Screw everyone who wants you to give up, this world is worth saving

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@momsspaghetti39
Screw everyone who wants you to give up, this world is worth saving
two months since I watched the finale and i'm still stuck on the absolute disrespect to a companion to owls
S2 Crowley and Aziraphale: wow, when we do a miracle together, even a tiny one, it becomes insanely powerful, enough to bring 25 people back from the dead
S3 Crowley and Aziraphale: damn, there really is no way around this, we've got to choose one of God's shitty options because we totally don't have the power to fix this ourselves... 🫥
I refuse to believe that the theme of the book was "God is unambiguously evil and needs to be destroyed" i think it was so much more that God is mysterious and literally ineffable - incapable of being actually understood.
Again and again it was said that humans are the ones who are truly evil, truly good, truly both. Humans have imagination. Humans defy the roles set down for them. and over and over again, we see how humans bring complexity and freedom to the supernatural beings that they come into contact with. Humans are not perfect, they are not going to be perfect, but the humans who already exist don't deserve to be wiped out in the hope what whatever comes after will be in some vague way better. And all the while, God is there in the background, wryly amused at what is going on, and giving nothing away of their actual perspective.
Having God show up and actually express opinions was something that could never happen in the book canon, where God was the card dealer in the dark, who is maybe playing chess while you play poker.
God's opinions and thoughts should not be capable of being put into words and written down in a script. the whole idea of God in the book falls apart once you do that.
instead of God, the people that the book (so, Pratchett) really rails against are the fundamentalist Christians who are looking forward to the apocalypse because they think it will wipe all that is bad and leave them in paradise. Or in other words, the characters in the book who most share Finale!Crowley's perspective. Aziraphale cutting them down to size on the horror of what they are fantasizing about is one of the best and most directly political bits of the book, so of course Gaiman had to cut it and take the side of the televangelist.
the thing is, if you are a spiritual person, you probably do believe in a God who is hard to understand, whose reasoning is not given to you, who is not pupeteering you (because that's not what Christianity believes and it's also not what was going on in the book), but rather who is giving you the chance to make your own choices.
Is this anything?
just you wait, dude. just you wait
this was going to be a reply to a post about good omens fandom discourse but it got too long
maybe a hot take but i think a lot of the disagreement is coming from the fact that liking the finale is apparently supposed to be the default and can be freely untagged while actually being the more unpopular opinion and disliking the finale or rightfully/respectfully criticising its flaws (because even if you liked it, you cant deny it has them) is seen as unnecessary negativity and hate. it sucks but i think the fandom needs more separation than it already has. i have all asa and anthony related tags blocked but i still see posts about them all the time and stuff like the ao3 decision to lump them in with the aziracrow tags makes it harder for people who were upset by the finale (which, again, by every survey ive seen, is the majority of the fandom) to avoid things that would make them more upset.
(might be pushing it here for a post i dont plan on tagging anti go3 but) a lot of people have pointed out that the finale feels like a completely different show; you have a different genera, tone and theme, a different canon, a different universe and different characters. maybe it should just be its own fandom
idk man, i'm actually kind of pissed off. maybe one of the reasons people don't want you using the ineffable husbands tag on asa/anthony content is that canonically
... and also because some people would like to continue to engage with this fandom and fanworks without being jumpscared by the couple that only exists because Aziraphale and Crowley were evaporated/annihilated/willingly chose to die - which is by definition, suicide - on screen without any content or trigger warnings. and that was a really horrifying moment to a lot of people. regardless of your interpretation of what happened after in the finale, people were in fact traumatized by it.
i have not browsed ao3 for new fics since may 13th because i don't want to have to see any of that. i'm just going to continue to only browse for fics written before may 13/only read newer fics that are recommended to me until i can find my way out of this cycle of grief. but i think a lot of people would really appreciate it if this fandom could be courteous, responsible, and empathetic in their tagging.
at this point i would happily accept A and C being human, IF they could just keep their memories.
