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i don't understand why people think hans is so irredeemable? like elsa was 3 seconds away from killing multiple people (and was stopped by hans btw) and she was pardoned very easily, but a little attempted regicide makes you squeamish?
the firstlast dance
Tangentially related to the previous post, I really never fucked with Joyce and Hopper as a romantic pairing. S1-3 it read more like "we had the hots for each other in high school and never realised, if our lives been drastically different we might have been together but that ship has sailed and we're both cool with that" and I really liked it that way
But instead in S4, we get this thing where I end up feeling like Joyce is a little reward for Hopper completing his assigned character development. It almost feels like they thought Joyce wouldn't go to the lengths she went to in S4 for someone who was "just a friend", but like Murray did, and also tell that to Steve and Robin. I love the idea that Joyce just rides that hard for the people in her life that she would invade Russia to save her friend. Not to mention the fact that even if Hopper is just a friend, he's the friend that walked with her into a living nightmare world to get her son back, yeah of course she'll fucking do that for Hopper whether they're romantic or not
Even as I write this I'm realising the feeling is only compounded in S5 by the fact that Joyce doesn't fucking do anything, like now that she's got a man all of her four full seasons worth of heroism is just deferred to him
Theyāre married
Eleven and Hopper relationship in season 5 was done DIRTY, omg the RAGE I had in that sceneā ļø they literally minimized their relationship to kill Eleven, Eleven saying that she is not Sarah? When she took off the hair rubber from Sarah oh girl I exploited. Implying that Hopper only saw Eleven as a replacement for his daughter? WTF!? omg it's so obvious that this bullshit was written by men. Eleven would have never said that, and she was not a replacement for Sarah, I would buy it if it was like that in the second season when they are knowing each other and Hopper is still healing BUT IN SEASON 5???? After all the development that they had throughout 5 seasons? After Hopper literally adopts her? HELL NO, that dialogue was fucking bullshit. They watered every relationship that Eleven had with every character so people would be more "prepared" for her dead, but they destroyed and killed the relationship that she had with Hopper. One of the most beautiful relationships in the entire series destroyed with one dialogue BRAVO DUFFERS!
Also, Hopper telling her "when you have children" excuse me she is 16, she has never had the desire of being a mother especially after her trauma with his mother, she has lived just 4 years of her life, she doesn't even know what clothes she likes and you are telling me that they are pulling this crap of dialogue? Omg when I heard that dialogue it was so obviously written by a man. Hopper would have never said that, when he said that I saw the face of the Duffers instead of Hopper. That threw me off so much. I understand that Hopper was trying to transmit the feeling of joy that he felt when she had her and Sarah, but I'm sorry that dialogue was not okay in that moment, it doesn't feel natural with the moment.
I wish I could have more fun in this body
The kiss we all deserved!
(Made with Grok)
lord have mercy
I was watching the documentary yesterday and originally Joyce was going to go with El, Hopper, Kali and Murray into the lab but it was scrapped. I think this would have been so much better than what we got tbh because El really needed a positive mother figure there with her, someone who could recognize the pain and trauma both her and Kali have gone through and make them believe in a better life. She'll inspire Hopper to have a change of heart over the way he has been treating Kali.
Have her be in the same room as Hopper when Vecna puts him in the trance, have Joyce also in a trance where she is haunted by Will's disappearance and her neglect over Jonathan and then she is shown the moment where Hopper planned to kill himself like when Hopper saw what the girls were planning. This will push Joyce to confront Hopper over his suicidal tendencies, a conversation that was absolutely crucial for them to have but just didn't happen. If Joyce had been at the lab, she would have confronted both of them over their suicidal plans and show them that there is more to live for. Give Eleven and Kali someone that believes in them because as Joyce says when someone believes in them, they can do great things. Giving them enough motivation to live, to see this plan through and stop Vecna, to give them worth that the bad men in their lives have denied from them. Joyce would have given them a future to believe in and we were truly robbed of seeing that. It would have pushed Eleven to live, to allow Hopper to accept Kali as part of this family and for her to keep living, it gives Joyce and Hopper's relationship the necessary angst it needs and it would have added more tension to those scenes.
I think it would have been great if we even got a hint at the history between Joyce, Hopper and Henry in from their days in high school where they slowly begin to remember and piece together what happened after those memories were stolen from them. Have Joyce address the play that she was working on and tie everything back to those events, to offer clarity on the person Henry was before the mind flayer had fully corrupted him and made him into who he was.
