fandom grandma

Don't make me turn this car around.

[lynnenne]

The Myth of the Americas in AMC’s Interview With the Vampire

Analysis of the series through the lens of colonial racism, and how it impacts character dynamics in the show. Mainly a primer for white viewers who aren’t well versed in these topics. Black people already know most of this and are welcome to add their own insights, but it’s not their job to teach us about racism. It’s on us to unlearn it.

Here on my Dreamwidth journal

[oobliet]

i genuinely think the tvl finale would have been saved by putting lestat in louis' place in the torture scene

beyond that i think from a filmmaking perspective IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SO INTERESTING

cutting back between lestat at the table and armand torturing him would have been so cunt and actually connected the scenes, having it all feel like its driving to a finale, rather than lestat not doing much and louis having an unrelated side adventure

structually it would solidify that the season is about LESTAT

what better way to show you failed in your life then your ex boyfriend hating you and be obssessed with you so much that he beheaded you and asked for an apology?

we would have gotten the culmination of lesmand NOT TALKING about their relationship and maybe got some hints are more information

we would have seen Armand confronting his own repressed feelings about lestat

the seeds that were planted that armand was pissed at lestat would have paid off (where as not once was it EVER implied he was still mad at louis, enough to do all this)

armand torturing lestat would have added to the tone that what lestat was doing/was planning to do was DANGEROUS and that he's about to fuck around and find out, which then would have further supported his turn on gabriella at the end

daniel monologuing at and playing keep away with louis' head would be more compelling, as they actually have a character relationship

the phone countdown would have been more suspenseful intercut with fareed not sure if he could sew the head back on

louis popping up at the end so much more heartbreaking as we wouldnt KNOW that he was fine

it makes me really upset more than anything knowing how EASY it would have been to make this work, but they didnt

[jeunesseoubliee]

You know it's a Gothic Horror show, and you're supposed to feel uncomfortable, right? I do. But do you? Do you, Rolin, and Hannah understand that? Because from where I stand, only the Black characters seem to be trapped in a horror story. The others appear to be in a completely different genre.

The issue isn't that viewers like myself don't want to feel uncomfortable. The issue is that, in this Gothic Horror show, Black characters disproportionately bear the brunt of the violence.

Take this season finale as an example.

At the end of Episode 6, two characters are beheaded. Yet in Episode 7, we are shown the severed head and mutilated body of the black character in explicit details, while the white character's mutilated body is shown only briefly and out of focus, and his severed head is hidden from us.

Louis's arc is presented as a parallel to Lestat's. Both characters are placed in situations where they must confront people they have wronged, or at least people the narrative insists they have wronged, as well as their pasts, relationships, and mistakes. (Personally, I don't believe Louis owes Armand anything, but the narrative clearly wants the audience to think otherwise.🙄🙄🙄)

Yet the way these parallel journeys are depicted are drastically different.

Lestat's reckoning unfolds in beautiful rooms, elegant spaces, and dreamlike settings. He sits comfortably while listening to the grievances of the people in his life. He argues back. He reflects. He moves through beautiful environments, from grand rooms to forests and back again. Even when he is forced to confront painful memories, the experience is framed as introspection. The focus remains on his emotional and psychological journey.

Meanwhile, Louis is placed in what looks like a torture room straight out of a Saw movie. His severed head sits on a table, hooked up to a machine. His body is positioned across from him, forcing him to stare at it. His suffering is not just physical; it is public and humiliating. His torture is broadcast for others to watch and study. His pain becomes both spectacle and data. He is joined by Regina, another Black character, whose torture is used as leverage against him.

The man torturing Louis demands an apology, not for any genuine wrongdoing, but because Louis failed to love him the way he believed he deserved to be loved, and failed to show enough empathy for his trauma. This is the same man who murdered Louis's daughter in a lynching and attempted to murder Louis in that same lynching, and who, only minutes earlier, boasted that he took aesthetic pleasure in making Louis's death visually exhilarating as part of that lynching.

And so the torture continues. Louis is pushed to the brink of death. Regina is slicing her wrist. Eventually, Louis gives in. He apologizes. He accepts responsibility not only for hurting his torturer's feelings but for the torture itself. He tells his torturer that his coldness and denial drove him (the torturer) to these actions (the torture). The torturer receives the apology he wants, ends the torture, heals and frees Regina, and leaves, but not before carving the letter "A" onto Louis's mutilated body.

