scientists that are anti cap are wrong? I thought their thing was science and facts
Scientists are susceptible to bias, just like any human being is. And unfortunately there are lobbyists who perform as scientists who publish papers through “pay to play” journals or journals that aren’t informed enough about cetacean welfare to provide appropriate peer review.
And if these scientists are forced to actually defend their papers, they get upset and say that they’re being “silenced”.
You can see the peer reviews here:
View the review history for An update on captive cetacean welfare
These reviewers are all independently picking up on excessive self-citation, misinterpretation of the data of the papers that suggest positive welfare and also just blatantly incorrect citations, claiming a paper is supporting them, but it doing the opposite. It’s just. Obvious that these people are not interested in doing science, they want to perform science and make it fit a specific narrative. They then will use these papers to lobby governments and promote their non-existent sea sanctuary.
Science is not a monolith - and cetacean science consists of a vast amount of scientists all collecting data in their respective fields. And if a paper is published that is so obviously biased, it will be called out. This paper breaks down yet another Marino et al’s paper:
Reliable scientific knowledge is crucial for informing legislative, regulatory, and policy decisions in a variety of areas. To that end, sci
The thing is. These “performer scientists” will complain that they can’t get the data because the facilities won’t let them in. Because… yeah. They aren’t behaving like scientists - they haven’t published data on wild or captive cetaceans in years. They have shown zero curiosity or interest in learning and have been actively hostile to the entire industry (but they also want these same industry professionals to work in their non-existent “sanctuary”). Most of them are also not associated with any university or seem involved in academia beyond publishing lobby papers.
They have deliberately misrepresented and manipulated information to suit their narrative. They are not interested in objective science and data collection. That’s not how you do science.
(Also, funnily enough, a lot of these “scientists” are anti vaxxers now, so go figure)
There are wild cetacean scientists that are doing field work, collecting data and publishing papers, who are anti cap. And that’s fine. I would argue that studying wild orca doesn’t give them the qualifications to assess orca welfare in human care. They’re not doing detailed behaviour observations and creating time budgets. They don’t have access to these animals’ veterinary records. Field work is very different to studying welfare in a controlled environment. And it is difficult to compare the lives of wild orcas to captive orcas, as they have adapted to very different environments and deal with very different stressors.
There’s actually a project ongoing through the Dolphin Communication Project that is comparing orca behaviour in human care (at Loro Parque) to wild orcas behaviour, which should be interesting to see!
Anyway
Scientific fields, especially as specialised as cetacean welfare, are not monoliths. Just because you see a headline that says “orca scientists says orca captivity bad”, doesn’t mean every orca scientist supports this assertion. It’s likely a paper that got picked up by the media for its “click-bait” and any critique or concerns of the paper were ignored.
There is a steadily growing body of data supported research regarding cetacean welfare - measuring it objectively, determining positive vs negative welfare ect. But I have yet to see any of these anti cap scientists actually engage in that work or be interested in the lives of these animals beyond their own personal perceptions and biases.
I am sick and tired of people making laws that we KNOW results in the death of captive cetaceans (looking at you France) and saying it's good and science based just because they watched Blackfish one fucking time.
THERE IS NO CONSERVATION WITHOUT PROFIT IN THIS STUPID FUCKING SOCIETY AND THERE IS NO PROFIT WITHOUT COMMERCIAL USE.
18 MONTHS IS NOT ENOUGH TO TRANSITION TO A FUNCTIONING FUCKING SEA PEN.
Why cetaceans? Why not other "large, intelligent" animals like elephants, or captive primates? It's because they don't actually care. They want to say they did something without actually doing something.
They don't do real research, they watch anti SeaWorld video essays on Youtube and call it a fucking day.
How many times do we have to say it for get through your thick fucking skulls?
I have tried---I have tried so fucking hard to remain calm and respectful, but there is only so much that I can give.
