Elia and her children did not randomly fall into Tywin and his cronies' lap for them to be slaughtered.
Rhaegar ran with Lyanna ➡ Lyanna's brother went to Rhaegar's father demanding Rhaegar die for taking his betrothed sister, Rhaegar was not there ➡ Mad King arrested Brandon and asked his father to come to the capital, and brought post partum Elia and her two children to the capital to answer for Rhaegar's whoring, Rhaegar and Lyanna were still nowhere to be found ➡ Lord Rickard came to KL, and insted of doing justice, Aerys The Aptly Named Mad King executed both son and father with fire and strangulation, then ordered Jon Arryn to murder his wards who are Lyanna's surving eldest brother and her betrothed, Rhaegar and Lyanna were still incognito ➡ Lord Arryn rose in rebellions against this injustice by the iron throne ➡ war raged for over a year while Rhaegar honeymooned hidden away in a love shack with his mistress in his wife's homeland, the entire time Elia and her kids were held hostage by Aerys ➡ Aerys sent Ser Gerold Hightower to find his useless son and bring him back ➡ leaving three kingsguard (including the Lord commander and the sword of the morning) with his side piece Rhaegar finally went to his father ➡ Rhaegar saw Elia and his children were hostages to his racist madman father and did... NOTHING ➡ Rhaegar took command of royalist army, 10,000 of which were Dornishmen who had been forced to fight for House Targaryen because Aerys held Elia hostage and her husband did nothing ➡ at the Trident Elia lost her uncle and Rhaegar died in the only battle of his life ➡ Tywin got news of Rhaegar's death and decided to now side with the rebels ➡ Tywin's army sacked King's Landing, his man Gregor r*ped and murdered Elia and slaughtered her baby, his other man Amory stabbed her toddler over 50 times to death, they were able to do this easily because Rhaegar did not leave a single kingsguard or loyal personal guard to protect Elia and his children, the Martell family and Dorne have still not gotten any semblance of justice.
This is book canon.
It started with Rhaegar and Lyanna.
It ended with thousands dead and r*ped, including Elia and her children.
Rhaelya stans always complain, “Why don’t people blame Tywin and Robert? Why do people hate Rhaegar more than Tywin or Robert?Why are you people always going after Rhaegar and Lyanna?” And I’m just sitting here wondering, are their tiny little brains filled with big, big confusion? Can’t quite figure it out?
First of all—who says people don’t blame Robert,Tywin and their dogs?Did you miss the celebration when they died? Even the dogs passing by stop to spit before moving on, that’s how rotten it was.The crimes of Tywin, Robert, the Mountain, and Amory Lorch are already nailed down, locked onto the pillar of shame, no escaping it.Have you ever seen anyone say, “Don’t blame Tywin, he loved his wife so much”? Or “Don’t blame Robert, look how tragically he died”? Has anyone said that? And if they did, do you really think the internet wouldn’t tear their comment section apart?And meanwhile, take a look at what Rhaelya fans are doing.
Rhaelya’s stans,they never rest,there’s no angle they won’t dissect, no excuse too far-fetched.From the Doom of Valyria to Aegon’s prophetic dream, from generational trauma to gendered oppression.They’ll ransack the lore like it’s a toolbox, pulling out any theme that might shield their ship from criticism. All of those, just excuses to justify how ruthlessly they trampled over everyone else. Silver Prince and she-wolf,indeed, forever spotless, those bootlickers are always one step ahead with the polish, scrubbing away every trace of blood and blame.Rhaelya stans bend over backwards to defend them, but let’s be real, not one of them would want a ruler like Rhaegar running their own country. They’d never actually want to be the people of Westeros during Rhaegar and Lyanna’s time.
And why do people hate them more than Tywin and Robert?Well, the naked evil of the wicked earns them nothing but the naked disgust of others.Those who wear virtue as a mask often draw twice the scorn when the mask slips.That's my answer.
You think only the ones dripping with blood and bodies deserve to be hated?Someone have to be covered in blood, personally swinging the sword, to count as a villain?What about the ones in silk and smiles, whose choices ruin lives just as thoroughly? Debts have debtors, and every injustice has a culprit, how can the true instigator simply vanish into the background like an eel through fingers?As long as all the fire’s aimed at Tywin and Robert, Rhaegar and Lyanna get to walk away clean? Is that how it works now? The internet won’t stop at spitting on Tywin and Robert’s graves, don’t worry, Rhaegar’s won’t be spared either. Don’t hide behind “but they were in love,” “Lyanna was 15 years old,” or “aren’t arranged marriages bad?” none of that covers up the wreckage they left behind. The truth always leaks through. We’ve got enough energy to go around.
Related to my previous question regarding Jaime, if he did fight Lorch and Clegane at the same time, regardless of how no vassal of Tywin's would do something like that, could Jaime beat them?
If it was anyone but Gregor Clegane, I'd say yes. Amory Lorch is a thug and doesn't seem to be a particularly talented one. But Gregor Clegane's raw physical prowess does mean that Jaime would have to fight differently which puts the issue into question. Jaime, particularly at that point in time, is a sword virtuoso, but in cramped quarters with Clegane's sheer physicality, I can't say a definite 'yes' the way I could in other times.
Why do you think Vargo Hoat and Ser Amory Lorch hated each other so much? Amory seems like the kind of guy the Bloody Mummers would typically recruit?
There's a couple of reasons.
The Bloody Mummers are sellswords fighting explicitly for whoever will pay them best whereas Amory Lorch can at least pretend that he's fighting for the honor and glory of his house as well as that of his liege lord
The Bloody Mummers are foreigners
The Bloody Mummers are made up of lower-class criminals and outcasts
So yeah, basically, a combination of classism, xenophobia, and hypocrisy.
