Less Tits n' Ass, More Kickin' Ass

Editing comic book covers, pages and illustrations to turn "babes" back into women

[lesstitsnass]

Every time I see someone say, "Who cares?" about either my own posts or those of other tumblrs on the subject of female representation in comics, I want to point out to them the over 5000 people who've subscribed to lesstitsnass (holy crap over 5000?!), the other thousands and thousands of people who follow eschergirls, all the other blogs that do redlines, The Hawkeye Initiative's slew of participants, the multitudes of articles and comments on all the online magazines that discuss the subject, and say, "Them. They care. There's a whole lot of them. So get your head out of your butt and try to see what they see."

Karine at lesstitsnass

[lesstitsnass]

Hi! I appreciate what you're doing here on this blog (editing art to what you think it should be based on proper proportions, etc.). I think it's great. But I have to wonder - and I'm not sure if it's already been asked here or not - would comics and illustrations still sell as well if they were to stop sexualizing/making "babes" out of their female characters? I'm just trying to see both sides of the issue here. Thanks!

Have some links! 

http://lesstitsnass.tumblr.com/post/95479108617/nice-redraws-on-these-comic-covers-i-have-issues

http://lesstitsnass.tumblr.com/post/48011311548/i-just-found-this-blog-today-and-have-been-having-a

I'm not advocating for the end of sexy. I am saying that you CAN have sexy women drawn like they are actually people. I am also saying that women have other functions than being sexy in comics, and it'd be nice to see more of that. 

Also think about how many women feel when all they see in comics are babes drawn for the straight male gaze, and how they feel when they see women drawn as actually kick ass people. If more comics had the latter rather than the former, you'd be selling to all these no longer uncomfortable women, too. There are a few examples of this in questions in the archive, if you want to take a moment to search. 

Happy reading!

[lesstitsnass]

Don't like it, don't buy it?

Hey so my brother posted this to facebook. I’d love your take on it. I don’t agree with him, as spider-man has a REASON to be in that pose, as his powers include climbing walls, and he has to cling that way to keep him where he is, whereas Spider-woman’s powers and location have NO need for it.

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=spiderwomans_ass

*sigh*

My first impulse when I got this question was to write out all the things this guy's whining about and translating it into what he actually means. The problem with this approach is that it won't help. It won't change his mind, or that of those who agree with him, and would only serve to fuel a flame war, and that's the opposite of what I want this page to be about. 

I will say this: Maddox is entitled to his opinion and he has used a public forum to state it. Therefore, his opinion is open for criticism. My biggest problem with his opinion is that his entire premise is: 

"I don't have a problem with this cover, so you shouldn't either. If you do, you're an idiot or a prude, or both."

He also calls in several false equivalences. The picture of the cover of Spider-Man is one where the superhero's acting like a spider, not a sexdoll. He also completely discredits the opinion of those who were upset, disturbed or otherwise offended by this cover. And because he has a handful of Spider-Man butt pictures, that somehow invalidates the gazillion pieces of art where women are T&A before anything else. His redraw takes Spider-Man (whose bulge is barely defined, really) and turns him into Spider-Woman's camel toe. So he took a non-sexual image and made an exaggeratedly sexual one in response, proving... that he's completely missed the point. 

Oh, I also need to point out how he both tries to shame his opponents by calling them prudes for trying to take sexuality out of the women in comics, but at the same time tells us that sexualisation is in our heads and thus we're perverts for seeing sex where there is none. And the irony doesn't even register. 

Anyway, my basic rebuttal of the webpage on which the video is attached is we can choose to vote with our dollars, but thanks to the internet, we also can send our messages to the creators of those things we want to purchase, and let them know when they advertise something, "yes we like this and we will buy it" or "no, we don't like this, change it so we will be more likely to buy it". I feel this kind of opportunity is one we SHOULD take, but that option seems to be lost on this guy.

Basically, this guy's a blatant example of male privilege at work, with the backlash of "women want to take my stuff away" (especially obvious in his last paragraph). There's nothing I can say or show that will change his mind, because it's already made up. 

And that's sad. 

[eschergirls]

joodit submitted:

Let me just say that while I was scrolling to see the great critiques for Milo Manara’s Spider Woman as soon as that cover was released, I saw this little number & for some reason I couldn’t help but redraw this..

