Both @jedi-order-apologist and @chancecraz are bringing up a lot of good pointsāand I want to make it clear that I reallyĀ enjoyed all of them, I think a lot of us are probably closer to being on the same page on some of this than it might sound like, as well as weāre not trying to overwrite anyone elseās views, but that this is a discussion where, eh, if we wind up agreeing to disagree, then thatās fine, weāve all come from places of good faith and give interesting viewpoints put forth.Ā (Ie, I LOVE EVERYONE IN THIS BAR, YOU GUYS HAVE BEEN SO SWEET.)
I tend to agree with @ladytodd about Anakin never really gave the Jedi way a fair shot, that itās backed up by George Lucas saying that Anakin didnāt wantĀ to accept their teachings emotionally:
āThe fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he canāt hold onto things, which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isnāt willing to accept emotionally.āĀ (Attack of the ClonesĀ commentary)
In addition to that, we see Obi-Wan reaching out to Anakin more than once to talk, like in the Age of RepublicĀ comics (both the Obi-Wan and Anakin ones), in Attack of the Clones, in Revenge of the Sith, in The Clone WarsĀ (like in the Rush Clovis arc and the Crystal Crisis arc, off the top of my head), and that usually itās Anakin who pushes him away or lashes out, because he doesnāt wantĀ to.
And, ultimately, Anakin knew that he could walk away at any time, he even very nearly did at least once.Ā The Jedi are open about people leavingāthey have the Lost Twenty busts out in the open in the Archives, in Dooku: Jedi LostĀ a youngling asks about them and Yoda makes a point to stop and talk about them, how they just wanted different things, some of them go on to be leaders or teachers, some of them just go live quiet lives.Ā We saw in the DookuĀ issue of Age of the RepublicĀ that Jakzin still thinks highly of Dooku after he left and indicated that most thought he was forming his own Force teachings school and were fine with it, Attack of the ClonesĀ had them defending Dooku until it was clear that he was behind the Separatists.Ā There was no stigma over leaving, so it seems entirely reasonable to think that the Jedi were trusting Anakin to make that choice for himselfāif their path didnāt work for him, he knew he didnāt have to stay.Ā They trusted him to make that decision for himself, whatever advice they gave.Ā (Obi-Wan advises him to stay, because he sees Anakin as needing the structure, but he also makes it clear that itās absolutely Anakinās choice and it will be respected.)
Which makes me think that, even if the Jedi hadĀ āreformedā their ways to change for Anakin, it wouldnāt actually have made a difference.Ā Look at his relationship with Padmeāshe poured every ounce of love into him that she had and he stillĀ couldnāt trust that it was enough, he stillĀ couldnāt escape his fears that she would leave him, either through betrayal or death.Ā The Jedi suddenly saying, sure, you can get married wouldnāt have changed anything re: Anakin, imo.
We donāt actually see much of Anakinās training, we donāt really know why the Jedi changed their mindsāwas it because Obi-Wan was going to leave? The Council seemed to have decided to vote for training AnakinĀ beforeĀ Obi-Wan said any such thing?Ā My feeling is that they were like, shit, the Sith areĀ back, we absolutely have to protect this kid and not let him fall into their hands, even if we think thereās a muchĀ higher chance than usual that he wonāt want to accept our waysāso itās hard to say how much the Jedi ways did or didnāt work for Anakin and what they knew of that.
We donāt see much of a young Anakin interacting with others, but we doĀ know that he at least attended classes with other younglings and that, when Obi-Wan had a mission, he saidĀ āYou can continue your training with Master Yoda.ā and that Yoda talked to Obi-Wan about Anakin because Obi-Wanās not sure about a lot of stuff, helping nudge Obi-Wan back on track.Ā Also, when theyāre at odds in Choose Your Destiny: An Obi-Wan & Anakin Adventure, Mace and Yoda and Bant all also intervene to help get them back on track, which indicates to me that other Jedi were at least monitoring things and helping out when needed.
As for the political stuff, chance has a great point about the Jedi vs the Jedi OrderĀ being somewhat separate things, even as I thinkĀ itās complicated, because what the goal of the Order is is at heart of who the Jedi are, which is why there absolutely isĀ a difference between the two, but that theyāre not wholly divorcable, either.Ā Also, I think context creates massive amounts of pressure that the Jedi were underālike, we all agree that being soldiers in a war really sucked for them, they werenāt meant for it, they were being pushed to their limits (Obi-Wan himself says this in TCW, that theyāre allĀ being pushed to/past their limits in this war).Ā So, itās easy to say that they shouldnāt have fought in the war, that they shouldnāt have been anyĀ kind of political entity within the Republic.
