you have no idea how often i think about thoros refusing to kiss catelyn. you have no idea how often i think about the first last kiss thoros gives beric, a kiss that didn’t serve any purpose at all save to say i love you. thoros not being able to let beric go and resurrecting him again and again, against his will, until it becomes a kiss more akin to violence than to love. i can’t get the image of thoros taking beric’s body out of sight to kiss him where no one else could see after sandor’s trial by combat. their overarching story is not subtle in how it mirrors frankenstein’s but it’s also leans very heavily on the “true love’s kiss” element. it’s one of the most openly queer relationships in asoiaf and people don’t… talk about it. thoros had given others the last kiss “but never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open”. that’s snow white. that’s the sleeping beauty. that’s a love story.
the main and frankly only reason thoros hasn’t given up on the brotherhood despite understanding that the path lady stoneheart treks is a treacherous one is because of beric. because thoros refused him and beric paid the price. lady stoneheart is beric dondarrion’s ghost, too, in more ways than one.
I am not criticizing your fics in anyway. It is a fanfiction we are allowed to have fun and I love them. But it is really jarring to see people actively rooting for targcest in Canon like how do you read f&b and come to the conclusion that incest is healthy in anyway? Jaehaerys possibly the best targ king and aegon iv the worst targ king(besides aerys ii) both used their sister-wives as a broodmare. Jaehaerys not letting Alysanne rest when she was 44? And impregnating her using their mother who died in childbirth as an example and aegon iv not annuling his marriage with naerys even after daeron and difficult pregnancies.
Naerys: I have done my duty by you, and given you an heir. I beg you, let us live henceforth as brother and sister.Aegon: That is what we are doing.
They even try to bring up Alyssa and baelon's happy marriage as an excuse like they weren't groomed to like each other as children with Jaehaerys trying to do the same with vaegon saying that daella would be his Alysanne.
Aerion saying that he would like sisters to marry while threatening to castrate aegon v. Viserys iii trying to take dany's virginity. All this boiles down to targ men growing up feeling entitled to their sister's bodies.
And don't make me mention daemon and Rhaenyra like that man groomed his niece since she was a child and people want me to believe they were in love.
Targ fans have this weird obsession with blood purity like what do you mean by true Targaryen? About not dirtying their blood with andals (hightowers). Hotd made the targ fans into blood purists by trying to strip targtowers of their Targaryen traits. Even going as far to say GRRM likes targcest...
Okay, imma put my academic hat on for this, and finally use my useless degree for smth 🤣 (so excuse if the response sounds cold and analytical)
It's the transgressive element. People enjoy the taboo, stepping out of the norm of what's prescribed. Incest is one such taboo, and seeing it in fiction represents a break from the ordinary. It's fantasy, a made-up scenario designed specifically to allow the reader control over the situation to experience said taboo, while having the freedom to define the interaction and disengage at any time.
Something comparable is why do people enjoy reading about murder when murder is obviously wrong. Dark topics have always been a point of fascination and they're frequently enjoyed BECAUSE of said dark elements, not in spite of them. This is because the impropriety gives the story an element of excitement, novel darkness that's usually kept hidden, or sidelined. (See the insane popularity of dark romance as a genre)
With that being said, incest in ASOIAF is complicated. George's stance on it is difficult to gauge cause we don't have access to his head to say for sure, so it all boils down to speculation ie using the text and his comments to determine where he stands (and this isn't always a fruitful exercise because he frequently describes relationships the fandom sees as bad, as romantic. The man still says 13yo Dany's wedding night was a 'seduction')
I personally think its impossible to separate the portrayal of incest from the history it was inspired by and inhabits.
What do I mean by this? So, in real world history, incest has an extremely complicated role. On the one hand, its explicitly framed as a taboo, this horrible thing that you're not supposed to do, in the same vein as murder and cannibalism. But on the other hand, history is riddled with examples where incest was literally institutionalized and even romanticized.
The Egyptian pharaohs, Hawaiian and Incan nobility practiced incest. European royalty also did it, with some couples like Queen Victoria and King Albert being pushed as the ultimate example of a love story, even though they were cousins, and their blood relation likely contributed to their lineage being riddled with hemophilia. And if you read any literature from say the Regency or Victorian era, it's normal to see incest romanticized usually between cousins or adopted siblings (Wuthering Heights, anyone?). Romantic poets are famous for doing this, representing incest as the ultimate example of intimacy, intense emotional and spiritual passion and rebellion against social norms.