Personally this cover was weak in many ways, and definitely this article as a response & redraw was PERFECT.  The problem was in the way their body language was to convey conflict. There was no conflict.  AT ALL.

First of all, Batgirl’s leg was wrapped around Scorpiana’s thigh (WHY?).  This confused me because there was NOTHING in that image that would want Batgirl to STAY with Scorpiana (an electrified pincer-like attack & giant back-of-the-head stinger to the face are some things that should be avoided).  Then there’s the “tugging of the hair..embrace?”!  I thought the hair tugging is what made Batgirl wrap her leg around Scorpiana, maybe try to counteract the balance of being pulled in another direction..?  Nope.  The tension wasn’t pulling at her hair more than it was to disguise the fact that Scorpiana was pulling Batgirl IN.

And just putting it out there, these COMPLETELY different body languages (i.e. Batgirl pushing everything every which way AWAY from her only to WRAP HERSELF AROUND the villain..?!) make any sense?!  Did their minds say “no” but their bodies say “yes”!?

Anyway..upon observing just these two details, it was clear to me that this was some awkward tango-esque fight scene.  And in some digging (thanks Google), the artist’s intentions WERE to create a fight scene reminiscent of the tango (mainly because Scorpiana is an Argentinian villain & the most famous of Argentine dances is the tango)!  While I applaud his efforts for trying to create a scene of conflict with a famous dance..the tango is a very sensual, sexy dance.  His hint about using a move from the famous dance is more like a blunt object to the head, which ultimately dazes & confuses you into thinking that there was more of a sex vibe than a cultural one.

It’s difficult to incorporate something into an artwork without having your original intentions be skewed upon releasing it to the public because not EVERYONE has the same way of thinking.  And honestly, I would have just thought that this was just another anatomically-incorrect-for-the-sake-of-hot-babe-action.  Instead, I now see it as an anatomically-incorrect-for-the-sake-of-trying-to-be-subtly-cultural.

Speaking of anatomy, Batgirl’s spine is quite honestly thee thinnest, bendiest spine I have seen in a while.  Why?  It seems like the elasticity of her spine has made itself clear in her neck. Pushing her back & pushing her neck in opposite directions will surely sever that poor thing that is her skeletal structure.  As well as her head that seems to be unaware it’s moving too far away.  But for whatever reason, as structurally unsound her body looks, Batgirl lives.  Believe me when I say my rendering of anatomy is NOT accurate, but if it LOOKS somewhat structurally sound then it can work.  This cover didn’t have that stability.

In the redraw, I immediately discarded the fact that this was meant to be a tango scene (and while the tango is sexual, it also conveys a strong feeling of trust..I mean, look at how close & how fluid tango partners are with their movements.  IT’S FREAKIN’ AWESOME, but that is NOT the feeling I wanted to convey between Batgirl & Scorpiana).  I also tried NOT to have Batgirl’s body bend in an unnatural fashion.

I tried to create a scenario where the very details I noticed about the image that threw me off were to be justified.  I had the Scorpiana threatening Batgirl off the ledge of a building by her hair (sorry for not drawing the buildings, maybe next time..), stinging her with her stinger or pincer-like thing or choke her.  This would all justify why Batgirl would wrap her leg around Scorpiana’s thigh.

Is my redraw anatomically accurate?  Nope.  But at least Batgirl’s head isn’t poppin’ off any time soon, nor are the two going to dance while killing each other.

Thanks for all the work you did to explain what’s going on in the original, and finding out the intent of the artist! :)  I had thought it looked like a dance too (as had another redrawer) but it’s good to know for sure.

And also thanks for going through your entire thought process as to why you drew your version the way you did, and what you thought it should convey thematically.  I love seeing different people’s takes on pictures featured on this blog, and I especially enjoy reading people’s breakdowns of what the scene evoked for them and how they see it.

[lesstitsnass]

It's good to know that the original artist intended this to be a tango-like pose, but I definitely agree that this required retooling. This is very nicely done. 

[lesstitsnass]

Hey, I want to thank you for doing this. I just found your blog, and what really struck me is how GOOD these women looked once they were given realistic bodies and positions. They look dynamic, powerful, heroic. Seeing them makes me happy and depressed simultaneously - they're great, but I realise how much we're missing by not getting them in the original products. If women like that were featured more often, I might yet get into comics. Thanks for your work, I love it!