I'll never understand how a fan of the book/show can be ok with asanthony, knowing that "asa" has NO memory of crowley saving his books in 1941? knowing that "anthony" has NO memory of being impressed with aziraphale when he lied to Gabriel for Job and Sitis? every flashback that is so precious to us as a fandom...they don't remember any of it.
for anyone struggling to comprehend/understand the conclusion of Good Omens, i recommend reading (or re-reading) the OG book. i finished a really in-depth analysis of the book and it really helped me understand the point of why the show ended the way it did. i’m gonna leave a page or two of my annotations for your reading pleasure.
There are a few problems with your annotations.
The first page you show where you note that "this is 100% an angel who would agree to go back up to heaven..." is Aziraphale before his character development. While he had been parroting heaven's propaganda before, after his conversation with the Metatron, Aziraphale is completely disillusioned with them.
He doesn't keep trying to convince the Metatron to stop the war, he doesn't claim heaven is certain to triumph over hell. At the final moment, he is ready to face Satan to protect the humans at the airbase, because he knows heaven, and by extension himself, have gone to far in their interference with humanity, and he thinks he owes it to them to protect them one final time.
The angel we're left with at the end of the book is not an angel who would choose to go back to heaven without a good reason. By the end of the book Aziraphale has learned where his loyalties truly lie, with humanity and with Crowley.
For the second picture, I'm confused as to how you used 2 quotes that plainly state that humans have free will to support the idea that humans need to be given "real" free will. The two pages in the picture are actually both Aziraphale explaining why angels and demons don't have free will, unlike humans. You could take this one way and say that maybe the the story should go the way of giving angels and demons free will and exposing them to humanity so they'll no longer want to mess things up on earth as a way to ensure humanity's future. But, given the quote on the second page is about how humans' free will has rubbed off on Crowley, I'd say that's not even true. Like I mentioned above, Azirahale at this stage in the book is still aligned with heaven, and simply repeats their doctrines when it comes to difficult conversations about morality. What he's saying is clearly what heaven believes (demons inherently bad, angels inherently good), and is proven wrong throughout the rest of the book, starting only a paragraph down. Humans already have free will; angels and demons already have free will. Those aren't the problems that need to be solved.
The other thing you talk about on those pages is how humans need a lack of divine intervention to be free, and while I do agree that one of the book's big conclusions is that heaven and hell's interference limits the freedom of humans, that's not what they're talking about here. In that section, they're specifically talking about human interference on each other's freedoms. Getting rid of heaven and hell won't magically make human life easy and simple, or "start everyone off equal." Getting rid of heaven and hell will stop people from being judged for eternity outside of the context of their circumstances, which is what Crowley was talking about in that passage.
Last thing on that page that bothers me is the note about getting to live without their past trauma. I've made other posts about how it's just distasteful to wish all of their trauma away, so I won't get fully into it here, but trauma is a part of a person, that they can heal from, but that can't ever be removed. People are the sum of their experiences; a hypothetical version of that person without those experiences, even trauma, is simply a different person.
Last page, the analogy the Them draw between the Them/the Johnsonites and heaven/hell specifically concludes with them deciding they don't want either side to go away, even though Tadfield as a whole, or earth in this scenario, might want that
They're coming from the perspective of "heaven" and "hell." They like having an enemy to endlessly fight. Adam uses this perspective to try and reason with Beelzebub and the Metatron to stop the war, but not to get rid of their sides completely.
The note you made saying the war would just go on forever is better supported in this line. But this idea isn't really being used to suggest that heaven and hell should be dismantled. I agree that that would be a good way to take the story and secure humanity's future (though I completely disagree that the original 8 billion humans needed to be sacrificed for a new universe in order for that to happen), but the Them's argument isn't really evidence that this is what must happen. The fantasy world would be a jolly sight less interesting without cassette tapes that turn into Queen and prophets who call out cheating men centuries in the future. And things like that don't exist in the miracle-less universe with "real" free will.