And this contradictory messaging translates to ASOIAF, because it's so deeply enmeshed with its historical inspiration. This is why for every bad incestuous marriage, you also see examples of romanticized incestuous couples and incest treated as a love story.
Aegon/Rhaenys, Daenerys/Daemon Blackfyre (confirmed love story), Jaehaerys II/ Shaera, Brynden/Shiera Seastar, even Daena the Defiant/Aegon IV (whom she chose herself to father her child) Naerys/Aemon (not confirmed, yet the book deliberately injects romantic undertones into the relationship). And beyond them, you have examples of incest in broader Westeros which is also normalized, but fans frequently forget cause its second degree (Ned's parents were first cousins, as were Joanna Lannister and Tywin, and their marriage was by all accounts described as positive, despite Tywin being a horrendous person). Even Jaehaerys and Alysanne were described as a loving close couple by Martin, and his original intention when crafting the main ASOIAF storyline was to make Jon and Arya an endgame couple.
So GRRM's personal feelings aside, the track record is extremely spotty. And, even for the listed examples of bad incestuous marriages, you have to wonder is this a critique of incest specifically? Or is it a broader critique of feudalism, patriarchy, women's subjugation, the institution of arranged marriages, and power structures hinging on male primogeniture, which allow abuse, physical, sexual, emotional and reproductive? Because we see the described abuse crop up in relationships that aren't incestuous too, like Robert/Cersei, Rogar/Alyssa Velaryon, Maegor and his wives bar Rhaena, Ironrod and his 4 unfortunate wives, the last of whom he supposedly 'bred to exhaustion'.
On the other side of the coin, the lack of autonomy pressures women into pursuing men, in a bid to secure their own status, and potentially gain a sliver of power for themselves. Remember that Rhae too tried to ply Egg with a love potion so that he would pick her over Daella, and Viserra attempted to seduce Baelon after Alyssa died to become his Queen and circumvent her arranged match.
So all these factors put together make it hard to definitively say yeah, GRRM is specifically critiquing incest. My reading is that he's more so presenting it in its historical context (which primes fans to accept it as a natural part of the universe), and is mostly spotlighting the insular nature of feudal, patriarchal power, in which incest is a feature, and often functions as a metaphor for the system's self destructive nature.
To put it simply, why do feudal houses do incest? To concentrate power in their limited circle. The Targs are most extreme example, because they represent the apex, the top of the pyramid—so by virtue of them having the most power, they have to resort to extremes to maintain it. Other feudal houses are not as incentivized but they too fall into the same insular cycle. The Starks regularly married cousins, and uncle/niece twice. They made concerted efforts to not marry non-First men houses, and even Robb justified his marriage to Jeyne Westerling by calling on her noble, first men lineage.
It's a closed loop, where the nobility essentially have to cannibalize themselves to preserve their position in the hierarchy, and ultimately fail, because the foundation is extremely fragile (what happens when there's no sisters to marry? What happens when a disgruntled younger brother is not satisfied that he's not getting anything? What happens when you don't have a male heir to inherit? The answer is war, where the common people suffer the most)
And blood purity is heavily tied into this, because it's an inextricable part of feudal hierarchy. Because in order to justify certain people having rights to land and titles, you need to use exceptionalist rhetoric to distinguish them from the common man. Which is in line with how real world feudalism worked, and why the upper classes called themselves bluebloods, or often cast themselves as gods on earth or descended from divinity.
But this is lost on some fans, and I kinda blame the shows for this. Both House of the Dragon and GOT dumbed down and gamified the story significantly and made supporting a particular House or side akin to supporting your favorite football team.
This fostered an "us vs them" tribal mentality in the fandom, where one side feels comfortable critiquing another for something, while excusing or outright ignoring that same thing in their side. Like you can't have nuanced discussions, because certain subsects of fandom will see it as baseless hate being thrown at 'their side' and will rush to defend them as the ontological good guys, while casting the others as pure eeeeevil that must be vanquished.