Meanwhile, Lestat is still moving through beautiful settings, confronting his past, and listening to others condemn him for the failures of his life. His story reaches its climax in the final act, when he is surrounded by the people in his life and the people he has wronged, some of whom are cheering him on. Rather than being subjected to physical degradation, he is given space for self-reflection. The focus remains on his memories, his relationships, his mistakes, the horrors he has committed, and his regrets. He eventually acknowledges some of his mistakes and even apologizes to one of his victims. Instead of fleeing from his past, he chooses to face it. His reckoning culminates in understanding, and the arc ultimately ends with imagery that evokes transcendence, as though he is ascending to heaven.

Both Louis and Lestat are given parallel narrative arcs centered on confronting their pasts, their relationships, and the harm they have caused. Yet the show presents those reckonings through vastly different visual and narrative lenses. Lestat's journey is psychological, reflective, and aesthetically beautiful. Louis's journey is a sustained ordeal of physical and psychological torture, humiliation, and degradation. One character is invited to examine himself; the other is turned into a spectacle of suffering. While Lestat is afforded reflection, Louis is afforded degradation.

And I'm supposed to look at that contrast and just shrug and say, "Well, that's Gothic horror for you"? Really? Take the blinders off. Look at what is being asked of Louis and compare it to what is being asked of Lestat. One is granted introspection, reflection, and, ultimately, transcendence. The other is subjected to torture, humiliation, and spectacle. The genre does not erase that disparity. If anything, it makes it more obvious.

My issue is not the horror. My issue is who is repeatedly asked to embody that horror, whose pain is treated as spectacle, and whose pain is afforded dignity, nuance, and care.

[bratprincetamer]

Also, regarding Rolin's words sourced from this post by @usaginoir ( thank you so much for watching After Dark 🙏) :

"Rolin says basically that maybe it felt nothing happened but that’s only because Lestat has such a strong “armor” and doesn’t want to look inside himself and that they need another season to actually explore him as a character"

Part of developing a character is figuring things like this out before you commit to writing the story, asking yourself questions like "she's tough but what would make her crack?", "he never cries but what could push hime to that point?" And if he couldn't figure that out in roughly 7 hours of television then he's not going to figure it out next season, that's not happening, and I'm not waiting two years for that shit.

[slitherbite]

yknow. i thought "im glad that j anderson is starring in a well done show after dealing with the racist shithole that was game of thrones" and. Well. uhm.

[rooksilver]

new tvl theory there IS a secret 8th episode but its also bad

[antigonickpdf]

the thought i keep coming back to with the finale, and this season in general, is a sense of… infestation, i guess is the best way to describe it. because for the first two seasons, iwtv was a work that— even with all its gothic/horror themes— seemed deeply compassionate at its core, and it remained devoted to beauty and love in a way that felt like a reprieve from (even a small rebellion against) the rising fascism of the culture surrounding it. and now it feels like the hatefulness it was pushing back against has infested it somehow, like a swarm of fuckin termites, which has not only ruined this season but also calls into question the structural soundness of what came before it. like, how did we even get here? was this sort of mean-spirited derision always just lying in wait? idk. i don’t want to make a bad season of tv deeper than it is, but it does feel like witnessing another loss in the cultural battle when a careful, compassionate work that ostensibly cared about the marginalised experiences it depicted becomes just another conduit for hatred toward vulnerable groups. what a fucking bummer, man

[bratprincetamer]

I think what scares me most about Lestat fans is their stubborn loyalty. They claim to understand media analysis, yet even when the show has screamed that Lestat was wrong, hell even when Lestat himself admits it, they deny it. They claim to be antiracist and then they speak over Black people who ridicule a fictional character. They claim to support LGBTQ+ rights and then they ignore the ways Lestat weaponizes his masculinity and attraction to women in order to harm or intimidate other LGBTQ+ people ( I have thoughts later on the shower scene and Lestat as bisexual representation ). They claim to care about the marginalized and abused members of society and then they prop up concepts like mutual abuse, as if it is ever acceptable to physically attack a teenage girl for wanting your mistreated partner to leave you and then beating and nearly killing your partner for fighting back. These are not ignorant or uninformed people : these are dedicated readers, some of them a decade or more older than I am, some with college degrees, these are people who can create art and organize fandom events. This is a deliberate choice to ignore, silence and manipulate information. This is targeted, coordinated and strategic harassment, bigotry and oppression, all continuations of more than a century of white supremacist tactics. These people are as conniving as Lost Cause proponents.

