mango unit

i talk, about stuff, and things

[bloodstainedgauntlet]

real knights have Bad reactions to tremendous amounts of morphine

[mango-unit]

my zelda timeline theory

still dont know what to do about the wild era games but like. its objectively better than nintendos. this cannot be denied

[mango-unit]

ok so ive been playing twilight princess and it got me thinking about hyrule maps again

so prepare for a hyrule geography lesson

so some baseline geographic lore for zelda. the kingdom of hyrule is broken up into three provinces, each one with its own people and history: the lanayru province (named for the goddess nayru), the eldin province (named for the goddess din), and the faron province (named for the goddess farore).

the faron and eldin provinces are really easy to identify. the eldin province consists of the eldin mountain range (which includes death mountain), kakariko village (usually at the foot of the eldin range), and hyrule castle (on the western edge of the eldin province near kakariko village). the faron province is vaguely just “southern forests,” and can easily be pointed out in games that dont name the faron province - kokiri forest would be a part of the faron province.

the lanayru province is… a little harder to define.

it is associated with the goddess nayru, goddess of water. thus, the lanayru province is associated with the zora in several games.

however, in many games the zora are instead associated with the eldin region; the zora fountain, the origin of hyrules rivers, is often shown as a lake in the eldin mountain range. look at games like ocarina of time, a link to the past, etc. these depictions of the zora will usually have zoras domain behind a waterfall. i equate this waterfall to veil falls from minish cap, as it is named to be the source of the water flow in hyrule. all of these are east of hyrule castle, nestled among the mountains - in the eldin province.

games that associate the lanayru province with the zora include: twilight princess and breath of the wild.

thats it.

twilight princess still tries to keep the zora associated with the “northern source of water,” so they place the lanayru province further north than the eldin province. while this keeps the zora associated with that thematic element, it contradicts the zoras usual placement, being the southern edge of the eldin range. breath of the wild, meanwhile, is more consistent with its placement, being just south of the eldin province - however, in order to have the zoras lanayru province be distinguished from the eldin province, it is pushed so far south that the zora fountain is no longer the source of all water in hyrule.

so you have two separate placements for “zora lanayru,” being north of the eldin province and being south of the eldin province. both contradict the zoras historic association with the eldin mountain range.

the primary example of the lanayru province which isnt associated with the zora (the example i like best) is the lanayru province from skyward sword. it makes the southwest desert and associated regions the lanayru province, with the idea being that it was once wet and fertile before industrialization and unsustainable mining practices desertified the region.

the reason i am such a fan of this lanayru province is that it is a key aspect in several of my timeline theories. it is essential for understanding the timeline, so… im a fan of skyward swords lanayru province.

heres the thing: this means that the associated people for the lanayru province wouldnt be the zora at all, itd be the GERUDO. which is some goofy shit. but it also lets us understand the scope of the lanayru province more by looking at the gerudo territory.

the skyward sword lanayru desert is actually south of the ocarina of time gerudo desert; gerudo valley snakes up north to gerudo fortress, which opens into the desert. this means that, if the western desert is the lanayru province, the lanayru province stretches far from the north and south, making it a “skinny” province so to speak.

we dont see many games that show whats north of the eldin mountain range. the only games i know of that do are zelda 2 and twilight princess.

zelda 2 shows a northern region split between unscalable mountains and lower grassy fields covered in lakes and rivers. twilight princess shows a northern area consisting of zoras domain and the snowpeak mountain range. assume that snowpeak IS the mountain range in zelda 2. it has a… vaguely similar shape? also, the zelda 2 mountains are connected directly to a western range that spreads all the way from the north to the south, which would be equivalent to the range gerudo valley is nestled within in ocarina of time.

we could say that the lanayru region lies to the west of the gerudo mountain range, snaking up north before spreading east once its north of the eldin mountain range. the gerudo range would transition into the snowpeak range, which breaks up the landscape of zelda 2s greater hyrule. this would allow for the northern lanayru region we see in twilight princess. the eldin province, meanwhile, consists of central hyrule, the eldin mountain range, and the eastern coast we see in zelda 1, making it the widest province. and the faron province would just be… vaguely south, including the forests of hyrule and lake hylia.

and as for breath of the wild?

…no. i dont like breath of the wilds map. its lanayru province isnt real.

still doesnt explain why suddenly the zora (and the zora fountain) is in the northern lanayru province during twilight princess specifically. i think maybe its just an inconsistent map. but whats the fun in that?

[damdemiwitch]

Forget all those "archaeology" minecraft mods out there, I want one that adds Bronze Age barrows, Roman bathhouses, Iron Age ring ditches, etc.

And that's only the ones in Britain

I want cist burials, tombs, sarcophagi, etc.

