hey, do you think Undertale Yellow Clover and Undertale Chara would actually get along? In what way and how would they get along, what would it take it to be in a relationship (of any kind that's not hatred incarnate)i am going through the Tumblr tag and asking the same questions to people I see there.
would canon clover and chara actually get along: an overanalysis
oh anons you have no idea the lengths i’m willing to go to procrastinate on the clock
okay so let’s place some ground rules. i’ll be sticking to both game canons + some official material here and there. i have not played utry nor deltarune, so if there’s any extra info in any of those i will not be considering it. there are wildly different ways to interpret chara, so i've decided to stick to what we see they actually say (aka no flavortext :[ ). as for clover, i'll take into account dialogue choice who are not contrary to one another (ex. "do you like X? yes/no") and actually expand a little bit on them ("is gunhat your name? it's clover/yes")
so to start with the basics: who tf are actually clover and chara? for this part i’ll try to keep it to the info the games literally give us. this will short compared to the rest lol (+ some screenshots of uty's dialogues are from here!)
what do we know about clover?
they jumped down on a mission, searching for the 5 missing kids. against popular belief, although they tend to stick to the same straight face, we can't say they are overly serious, as we've seen they are both capable of being silly + emote. they are resourceful and resilient and seem to be able to handle whatever it's thrown at them, as they don't seem faced by the whole mess that goes down in the true pacifist route.
(they are also a real one)
what does the game say about chara?
((now this is a bit messier as everything we have is a secondhand account from asriel and flowey + the dialogue at the end of the genocide route
chara hated humanity and they climbed the mountain for "not a good reason". they were the one in control when arriving to the village and tried to hurt the humans. they weren´t the "best person". they seem at first sight very amiable but can and will use their "scary face". they are a good negotiator (manipulator?) and tend to talk very formally. their favorite name is 9 and they want the player's control over frisk's soul.
we are still in a very surface level profiling, this is where i'll start to make my own interpretations on who they both may be as people.
one of the first points i want to address is about clover's views on their mission. when you interact with the missing poster, they are very cut and precise. "Justice is needed" is not passing thought, but a command to oneself. this is not an amiable approach to the underground. what does justice mean to clover in this case? this is not about finding the souls or rescueing them, clover did not have that information until reaching asgore. did they think from the start killing was the way to go? or how did they pretend to "serve justice"? an open callout? guiltripping the asgore into submission?
nevertheless, this may be a very unpopular opinion, but this whole thing means clover is not that much headstrong. when asked about it from ceroba in the steamworks, there's not a strong reaction to it, seems like their answer was just normal. but more telling it's the reveal from flowey in the neutral route, in which clover decides to stay with toriel and didn't seem to attempt to continue their journey. where did all their resolve go? if you ask me, i'd say it's a matter of not only empathy, but also principles. for clover to be the justice soul that means, well, they must be just and impartial and hear the other side of the story before making a judgement. hearing and seeing what the imprisonment meant to monsterkind is what ultimately leads them to give up their soul, but also, to willingly and completely stop their mission at the very start bc of toriel. it's clear they can adapt to new info, but also once they have done their assessment they will go to great lengths to see it till the end (pacifist ending, genocide run)
about their personal background, clover seems very closed and detached from it, shutting down ceroba's line of questioning and downright dismissing it when they remember it. we can't know for sure how bad it was, but we know it was unpleasant, as it seems that's the main reason why they're so handy-mandy. this small tidbit will come back later.
on chara. i believe a key point is their desire from control. chara was the one in charge of the plan, in charge of asriel's shared body, and they want to be in charge of frisk's soul. even their decision to climb mt ebbott may had come from a desire to have some sort of control over themselves. this control doesn't come from googoogaagaa i'm a weirdo, but the fact who is in control is the strongest, and who is the strongest shall not be hurt
let's tie the regular knots and reach the most popular conclusion: chara hated humanity, held the belief of "it's kill or be killed", was sorta driven to climb mt ebbott and has a deep desire to be in control. we are never explicitly told or hinted at about their backstory, but we can assume wherever they came from scarred them deeply.
this desire for control and adding their own determination soul hints us they're task oriented, someone who is not afraid to adapt, bite and overcome for the sake of making it happen. we've seen they can laugh off/pretend everything is okay to hide stuff. we can see, from the red text, they are no nonsense, very straight to the point and efficient person. they have no place for fuzzy feelings or sentimentality. and that ties to my next point: we are never explicitly told chara's motivations came from liberating monsterkind. it sure must have been a huge part of it, as hearing the monster's side could had added one more big fat reason for hating humanity, but asriel rlly emphasizes on chara's own feelings that affected their course of actions. so i'll take the leap and say what really moves chara is their own personal worldview. until the deep end of genocide they still hold to their beliefs what was done was deserved.