[certifiedlurker]

Like at this point you have to at least guess that something is fishy if professional reviewers are releasing article after article tut tutting at fans who are even mildly critical of TVL. Like you have to just stop once and think: okay why do they want us to like it so bad, that even one person disagreeing would make them pop a blood vessel. Like you have to wonder why they are like: guys, guyyyyysss you HAVE to watch it multiple times to GET IT OMGGG! like why are they cushioning? Is there something to cushion? What is there that they want to cushion? Why are they uncomfortable that they are throwing beige pillows at us. Like hmm....like even if you are annoyed at the criticisms- at least you have to wonder about that you know?

[excretal]

this is kinda the superstructure of tvl to me like the essence of the trial still perspires heavily throughout every area.. split second flashback to s1/s2. lestat feels something? but deflects. plot picks up he’s moved to another location. vo/song lyrics denigrate louis. retcon prior events to absolve lestat of all wrongdoings

[geenawrites]

‘The Vampire Lestat’ and The Bones of it All

This is Lestat’s odyssey, but can it compete with Thee Interview?

"Lestat wants to build the kind of empathy Vampire created for a character like Louis, but fundamentally lacked a supporting cast that would push-and-pull against Lestat. Everyone in his flashbacks are either yelling at him, or explaining things to him. It’s incredibly different from watching Louis’s relationships with his family crumble, his relationship with Lestat and Claudia begin, or how he gradually loses his mortal life in isolation to Lestat. The audience for Louis is also not likely to empathize with a character who was became Louis’s jailer."

[gurlsixx]

I’m so glad I never suggested this show to anyone. Especially not my mother. The segregated South isn’t a history lesson or black and white photos online, it’s a lived experience for her. Growing up, she was always searching for positive representation for herself and her children to watch and read about. I’m old enough to remember shouting and running to the tv whenever someone that looked like me was on tv.

Ep one season one still makes me so emotional when I watch it. A television series centered around a Black man. And not just him, we got to know his family (!) and their traditions and beliefs.

As much as she would love Nola Louis (especially that first episode), it would ultimately break her heart. Watching Louis’ journey and the stirring and powerful ending of season two would have my momma pumping her fist and saying, “I know that’s right! They better act like they know!” upon hearing, “I own the night!” Only for her to witness the horrible back of the bus treatment of Jacob/Louis from the marketing (that started before the credits cleared on s2) to the erasure and humbling of Louis’ character. And not just onscreen.

Yeah, maybe I’ll just tell her what amc told us: IWTV is its own thing and not at all connected to their next chapter, “nothing to see over there Ma!”

[decomposingfungi]

tvl episode simulation

lestat: *awful french(?) accent* fam they are low-key trying to cancel me for serving too much cunt all because i'm too camp and too whimsical and now the woke mobe is coming for me but they'll have to take the L because I HAVE THE BLOOD OF AKASHA IN ME iykyk i'm just living rent-free in your minds because i'm looking snatched periodt

*five minutes musical video with the worst song you have ever heard*

gabriella: *count dracula accent* uuuuh lestat fuck me !! fuck mamma again and again and again !! i want sex i want to be FUCKED i want to suck a cock i love cock i only think of cock and murder uuuuuh lestat let's kill all humanity

daniel: did you stutter as a child? did you stutter as a child? did you stutter as a child? did you stutter as a child? oh and also: *seven different slurs*

louis: oh i'm sorry i'm a selfish bastard i'm a bad person i should be humbled *random slurs are said his way*

armand: *opens his eyes two seconds before the episode ends*

[lottafeelingsinhere]

"If you complain about the best queer show on tv, they'll cancel it"

The show has 3x better ratings than expected, constructive criticism isn't going to get it canceled

You don't seem to understand how progress works. Are you familiar with the overton window? Bc you don't get the gay black vampire show in the first place by keeping your mouth shut and being grateful for whatever slop Hollywood decides is good enough for you. Ppl had to keep speaking up and being exceptionally annoying to get where we are and they will actually keep taking more and more away from you if you do keep your mouth shut. When the director of Silence of the Lambs heard the feedback about transphobia, he said that militants are important to continuing progress in society and media. If that guy can take the criticism and be cool, so can Rolin Jones. And stop leaving it to the ppl who are directly affected by racist writing to do all the work.