[mango-unit]

hear me out

instead of apple bottom jeans

pickle top khakis.

im a genius

[mango-unit]

something about termina, lorule, demise, and the flames of the dark rites

ok so i was thinking about the sword of demise and the goddess sword

the goddess sword is the blade of the goddess hylia, and is also the sword spirit fi, who is capable of dowsing. this capability is what allows her to track zelda, the reincarnation of hylia.

the sword if demise is the blade of the demon king demise, and is also the sword spirit ghirahim, who has the capability to track zelda, the reincarnation of hylia. this implies some dowsing ability.

in its default form, the goddess sword bears little resemblance to the blade of demise. however, when tempered in the sacred flames of the golden goddesses, it becomes the master sword.

both blades (masyer sword and sword of demise) feature winged hilts, embedded gems, and depictions of the triforce engraved in the steel. the sword of demise is very clearly a demonic counterpart to the master sword - although it was fully forged first. also, its triforce is upside down.

considering that hylia and demise have parallel blades, it is a fair assumption that demise is the demonic parallel to hylia, and was granted the role of king by some greater entities (just as hylia was). i revisit this later once i have some more laid out, bear with me.

it is also a fair assumption that, as the blade of demise resembles the master sword more than the goddess blade, it was similarly tempered in demonic flames.

and i think ive got a pretty strong contender.

the sacred flames are three flames containing the power of the golden goddesses. the flames of the dark rites are three flames containing the power of the demons. in fact, there are theories that the flames of the dark rites are actually the origin of all demonic power, although i dont subscribe to it.

i believe that there are three dark demons, just as there are three golden goddesses. the sacred flames contain the power of the golden goddesses, and embody the virtues of power, wisdom, and courage. the flames of the dark rights contain the power of the dark demons, and embody the virtues of destruction, sorrow, and despair.

i believe that demise tempered his blade in the flames of the dark rites, just as link tempered hylias blade in the sacred flames. this is why the sword of demise resembles the master sword so closely.

these dark demons, the parallels to the golden goddesses, left demise in charge of their domain, just as the golden goddesses did to hylia.

and, just as the golden goddesses created the light realm (hyrule and its sister kingdoms), the dark demons created the dark realm (lorule and its sister kingdoms). this connects to the master sword and demise sword - the master sword features the triforce of light (embodying wisdom, courage, and power) while the demise sword features the triforce of dark (embodying sorrow, despair, and destruction).

the gods rule the light realm. the demons rule the dark realm.

the triforce of dark, bearing the virtues of destruction, sorrow, and despair, was the original triforce of lorule. it, due to it having corrupted virtues, pointed towards the ground. just as the golden goddesses left behind the triforce (to sustain the light realm) and the sacred flames, the dark demons left behind their triforce (to sustain the dark realm) and the flames of the dark rites. the golden goddesses placed hylia in charge of the light realm; the dark demons placed demise in charge of the dark realm.

due to the dark realm being founded upon more corrupted virtues, the people were more cruel and paranoid. because of this, the primary settlement of the kingdom isnt even named - its just a town for thieves to rest before they head back out to rob and crime. i believe that this led to the era of chaos, the war over the triforce, happening much earlier than it would have in the light realm, even without demises interference. i will revisit this.

as for the actual layout of the dark realm, just to cover some bases.

look at the eastern border of termina and the western border of lorule

to the southeast termina, there is swampy jungle marsh

to the southwest lorule, there is swampy jungle marsh

just north of that marsh in termina is a desert

just north of that marsh in lorule is a desert

to the north of both kingdoms is a mountain range said to be cursed into eternal winter

i believe that termina is directly to the west of lorule. the small bit of desert in lorule connects to the ikana desert of termina, and the curse placed upon the termina range extended to death mountain.

there is more in-game evidence for this, in both albw and majoras mask.

the ikana desert bleeds into lorulian territory, so it would stand to reason there would be some transferred iconography. that is exactly what we see. in the stone tower temple - in the ikana desert - we see depictions of the triforce, being licked by demons. the triforce is right-side-up, if youre talking about the light realm, but its upside down, if youre talking about the dark realm. this would imply some connection with the tower and inversion, since such a key symbol is inverted.

oh wouldnt you know the entire dungeon flips upside down.

so, if we say its an inverted dark triforce, it actually serves as a guide to those who travel through the dungeon: it is a dungeon of inversion. similarly, since its a symbol of the dark demons who created the world, it is a simultaneous depiction of defiance against the gods and worship of the dark demons.

when inverted (resembling the light triforce), a pathetic, naked figure with a forked tongue (a weak demon) is licking the triforce from above. this seems to imply that those who defy the dark demons (the gods, represented by the inverted dark triforce) are lesser than even the weakest of demons.

when oriented correctly (resembling the dark triforce), that same pathetic demon is now below the triforce, straining to lick its tip. this seems to depict how most demons, even those greater than the gods, are still lesser than the dark demons who created the world and struggle for just a small taste of their power. this is a flattering image for their creator deities.

so, now that weve discussed the connection to the lorulian dark triforce in majoras mask, we can now discuss the connection to terminas culture in a link between worlds - although this is even more blatant.

thieves town, on the western edge of the kingdom bordering termina, has a group of people who wear masks depicting the faces of monsters in an attempt to become those monsters themselves.

termina is littered with magical masks that transform its wearer into the monster it depicts.