Which yes, leads to a LOT uncomfortable arguments over who's blood entitles them more to pointy chair, or just life in general. And I've seen this in TG, who virulently despise Rhaenyra's boys, and call them filthy bastards who don't deserve to live because they will never be legitimate Targs, and TB who have a hateboner for Alicent's kids cause their mom is a Hightower. And nobody seemingly sees the irony in any of this, they don't understand that they're unironically parroting in universe blood supremacy shit that is literally the source of most of the misery in the books (while also doing a "pot calls kettle black")
So... in conclusion, the books are complicated, as is the theme of incest. I don't think it can be divorced from its historical inspiration, which is why it lends itself to romanticization. In the same way you can read Wuthering Heights and recognize the marriage between young Cathy and Hareton as romantic, a symbolic break from generational trauma toward a future of healing, despite the fact its cousin incest, the same can be done here. But it's also important to recognize this inspiration, and not fall into the trap of taking certain elements of the book at face value, and mindlessly and uncritically regurgitating them to score imaginary points for your team.
TLDR: I'm fucking tired, ASOIAF incest complicated, blood purity bad, stop being shitty to other fans you disagree with on the internet.
Classism is so baked into the culture of asoiaf that Theon frequently thinks about how he didn't kill Bran and Rickon as a way to absolve himself. But the other half of that sentence is that he only killed some boys who were just the Miller's boys.
He still killed little boys, but they don't count. They don't matter. He doesn't bother to know their names. Or their father's name. Or their mother's name, despite having used his rank to get her in bed.
None of that ever shows up in his guilt spirals. He only thinks about his crimes against House Stark, a high ranking family.
A Psychoanalysis of Otto and Alicent's Relationship
Otto and Alicent don't have the average father-daughter relationship you'd expect, even by Westerosi standards. Unlike Viserys and Rhaenyra, who appear to have a relationship of love and trust, Otto and Alicent's relationship is dysfunctional by all means, toxic, and twisted.
(1) It seems to me that even though Otto loves Alicent, he doesn’t love her as a daughter in the traditional sense. He values her as an extension of himself: she’s both his pawn and his proof of competence. His own making. Something to be proud of because he constructed it. Alicent’s worth in his eyes seems directly tied to how well she performs as the vessel of House Hightower’s ambition. Every conversation they have circles back to what she can do for “the family,” “the realm,” “her duty.” (This reminds me of Tywin Lannister; they are both highly ambitious and devoted to their House.) As a result, Otto showers his daughter with conditional affection, whereupon Alicent learns that love and approval are earned through self-denial and compliance, not through existing as her own person. This explains why, when pressured to marry Viserys, she didn't stand up to her father like Rhaenyra did, who was free to be herself and could direct her step any way she chose. Alicent didn't know who she was (until maybe her catharsis by the lake in S2) because she always lived for House Hightower.
(2) Otto wields power over Alicent, and in doing so, he places a subtle emotional burden on her: he makes her responsible for the success and survival of the family, a role that should never fall on a child. Even after she’s Queen, you can feel Otto looming over her like some permanent moral voice whispering: "you must not fail us," which she then replicates in her relationship with Aegon, who comes to accept himself as a failure (the poison drips through). This twisted and toxic dynamic leads to Alicent’s emotional repression. She’s stuck between being an obedient daughter and a woman who never got to figure out her own desires, who never felt comfort and unconditional love from her father, who mourns the loss of her mother and the loss of her girlhood alone.
(3) Especially in S1, Otto has absolute control over Alicent. The scene when Alicent needs to look towards Otto for his approval before giving her favor to Daemon, as well as her constant nail-biting, are indicative of his coercive control over her and the anxiety his criticism and his presence induce. Otto doesn’t come across as overtly abusive in a traditional way: he doesn’t scream or threaten. He uses language like “for your own good,” “what must be done” instead, which creates a sense of coercive control disguised as care. In so doing, he is offering limited choices that aren’t really choices, and he is instilling in Alicent the belief that deviating from his path is not just rebellion, but betrayal.
(4) I believe that Otto and Alicent's relationship can better be understood through the framework of their deep-rooted fear of powerlessness. Alicent is constantly plagued by guilt, by feelings of unworthiness, and by "not being good enough" for her father, the Seven, or her own role as Queen. Otto has been taught to think that to be a nobleman/noblewoman without leverage is to be nothing. Thus, Alicent clings to her role as Queen and mother to heirs as her only form of safety. They are both defined by generational trauma passed down through political ambition.