This show has become less explicitly queer now that it has been made/come out during the second Trump term (James Dolan, friends with Trump is a ceo of Amc and was at the Lestat premier) the marketing has downplayed the diverse characters, the nonwhite characters have far less screentime (even Armand who has much more of a prescence in books 2 and 3). This is not a coincidence. This is a pattern in history when goverments become more fascist and conservative. If you're genuinely curious to learn more, the "You Must Remember This" podcast has a series about the red list in old Hollywood where basically any progressive hollywood creative was blacklisted especially if they were anti nazi "too soon" before the US decided to do anything about WWII (bc facsism was kind of our thing you see). And understanding the Hayes code, how it was implemeneted and fluctuated to suppresse any remotely peogresive ideas is important to understand. Margaret Killjoy also has a few episodes on her "Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff" podcast about the progressive gay film making happening in Germany just before fascism took hold. Don't comply ahead of time. It does you no favors.

"You're risking the jobs of the actors of color by complaining"

Black writers and a director already lost their jobs. Do they not matter also? We can get into the pedantic arguments about whether the writing was racist or not, idrgaf. At the end of the day, getting rid of your black writers is a racist action in and of itself. Did they leave of their own volition? Maybe (and I'd be curious to know why ALL left if that's the case) but why not hire new black writers? At least one? You still have black main characters even if the new protagonist is white. Did AMC make them do it? Maybe so in which case it's worth yelling at AMC about it. And even if they did, I've seen showrunners quit over less so maybe Rolin sees caring about diverse stories as a 2020 fad that he's over now 🤷‍♀️

The poc characters have far less screentime already. Perhaps voicing our desire for them to have more screentime might I don't know...achieve something. Or you can just sit bk, be grateful for what they give you as they keep stripping away anything of value. Up to you I guess. I'm going to keep being annoying.

Also this argument is so deeply disingenuous. You should be supporting black creatives sure but maybe put that energy towards supporting black creatives who actually have creative control of their work. Directors, writers, producers, editors. Also, no one has been complaining about the poc actors. Every complaint i see has been couched in "obviously Jacob/Delainey/Assad are amazing but..."

"Shouldn't you care about what black ppl are going through in the real world instead?"

You're never going to believe this but a lot of us can do 2 things at once. In fact, most of the ppl I see criticize the racism of the show care about real world shit. Scroll down our blogs and you'll find current events, history, mutual aid fundraisers, commentary on what's happening in the world. It's almost as though caring about racism in reality might translate to caring about representation in media. It's almost as tho caring about racism in the real world might have attracted us to the initial themes of the show in the first place.

"You guys just don't like complicated characters or understand gothic horror/you didn't read the books"

Most of the criticism I've read are from knowledgeable books fans. Gothic horror fans. Ppl who liked the nuance/morally grey aspect of the characters. Even ppl who shipped Loustat at the end of season 1. They have a lot of suggestions on small changes that could be done to that seance scene to fix it. (While still keeping Claudia's anger and character intact) perhaps you could read their input (I share a lot of what I see on my blog) instead of being disingenuous about what their actual criticism is.

"Only white ppl are complaining about this. Black ppl don't care amd they like the show"

So that's a lie 🤷‍♀️ the ppl I learned from about the nuanced ins and outs of this are black. Scroll on down this blog. Click on their blogs. Check em out. Learn something. I get that you got excited about the couple of black ppl you found to agree with you but, can't believe i have to say this, black folks are not a monolith?

