Hideo Kojima x Mamoru Oshi interview (August 8, 1996)
The following interview was translated from the Policenauts Kōshiki Guide published in 1996 by NTT. You can read the original at the following link.
Source: https://archive.org/details/policenauts-official-guide-konami-official-giudes/page/118/mode/2up
At first I thought it was just a detective game from the packaging art
Kojima: How was the game?
Oshii: The truth is that I’ve just finished it last night. I thought I would be in trouble if I didn’t finish the game before meeting you.
Kojima: Were there any parts that gave you trouble?
Oshii: I failed the bomb disposing sequence around 15 times. Cutting the wires gave me trouble. I also didn’t know that you could auto-aim either until the final shooting sequence. Since it was impossible to win due to so many enemies, I was wondering if there was a way to make it easier. (laughs) I also had a bit of stress when I was unable to shoot the final bad guy.
Kojima: Yeah, Ed ends up killing him for you. A part of me wanted to make Policenauts into a sort of buddy cop game, since I was part of the generation that was raised on shows like Starsky & Hutch. As a result, I was always aware of American culture whenever I turned on the TV. Therefore, I wanted to make something like that. Is there any particular game that do you like?
Oshii: I used to like adventure games and played them a lot, so I already knew about Snatcher. Policenauts, which I was able to play for this occasion, has a very clear world building. It felt a bit nostalgic, like the PC games that I used to play.
Kojima: What about buddy cop movies?
Oshii: When you speak of buddy cop movies to someone of my age, really old stuff comes up. It ends up becoming the world of something like The French Connection.
Kojima: That’s another movie that I like. However, I believe Lethal Weapon is the movie most appropriate for the younger generation to understand what buddy cop movies are. Because that’s what it really is (laughs).
Oshii: Having an astronaut as a protagonist is unusual. Maybe not so much around the time when space exploration started, which around back when I was in grade school, but nowadays astronauts aren’t really that looked up to anymore.
Kojima: Astronauts were really admired in my generation. Even the astronauts that appeared in movies like Planet of the Apes knew things that weren’t usually known. It created the impression that you had to be smart to become an astronaut.
Oshii: The buddy cop genre seems to be really suitable for an adventure game, but it wouldn’t had occurred to me to have the story set it in a space colony.
Kojima: A cylinder-type colony doesn’t have much of a reality to it, does it? Originally I was thinking of setting the game in a torus-type colony or even in a sphere-like colony, but visually for today’s generation [a cylinder-type] is what they recognize as a space colony from a glance. When you think about that, all you see nowadays are Gundam-type space colonies.
Oshii: The cylinder-type colonies that appear in the Gundam franchise are really nostalgic for people like me. The whole thing has that kind of atmosphere. It’s really calming.
Kojima: It seems to be a common trend in games to have the player character replaced during the middle of the story. I usually can’t emphasize with that. But in the case of Policenauts it was very difficult to tell such a subjective story until the end.
Oshii: That’s certainly true for video games. When it comes to simultaneous proceedings, all you can do is watch when you’re shown something that isn’t from the hero’s perspective.
Kojima: Moreover, the original concept was to have no distinction between the movie parts and the gameplay visuals, but due to scheduling issues [it wasn’t feasible].
Oshii: The pre-rendered movies are treated as a single cluster, with no interactivity.
Kojima: That’s right. The pre-rendered movies are just loaded as clusters. As for the text portion, they’re cut into units of sentences while the program checks for flags. There was actually supposed to be a U.S. version made, but a translation wasn’t feasible. We talked about it on three occasions and each time the idea was ultimately abandoned.
Oshii: If the translated sentence is out of alignment, then it ruins the timing of the video. But if you end up forcibly changing the sentence, then it completely changes the meaning of the story. I think it must’ve been pretty difficult to have scenes where there are text messages, but no voice acting.
Kojima: What do you think about the voice actors?
Oshii: Since there were many actors that I recognized, it was easy to get used to them. Hideyuki Tanaka, who plays Jonathan Ingram, actually appeared in one of my movies, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard his voice.
Kojima: With Policenauts I wanted the actors to act as if they were dubbing an American movie, so I picked out people who had experience with movies. When we did the recordings we started with the NEC PC-9821 version. Since there were no video files for that version, we had them act out while we explained their scenes showing cuts of the visuals. The voice recording took quite a while, with the recording for the PC-9821 version in particular lasting six days.