When horses end up with severe leg/hip injuries, they are almost always put to sleep. The odds of recovering full mobility from such injuries are slim and the odds of reinjury are high, so even if the horse is perfectly healthy in all other aspects, it is generally recognized to be more humane to put them down than to keep them alive just to live the rest of their lives limping around a small paddock or stall. A life for a horse in which s/he cannot gallop, leap, explore and play is no life at all. Why not apply the same logic to cetaceans? A life for a cetacean in which they can’t dive hundreds of meters, make meaningful autonomous choices (“should I play with the rubber ball or the puzzle feeder today?” is not a meaningful choice; research has shown that autonomy is crucial for animal welfare), echolocate and experience the rich biodiversity of the ocean is no life. I really don’t understand why it’s so horrible to think it more humane to euthanize a confused and sick orca calf if there is no chance of rehab and release than to take her/him permanently into captivity. It’s not disparaging or hateful to cetacean trainers to say so—I know they care about animals—it’s simply a logical ethical stance. Instead of searching in vain for orca conservation organizations that aren’t “radically anti-captivity”, maybe pro-caps should look inwards and ask themselves why all the major orca organizations (Center for Whale Research, Orca Behavior Institute, OrcaLab, Wild Orca, Orca Conservancy, Far East Russia Orca Project, etc.) as well as some cetacean organizations (ex. Whale and Dolphin Conservation, Cetacean Society International) oppose captivity. Is it because all of these esteemed groups, which if you look them up are all staffed by credentialed scientists, have been duped by the “animal rights agenda”, or could it be because maybe, just maybe, they know what they’re talking about? If captive orcas are so different from wild ones that wild orca biologists have no credibility to speak about their welfare, then that’s a clear indictment of captivity already.
Hi. I'm sorry for not answering right away, I was still at my externship when I got your ask, and I wanted to be able to sit down and give you a proper answer. So unfortunately, I don't think what I say will satisfy you. I don't expect to change your mind, nor is that my goal here. I only want to explain why I believe the way I do, so that you or others reading this can at least understand that it's not a position I take lightly, nor do I think it's infallible.
(Long post below the cut):
To start off, as an (almost) veterinarian, there are absolutely plenty of circumstances where I find euthanasia to be the correct decision. Euthanasia is our final gift to our patients, a swift and painless death in the face of prolonged suffering or poor quality of life. A large dog with debilitating osteoarthritis. A cat with terminal lymphoma. A down cow. A raptor with an amputated leg. Or like you mentioned, a horse with a fractured hip. These animals would live in a constant state of pain that they don't understand, and death can rightly be considered a kindness to them.
But an otherwise healthy orca calf? I would consider that a false equivalence. I agree that life in the wild should be prioritized whenever possible, and that captive orcas lead very different lives than their wild counterparts. But if that orca cannot return to the wild (orphaned and unable to be reunited with its pod, habituated to humans, non-painful disability such as deafness), and there is a facility willing to take it on, I do not think euthanasia is an appropriate option. In human care, that calf can still swim, breach, and dive, even if not to the same depths as the ocean (it's also worth noting that these are all costly behavior energetically and are not performed for no reason). It can still socialize and form family bonds with an adopted pod of whales. It can still (theoretically) mate and rear calves. It can still engage its big brain in problem-solving through training and enrichment in the place of hunting. And as a bonus, it will never go hungry and has access to veterinary care if ill or injured.
This is not a wild life. This is not the same life they would've, or should've known. A pool, no matter how well-appointed, is not the ocean, and we should not claim they're comparable. But I don't think it's a fate worse than death. I truly don't. But if it is... if freedom really is worth more than life, then all captive whales need to be euthanized. Even in a sea pen setting, they will not be free. They will not choose their food, their companions, their enrichment, their comings and goings. Those choices will still be made on their behalf by caregivers, and they will still have pretty much the same levels of autonomy as in their tank habitat. They will still be captive. (While some people do advocate for this, I don't think it's a popular outlook. Even SOS Dolfijn, a historically anti-cap organization, recently announced plans to build an aqauarium as a permanent home for non-releasable cetaceans rather than continuing to euthanize them).
Speaking of autonomy, yes, it is very important. But I truly don't think the orcas are distressed by the lack of meaning in choosing between enrichment devices. I think that's why we disagree on this topic... we have different worldviews. We both see orcas as beautiful, intelligent creatures, but I do not see them as people. They are animals, and for all their complexity, I interpret their behavior the same way I do any other species... they are motivated by food, reproduction, and (since they're highly social) companionship. Because of that, I still think we can give them a good life in human care, which is why it frustrates me to see the zoo community throw up their hands and give up rather than trying to improve our current less-than-ideal setups (*shakes my fist at the Blue World project*).
Now, I don't think it's wrong to be emotional about animals. I most definitely am! And it's very clear to me you love orcas and care about their wellbeing deeply. I admire that about you, and I appreciate your passion.