Thanks a lot! 

However, I realise that this is one of the problems with a blog like this one. Because it concentrates the problem situations into one spot, it can make people feel that this is an overwhelming problem that makes them want to run away from it, or it can raise some people's hackles in feeling like all there is is nothing but griping. 

eschergirls (which is a great eye-opening blog about the issues and the source of many of the redlines I've done or reblogged) and lesstitsnass both have this. I've tried, in the early days of lesstitsnass, to point out some awesome work at the same time as I've posted some redraws, but the focus became a lot more on the redraws than the good work being done by some fantastic comic book artists out there. 

So that's why, after reading this post of yours, for people like you who are turned off by the sexualisation of the female body in comics, I've decided to create a sister blog to this one, which takes the second half of the title of this one: morekickinass, and I invite people to search for and submit great comic book art of women, so people can see how excellent it is when it's done right. 

[lesstitsnass]

Hi! I was just wondering if you already have posted or would be willing to post some tutorials/basics on how you draw the way you do, and maybe some resources for how to get a better understanding of the human form? Your anatomy is always so realistic and amazing, and you seem to have an in-depth knowledge of how the body does the thing and what it should NOT look like because OH MY GOD WHERE DID HER PELVIS GO, ect. Thanks for your time, and have a nice day!

Hi! 

I haven't posted any tutorials specifically about this, but I have made book recommendations as well as told people repeatedly about the incredible value of life drawing classes.

I do have something in the works in terms of tutorials: I've started work on a book about using observational art in order to draw from your head. I really want to set aside time to work on it, but work is often very time consuming and the idea of writing+drawing a whole book is something that seems very daunting to me. I'll need to really actively block out time in my week to work on this thing so I can actually get it done! 

If you are really interested in getting the life drawing training I received (and have the cash to invest in that education), I will recommend Samantha Youssef's training offered at Studio Technique. I've mentioned Disney veteran animator/professional artistic trainer Samantha before in this blog and what I've learned from her has been invaluable to me. 

Best of luck! 

[lesstitsnass]

I like your work a lot in general, but the boob tutorial (I'm not even sure if this is yours) is off. I worked as a nude art photographer for several years and I have seen many, many breasts, mostly natural. There are various shapes of natural breast, even at larger sizes. From a biological perspective, breasts also vary in makeup. Most breasts are predominately fatty tissue but some are much more muscular. In short, you can't tell if a woman's breasts are real by their shape.

There are two or three breast tutorials I reblogged it from other artists, and the general idea is sound. However, you're right, there are many, many breast shapes; however saying a breast is muscular isn't strictly right as the pectoral muscle lies underneath the breast. I can see how the strength/bulk of it might change the shape of the breast, though. 

All in all, the tutorials are there to mostly make people think about how breasts are shaped, where they are positioned, and how they react to gravity, pressure, constriction, etc. Any tutorial is not the end-all of "this is how you MUST do things", but one of many learning tools out there. 

As far as natural/augmented breasts and how you can tell goes, there is a line in that tutorial (if it's the one I'm thinking of) that says something along the lines of "which one's real, which one's fake? It's none of your business" with the two side-by-side girls who look like they have identical breasts. So really... the point of it remains that in order to draw breasts that look right, the best thing to do is to observe breasts and draw them. 

[lesstitsnass]

Re: Manara cover redlines

Just to let you know: I have received a lot of messages regarding this. A lot of them repeat each other, and a lot point out the same things. I will try and condense things into few posts, combine several of your asks together, so as to not fill dashboards with a bunch of asks that will likely be repetitive after a while. This will take me some time because, like I said, there's a LOT of material to go through here.

Thanks for your patience! 

[keiren-smith-blog]

A woman wrote this. Yes I'm a woman. And I wrote this. It contains opinions.

Been asked for my opinion (in phone calls and PMs I’ve gotten) and I’ve pointed out that I’ve tried to not comment on ‘the’ cover directly (I’m sure I slipped up somewhere! Gotta be honest, I giggle so hard every time I see it that it’s hard to put a thought together). My entire point, my near-constant argument in life, is that people get to have opinions… and by people, I mean “women”.