this seems pretty direct. they picked up the culture or myths of those masks from termina and, seeking salvation from the pain of human life in the dark realm, developed a religion from the concept of transformative masks.

so there is a connection to the other kingdoms culture and icons in both games, and theyre both along the proposed common border with similar geographic features.

now as for the mountains: there is a misconception held by some that the curse on biggoron is what caused the winter on terminas mountain. that isnt the case. the curse on biggoron caused the blizzard, yes; but he was only there in termina in the first place to investigate the endless winter.

the mountains were cursed a significant time before majoras mask, allowing for the time it took for biggoron to learn of the curse and travel to termina; this curse affected death mountain in lorule.

now, i said i would revisit what i said about the era of chaos happening earlier in lorule.

i think that there are two things at play: the dark world, which is more aggressive, had the era of chaos earlier as a result. and the light world, which was attacked by demise, had the era of chaos greatly delayed as a result (the hylians were sent to the sky).

i believe that the lorulian sages destroyed the dark triforce just before the events of skyward sword. the world began to unravel, which prompted demise (the dark realms guardian deity, equivalent to hylia) to seek out a new one. this led him to the light realm - to the triforce left by the golden goddesses.

demise did pretty much the same thing hilda would eventually do, except through much more active bloodshed and conquering. he was fighting to save the world he was tasked with protecting, and he was sealed and killed as a result. his attack led to skyloft, which further delayed the light realm era of chaos (and the sealing of the triforce).

the dark realm was left without a guardian deity. this prompted the giants to offer the people of termina the oath to order. they would sleep in the furthest reaches of the kingdom, and their power would sustain the land - and if the people ever needed their intervention, they could play a song which would awaken them.

they became the new guardians of termina, akin to the role the dragons serve in the light realm. lorule, however, had no being to protect it from the decay caused by the absence of the triforce. so it, slowly, ever so slowly, began to rot.

its probably a good idea to wrap this up now, so im gonna recap everything discussed here really quickly.

- termina is directly west of lorule, both are in the dark world

- the lorule desert is a small section of the ikana desert

- the stone tower temple depicts an inverted lorulian triforce, hinting at its ability to flip

- the thieves town picked up the culture of wearing masks to transform into monsters from termina

- the dark world was created by three dark demons who embodied the virtues of destruction, sorrow, and despair; these virtues were embodied in the dark triforce, and in the flames of the dark rites, the demonic counterpart to the sacred flames

- demise is the dark realm equivalent to hylia, tasked with defending the world

- demise tempered his blade in the flames of the dark rites, as link tempered hylias blade in the sacred flames

- the more aggressive dark realm battles over the triforce earlier, and so destroyed it before the events if skyward sword

- this led to demise seeking out the triforce of the light realm, further delaying the era of chaos in the light realm by forcing the hylians to escape to the skies

- the absence of a guardian being led to the giants delivering the oath to order

[mango-unit]

i saw somebody post this in a chatroom i have no idea what the source is but i figured id spread the word

[mango-unit]

post number five

holy shit the zelda timeline is a mess.

ok so you got ocarina of time, right? ganondorf plots and schemes to break into the sacred realm, claiming the triforce and becoming the demon king ganon, before a hero rises up to claim the master sword and defeat him. he is thusly sealed away forever.

then he goes back in time and warns the royal fsmily before that ever happens, leading to ganondorfs execution. this causes a paradox, which creates a branch in the timeline: the ganon-is-sealed timeline, and the ganondorf-is-executed timeline.

wind waker takes place after ganon is sealed. once ganon inevitably returns (a la alttp), there is no hero to save them (because link went to the past) and they turn to the gods for help. this adds up neatly.

twilight princess takes place after ganondorf is executed. the royal family botches the execution, and he is sealed into the twilight realm, where his flesh literally re-manifests from the simmering rage and resentment the twili feel for those who live in the light realm. this adds up neatly.

ok, so far were doing pretty good. we have a clearly defined timeline branch after oot, which leads into majoras mask and then twilight princess very neatly, or wind waker and then phantom hourglass to spirit tracks very neatly, depending on which conclusion you go from. then put skyward sword, which is very clearly first, right at the beginning. this is a really solid chronology, right?

yeah. but what about, like… ALL OF THE 2D GAMES.

a link to the past, oracle of ages, oracle of seasons, links awakening, a link between worlds, triforce heroes, the minish cap, four swords, four swords adventures, the legend of zelda, and the adventure of link…

you can make a solid case for a handful of these on the current timeline i just outlined. but how are you supposed to make alttp work, and by extension oox, la, tloz, and taol?

in ocarina of time, the sacred realm is locked behind the master sword, which is locked behind the door of time, which is locked behind the spiritual stones, which are locked behind the different leaders of the various races of hyrule. they very clearly took a lot of precautions to make sure nobody would get into the sacred realm. they were very clearly worried about that threat.

as such, ganondorf needed to do some significant plotting in order to make his way into the sacred realm. the key to his plans was link, the descendant of hylias chosen hero, who is featured in skyward sword. only link would be able to draw the master sword, so even if ganondorf gathered the spiritual stones he wouldnt be able to enter the sacred realm. this is why he scares link into claiming the master sword by casting various curses on the people of hyrule using regular old dark magic.