The riders reined up before the gates. "You in the holdfast!" shouted a knight in a tall helm with a spiked crest. "Open, in the name of the king!"
A Clash of Kings - Chapter 14 - Arya
As I get farther into this book it gets a little tough to pick images. It's not that there suddenly stops being great material, it's just now I have to watch out for redundancy. Take the latest Arya chapter, we've been watching her trudge through the chaos of the Riverlands for three chapters now. It's true it far worse now, but I can't really show this in my snapshot format. Because of this, I jumped straight to Amory Lorch laying siege on the holdfast Yoren chose to stay the night in.
On a side note, this is yet another image that looked better flipped.
A Song of Mischief and Shit-Stirring: Tell me what you want.
If the Martell-Sands were seeking justice for the offenses that were committed against their family, I’d sympathize with their cause. That’s not what they’re doing.
If they wanted to punish Tywin Lannister for what he did to their family members, the red cloaks on the bodies would be enough. Oberyn Martell would not be set on hearing someone announce that Tywin gave the orders. He would not be hijacking Tyrion’s trial by combat for Elia’s Revenge Theater. If they wanted justice for what Tywin and his goons did, then Oberyn would’ve simply killed the Enormity That Rides and gone home to his family. They’d be satisfied that Clegane was dead. They’d be satisfied that Amory Lorch was dead. They’d be satisfied that Tywin Lannister was dead. They would not be setting the realm up for another war.
If they wanted to punish Tywin Lannister for what he did to their family members, the red cloaks on the bodies would be evidence enough because Oberyn wouldn’t be trying to sell a motive that wasn’t applicable. The facts of their deaths would’ve been statement enough.
If they wanted justice for the violence done to their family, they would acknowledge that Tywin and his goons were the assholes who got there first. Nothing more. They would not be orchestrating another conflict in which other lords will be the assholes who got there first and more soldiers will rape and kill more women and children.
If they really wanted justice for the violence done to their family, they would acknowledge that the Targaryens hurt them more than anyone else. They would acknowledge that Rhaegar treated Elia and the children carelessly and Aerys used them callously. They would acknowledge that Dorne only kept to the royalist side of the war because Elia and the children were held hostage by Aerys-the-Second-Freaking-Targaryen. They certainly would not be trying to restore the Targaryens to power.
There could be a valid case for backing a Targaryen restoration. “Justice” and “vengeance” for the murders of Elia and her children are not that case. Has the text given us any indication of the Martells having taken a hard look at how their family was treated by the Targaryens? I don’t think so. We have Arianne fantasizing about the marriage pact with Viserys, but no sign of anyone taking an honest look at the behavior of Aerys and Rhaegar.
Why would Oberyn try to drum up support for installing King Viserys III in place of Robert Baratheon? I can see why they’d want to oust King Robert; that much makes sense. But how would Viserys seems like a better option? Granted, Oberyn understood that a family is not a monolith, and Viserys at the end of the rebellion was just a little boy and he was not responsible for the actions of his father and brother. But there’s the question: Viserys was just a little boy. What made anyone think he’d be all that much better than his father and brother? They didn’t bother to ask whether he’d be any better because they didn’t stop to acknowledge that his father and brother had been garbage to the Martells.
No, nobody stopped to ask those questions. That’s how we get Arianne thinking Viserys died because he made his sister jealous of his marriage pact with Arianne. I’m sitting here saying, no, princess, Daenerys was not jealous of you. She didn’t know the first thing about you because Viserys never mentioned you. Viserys died because his sister was the only thing he had to offer and he treated her abominably. He was never going to be Lord of the Seven Kingdoms because he was already King of Ain’t Shit Mountain. You dodged a bullet, now move on. Go sneak off to Highgarden and elope with Willas Tyrell.
This is why I’m critical of the Martell-Sands’ quest for “vengeance” and “justice”: they will not admit to themselves what exactly the Targaryen restoration is meant to accomplish. I would respect a Jonos Bracken-style argument of inevitability and pragmatism. They’re not thinking like Jonos Bracken.
What they’re really trying to do is tell a story of the Martells’ place in the realm. In their story, they were the Targaryens’ favorite and that made Tywin Lannister murderously jealous. They had a great thing going with Rhaegar until Tywin came for his revenge.
I’ve said it before: Tywin Lannister was a monster. It is known. That doesn’t mean 1) that everything he ever said and did was wrong, 2) that every single accusation against him was accurate, or 3) that every vendetta against him is righteous.
The accusation of Tywin’s motive for the murders of Elia and the children is not accurate and the vendetta against him is not righteous. It is desperately misguided and self-defeating.
What actually happened was more like the Martell spear was just one more stick the Mad King used to poke Tywin in the eye. Tywin had many, many more reasons to hate the Targaryens than the Martells. He didn’t give a shit about the Martells.
The Martell-Sands’ backing of the Targaryen restoration is effectively their standing up and screaming at the realm, “WE DEMAND TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.” My problem with that is not that I think less of the Martells. It’s the opposite. Who gives a fuck what those jumped-up blond deviant clown-wigs think? The Martells can be awesome regardless of their relationship to the royal family. Their worth does not depend on the Targaryens’ affection or the Lannisters’ enmity. Stop throwing your lives away helping the dragons eat the lions. The dragons do not recognize the value of your sacrifice.
A pretty strong contender for the coveted Westeros' worst person award - you don't want to develop a reputation as "the guy to call if you need a child murdered". Yet weirdly, it's one of his knights who says the possible thesis statement of the series: "by night, all banners look black".
Went with the asoiaf Manticore- basically a weird scorpion instead of the spiny lion chimera thing. Easier to paint, if nothing else. Not in love with my paint job here, but his face is satisfyingly smug and slappable.