Short version:  most women are terrified to speak out loud and express an opinion. They are utterly petrified to do so when they are addressing issues of women, sexism and feminism. The internet has emboldened women to speak out more—but it has also enabled men to easily put more effort into silencing them, or threatening them into silence. When I say “terrified” I mean TERRIFIED. All of you were able to grasp how horrible it was when Janelle Assellin wrote about the death and rape threats she gets…none of you seem to get that the constant onslaught of mockery, sneering and general disrespect is equally exhausting. (Do consider, gentlemen:  You find a woman daring to criticise a working comics pro or illustrator as “disrespectful”, appalling, etc. but you have utterly no problem with mocking her or her defenders across the internet and starting memes to continue that mocking. She’s not entitled to her opinion…so she’s entitled to YOURS telling her that.) Most women I know fear having that spill into public encounters with these men, and having to work or socialise in now-toxic environments. To that end, I have had many private talks with women genuinely upset with the online discussion about the cover, or the levels of vitriol found in the social media accounts of men, even comics pros, they admire. Thus, they are fearful to engage.

The first argument is, of course, that YOU are equally entitled to your opinion.

Read More

[kanthara]

Thank you so much for this, Keiren! Your support and explanations really mean a lot to me. I’m reblogging this in both my main tumblr and lesstitsnass. 

Also a big thank you to Yanick Paquette, who pointed me towards this post in Facebook, and revised his stance about the situation after reaching out to me and chatting. The positive feedback REALLY outweighs the negative crap I’ve been getting, and I’m grateful for each and every piece of constructive commentary I’ve been receiving (yes, even the ones that disagree with me, if the issue is about the topic at hand, not on my person or other derailing tactics). 

This is how criticism works, people. I commented about a piece that I thought was a problem in its posing. People who’ve disagreed with me by sending me 3D models showing the pose are actually arguing for the validity of the anatomy, and these are VALID CRITICISMS of my own criticisms. YES. This is how it works. I will comment on these as soon as I can, but first I have 5 pages of script left to storyboard on this episode, and I want to deliver tonight. Yay deadlines! 

[lesstitsnass]

FYI.

I have a bunch of asks in my inbox, and I will get to all of them, but I have a more pressing storyboard deadline so I'll get to your messages as soon as that's put to bed. Thanks! 

[lesstitsnass]

Nice redraws on these comic covers. I have issues, though. I agree that looking like you have no internal organs, or that your back bone is made of rubber is pretty bad, but comic book artists have to ensure that covers are as appealing as possible to entice new readers to pickup their issues. The problem I have with some of your redraws is that, for some of them, everything looks too static and undynamic. Sure, they're anatomically correct, but sometimes, you have to skew bodies to sell.

Yes, but. 

An enticing cover doesn’t have to be sexualised to be enticing. There are plenty of artists that make kickass covers with great women looking awesome. This blog is a repository of the ones that are twisting for the sake of T&A, and I do agree some of my redraws are much weaker than they could have been, and that’s because 1- I’m not perfect, 2- I’m always learning and 3- redrawing over another existing drawing stiffens up everything. I’m trying to keep roughly the same pose as what was originally drawn and showing you don’t have to thrust out her ass or arch her chest out to make something appealing. 

Listen, I do this blog partly as an educational thing. I want people to develop a critical eye, question what they see, shift the status quo, and if they are artists, pick up a few tips along the way. There’s a reason I keep these sketches loose and unfinished. I’m not trying to comment on people’s style, I’m commenting on their posing choices, and urging people to rethink how they approach art of female characters. I’m not saying “my way or the highway”, I’m saying “it could be better and here’s a suggestion”.

In the recent redraw I did, I fixed Greg Land’s cover because the art wasn’t well composed, but it wasn’t a sexualised cover. As soon as I fixed the legs on SW, I realised the composition would now be crap because the legs would be in front of Silk. I still plodded on. The Manara cover I fixed because the posing WAS sexualised, the pose made me feel uncomfortable, and I wasn’t the only one who felt that way about it. I have nothing against the man as an artist or against his skills. I have nothing against erotic art. The rendering was very nice (if the costume was meant as body paint). I just argued that his posing choice was inappropriate for this cover. 

I’ll lead you to my post about style for more discussion on the matter. Look in particular at my comments on Joe Mad to get what I’m saying.