this is the accepted tale for the sealing war.

now look at the sealing war in a link to the past…

ganondorf and his band of thieves come across the sacred realm completely by accident. zero scheming involved. absolutely no clever displays of his villainous cunning.

as they approach the sacred realm, the eyes of ganondorf and his bandit allies change colors, and they begin to attack eachother in a bloody, violent brawl. the only one left alive is ganondorf, who had killed his closest allies with his own hands. it is then that ganondorf claims the triforce with blood-soaked hands, becoming the demon king, ganon.

his rage flows across hyrule. the people suffer. they pray for a hero to come and save them - none does. the sages hole up in hyrule castle, placing a seal over the sacred realm - one that presumably did not previously exist - and locking ganon inside. the knights of hyrule laid down their lives to protect the sages; almost every last one of them fell in combat. the link in alttp is the descendent of those few courageous souls who lived.

does this sound, at all, like ocarina of time?

like…

in any shape, way, or form.

outside of the key connection of ganondorf entering the sacred realm, becoming ganon, attacking hyrule, and then being sealed in the sacred realm, it sounds like a completely different story. but its the same event, because its… you know… the creation of ganon.

in alttp, none of the precautions we see in oot were taken. ganondorf quite literally waltzes into the sacred realm and then kills all of his closest friends. and in alttp, there was no link present to save them, which is why the knights of hyrule almost completely died out protecting the sages. meanwhile, in oot, link is the essential key component of ganondorfs carefully laid out plan.

how does nintendo resolve this?

“uhhhh…. what if…….. what if link died? like, after claiming the master sword. after cementing himself as a hero by personally awakening the sages and solving everyones problems. what if he just died at the end of the game, and was completely forgotten by history for some reason we dont provide?”

i feel better already.

link dying would not branch the timeline. the other branch, which makes logical sense and has no contradictions, is done through time travel, not hypothetical what-if scenarios. therefore, it only makes sense that link dying is not any sort of canon conclusion that would branch the timeline.

so for now lets place alttp in the ether. it has an event thats equivalent to ocarina of time, but no precautions were taken for the sacred realm, and no link was present to defeat ganon.

after alttp, the triforce sends link to another kingdom which needs his help. twice. it turns out this was to prevent the revival of ganon, who he killed in alttp. however, he ultimately fails to prevent his revival - so instead he just kicks ganons undead ass. this details the events of the oracles games.

after this happens, he starts sailing home, but a nasty storm catches him and he crash lands on kohilint. im not spoiling this game because its fantastic, but lets just say for now that link goes through an ultimatum type experience that makes him rethink the virtue of this whole adventuring thing before finally sailing home. this details the events of links awakening.

i assume he settled down at this point. his descendent stops a plot by the royal family of an inverted kingdom to steal their triforce. this details the events of a link between worlds. (also. gramps is 100% the link from alttp. resigned from adventure, he instead helps train the new hero in an edu-taining way.)

then, the new link heads out to new kingdoms, much like his predecessor did. he winds up in hytopia, where he is enlisted as one of three heroes to break a curse on their princess. this details the events of triforce heroes.

hundreds of years pass. somehow, ganon returned. the zelda of this time breaks apart the triforce of wisdom and sends out impa to find a hero capable of collecting the pieces and using their power to defeat ganon, who wields the triforce of power. (the triforce of courage is locked away in a land distant to the kingdom, north of hyrule. it looks like the royal family got wise and decided to finally take some precautions to prevent somebody from easily claiming the full triforce.) this details the events of the legend of zelda.

the hylians move north. around 7 years later, greater hyrule is established. link notices a triangular mark on his hand and seeks the wisdom of impa, who recognizes it as the triforce of courage. she brings him to an ancient temple long lost to time and pulls out a manuscript written in unfamiliar symbols; the language was forgotten by history. because link bears the triforce, however, he can read it. it tells him where the triforce of courage is held, and it tells the legend of the first generation zelda, who was cursed into a timeless sleep (leading her guilt-ridden brother to decree all future daughters of the royal family would be named zelda). link sets out to find the triforce of courage and break the curse on zelda the first. this details the events of the adventure of link.

pretty straightforward, clear-cut story. except for the fact that i really dont think skyward swords zelda was cursed in an eternal sleep, neither do i think she had a brother.

it could have been a descendent of the true zelds the first, though. hyrule as a kingdom wasnt really established yet in skyward sword. maybe sonais daughter?

anyways, this story in a vacuum is pretty consistent. but, due to the problems with alttp, it doesnt really fit with the greater timeline. so the longest running story of sequels in the legend of zelda (excluding zelda 1 and 2) just doesnt have a satisfying placement. theres gotta be some other branch, right? some time before the events of ocarina of time, so that the imprisoning wars can truly be parallel events…

depending on your timeline theory, that leaves only minish cap and skyward sword. minish cap doesnt deal with time travel… which leaves skyward sword.