(quick disclaimer yea yea there's a good point to be made that we as player actually influence chara's behaviour to the extreme in the genocide run yadda yadda but as i said, sticking to what the game literally says)
so after all of this: would chara and clover actually get along?
short answer: kinda, at an arm's length and never going past small talk. clover's willingness to back off and chara's clear attitude could permit them to be in okay-ish terms. maybe they'd make an occasional good team for some sort of contest or schoolwork. they could appreciate e/o's diligence but given both chara and clover’s tight lips they would nawt talk about their personal opinions or feelings like, ever.
long answer: it's complicated. and that depends how deep you are willing to believe they could get to know e/o and how that could affect their relationship
we need to establish a scenario. i'll be picking chara right when they are about to execute their plan and clover in the middle of a pacifist/neutral run (aka around the time they meet starlo, i can see clover losing a pacifist run by killing axis in self-defense). so no blackened hatred for monsterkind here, clover is just chill like that. let’s put them in a fictional blank world with no other timeline or world influences
on a surface level, chara would have seen, recognized and categorized clover as non-threatening. this must had been their first positive human interaction since forever, so they appeared friendly to not raise any alerts from clover and assess them, just as they did with the player. chara would believe they got the upper hand here. and you know fucking what, i think clover would fall for it. if they had no idea flowey was faking their everything then i don't see why they wouldn't believe chara. as for clover, they just don't have any reason to not trust chara. again, they would be very okay-alright-whatever with them, kinda similar to ceroba/flowey. it's a very distant but polite relationship bc i doubt chara would be actively plotting anything against them. and that's the end of it, i doubt they'd be interested in one another beyond the novelty of seeing another human to even try and strike a deep convo with one another.
but that's boring. time for the next question: what would it take for chara and clover to get along?
so let's make pretend, somehow someway they share with each other their plans (for chara, to die and help monsterkind; for clover, find the missing kids and most likely die in the process)
let's start with what they both share: the completely normal and rational impulse to sacrifice themselves. i think they could both admire and agree with the other's actions and willingness to see their plans through but would find their executions stupid and dumb (pot, kettle). there are too many loose ends they detect in e/o's scenarios.
for chara, clover's reasoning would be dumb as they just can't comprehend why clover would pretty much send themselves to their death with no actual personal connection to those kids. also they would not take very well whatever clover was planning in the first place about “delivering justice” but since it never happened they could let it slide. possibly. not promising anything tho. (they are not really happy about it)
now here is when stuff would get real messy. from clover’s perspective chara would be very conflicting. chara has a good, major reason to plan to kill those humans but do those humans deserve it? are humanity’s sins enough to warrant some individuals pay for them? is killing a few humans worth it for the sake of all monsterkind? trolley problem for the justice soul ohhh boi. and what happens if they learned about chara’s backstory?
another stop: i truly believe this is it. this is how much a “would they get along” answer could be stretched into. they would regard each other as “interesting/conflicting” and these adjectives would keep them in e/o's orbits. it could go very, very bad as chara is quick to snap and clover could be understanding at first but i don't think their patience runs deep. however, there's still a level of respect for e/o ways that runs through their relationship that's keeping at bay the worst of it.
from this point onwards, we would have to get into a long sequence of actions to justify how their relationship could develop. thankfully this is not a serious fic or a deep #serious analysis i'll just keep going and get right into the meat of the matter.
for the sake of this analysis let'ssss say somehow they find out about each other’s troubled past even though they are not okay with any of it. this is when stuff will go sour. by clover trying to understand and grasp chara’s own feelings towards humanity to puzzle out their decisions, chara would feel they have lost their upperhand bc clover is pitying them. that will not fly so well oops? i believe this sort of confrontation could potentially risk the delicate balance they had before or downright break it. again, i'm pretty sure clover could deal with some bs, but they're not a saint and eventually would bite back. and once they make their mind they bite hard, so that's gotta hurt.
it would spiral from there, and finally. finally we reach my favorite part from this entire analysis.
yeah, flowey, CLOCK THEM!!!!!
but what i truly want to get from this is that both clover and chara are hurting and ignoring it and are in denial of it and and it all boils into a emptiness inside of them that, in their case, turned them into empty vessels who repurposed themselves for greater ends. they have become victims of their own silence and dismissing of their personhood. they believe themselves to be disposable and have a need to justify their existence through any other means.
and that's what i think could get them back up this sort of deep end. they need this. they need to crack they need to scream they need to cry they need to get it all out bc no matter how much they try to hide it under it is all still there. and no other than the two of them, who are so similar in some aspects and so different in others, could understand how deep it goes and how it hurts and how to hit the nerve and pull it all out
would this make them get along? hell no, at least not at the start. they'd resent each other for ages. but it is a necessary evil for one another, to begrudgingly find a kindred spirit. it'd take some time, a long time probably, for them to be able to meet eye to eye, but it'd only be then they could actually talk for real with someone who gets it, for the first time for who knows how long. and that's when they could finally work towards actually getting along, this time for real.
