how he uses ppl it’s very likely he’s only using them for his own benefit right now, Alastor even brings this up in Season 1 so nobody should be surprised
No amount of confirmation from Viv saying The Vees are all evil no amount of questions being answered by ppl actually working on the show helps
Ppl in the fandom constantly talking abt it
And because of all of that all I can do is laugh I always laugh at stuff that has such solid answer to them and especially when seeing takes regarding Vox (with Alastor he's always freaking included) cuz what else can anyone do I’ll complain abt it but it’s still find it really funny tho, cuz how the hell did you come up with that conclusion?
Idk why I had this random headcanon that Husk was pretty buff when he was alive or well built
Okay I remember why now this was in my drafts lol but basically I think it started with 2 pieces of fanart I saw of Husk one when he was alive and him current, the current was him being very buff but the fan design of him as a human had him serving face he beautiful
But then I thought husk is described to be very insecure and in need of a lot validation I thought it would be interesting if when he was alive he was very insecure despite being attractive only for him to die and look the complete opposite of what he originally was and still being insecure
Usually an insecurity isn’t what you look like and what you need to do is just accept and love yourself in order to get over those insecurities it’s not really what you look like that’s the problem but just how think of yourself
I can't find the source but someone said that during a Hazbin Hotel panel (?), that Chaggie was the core of the show. What are your thoughts on that?
I don't think they're the core for season 2 recently Viv have been posting a lot about The Vees like a lot so it best to assume they will be the main conflict and focus for season 2 along with heaven. What I do remember hearing about is that Chaggie will have their own "sexy song" or "sexy moments" lol something like that so we'll see them but them being the core of season 2 isn't something I've heard of
What are your thoughts on Charlie being able to instantly forgive Sir Pentious when she found out about his spying for the Vees and only knowing very shortly by then compared to her anger at Vaggie's lie despite said lie not harming Charlie in the present and they have known each other longer?
Charlie didn’t know Sir Pentious very well for his "betrayal" to feel personal. It felt like a mistake from someone who not really that emotionally tied to her. And because her entire philosophy is about giving people a second chance, she was already prepared to forgive someone like him.
With Vaggie, the situation is entirely different. They’re in a deep, committed relationship built on trust, and Charlie sees Vaggie as her moral anchor. So learning that Vaggie used to be part of something Charlie deeply opposes shatters that image. It’s not just the lie it’s the feeling that someone she loves most may have stood for everything she’s fighting against. That’s a deeper, more personal betrayal to Charlie not because of what Vaggie did, but because of what it challenges inside Charlie herself.
Charlie (not intentional) puts Vaggie on a higher pedestal than she does for people she hardly knows like I've mentioned before it pretty common for people to except more and hold one’s closed to them to higher standards that the ones they don't know
So Charlie’s reaction isn’t “fair” in a logical sense but it’s more emotionally honest. Forgiving a stranger is easy when your identity depends on hope. Forgiving the person closest to you, when their past makes you question your whole worldview is much harder.
And that’s where her flaw shows Charlie’s empathy sometimes stretches further for strangers than it does for the people she loves. Hopefully, that’s something she’ll grow through as the show goes on.
I have an unusual Chaggie analysis request. And before I ask, I know I have been asking in regard to Charlie's flaws but I love her, including her messy parts. Now, I wanted your opinion on the moments in Welcome to Heaven and Hello Rosie were Vaggie tries to talk to/calm Charlie down which included placing a comforting hand on her only for an emotional Charlie to pull away in anger. I don't know how to explain it but those similar moments saddened me, but I can't help thinking about them. What are your thoughts?
Sorry it took so long for me to answer this T-T
In both Welcome to Heaven and Hello Rosie, Charlie is emotionally overwhelmed her dream is under threat, her ideals are being questioned, and she's being pulled between the morality of Heaven and the brutality of Hell. Vaggie reaches out, physically and emotionally, and Charlie pulls away. That action paired with the look of anger or judgment hurts, because it’s Charlie emotionally shutting out the one person who has stood by her the longest.
A lot the times people tend to hold the ones they love the most to highest standards than others around them. This is very apparent between Charlie relationship with Vaggie, Vaggie just like everyone in the main cast has contributed to past violence but she is judged more by Charlie than how Charlie judge other sinners.
the sad part is that Vaggie is trying. She’s reaching out. And even though Vaggie isn’t perfect herself, Her reaching out like that can be seen as her begging to be understood and comfort Charlie when she sees her becomes frustrated with heaven. Charlie pulling away from Vaggie not only shows her refusing to acknowledge Vaggie isn't the same person as she was in heaven in Hello Rosie and it also shows that Charlie doesn't just have an idealistic views when it comes to her dream but also to the people she holds close.