On to the next point... in the cetacean world, I've found that there is an unfortunate divide between researchers and caregivers who work with cetaceans in human care and those who study them exclusively in the wild. And that schism far predates the Blackfish era. Most of those organizations you listed are indeed legitimate, and I fully support their vital work and encourage others to do the same. A few of them, though, share things like this:
I think you can understand why this hurts me. And it's a lie. I've now interned at three aquariums (two of them AZA-accredited) that house various species of cetacean, and it's impossible for me to reconcile what I know and have seen to be true and what Whale and Dolphin Conservation wants the public to believe: that these unbelievably loved, vivacious animals are drugged and tortured by their greedy captors. It's not true, and I do not appreciate WDC for spreading this creepy artwork around. Nor do I think that fighting captivity is a beneficial allocation of resources when there is an overwhelming number of genuine threats to the survival of wild cetaceans.
Anyway, back to the scientists. Personally, I don't consider researchers who work exclusively with wild orcas to be either superior or inferior to those who work with captive whales. And sometimes I wonder how much of their position is a self-fulfilling prophecy: if someone opposes captivity on moral grounds, they won't work with captive whales, so they'll never get to know what their lives and care are like beyond maybe a single tour of the park or memories of how things were done in the 1960s (like Dr. Spong, who worked with some of the very first captive orcas at the Vancouver Aquarium).
I also don't think it diminishes the expertise of wildlife biologists to say that they are not experts on husbandry, training, or medical care... those are very different fields, and ideally, they should all inform each other. And of course, there are folks who work with both wild and captive whales. One of the reasons I linked SR3 in my previous post is they have staff with backgrounds in both managed care and research of free-ranging populations (I actually have no idea what the organization's official stance on captivity is, it's not something they address).
Maybe I'm wrong. I try my best to keep an open mind, but I know I'm also swayed by my own preconceptions and experiences. When I started this blog in December 2020, I was a first year vet student with minimal actual experience outside of domestic animals and some herps, and had only recently adopted the pro-captivity outlook. Now, I'm much more deeply involved in the zoo and aquarium world. These are people I know and respect, people who have written me letters of recommendation and comment on my Facebook posts, people I've had dinner with and showed up with after hours to care for a sick animal. And I recognize that biases me. The zoo world is often resistant to change, especially folks who have been in the industry for many years. And that doesn't do anyone, especially the animals, any good. I don't want to get stuck in an echo chamber, so I make it a point to read anti-captivity literature, even when it upsets me. If there is anything I can do to improve their lives, I want to learn about it, regardless of the source.
I try to adapt to new information. For example, in the past few months alone, I've become a lot more favorable toward the idea of sea pen habitats. My concerns about "sanctuaries" are more logisitical* and philosophical** rather than the idea that artifical habitats are inherently superior to pen habitats (they're not), especially when plenty of traditional facilites already make great use of ocean pens or enclosed lagoons. There are pros and cons to both, and a lot of it depends on the needs of the individual animals.
*funding; maintenance; lack of land-based backup pools and fully-equipped medical facilities; introducing immunologically naive animals to pollutants and infectious agents; disruptions to native wildlife; staffing activists and wildlife biologists rather than those with relevant husbandry experience
**villainizing aquariums; promoting the project as a "release to freedom" to the public when it's really another form of captivity; claiming the animals' lives will be "natural" when they will still require training, artificial enrichment, contraceptives, and social management if done correctly; downplaying or completely denying the very real risks of such a transition and insisting the animals will automatically be better off when Little White and Little Grey have proved that's not the case
If you made it to the bottom, thanks for reading. I wish all the best for you, and I mean that genuinely ❤️ even if we disagree, I hope you can appreciate our shared love for these animals and a desire for their wellbeing. Best of luck in all your endeavors!
Fisheries Minister Joanne Thompson says approving the request would mean a continued life in captivity and a return to public entertainment
Twenty whales — one killer whale and 19 belugas — have died at the Niagara Falls, Ont., tourist attraction since 2019, according to a database created by The Canadian Press based on internal documents and official statements.
"To approve the request would have meant a continued life in captivity and a return to public entertainment," Thompson said in a statement.
…
"All whales belong in the ocean, not in tanks for entertainment purposes."
Going to a demonstration to free dolphins from a zoo now, got ditched again cause people don't like this dolphin i think. Getting ditched always lately.
Will still go fight for the dolphins, brought orca plushie tilikum with me :)
Im a little scared of socially interacting with the humans there, always distressing seeing humans not care about dolphins.
I wish they would know about me being a dolphin, i wish they would hear my voice from the position of a dolphin, if a dolphin fights for other dolphins maybe its more likely to be heard?
Hopefully someday they can swim free in the ocean where they belong. I wish i could join them then.