[toughlovemuse]

The other unasked question here is, if bodies have to be skewed “to sell”, who is it that they’re “selling” to, exactly?

The answer is obvious - it positions the book as being FOR GUYS, in particular guys who have a spider-woman wank fantasy. Which is fine if you happen to be one of those guys, but Marvel might lose out in the long run.

I will not be buying this book regularly - at the very least not until I see some reviews telling me that (a) the interior art doesn’t sexualize her the way the exterior art does, and (b) that the writing is well-handled.

Since I would otherwise have been willing to buy it on Day 1 (after the Avengers Assemble run by Kelly Sue, I have been keen to see a Spider-Woman monthly), Marvel can count me as a LOST sale because of the cover art. And the flap about these covers on social media tells me I’m not alone in feeling this way.

[camharr-deactivated20141019]

Thanks to a university class on advertising, whenever I see/hear “sex sells,” I mentally change it to “women’s bodies sell” for better accuracy. Not even “women”—just the bodies, or parts thereof.

[jessicalprice]

Well, and actually sex, as it turns out, doesn’t necessarily sell. It gets people’s attention, but it actually reduces their ability to remember what you were selling in the first place. 

[lesstitsnass]

I actually covered this as well in another lesstitsnass post over a year ago. Thanks for the additional feedback on this, guys! 

Personally, I will also make that mental switch to "women's bodies sell". 

[lesstitsnass]

Nice redraws on these comic covers. I have issues, though. I agree that looking like you have no internal organs, or that your back bone is made of rubber is pretty bad, but comic book artists have to ensure that covers are as appealing as possible to entice new readers to pickup their issues. The problem I have with some of your redraws is that, for some of them, everything looks too static and undynamic. Sure, they're anatomically correct, but sometimes, you have to skew bodies to sell.

Yes, but. 

An enticing cover doesn't have to be sexualised to be enticing. There are plenty of artists that make kickass covers with great women looking awesome. This blog is a repository of the ones that are twisting for the sake of T&A, and I do agree some of my redraws are much weaker than they could have been, and that's because 1- I'm not perfect, 2- I'm always learning and 3- redrawing over another existing drawing stiffens up everything. I'm trying to keep roughly the same pose as what was originally drawn and showing you don't have to thrust out her ass or arch her chest out to make something appealing. 

Listen, I do this blog partly as an educational thing. I want people to develop a critical eye, question what they see, shift the status quo, and if they are artists, pick up a few tips along the way. There's a reason I keep these sketches loose and unfinished. I'm not trying to comment on people's style, I'm commenting on their posing choices, and urging people to rethink how they approach art of female characters. I'm not saying "my way or the highway", I'm saying "it could be better and here's a suggestion".

In the recent redraw I did, I fixed Greg Land's cover because the art wasn't well composed, but it wasn't a sexualised cover. As soon as I fixed the legs on SW, I realised the composition would now be crap because the legs would be in front of Silk. I still plodded on. The Manara cover I fixed because the posing WAS sexualised, the pose made me feel uncomfortable, and I wasn't the only one who felt that way about it. I have nothing against the man as an artist or against his skills. I have nothing against erotic art. The rendering was very nice (if the costume was meant as body paint). I just argued that his posing choice was inappropriate for this cover. 

I'll lead you to my post about style for more discussion on the matter. Look in particular at my comments on Joe Mad to get what I'm saying.

[lesstitsnass]

It's a two-fer! Courtesy of @dcwomenkickingass, and specifically this post, I had to do an edit of these, while my storyboards wait. 

I'm not going to go into long explanations here, I hope the drawings do speak for themselves. In the first case, it's a Land being Land, although I do have to say that he did give a butt to Silk, as opposed to his usual ablation of hips and gluteus maximi. However, he unfortunately did it wrong. 

Artistic anatomy is all about drawing structure, from the inside out. Your muscles by themselves can't look right if they aren't placed on top of a properly proportioned skeleton.  Boobs won't look right if they aren't drawn as following the curve of the ribcage, its center line, or the movement of the arms which either pull or push on the pectorals on which the breasts hang. The arms back mean the shoulders are lowered, and the angle of the hands will be different since there's a 3/4 turn on the torso. It shows that Land is drawing by guessed shapes, copied contours and practiced repeated motions. There's no real structure underneath his shapes.