(5) Otto doesn’t just want Alicent to succeed in controlling the realm and securing the throne for Aegon; he wants to live through her. There’s something dark about how his political legacy relies on her uterus, her children, her choices ("wear one of your mother's dresses"). It’s a distorted dynamic: Alicent doesn’t get to be her own person because her identity is entirely consumed by Otto’s plans. In dictating Alicent's life, Otto is enmeshed with her girlhood, womanhood, and femininity, and Alicent is stripped of any agency in return. This extensive level of regulation is suffocating for Alicent, and by the time she realizes it, the knife has already cut too deep and Alicent is already buried inside the system that Otto has built for her:
"How could I know? I wanted whatever you impressed upon me to want."
I have always thought Tywin’s famous line, “A lion doesn’t concern itself with the opinion of sheep,” is one of his greatest contradictions. The irony is that Tywin spends his entire life utterly consumed by what others think of him. Everything he does, the destruction of Castamere, his obsession with legacy, the way he humiliates and attempts to distance Tyrion, even his fixation on marrying Cersei into the royal family, is driven by reputation and fear of ridicule. The man’s identity depends on maintaining control over how House Lannister is perceived.
What truly underlines his concern is when you consider the source. That is that this obsession is rooted in shame. The memory of his father Tytos being mocked for weakness shapes Tywin more than anything else. His entire philosophy is an overcorrection, an endless attempt to erase laughter and weakness through terror and ‘order’. But that only reveals how deeply he does care about the opinion of others or ‘sheep’. Tywin’s cruelty, his discipline, his lion’s pride are all armour against humiliation.
So when Tywin says a lion does not concern itself with the opinion of sheep, it feels like self deception. The lion does care. Every roar, every act of domination, is just him making sure the sheep never laugh again.
I think one of the main reasons why house targaryen fell (including everything they did wrong) is that they stopped listening to their dreamers. The ones who knew the future, whose warning should have been heeded.
Dreamers were cherished, protected in daenys' time. Aenar or whatever his name was, listened to her and changed both his and his house's fate. It is no coincidence that a dreamer always emerged when house targaryen was ready to burst. When the dragon was already beginning to eat its own tail. When the self destructive tendencies of the dragons were at their precipice.
Heleana was never listened to, often dismissed and never protected from the mental toll that the dreams took on her. In the end she gave into the madness of what her gift was. Because being a dreamer is no small feat. Seeing the future, especially the deaths of ur loved ones and knowing the causes breaks the mind. Particularly when you dont have any support. She did not and house targaryen lost its dragons, crippled in a way they never were before. Not even by maegors actions.
Then comes daeron, he knows what is to come and is not believed or even paid attention to. His murmurs are probably dismissed by maekar and slowly his mind becomes his enemy because maekar is not a gentle parent especially after dyannas death. He gives into drinking, whoring and dies as he probably knew he would. House targaryen at this time was going in the right direction. Baelor and maekar would have made a terrific team and had baelor become king he would have brought forth a legacy that perhaps would have lasted longer than the next 5 decades the dynasty lasted.
Maekar however did not listen or rather house targaryen lost the knowledge on how to protect and decode dragon dreamers and dreams respectively and ultimately what daeron saw happened. Kickstarting the ruin of a dynasty that was never meant to last for as long as it did.
A COMPENDIUM ON LEYTON HIGHTOWER'S CHILDREN & THEIR AGES
Leyton Hightower had ten children in a time span of potentially fifty years. We only know a more narrow time frame of a few of his children (Alerie, Lynesse), while others can span across decades. This is an attempt to narrow down their ages. For that, I'll assume they had their first children no younger than 16. You'll also see some thoughts on their possible mothers, albeit that's just speculation without real basis and just random thoughts I want to mention.
(Names of their spouses have been included for easier overview and later analysis. While two children could have been born in the same year, I disregarded it in favor for visual clarity in the headlines, but the explanation treats it looser.)