Oshii: That’s quite a while. Did you do the casting yourself?
Kojima: That’s right. On top of that, I wanted to record the dramatic parts with 4 or 5 actors at the same time but such a thing seems to be rarely done in the game industry. If you record the actors one by one in isolation then there won’t be as much tension.
Kojima: What are you plannign to do after Ghost in the Shell?
Oshii: There are many things I want to do, but I want to take a break from animation for a while, since I’m really tired. I really want to do live-action, since it’s fun. But then the problem would be that I wouldn’t be able to eat when I want to.
The moment we decided on making a Saturn version, I was thinking of utilizing the Virtua Gun
Oshii: I still find the old text adventure games to be interesting. Maybe it’s because they stimulate my imagination. But when it comes to games released in this age, I think players expect them to have pictures, sounds and even moving images. Moreover, many recent RPGs and such are filled with mini-games in addition to pursuing a story.
Kojima: In case of Policenauts, if the player gets involved in a minigame, there’s a possibility that they might end up forgetting the plot. That’s why a recap mode was added.
Oshii: It’s pretty interesting to play with the Virtua Gun, whether it’s a main game or a mini-game.
Kojima: I was already thinking of adding Virtua Gun support the moment we decided on a Saturn version. We didn’t have a light gun peripheral until now. However, there are some difficulties with using the gun. It’s not really suitable in places like the moon surface, where it is difficult to keep your aim in one place. It has its pros and its cons.
Oshii: I actually fired real guns on my spare time, but I find the Virtua Gun difficult to use. I can fire a real gun all day long, but I get tired holding a light gun for two hours.
Kojima: I also underwent actual gun training during development. The shooting booth I went to was quite scary. There were no security guards or cameras, and you had to buy your own guns and ammo before bringing them to the booth. I once read a novel about a female FBI agent who hated gun training because of the smell it left on her and I never understood that until I started my own gun training. I realized what it was like when the smell of gunpowder tainted my clothes.
Oshii: Ah, that’s the smoke of the gunpowder. It turns your hands black. I wonder if there will ever be something as interesting as video games again. It’s the ultimate toy for boys. I don’t think there’s ever been such an interesting toy to such an extent. When it comes to video games, what is stimulating about them is the fact it takes you to a completely different world. Or should I say, it’s a completely naked product.
What does it mean to be interesting? Something we must think about once again.
Oshii: I think we’re talking whether it is important for games to have interactivity. Starting from the fact that these two things are different, I wonder if it’s better to go back to something that is simple and fun. I don’t know much about such matters, since I don’t play that many games.
Kojima: I don’t play games that much at home either. I shouldn’t had said that loudly. (laughs)
Oshii: I don’t think there are that many people who play games and couldn’t live without them. A game is a medium where you not only receive information, but send it as well while feeling the engine on the side. With that said, I believe the amount of people who want to be entertained up to that point are very few.
Kojima: I don’t think people who play games were originally common. Game development is also an interactive world. It’s a workflow, and at the same time it isn’t. If anything in the story, events or music becomes twists, then the whole thing will become uninteresting, so you need to excavate the raw elements and then reshape them. The finished product will differ depending how much you adjust it.
Oshii: Normally I work only with movies, but in the end ,whether it’s a game or a movie, it can only harvest either, its worldview or the drama. When it comes to harvesting the worldview, having a kind of promise would better for the story. But when it comes to harvesting the drama, the worldview must be adjusted to a certain degree before it can hold up. I think Policenauts harvested the worldview. If you harvest both, you will certainly fail.
Kojima: I probably picked the worldview without thinking about it. if anything, you are often told about the story because it is an adventure game. When it comes to making a game, it is completely different from writing a novel. We make the contents first, then we add the mini-games and such afterward, and if there is a good scene i come up with, we fit it into the time frame.
Oshii: In the old days there was many easy ways out such as lack of technology, primitive specs or minimal storage space, but now there’s no such excuses. When I started thinking about what makes video games interesting, I was wondering if there was a way to make things like they were in the old days one more time. I think such problems will emerge once 3D and polygons started to emerge. In other words, I think that will be the true place for people who make games.
Interview conducted on August 8, 1996 inside Konami Headquarters in Ebisu.
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