"The show characters were always racist"

The show always dealt with themes of racism. Daniel said racist microaggressions. Lestat was racist. Yes. Correct. I haven't seen anyone argue that that was not the case. What i have seen them argue is that the show (without black writers to advise) has Daniel and Lestat say racist things for more shock value/humor with no pushback, in the exact same ways when culturally they would be different. It's almost as tho the writers are just making racist jokes they find funny. I recommend you check out Rolin's first tv show, Weeds, to see the same pattern. The show started as a critique of white wealthy sheltered suburbanites who were framed as being shitty for saying racist things. There were nonwhite characters who were not (at least not fully :/) stereotypes to show that the viewpoints were false. Then over the seasons, the racist white characters are just funny little blorbos who constantly make racist jokes unchecked with no poc of that group around to check them...sound familiar? No one is contradicting Lestat's narrative. Daniel has not been able to push bk on him the way he did on Louis. And Louis was not around Daniel to push bk on the kentucky fried chicken comment and Claudia is not around to push bk on Lestat's racism bc when she is around she's the one saying racist shit to Louis and says almost nothing negative to Lestat. At a certain point you're not making commentary, you're just reveling in saying racist things. And the ppl i see arguing against this are the same ppl i see repeating the kentucky fried chicken comment as their own joke. So i have a hard time taking them seriously when they claim that the writers aren't racist, they are just writing dialogue for a racist gothic horror character. Are the writers writing your dialogue too?

Not telling you to not like the show. Hollywood is racist. Our society is racist. It's going to be really hard to find media that isn't going to fuck something up (particularly ableism). Post about your love of the show. I'm not going to come for you. I'm still going to post things i like about the show (tho I may avoid a S4 if they double down on the mistakes they've made this season). You can pry Armand from my cold dead hands. No matter how cartoon villain they go with it. You need not take the criticism from ppl with lived experience and knowledge on this personally. Just...maybe learn...maybe even yell at AMC.

[ohwolfling]

I want you to know that it's not normal to have editorial pieces scolding an audience for not enjoying a season of television or critiquing how specific characters or storylines are handled. I want you to know that I've been writing in the pop culture/infotainment sector for a decade and that in the last three years publications/sites have gotten increasingly paranoid about criticizing or seeming mean about media, right alongside relying on partnerships with distributors/streamers to cover things they'll promote or get exclusives because the AI nonsense, shifting algorithms, and Google intentionally shitting the bed has made organic and clickbait views harder to come by.

It was weird to see major publications tut tut when The Pitt fans had rightful, well documented, and thoroughly supported by context concerns about the treatment of WOC and all women on screen. It's weird now to see TVGuide whine 4/7 episodes into The Vampire Lestat, neé Interview with the Vampire, that it's unfair to "judge" the show.

Analysis is everything. Do not fall for this shit. They're very likely paid pieces. The writers who take them on might just be desperately trying to hit a quota, but if you dig and that person is also an editor, they're just someone you can't trust to be honest about media ever.

If you read my tumblr post or larger piece on Alicent Hightower (tagged hotd, posted recently, can't link well on mobile), you'll notice that I'm not telling anyone to not critique the show or dig into the story. You'll notice my focus is supporting my argument and making space for conversation. It is so counter intuitive to what analysis and criticism are to write pieces like the ones I mentioned. It's bizarre and I think it's unethical. Please, please, please - even if you hate a thing I love - please know that no one should ever discourage you from making connections, looking more closely, digging deeper, and searching for a cohesive structure or themes, etc. Now more than ever we desperately need those skills. We desperately need people who do it for the love of the medium. Because I'm here to tell you, 9 months into unemployment, having experienced two years of unemployment before that, that the industry is getting so fucking hostile towards people who want to do the work.

[veryveryvomit]

I can't get over the misogyny of making it canon that Claudia claimed lestat threatened to rape her on the train, just to have that be a lie she told. They had a woman lie about a man sexually harassing her to ruin his image. It doesnt matter that her actions are justified in a watsonian reading. These are fictional characters who were designed to say and do these things. There is a vast history not only of women, but girls specifically being considered biologically predisposed to lie about rape, especially at the hands of their fathers. This show just cares so much about rape victims that they have to promote rape culture, eh?

[cptnflints]

i keep seeing people saying it’s not the real claudia and it was something else they summoned and that’s why she said all of those racist things. okay but why was this thing on lestat’s side? why was it racist?

and i just - is this where we’ve gotten to? racist ghosts?

like ‘you don’t understand you can’t criticise the writing because it wasn’t actually claudia it was actually a different racist ghost all along’

okay so the racism is still there just the perpetrator has changed to a ghost who has racist beef with louis? okay my bad the writing this season is great and choosing to include that isnt racist at all.