And if we look at the legs, I can only picture Kitty Pride phasing out of a wall: the legs look like they got mangled up to look like stumps. But even structure-wise, there is no thought put into whether the pose actually works, which is why it looks so clumsy. The legs should be reversed due to the line of action that's in the torso but not followed through into the pelvis and legs. And I've been using the coil technique a lot in order to make my volumes work - it should be obvious by the roughs above - which help me figure out things like foreshortening. 

Silk too was a problem of lack of structure, proportions all over the place, and lack of weight and purpose, but it felt moreso than Spiderwoman. I used the same pose Land did but worked out the skeleton first, using rotation arcs in order to properly proportion the length of the various limbs. I don't know these characters and I might not have used these poses, but Silk here definitely looks like she's dancing.

The variant cover by Manara looks like a pose right out of porn, pelvis up and cheeks spread, costume looking like body paint, and it makes me very uncomfortable. She doesn't look like a superhero about to strike, she looks like she's about to get... well, it's a porn pose. This is sexualisation. It also reminds me of the Dog Bone sexy shape. 

So I turned the pose sideways to figure it out, and to see what would work better. The sideways pose as is, as you can see, is angled to do quite the opposite of ass-kicking. Were she to try to leap from that pose, she'd fall flat on her face. The second pose is the "coiled like a spring", but in the camera angle of the cover, it's an ugly, ugly pose. So I tried to do something in-between, and just by making the pelvis horizontal and lifting the torso off the ground, I've managed to move the center of gravity so her weight is on her feet instead of her knees, she can use her arms to maneuver in most directions, and you still get an interesting body shape to look at. I think this works better, and much more ready to spring into motion.

Wanted also to say thanks for all the reblogs, likes and recent follows! I appreciate each one of them, and it's because you're still sharing and commenting that I came back to do this. However I'm still really busy! I won't be posting a lot, but I do plan on posting more than I have. Back to storyboards for me! 

[kanthara]

Oh hey artists and those who want to be artists!

Betty Edwards’ book “Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” is available as a starter kit at Chapters! I don’t know if the kit is available online, but I saw it on one of the tables on my way out of the store. You can check Indigo, as well, since it’s all the same company.

This is one of those how to draw books that I readily recommend because I find it is the best book to learn how to draw what you see, not what you know. If you don’t have it yet and have a Chapters near by, go and get it. It’s worth it.

[lesstitsnass]

After reading your blog I decided to try the boobs and butt pose.. and it worked (painfully). So I suppose it is possible.. however I have Ehlers-Danlos and am capable of doing stuff that people without the disorder couldn't and shouldn't do. Also it looks totally gross and unnatural when I do it.

The point of the boobs and butt pose has been explained in this blog both by myself and other people I've reblogged. It's not a natural pose. It's a forced one. It's one that happens only on purpose, or during a particular effort (see She-Hulk demonstration), and when it's in the latter case, it's a snapshot pose. It's not one that lasts, it's a transition pose.

When a person turns in surprise, the whole body shifts and turns. The hips don't lock in place and the torso doesn't swivel at the waist. I have seen people demonstrate that it IS possible to do a "boobs and butt" pose, but every single time it looks stiff, unnatural, strained, and too obviously staged in order to show said boobs and butt. 

And you mention you have a condition that allows you to do it, but you comment that it was painful and looks unnatural. So yes, you do illustrate that the point remains. Boobs and butt poses are a problem, and they really shouldn't be drawn anymore. 

[lesstitsnass]

Are you aware of Hark, a vagrant's webcomics about Strong Female Characters?

But of course! And I adore them. I think I made fanart at some point. Need to find it...

[lesstitsnass]

Can I ask for some advice? I am thinking of a design for a character, but I am unsure about a few things.

You could, if you email me directly. Check my "who's behind this thing" link in the side bar. Since you're anonymous, I can't reply to you only, so sorry about the public, extremely general reply.

This goes for everyone. I'm not anonymous, here. If you want to ask me questions that aren't directly related to badly drawn comic book women, you can contact me directly. Keep in mind I'm really busy with storyboards (which I why I don't post here much anymore, these analyses take hours to research, redraw and type up) but I do read email, and unless you're asking me for hours of my time, I can give you feedback.