As much as I love the Joyce and Will pairing, it was getting tiresome by the finale and Joyce was paired up with Will to the point of sheer negligence of Jonathan. Joyce's arc at the beginning of this season was her overprotectiveness over Will and learning to shed some of that and allow him to do more things on his own. From the moment he unlocks his powers and becomes a sorcerer, Joyce begins to realize there's a hidden strength in her boy that she didn't even realize he had and starts to believe in him, that he has what it takes to fight back against the hive mind and take advantage of that connection he has to Vecna.
We could have seen Joyce and Mike bond over their love for Will and wanting to protect him and in a way have Joyce entrust that care onto Mike to protect Will when they go up to the abyss. It would have done more to emphasize more on Mike and Will's relationship and have Joyce take that weight off her shoulders and allow Will to go into this battle on his own. As he said after his coming out, he wasn't afraid anymore and this would have taken such a bigger meaning if it was Mike who is the one to stay with Will rather than Joyce. As much as I loved the coming out scene with the whole party, it could have been so much more intimate by having Will come out to both Joyce and Mike, two people who went to the ends of the earth to protect Will in the same way he did for them
Joyce was the key to resolving the emotional conflicts at the lab and it would have made sense for her to have those conversations with Hopper and El that were very much needed after the near death experiences both of them faced. Maybe actually go for it and have Hopper actually shoot El for real in his trance and have him and Joyce both resuscitate her like they did with Will in S1. It would have been a heartbreaking parallel that strengthened their relationship. It would have added more stakes to the finale and showed the lengths both her and Hopper would go to keep her alive.
When El goes to the abyss to fight Vecna, have Joyce go with her and that moment with the axe can still happen. It would make sense for Joyce to step up and join Eleven in the conflict in her last fight. Hopper and Kali would stay behind to handle the military and work out their own issues.
But overall, this is the arc that I wish Joyce went on. I felt Winona Ryder was incredibly sidelined this season and not given much to do, even in the finale. Having her in the lab would have left more of an emotional impact because not only would Hopper need to be confronted by his own suicidal tendencies but also give El and Kali more of a reason to live after all of the trauma they've faced. I fear Joyce would have been more sympathetic to the situation and allow her to still remain paired with Hopper and El while choosing to let Will go on his own. It would have been such a crucial progression in Joyce's character arc and would have given her more of an emotional weight to carry in the last episode than being Will's emotional support mum. But that's just my opinion.
As much as I adore the Jopper proposal, there is one detail that bugs me (maybe two if you count that they didnāt kiss, but him kissing her on the head was so intimate and sweet so itās ok)
He says:ā¦.āwho loves you very muchā
And we love that, right?
In the German dub he says :āā¦der dich über alles liebtā which translates to ā⦠who loves you more than anythingā
MORE THAN ANYTHING š
I just wish they did sth similar in the original version. What do you guys think?
- joyce byers, will you spend the rest of your life with a tired, grumpy, stubborn old man, who loves you very much? - yes. i will.
Apparently, I canāt think of anything else atm. Quick oil sketch in the middle of the night to calm my nerves. (Might turn into a fully fledged painting later, weāll seeā¦)
Can we PLEASE talk about the fact that Hopper just straight up LIED to Joyce TWICE about his āsuicideāmission?? In ep 1 he told her heās nuts but not that nuts when talking about facing Vecna⦠and then in ep 7 he had the chance to come clean to her about what happened between him and El in the upside down (basically her finding out about his āback up planā) and he didnāt tell Joyce AGAIN.
I COULD F**KING SCREAM
I get his motives. He wants to protect the women he loves and he doesnāt want Joyce or El to worry⦠and he said he wanted to clear things between him and El when the world isnāt at the edge of the apocalypse anymore, ā¦ā¦ BUT WHAT THE HELL?!
Was everything that happened in Russia for nothing?? Doesnāt he trust at least Joyce to be able to handle his emotions ?? (Because clearly he has some unresolved trauma)
Itās just so frustrating because Jopper donāt feel like a team, not really.
I NEED. And I mean NEEED, a scene where Joyce finds out and confronts him. Smack some sense into him or something, i donāt know.
They(or Hopper!) better get their shit together and have that date at Enzos (before Rovickie mind you, please and thank you, itās been teased long enough) or Iām gonna riot.
Last thought for the day ...
I really wanted to see Joyce find out about Hop's suicide mission. We were robbed of a scene with Hop, Joyce, and El all together. & They played up the tension between El & Hop only for us to get like two lines between them?! That was frustrating fr.
My one real complaint about ST this season is the cast is too big. Cut back on the new characters. Holly/Derek are giving "we want to do a spin off" vibes. Karen & Mr. Clarke? Just -- WHY?!
There's way too much to cover in the finale/40 minute epilogue. I don't see how they can do it, but I'm willing to be pleasantly surprised & I'm choosing to trust that the Duffers will land the plane.