THE CHILDREN
Baelor Hightower-Rowan (est. 254-258 AC)
He's Leyton's oldest son and the only indication we have for his age is that he was considered a suitor for Elia Martell, which would make me put him around her age (256-257 AC), perhaps a few years older. A young and pretty lad, as Oberyn describes him, makes me think he's rather close to their age. Additionally, Elia had also found him appealing, so he wouldn't be much older or younger than her. I could stretch his age to maybe 250 AC and a little more. Anything older and I'd imagine Oberyn to have used a different description and for Elia to be less interested.
Baelor: Anywhere 250s AC
Potentially named after Baelor the Blessed, this could be the son of someone with deep religious beliefs, or a royalist — potentially a Targaryen affiliate as a mother?
Malora Hightower (est. 255-260 AC)
Malora is the second oldest, and the only information we have is that she is younger than Baelor and older than Alerie, which can put her anywhere between 251 and 263 AC.
Malora: Anywhere in the 250s up to early 263AC.
The name Malora appears nowhere else. It could possibly have valyrian influences or a lesser known name within Westeros. It could be that due to having very distinctive names, her and Baelor share a mother, while later children might have a different one.
Alerie Hightower-Tyrell (257-260AC)
She's younger than Mace, who was born no earlier than 256 AC, as he's less than 10 years older than Cersei. The comment from Tywin about a younger woman that would outlive Mace implies a bigger age gap, which could be at most eight years. Putting her birth year at the latest possible year of 264 would make her very young (a mother at 12). If she had Willas at 16 at the latest possible date (276 AC), that would place her birth in 260 AC.
I'm not convinced she would have had a child so young. Possibly a GRRM numberism, but it sounds a bit odd. If it did happen, I'd be beyond curious how it came to be. Baelor was courting Elia in 272, Malora also unmarried in this time. No conflict to push a marriage with Leyton's second daughter so early, which makes me suspect she's born a few years before 264.
If Alerie was born in the 250s, it is likely her and her older siblings share a mother. If she were born in the 260s, an appropriate mourning time could have taken place in between, possibly making her the daughter of the second mother.
Alerie: Late 250s to early 260s.
Al– are common Reach names and would fit well with names such as Garth. Marrying the Lord Paramount of the Reach might point at her being the daughter of the first mother, as it would otherwise pass over Malora as a match. Alternatively, a second mother could have attempted to establish herself and her daughter with such a favourable match.
Garth Hightower (258-268 AC)
As we know roughly the age of Lynesse (half of Jorah's age, so around 17 in 289 AC), we can calculate the latest possible date for her older siblings. With her being born around 271-272 AC, and there being three siblings between them, Garth cannot be born any later than 267/268 AC and any earlier than Alerie.
Similar to Alerie, he could be the son of a first or second mother. By far the most "dignified" Reach name to be had. It could be a sign to establish this son and proclaim his possibilities, which might have been an indication for the second mother.
Denyse Hightower-Redwyne (est. 259–269AC)
Due to Lynesse, we can estimate that Denyse was born no later than 268/269 AC and no earlier than Garth. Her son Denys is a squire in 300 AC, which means he could be anywhere between 9 or 18.
Des— names appear with the Redwynes. Desmera, Desmond, Denys. Is it possible she's married a Redwyne cousin or GRRM just like the names combined, as she married Desmond Redwyne, and they had Denys.
Leyla Hightower-Cupps (est. 260–270 AC)
Due to Lynesse, we can estimate that Denyse was born no later than 268/269 AC and no earlier than Denyse.
Leyla reads like a Reach name. Potentially the female version of Leyton?
Alysanne Hightower-Ambrose (est. 261-271 AC)
Due to Lynesse, we can estimate that Denyse was born no later than 268/269 AC and no earlier than Leyla. Alysanne does have a son who is a squire, and seems to be in a similar age to his betrothed Elinor Tyrell, who is around Sansa's age, born in 286 AC. So I'd put her son anywhere between 13 and 18 in 300 AC, putting his birth anywhere between 282 and 287 AC. If Alysanne birthed him at 16, I would personally put her birth year anywhere between 264-271 AC.
The current Lady Bulwer is named Alysanne, born to Jon Bulwer and Victaria Tyrell in 291 AC, which might hint at a possible relation, a shared mother/aunt/grandmother perhaps?