Overall the idea that heaven and hell need to stop interfering with humanity is fully supported within the book, but nothing else about the finale is. The book makes it clear over and over again that humans have free will, as do Aziraphale and Crowley. There's no fundamental missing piece in the universe that makes it so the people can never be free and can only hope for death. Simply stopping heaven and hell's influence on humans would solve the only major moral problem the book proposes. The universe didn't need to be replaced, angels and demons didn't need to be destroyed.
The book is even opposed to a lot of the things the finale presents. One person making decisions for all of humanity first of all; Adam specifically passed up on ruling the world because he thought humans should understand the consequences of their own actions and make their own decisions
Compare this to the attitude Adam had when his antichrist powers were clouding his judgement at the height of the book's conflict:
This is the same flawed approach the finale takes. They could have brought the original universe back and stopped heaven and hell "messing around," but instead they left that one destroyed so they could start again. The new universe without all the problems of the old one isn't the same universe, it's the new mothers and fathers who don't make you go to bed or tidy your room.
Not to prattle on or anything, but it does strike me as odd that the more traditionally, “feminine,” lead in Good Omens is the one who is stripped of a great deal of agency towards the end, and constantly reminded of the fact that his choice to try and save humanity by changing what he perceived to be the most powerful force in the universe from the inside was foolish and naive. Naive? Perhaps, but not without reason. I will never stop being angry about the fact that they make show-Aziraphale “stupid,” towards the end (s2 and 3). He’s hardly a character at all - moreso a vessel for Crowley’s angst. What a waste of a perfectly interesting character - two perfectly interesting characters, Flanderised almost beyond recognition. Soft does not mean stupid, or helpless, or weak. Soft just means… soft.
I think part of the sadness and disorientation for me is realizing that a not-insignificant number of my fellow fans were not "in it" for the same reasons I was. This is fine, there is no value judgement here, it is just unexpected. What I loved about Good Omens, what made it a compelling and well-told story for me, was encapsulated in the book and adapted, on the whole, successfully in S1; muddled in S2; and entirely missing from S3.
Again, this is not a value judgement, no one is required to like what I like or dislike what I dislike. It is just a bit odd to me (this is baby's first fandom, after all) and is taking some getting used to.
The other sad bit is, of course, less the outright insults, which are rare and easy to block, but the more frequent, passive-aggressive statements of the "gosh, it's a shame that finale haters are too stupid/literal/negative/uninformed about trauma to see the beauty" ilk. Again, I block because it's my responsibility to curate my own space. It's just a bummer.
it starts, as it will end, with a garden🌳
aziraphale and crowley didn’t need to become human because they were already human in all the ways that mattered
aziraphale and crowley didn’t need to get married because they were already married in all the ways that mattered
In the book Angel demons are just TITLES. "No angel/demon" would mean to get rid of those jobs and set them free. Their wings aren't even different.
The show made sure angels and demons are distinct species, so erasing them from existence is like deleting entire races?
I'm not saying this is their intention, but this is what it feels like when I think deeper about how different the concept of angels/demons are between the show and book.
They deserved a better writer.
I have a genuine question for people who liked the ending of the good omens finale. I wont be snarky in the comments or anything and i encourage everyone else to be civil too. Im just confused and havent seen any answers to this and want to hear someone elses reasoning.
First: what evidence was there that humans didnt have free will in the original universe,
Second: How did you interpret the following in a way that they arent evidence that humans did have free will:
- Adam choosing not to end the world and to not be the antichrist
- Anathema burning the second book of prophecies because she didnt want to know/have to follow a set path
- god/satan making a bet about what Job would do, meaning they didnt know what he would do
- Aziraphale and Crowley couldnt miracle Nina and Maggie to be in love, despite their best efforts
and then the same thing but for angels and demons:
- Aziraphale giving away his sword and lying to god about it
- Aziraphale and Crowley saving Jobs kids and lying to heaven/hell about it
- Aziraphale and Crowley opposing armageddon
- Gabriel and opposing armageddon
- Gabriel and Beelzebub running away together
Again, i dont mean this as a gotcha or anything, i just dont understand and havent seen anyone address this topic when talking about the finale in a positive light