theres one moment in skyward sword that fits the bill pretty well. people refer to this moment as the skyward split. some believe it, some are skeptical, some arent even aware of it. i will propose my theory on the exact nature of the skyward split and let you decide.

in skyward sword, link wishes upon the triforce for the complete destruction of the imprisoned (demise). the mother goddess island detaches from skyloft and falls onto the sealed grounds, perfectly slotting in and just straight of killing that dude permanently. skyloft itself remains in the sky; there is no plateau where the mother goddess island fell, and in fact, its actually kind of set into the ground because of how perfectly it slotted into the spiral shape of the sealed grounds.

sorry. i like matpat as much as the next guy, but skyloft is definitively not the great plateau.

seeing this, ghirahim travels into the past and frees demise fully before his eventual death. he was transformed, in the ancient past, from the imprisoned back into his full humanoid demonic flame-headed self. link follows ghirahim and does battle with demise, defeating him and locking his soul in the master sword, where his very essence would decay into nothing in the presence of the holy light. basically demises fundamental soul was horribly crippled into the tiniest imaginable hateful little fragment of what it once was. and it was only getting tinier. exponentially weaker. no hope of escape until his soul is so worn thin it tears at the seams and he simply ceases to be. thats the idea, anyways.

this marks two fundamentally different, conclusively final endings for demise/the imprisoned. one where he was killed by the triforce as the imprisoned in the present, and one where he was trapped in the master sword only to be eternally decayed at an exponential rate. ironically, the imprisoned met his demise, while demise was imprisoned. but yeah, inevitably demise too will meet his demise.

after getting his ass handed to him, demise recites - or describes, depending on who you ask - a curse. it declares the endless cycle of incarnations of the hatred of the demon clan, who demise ruled. then he gets sealed in the sword and shuts up. its at this point that link and zelda leave the blade under the care of impa and return to the future. the future remains unchanged, however. the imprisoned was still crushed by the mother goddess statue island. so link and zelda returned to their original timeline.

some would say this implies a causal loop. that demise escaped the master sword, then impa sealed him in the sealed grounds, turning him back into the imprisoned for the events of skyward sword. however, demise would have been WAY too weak to ever escape the master sword - im talking barely conscious, let alone functionally powerful enough to overpower a blade containing the power of all three golden goddesses (the sacred flames that temper the goddess blade into the master sword). demise did not escape. therefore, timeline branch.

in one timeline, link and zelda are made aware of the curse that demise spoke of. in the other… well, theyre the only ones that demise spoke to, and that version of them doesnt exist in that timeline, so its safe to say nobodys aware of the curse.

in the timeline where they are aware of the curse, they take precautions. they lock the sacred realm behind the master sword, which they lock behind the door of time, which they lock behind the spiritual stones, which they lock behind the leaders of the various races of hyrule. thus, ganondorf must plot. he must allow link to claim the master sword.

in the timeline where they arent aware of the curse, they dont worry about the sacred realm all that much. they arent even sure where it is, and its not like theres an endless cycle of demonic hate hell bent on destroying everything the gods created or anything. nobody knows where the sacred realm is anyways, so they dont worry about those precautions. thus, ganondorf comes across the sacred realm completely by accident. as for why theres no link…

uh…. what if……… what if link died?

or what if link is just a nameless knight of hyrule, who was not made a legendary hero by saving zelda the first, forging the master sword, or defeating demise?

honestly i dont know why no link was present. whatever answer you like i guess. this timeline is such a mess theres no way to account for every single lore detail

[mango-unit]

uhhhhh the interlopers?

ok so this is kind of a crackpot theory here but just bear with me here it goes somewhere

it ties into my theory about the nature of the oocca, the zonai, and prehistoric hyrule (before skyward sword) so im gonna give a quick rundown of that just as a reminder of the key points

the golden goddesses create hyrule. din creates the land, nayru creates science and magic, and farore creates life. (the parella, the kikwi, the mogma, the gorons, and the oocca)

the golden goddesses create the triforce to sustain the land in their absence, place it under the care of the goddess hylia, and then peace out

the oocca found prehistoric hyrule. all races of the surface are united in peace.

technology develops, and the zonai evolve from the oocca.

eventually, the hylians evolve from the zonai; around this time, the oocca and the zonai build the city in the sky, the capital of prehistoric hyrule. they both go to the skies; the hylians remain on the surface.

some stuff about the lanayru province, the wind tribe, and the gerudo. ive hashed that out in two previous posts now so maybe ill refrain this time around. point is, around this time is when the lanayru province is desertified.

eventually demise attacks. hylia sends most hylians up to the sky with the triforce to keep it out of his reach, then goes to war. some hylians remain on the surface during the war, becoming the sheikah. hyrule as a kingdom falls, however - everyone who lived there is either in the skies or dying to monsters.