But how could they not?Ā When the Separatists started the war, when they started invading planets and oppressing populations, should the Jedi have just said no?Ā Should they have let those people die?Ā Should they have left the clones alone, who had no real experience yet, even with their training on Kamino (which presumably wouldnāt have yet had the same training programs set up that we see in TCW, because the Jedi werenāt aware of them until AOTC, and Jango basically says he has nothing to do with the clones), as the clones point out to Depa, that they neededĀ a chain of command, because otherwise people were going to get killed?Ā Hera Syndulla was one of the people that the Jedi and clones saved on Ryloth, because the Jedi and the clones worked together.
How could the Jedi separate themselves from being a political entity within the Republic, when that would almost assuredly mean that they couldnāt go around helping anyone?Ā The Guardians of the Whills existed similarly to the Jedi, as far as we know, they seemed to help people on Jedha, but look how small their reach was.Ā They seemed to mostly keep to themselves, nobody really knew who they were because they werenāt out there, helping people.Ā The Jedi were.Ā (And ultimately it didnāt save the Guardians from the Empire wiping out their Temples and their home anyway.)
And the Jedi were allowed to do that precisely because they were a political entity within the Republic.Ā Queenās ShadowĀ does a really good illustration of how going around the Senate is a bad idea.Ā The Clone WarsĀ shows a really good illustration of why Mandalore spurning the Republic and the Separatists was a bad idea.Ā Youāre cut off if you donāt work with the system, you canāt help anyone who really needs your help within that system of government, if you donāt work with them.Ā And there was no way they would be able to do it on their own, they wouldnāt have money for ships, fuel, food, their home, etc., unless they wanted to charge people money for it and the people who needed their help the most were the ones who couldnāt have paid them.
Being cut off is probably the most charitable interpretationāI mean, look at what happened with Mandalore when it looked like Death Watch was a threat:Ā The Republic was going to forcibly invade the planet.Ā Look at what happened when it looked like the neutral Scipio and the Banking Clans were going to be under control of the Separatists:Ā The Republic forcibly invaded.
Thereās no wayĀ the Republic or the Separatists were going to let a bunch of super powered space monks just sit there and do nothing, when they could have turned any number of tides in the war.Ā The Jedi were getting drawn into the politics of the war, just by the very nature of their abilities, one way or the other, whether they were affiliated with the Republic government or not.
So, I actually do agree that being a political entity within the Republic is what reallyĀ strangled the Jedi to death, that Order 66 was able to happen because of all the politics stuff, but I also think that I donāt know a better choice, not with the Jedi still being able to help the people who needed their help.Ā And this isnāt even getting into how they absolutely needed to have oversight in the eyes of the galaxy because a trained Force user could do so much damage.
Ultimately, Iām less,Ā āThe Jedi were perfect and this was absolutely the right path!ā and moreĀ āI genuinely donāt see any other path that they could possibly have taken re: being a political entity within the Republic that would have still allowed to them to help the people they wanted to help.āĀ That the bigger context and consequences of the other paths are really important for why the Jedi didnāt try those options, why they didnāt just leave their position in the Republic.
One of my real criticisms is thatādespite that I get whyĀ they didnāt, because we see them shot down for it again and again and againāI do think the Jedi could have pushed harder for reform within the system.Ā I do think they were trying, we see Mace trying to save the Zillo Beast and he gets overriden.Ā Yoda tries to ask for files on Sifo-Dyas and Palpatine overrides him and Yodaās like,Ā āThat went exactly the same as always, sigh.āĀ Mace tries to object to Palpatine talking with Anakin, but has no grounds to stand on and is overriden.Ā They try to object to sending Anakin and Ahsoka to Tatooine in TCW and are overriden.Ā Mace tries to ask for leniency for Boba and the Judiciary overrides him.Ā Shaak Ti practically breaks her back trying to get Tup and Fives to be taken to the Jedi Temple and is overriden at nearly every turn.
They donāt have nearlyĀ the political clout that we wish they did and I do think they did try for internal reform, but I think they should have leaned harder into politics even more than they were already, because if youāre part of a system, you have a responsibility to make it better and hold people accountable.Ā That includes the Jedi!Ā But also I think they were still doing more than the general public was doing and Iām not going to rake them over the coals when they were at least genuinely trying, if imperfectly.Ā If the general public had actually done somethingĀ about all of this shit that affected them, then the galaxy wouldnāt have been in the state it was, either.
Yoda has a line inĀ āThe Lost Oneā when theyāre trying to unravel the big mystery of what happened with Sifo-Dyas and the clone army:
āAre you sure we are taking the right path?ā
āHmm, the right path, no. The only path, yes.ā
Thatās my feelings on the Jediāthe right path?Ā Not really.Ā The only path, given all the other context?Ā Yes.