Those moments show something that’s very real in relationships like stated before people often hold higher standards for the people they love than others. It hurts to watch because we know how much they love each other.
The fact that Charlie pulls away doesn’t mean she doesn’t love Vaggie. It means she’s in a narrative sense hasn’t yet learned how to look at her as she is fully sorta putting Vaggie on this pedestal. And that’s a very relatable and tragic flaws a person can have.
This was something I was already gonna get into (I’ll talk more about)
Charlie’s Bias & Moral Conflict
Charlie’s ideals are firmly built on peace, forgiveness, and nonviolence even though she could not hold some of these ideals to Vaggie. To learn that Vaggie her partner was once part of Heaven’s extermination squad, the very system Charlie resents, is a shock.
Her anger isn’t just about what Vaggie did it’s about:
Feeling betrayed that Vaggie kept this from her,
Feeling like Vaggie may be part of the cruelty Charlie’s fighting against,
Questioning whether their entire relationship is built on a lie.
Of course, these are emotional reactions, not the full truth. Vaggie has clearly changed. She’s chosen Charlie’s path. But in that moment, Charlie’s fear and disillusionment overwhelm her ability to process the nuance. So she looks down at Vaggie not because she truly believes Vaggie is “bad” but because she’s hurt, shocked, and deeply afraid that her vision of what’s right is falling apart.
When Charlie is emotionally spiraling, The moment of her pulling away is her internal pain turning outward. She’s angry at the situation, and the world she can’t fix.
A Mirror of Charlie’s Deeper Flaw
That moment reflects one of Charlie’s deeper flaws: she doesn’t always know how to handle moral complexity in people she loves. When her ideals are challenged, especially by those close to her, she retreats often emotionally shutting down, or looking for a clean moral answer where none exists.
But relationships, especially in Hazbin Hotel, aren’t clean. Vaggie’s past doesn’t undo her love or loyalty but Charlie has to grow into understanding that.
In S2
I do think these issue Charlie has will bleed onto other character not just Vaggie
Charlie will need to reckon more with the fact that:
People she loves have made violent choices,
Good people can come from “bad” systems
And true compassion means accepting people with their full history not just the parts that feel safe.
It could lead to a really great emotionally arc where Charlie apologizes for her own personal bias, and for projecting her moral fears onto someone who has already chosen redemption.
Hello. Me again. Thanks for answering my question, I appreciate it. I wanted your opinion on the flaws from Charlie's side in her relationship with Vaggie. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Charlie, she's one of my favorites but she's not perfect. And a recurring flaw I have heard is that she has a tendency tp steamroll Vaggie and some have even stated that Charlie takes Vaggie for granted. What do you think? And since these flaws haven't been resolved yet, how do you think it'll play out in S2?
Emotional Tunnel Vision (aka. Steamrolling):
Charlie’s trying to be compassionate and optimismtic are beautiful traits, but they can also lead to emotional tunnel vision. She’s so focused on her mission: redeeming sinners, changing Hell, and ending exterminations that she sometimes overlooks how it affects those around her, especially Vaggie.
While I wouldn’t say Charlie intentionally does this, she has a habit of charging forward with her plans and expecting Vaggie to keep up or support her without question. That can be draining for someone like Vaggie, who is constantly worrying about Charlie’s safety and the consequences of their actions.
Taking Loyalty for Granted:
Because Vaggie is always there, always defending, always supporting, Charlie may unconsciously take her loyalty for granted. Not cruelly or dismissively, but in a way that people sometimes assume that unconditional love means someone will always be okay, even when they’re burning out. Charlie doesn’t always stop to ask how Vaggie is doing emotionally. That’s a real flaw, and it does mirror how sometimes people who are too focused on saving the world forget to nurture their closest relationships.
Big assumptions below
For Season 2
Unfortunately, we don't have a lot of time which is something I think a show like Hazbin Hotel needs I did hear we are getting more run time tho so
These issues may be subtle in Season 2, as I do know we are getting a lot of the Vees it looks like, but their interference with the hotel can open up some things with Charlie and Vaggie's relationship. The show has a lot going on but I do remember somewhat that Viv said that Season 3 would be about family this could also be a season focusing on Vaggie and Charlie as well.
So for season 2 and maybe going forward into season 3:
Vaggie’s frustration builds (especially Charlie's deal with Alastor if that causes any problems, Charlie being too idealistic and Vaggie not being able to get a word in),
Charlie looks momentarily overwhelmed but still pushes forward dismissing her needs and others, and tension lingers unspoken between them.