after (barely) successfully sealing away demise, hylia is drained of much of her power, and would be unable to defeat him again should he return. as such, she creates a twofold plan: she forges the goddess blade and imbues it with the spirit fi, sending it up to skyloft to choose a hero when the time comes, and she vows to reincarnate as a human who will be able to wish upon the triforce for the destruction of demise. (gods cannot use the triforce)

finally skyward sword happens. when the hylians descend to the surface, the zonai follow, helping them to re-establish hyrule; the oocca, however, stay in the skies.

so i kind of skipped over a few things that arent super relevant but the theory im about to present directly regards this timeline.

now lets talk about the interlopers. gonna drop a quote from lanayru

"You must know that it was the will of the goddesses that we lock away the forbidden power…

When all was chaos, the goddesses descended and gave order and life to the world. They granted power equally to all who dwelt in the light, and then returned to the heavens. The lands where the goddesses descended came to be known as the Sacred Realm. For ages, the people lived at ease, content in mind and body…

But soon, word of the Sacred Realm spread through Hyrule, and a great battle ensured…

Among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared. Wielding powerful sorcery, they tried to establish dominion over the Sacred Realm. It was then that the goddesses ordered us three light spirits to intervene. We sealed away the great magic those individuals had mastered.

You know this magic… It is the dark power you seek… the Fused Shadow. O hero chosen by the goddesses… Beware… Those who do not know the danger of wielding power will, before long, be ruled by it. Never forget that…

The dark power that you seek is within the sleeping Lakebed Temple in Lake Hylia…"

Lanayru, Twilight Princess

the light spirit lanayru explains here the story of the interlopers. "among those living in the light, interlopers who excelled at magic appeared." most assume the interlopers were hylian; the twili kind of look like distorted hylians. but lanayru never says hylians, it says "those living in the light."

so, just for a moment, dont assume the interlopers were exactly hylian. but dont assume they were exactly zonai, either, in spite of what im about to show you.

im gonna drop some images for you to check out as you wish.

fashion is shockingly similar. almost identical recurring patterns of thin bands of light. even the architecture itself is pretty much the same. not to mention the fact that the twili look like blue, physically deformed hylians (the deformations more than likely due to their time in the twilight realm)...

i believe theres a high chance that the interlopers, the ancestors of the twili, are the evolutionary mid-point between the zonai and the hylians (they are blue and gray). or, if not that, theyre hylians from prehistoric hyrule, who still share much of the zonai culture and design (the blue-gray skin could also be from the time spent in the twilight realm, much like the physical deformations).

when demise attacked, the hylians were sent into the sky and created their own kind of culture, much more akin to the medieval cultures of germanic tribes that is featured in arthurian myth (which zelda draws heavy inspiration from - the master sword being drawn by the one true hero is a clear parallel to excalibur being drawn by the one true king).

the interlopers didnt do that. they were sent into the twilight realm and held on to the culture they were separated from. most likely due to their intimate connection with magic - the zonai infrastructure is fundamental to their magical tech, as we see in totk. so the twili, keeping hold of their magically-oriented culture without trying to reinvent the wheel, would naturally have similar infrastructure.

so if theres a connection between the zonai and the interlopers (who eventually become the twili), and the zonai werent really present by the time of the hyrulian civil wars (which the interloper battle is widely considered to have been a part of), then whats the deal?

i believe the interloper event happened much earlier than previously thought.

much earlier.

as in, before skyward sword. in prehistoric hyrule.

im going to provide one more account of the creation of the world, just for some additional context:

"Before time began, before spirits and life existed…

Three golden goddesses descended upon the chaos that was Hyrule…

Din, the goddess of power…

Nayru, the goddess of wisdom…

Farore, the goddess of courage…

Din…

With her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth.

Nayru…

Poured her wisdom onto the earth and gave the spirit of law to the world.

Farore…

With her rich soul, produced all life forms who would uphold the law.

The three great goddesses, their labors completed, departed for the heavens.

And golden sacred triangles remained at the point where the goddesses left the world.

Since then, the sacred triangles have become the basis of our world’s providence.

And, the resulting place of the triangles has become the Sacred Realm."

Great Deku Tree, Ocarina of Time

the key takeaway here is the fact that the location where the triforce was created became the entryway to the sacred realm. i will be incorporating this into the theory to make it cleaner.

with all this in mind, let me adjust that timeline from earlier:

the golden goddesses create hyrule. din creates the land, nayru creates science and magic, and farore creates life. (the parella, the kikwi, the mogma, the gorons, and the oocca)

the golden goddesses create the triforce to sustain the land in their absence; the place where it is created becomes the entryway into the sacred realm, where the triforce is initially stored. the goddess hylia is tasked with watching over the world in their absence.

the oocca found prehistoric hyrule. all races of the surface are united in peace.

technology develops, and the zonai evolve from the oocca. as time passes, the interlopers evolve from the zonai; they are more hylian in shape, but keep the blue and gray skin.

eventually, the hylians evolve from the interlopers; around this time, the oocca and the zonai build the city in the sky, the capital of prehistoric hyrule. they both go to the skies; the hylians and the interlopers remain on the surface. the zonai and the oocca rule the kingdom, and the hylians are the favorite of the goddess hylia; the interlopers are widely considered irrelevant, and are treated as just that: interlopers.