TLDR: imo chara and clover could easily get along, but it'd be a very tense and distant, not real, relationship. if they could work it out and try to fully know e/o they would hate what they would find, but it would be what they need.
should i pin this. should i send this to a massive emails list. should i print it and paste everywhere i can reach. should i pay so it becomes an annoying ad you can't escape. should i summon a demon so it appears in your dreams every night. should i eat it
some of asriel dialogue is so insane. why are you shitalking your dead sibling to a complete stranger. have you never heard of not airing your dirty laundry. you are in front of their grave show some respect for the dead !!!!
actually insane hilarious potential for asriel to just. not realize he should not be saying any of all that. like he just says out of pocket shit and not realize that's not okay. airing family beef like talking about the weather. did you know my father had to backstab his siblings for the throne type shit
asriel, to a whole audience: oh yeah and chara actually agrees with me. they told me they can't believe he is smart enough to even come up with such a dumb argument! we were just talking about how most of their friends surely just hang out with him for his roblox premium account
some of asriel dialogue is so insane. why are you shitalking your dead sibling to a complete stranger. have you never heard of not airing your dirty laundry. you are in front of their grave show some respect for the dead !!!!
actually insane hilarious potential for asriel to just. not realize he should not be saying any of all that. like he just says out of pocket shit and not realize that's not okay. airing family beef like talking about the weather. did you know my father had to backstab his siblings for the throne type shit
some of asriel dialogue is so insane. why are you shitalking your dead sibling to a complete stranger. have you never heard of not airing your dirty laundry. you are in front of their grave show some respect for the dead !!!!
What are your thoughts on the Flowey age discourse? That debate about whether Flowey can be considered mentally an adult or not because of the numerous resets he's done.
short answer: i think it’s an idea that has its own merits and lets you explore even further some of flowey psyche, and i bet there is fancontent out there that does it quite well, but it’s not my cup of tea
long answer bc i wanted to ramble about this and flowey, as ever.
there are several reasons why this idea doesn’t completely click for me.
first of all, flowey’s overall demeanor doesn’t scream adult. yeah you could argue about a trauma response and regression and yadda yadda yadda but that’s another convo. they act most of the time like a doesn’t-know-any-better bully or an entitled preteen. but i’m not saying they are a kid or a teen either
so that connects to my next point. approaching monsterkind with an idea of age very humanlike (and a western one at that) is… boring. we know they recognize there’s a time in which you are kid and a time in which you are an adult, but we have no idea what the actual lifespan of a monster is and where do they draw this child/adult line. do they live 20, 80, 300 years? we know gerson lived through the war, who knows how long ago that was, and asgore and toriel are pretty much immortals, but are they the norm or the exception? or is it a matter of the type of monster?
(small curve. flowey is literally a plant. plants can go from surviving a season, which would make flowey an actual fossil (time travel or not), to living entire millennia which could possibly place flowey somewhere just okay. would flowey potentially surpass our capitalist society or drop dead any second now? thoughts. thoughts)
coming back to my first point, flowey was stuck in a closed sandbox world up to the point he disregarded monsters were actually real and alive and treated them and the underground as a game. for me, to think of them as an adult there needs to be some sort of maturity and life experiences that would shape them somehow, which you can’t do if you are not aware of the consequences of your actions, none of which he exhibited until undertale’s ending. there is a clear evolution from the person he tried to be when he woke up and the person we meet, but the evolution is just letting the real him shine through. i can’t see a reason for me to believe he grew up at all during that time.
AND FINALLY on a more personal note: i prefer stories with kids. i always resonated more with them and now i believe there’s a certain level of simplicity in them that elevates some messages. now, i would never describe flowey as “simple”, but sometimes it really helps when fans remember this (could be? is?) a kid too
What do you think of Justdance (Clover x Integrity UTY)?
first of all that shipname is so criminally perfect whoever came up with it absolutely cooked
now onto the ship ——I LOVE IT SOOOO MUCH it adds so much texture to clover's character and it makes uty 10 times sadder and AAAAAAAA one my favorite hcs is that integrity's disappearance is the main trigger for clover to start their whole crusade and why their lvls jump out after axis' confession. it makes everything a little more personal and rawer and orz
it's such a constant, stable hc of mine clover had a deep bond with integrity before falling down i actually get confused when something reminds me there isn't actual confirmation they knew e/o in canon lol wdym they are not connected at all i've been daydreaming their relationship for the last few months tf
you know it’d be rlly funny if clover and integrity weren’t even that much into cowboys or ballet, it was just their costumes for halloween ala over the garden wall
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