In Season 2, I can suspect we’ll see these cracks widen a bit. If Charlie’s plans start to fall apart or put herself and more people in danger, Since at the end of season 1 Vaggie is become more trusting of everyone in the hotel after seeing everyone defend it and putting their lives in danger for the hotel. She even warns them and tell them they are free to leave in ep 7 as they did not sign up to be fighting against heaven, Vaggie might finally push back, leading to a conflict that forces Charlie to step outside her idealism and listen more deeply. That could be a defining emotional arc for both of them:
Charlie learns that she can’t carry the entire moral weight of the world on her own,
and Vaggie learns that she doesn’t have to sacrifice her emotional needs just to support someone else’s dream.
I would love to see a scene where Charlie sincerely apologizes for overlooking Vaggie’s feelings, and Vaggie admits how scared she’s been of losing Charlie to her mission. It would give their relationship even more depth and realism.
Final:
Charlie has flaws, and I think that’s what makes her work so well but also frustrates people because we are so use to putting all of our trust and comfort in the protagonist. She’s hopeful, yes, but she’s not infallible. And the fact that her imperfections hurt the person she loves most makes her feel real and “human”. I think if the show leans into that, Season 2 (or 3) could give us some of the most emotionally resonant moments in their dynamic.
*A slight note can see Vaggies and Charlie's dynamic to be parallel to Lilith and Lucifer but that's just a random theory
Hello. I LOVE your analysis posts on Charlie and Vaggie. If I may ask, what is your personal take on their conflict in S1. I am NOT bashing Charlie, I understand her anger and hurt, but I also can't help but feel she was being somewhat unfair to Vaggie. Like, IDK how to put it but between the two, I couldn't help but feel worse for Vaggie, especially when Charlie made those comments about trusting in Vaggie ("If you knew, would you have even told me?", "You with us?") And for my 2nd question: if there's another conflict in S2, I think it'll be Vaggie mad at Charlie; if so, how do you think that'll be handled?
I will be doing an analysis on Vaggie and Charlie at the same time next I haven't uploaded it even though I've already written it lol cuz I've been busy but it's okay ˶ᵔ ᵕ ᵔ˶
First question: I do believe Charlie reaction to Vaggie lying is contradictory towards her said belief as she advocated for other being a better person and healing from pain and not judging others from their past but she could not hold these belief to her own girlfriend a person she knew for years more than the main cast really. This doesn't make Charlie a bad person it makes her morally grey as she does wish for change and healing other of their addictions and internally pain, believe it or not even if it is driven by her need to feel important to hell and sinners specifically that in of itself is still a good act.
(it must be said that it is completely understandable as to why Charlie is upset about being lied to it’s how she handles this problem that’s being brought up, the thing is Charlie is going to have to find a way to better handle situations like these cuz further on there are going to be people with even worst problems and even more self sabotaging behavior than even Vaggie and those people are not gonna be as competent and quiet about it.)
One thing about Charlie is she takes after her father a lot with her high sense of pride as she's too idealistic and far too focused on her goal that she sometime forgets about how others will react ( farther analysis about this is in my Charlie #1 )
for your second question: maybe, a very soft maybe
The thing about Vaggie when it comes to her relationship with Charlie is that she often doesn't speak up or really puts her foot down with Charlie we hear her in the background questioning Charlie on how Charlie reacts to things and how to promote the hotel but its immediately dismissed or not even acknowledge by Charlie, Vaggie is a lot less critical of Charlie than she is to the other main cast for even random people this would mostly likely come from her deep insincerity and said by the VA Stephanie Beatriz here 21:18, Vaggie herself that Vaggie struggles with the idea of feeling like she deserves love simply disagreeing with your partner might bring her deep fear if that disagreement escalates so she keep quiet
i kind of hate assuming things or making analysis that sounds too bias so take this as my best assessment of what I've gotten out of the character so far
For Vaggie to be upset with Charlie about something i believe it would have to happen from a chain of events and/or bottled up emotions Vaggie is known to always wanting to be in control of situations said on - VIVZIE STREEM- MONDAYS AMIRITE -#3 (2:43:09)
Vaggie is a lot more familiar with heaven and has a lot to say about it I can see her getting angry with Charlie if Charlie somehow behaves like she know more about how Vaggie feels than she does, I can see Vaggie getting angry with Charlie if Charlie interferes with her past and try's to either rewrite or control it for example her relationship with Adam or Lute or any of heaven