some stuff about the lanayru province, the wind tribe, and the gerudo. ive hashed that out in two previous posts now so maybe ill refrain this time around. point is, around this time is when the lanayru province is desertified.

the interlopers begin setting a plan in motion. they develop a mastery over powerful magic, as detailed by lanayru, and attempt to establish dominion over the sacred realm. if the zonai were to be worshipped and the hylians were to be coddled, the interlopers were to be respected as the ultimate arbiters of divine power.

the golden goddesses take notice. the light spirits intervene under their direction. they chase the interlopers across hyrule into the desertified lanayru province, sealing them away in the twilight realm. they consider the matter dealt with.

worried about this close brush with the interlopers, the golden goddesses take the triforce out of the sacred realm and place it under the care of the goddess hylia. finally, they leave the world again, this time permanently.

eventually demise attacks. hylia sends most hylians up to the sky with the triforce to keep it out of his reach, then goes to war. some hylians remain on the surface during the war, becoming the sheikah. hyrule as a kingdom falls, however - everyone who lived there is either in the skies or dying to monsters.

after (barely) successfully sealing away demise, hylia is drained of much of her power, and would be unable to defeat him again should he return. as such, she creates a twofold plan: she forges the goddess blade and imbues it with the spirit fi, sending it up to skyloft to choose a hero when the time comes, and she vows to reincarnate as a human who will be able to wish upon the triforce for the destruction of demise. (gods cannot use the triforce)

finally skyward sword happens. when the hylians descend to the surface, the zonai follow, helping them to re-establish hyrule; the oocca, however, stay in the skies.

thats pretty much how it fits into the timeline. one thing i can see being a problem is how the interlopers lost their absolutely massive ears from the zonai, but theres a perfectly reasonable explanation for that. a quote from the alttp manual (literal translation from japanese):

これらの記録書を書き残したハイリア民族は、神の声を聞くことができる選ばれた民でした。

The Hylian people, who left behind these written records, were an elected (chosen) people able to hear the voices of gods.

それゆえ、高い耳を持ち、感覚に優れ、魔法を使いました。

For that reason they were in possession of tall ears, excelled senses, and the use of magic/sorcery.

the hylians (or the zonai, as thats who they inherited the trait from) developed their large ears in order to hear the voices of the goddesses. the interlopers were sealed in the twilight realm, far from the goddesses; as such, the need for such ears vanished. as the twilight altered their forms, the unnecessary trait was dropped.

and yeah, thats basically it. to be perfectly honest im not sure if im on to something here or if this is just another crackpot theory with no weight to it that are all over the internet

[mango-unit]

post number three will be kind of a two-for-one zelda theory post. theory one is the placement of minish cap on the timeline. theory two is the connection between the lanayru desert, the wind tribe, and the gerudo.

look at these maps

(relative to hyrule castle) forest with lost woods magic to the northwest. village to the west. big lake to the southeast. river leading from castle moat to big lake. desert to the southwest.

(relative to hyrule castle) forest with lost woods magic to the west. graveyard to the west. big lake to the southeast. river leading from castle moat to big lake. new river leading south, and southwest, into a forest. the further south you go in said forest the more dehydrted the grass looks.

(relative to central lake/moat) forest with lost woods magic to the southwest. graveyard to the west. small lake to the southeast. no river leading from central lake to small lake. river leading south.

i should probably get to the point now.

i believe that minish cap takes place between alttp and tloz. the lost woods began moving progressively further south into kakariko, so hyrule town was built in order to prevent people from being lost. the village was repurposed as the graveyard. by the time of tloz, the lost woods have moved fully south, and the graveyard is just a regular non-lost graveyard.

as for the rivers. the hylians dug a channel from the moat to the desert in an attempt to terraform it and add forests. this was largely successful; this is why the lost woods were able to move into the area, but it isnt fully complete, which is why the grass further south (around the wind tribe ruins) looks almost dead. there is more full desert off-screen; this is where the gerudo live, so i doubt the hylians would encroach on that land.

by the time of tloz, the southbound river takes over, and the river leading to lake hylia dries up. as a result lake hylia shrinks. then ganon shows up and destroys hyrule castle, turning the moat into a massive lake with fractured islands in the center.

i theorize that the reason the hero of men needed the picori blade is because somehow the master sword went missing or was destroyed. (i have a real crackpot theory on how that happened, roping in botw and totk, but thats a whole other beast to tackle. for now we can just chalk it up to it getting so lost in the woods it could never be recovered.) the picori blade was forged into the four sword, which was used to seal vaati and later ganon.

as for why link doesnt use the four sword in tloz… hes, like, 10 in that game. its very likely that he just didnt think of it. he just did exactly as impa asked of him: collect the pieces of the triforce of wisdom, and use its combined power to defeat ganon, permanently this time. no more half measures by sealing him away.

going back to the topic of the wind tribe. i mentioned them before in my first post, but i left things a little… unfinished, so ill present my whole theory on the wind tribe.