Lynesse Hightower-Mormont (271–272 AC)
The information we have on Lynesse is that she is half the age of Jorah in 289 AC, when he's 35, which would put her around 17, plus minus a few years, depending on how accurate Jorah was with this. She is now residing as head concubine to Tregar Ormollen in Lys. (A lot of ages on this post depend on him being so.)
Assuming there was a break between Alysanne and Lynesse, it could be theorized that Lynesse is the daughter of the third mother. Further removed than Leyla and more unlikely, but could Lynesse be a different female version for Leyton?
Gunthor Hightower-Fossoway Green (est. 272-285AC)
Being younger than Lynesse puts his birth no earlier than 272 AC and being older than Humfrey, no later than 285 AC.
We know of no other Gunthor within the Reach. It might be a name derived from Garth? If him and Humfrey were born in the 270s, it is likely for them to be the children of the last mother before Rhea Florent. If they were born in the latr 280s, they could be her sons, as Rhea's older sister, Melara Florent-Tarly, had her oldest son Samwell Tarly in 283 AC, and Rhea likely would have not had children before then. However, we also never see Sam thinking about Gunthor as a cousin.
Humfrey Hightower (273-285 AC)
In 300 AC, Humfrey is a known knight, which would make him the very least 15 at that point, putting his last possible birth year in 285 AC, and no earlier than Gunthor, earliest in late 272 AC.
The name Humfrey/Humphrey has appeared with Beesburys and Bulwers within the Reach.
This is all just speculation for the fun of it. I'm also currently working on a more thorough breakdown for the possible mothers and different possible sibling dynamics, one reason while some points are a bit wishy washy here, mostly to remember any thoughts I had.
Okay. I know the general consensus is not this, but if Catelyn had been told the truth about Jon from the get go, she would have treated him better. Relatively. Like, she wouldn't have gave him shit for being a bastard or been ice queen bitch stepmother to him, but uh. there would have been other issues. Just think about how having Catelyn aboard the hide-Jon-train would go for one second. For one second. Okay? We are talking about Catelyn fucking Stark nee Tully. And we are also talking about Catelyn fucking Stark nee Tully before the other four kids came along.
Just her baby Robb and Ned and Ned's nephew. (and if you don't think that Ned saving Jon from under Robert's nose on a promise to his sister wouldn't make I-released-the- king-slayer-to-bring-back-my-daughters-Catelyn fall so hard in love with him her head is still ringing fifteen years later you are LYING to yourselves) So think mother gothel. She would have micromanaged the shit out of Jon's life and upbringing. Ned is pretty lax so as security measures go in terms of Jon, but Cat? Winterfell would get turned into FBI headquarters. Vibe checks at the door and retina scanners and Jon and Robb have a praetorian guard on their cradles. Yeah she'd be cool to Jon in public as he grows but in private she's frantically brushing his hair every night looking for whites. Holding him up to the light to check for hints of purple in his eyes.
As they get older she namedrops bastard a lot but secretly actively fosters a relationship between Jon and the other kids because Catelyn-Sansa-will-be-queen-of-the-seven-kingdoms-Stark nee Tully knows about the pact of Ice and Fire and having one of the last Targs bouncing around is tickling the politician in her. That being said she institutes a book ban on Targ history and is always on Ned's ass about them playing dragons. When Arya is gets old enough she makes it a point to put her and Jon next to each other at all times. Jon getting a direwolf are goddammed holy blessing to her. When Robert's dump ass comes to visit she's having a conniption about Jon being recognized and nearly locks his ass in the crypts until he decides of his own free will to sit in the cheap seats before she blows a gasket.
She hates the Wall idea because who the Fuck is going to watch this kid as well as she's been doing for the past fifteen years? WHO? If she had found out about Aemon being up there she's have blown up castle black. Jon, who has had to deal with this shit since attaining spatial awareness tries to get Benjen to let him take his night's watch vows at Winterfell's weirwood. Man wants OUT. He can't deaal with tiger mom ass no more. When he comes to visit Bran she slips and says something cryptic and weirdly affectionate and it puts his ass in a tailspin all the way to the Wall.
Like, I know people think it'd go more downhill if she knew about Jon but why? Boring. Uninspired. Booooo. Get fun with it.