i believe the wind tribe are the hylians who lived in the lanayru province before skyward sword. first lets look at the technology:

the lanayru province has a clear red and blue theming, and most of their technology consists of levitating machines. as does mazaal, the levitating machine built by the wind tribe to protect their home.

this carries over to the wind tribe members themselves, who wear only red and blue.

and speaking of the actual people:

every member of the wind tribe have red hair. every member of the gerudo have red hair. since the lanayru desert in skyward sword has a bug called the gerudo dragonfly, its a given that the lanayru desert becomes the home of the gerudo.

the lanayru desert is also where link finds the gust bellows, which grants him control over wind.

now to fit all the pieces together.

in ancient times, the hylians in the lanayru province rapidly progressed sometime after the discovery of the timeshift stones. they also gained a powerful mastery over the wind itself, reflected in their technology and in their magic. their advancements came at a cost, though; the once lush region became a harsh desert. in order to escape the deadly environment they created, the lanayru hylians used their mastery over the wind to escape into the skies. while many went into the skies, becoming the wind tribe, many decided to stay on the surface, receding further into the desert and becoming the gerudo. eventually, during the time of minish cap, the reforestation efforts of the lanayru desert reach the wind ruins - potentially some of the same ruins that the link of skyward sword explores, albeit much more decayed.

so yeah theres my two for one theory post

[mango-unit]

my second post is about panda express

god damn i love panda express

[mango-unit]

post number one is going to be about the legend of zelda

ok so if youve played tears of the kingdom you know about the zonai. theyre an ancient, technologically advanced sky race, said to be the closest to the gods, who purportedly had a hand in hyrules founding. they look like this.

and if youve played twilight princess, you know about the oocca. theyre an ancient, technologically advanced sky race, said to be the closest to the gods, who purportedly had a hand in hyrules founding. they look like this.

much less cool looking. however, they still serve exactly the same purpose, despite being completely different races. thats a contradiction.

and if youve played skyward sword, you know that these both contradict the story of hyrules founding outlined there; the skyloftians, after demise is slain, descend to the surface and found hyrule. so… thats yet another sky race founding hyrule… except slyloftians are hylians. not birds, not goats.

i think i have a pretty decent explanation. one that accounts for everything without cherry picking facts or delegating established lore as legend.

i posit there was a prehistoric hyrule. after the golden goddesses created the world and all the races in it (gorons, parella, kikwi, mogma, oocca) and after they left the triforce under the stewardship of the goddess hylia, the oocca founded hyrule. all races of hyrule were united in peace under a common banner; civilization flourished.

eventually, the zonai evolve from the oocca. if that sounds impossible, just remember that apparently the hylians are descended from the oocca, which is even more impossible.

the zonai and the oocca lived together in this prehistoric hyrule. eventually, the hylians evolved from the zonai; around this time, the oocca and the zonai built the city in the sky, the capital of hyrule.

hylians elect to remain on the surface. they spread throughout the land of hyrule, and the march of their progress is unmatched; in fact, the lanayru hylians completely destroy their ecosystem as they developed their highly advanced technology. technology which is red-and-blue themed, which is reminiscent of mayan architecture (similar to the zonai and the wind tribe), and which controls the wind (the gust bellows and all of its related architecture).

the lanayru hylians, seeking refuge from the harsh environment they created, used their power over the wind to create their own city of the skies; they became the wind tribe from minish cap. the red and blue mayan theming carried over. they remained as their own group, separate from the other sky races, however. some lanayru hylians remained on the surface; these eventually became the gerudo, with their iconic red hair.

around this time, you have two sky societies: the wind tribe, living independently from everyone else, and the city in the sky, which was the capital of prehistoric hyrule and was home to the oocca and the zonai.

suddenly, demise attacked. you know the story. hylia sent the hylians to the sky with the triforce, using goddess magic rather than technology. those brave hylians which remained on the surface to aid in the war became the sheikah. a fierce and bitter war breaks out, concluding in the sealing of demise as the imprisoned. after the war was over, hylia was near death, so she vowed to reincarnate as a human who would be able to stop demise when he inevitably returned. she eventually reincarnates as the skyloftian, zelda.

generations later, the events of skyward sword play out. yadda yadda yadda link beats up demons blah blah blah the skyloftians descend to the surface. the zonai see this as an opportunity to re-establish hyrule; with demise defeated, the mortal threat is pretty much gone. the oocca, however, have grown comfortable in the city in the sky. the zonai descend to the surface, while their ancestors remain in the skies. cue the totk prestory; king rauru has arrived.

queen sonia is probably zeldas daughter or grand daughter

at this point, there are two sky societies: the wind tribe above the lanayru province, and the oocca in the city in the sky. a new hyrule kingdom is founded; the historic hyrule kingdom, in which all zelda games take place.

now youre probably wondering why the wind tribe ruins arent in a desert in minish cap. my answer is that minish cap takes place much later than its official placement on the timeline, and that that portion of the desert was terraformed into the southwestern forests we see in minish cap (and zelda 1). it has its logic behind it, which i believe is sound. however, thats a theory for another time, because its 12:28 am and im really tired.